Pitts cost of ownership

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Hey all, am looking at picking up a Pitts. Anyone have any suggestions for ownership costs etc that I've not budgeted for?

[JUST-local]

A Pitts like all aircraft.

Professionally maintained c of a machine hangared at a regional airport ~ 10K before you put your fuel in.

A permit machine maintained maintained by you/ friends etc. hangared at a small strip ~ 2.5K before you put the fuel in.

This assumes the aircraft needs nothing, have some spare cash they rarely need nothing!

Would probably help if you tell us what you have budgeted for! then we can give more generalisations and opinions on what you have not!

Have fun :ok:

[flybymike]

Luxury....

My professionally maintained Cof A aircraft hangared at a regional airport costs ;

Hangarage £7000pa
Insurance £2600pa
Minimum maintenance costs if nothing goes wrong ( and it always does) £5000

So just under £15000 before we wheel it out of the hangar and put some juice in....:rolleyes:

[Croqueteer]

:ok:My S1c on a PFA permit per anum :- £720 insurance (£15k) hangarage on private strip £600, PFA permit £140, inspector £100. It was a very servicable aircraft and the routine maintainance was minimal, doing it all myself. I imported it from the USA with a 0 houred 0-320 and rebuilt the a/c, so it had new fabric and a known structure. You couldn't get more fun/buck. Go for it.

[foxmoth]

Try here - post #7
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/384644-aerorbatic-group-near-bristol.html

[englishal]

Our Simple SEP CofA one , own hangar at an airfiled with tarmac runway:

Annual: £1800
Insurance: £1400
50 hr: £300
Own Hangar: £1500 (we sublet half to offset cost)

Total: £5000 pa.

[Barcli]

Pitts ? Nah...... get yourself a Christen Eagle - like mine ( which happens to be for sale !!) - more room ,faster, cheaper to run , heater, digital instrumentation , smoke etc.....:ok:

[javelin]

Nicer to look at, easier to land, better for passengers..............

Ahhh, miss ours, should have kept it longer :(

Still, wouldn't have fit into my current strip - 400mtrs.

[M14_P]

Christ you guys have it tough over there. Full cover for our S1S is NZ$1900/yr, hangarage $1500/yr. Thats about $500 pounds!

Definately an advantage to have the machine in the experimental category if possible. I spent 18 months flying a couple of 2 place machine on commercial ops and found out just how pricey they are to maintain to the certified standards. We looked at buying an S2A but in the end went for the single hole option - far more potential to improve it as a competitive aeroplane.

cheers,

[Zulu Alpha]

Christ you guys have it tough over there. Full cover for our S1S is NZ$1900/yr, hangarage $1500/yr. Thats about $500 pounds!

I think that should be £1500 which is about what it costs for an S1C here.

S1Ts and two holers are more expensive

There are a few for sale here

Aircraft+Equipment-for-sale (http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/aircraft+eqpt-for-sale.htm)

ZA

[M14_P]

Zulu, I was meaning NZ dollars which for hangarage, equates to around 500 pounds per year for our machine.

regards,

[M14_P]

By the way, while this thread is near the top. How many Pitts fans/flyers/owners are there here. Always interesting discussing what everyone is up to whether they have projects, or a commercially run machine, aerobatic competitors or display pilots etc.

m14

[stiknruda]

Moi! It is a love affair. Have an S2A currently 2/3rds of the way through a total rebuild - fuselage stripped and repainted, nothing allowed to be bolted to fuse unless it is beautiful!:p

[kevmusic]

I was flown in an S2a as a very new stude and fell in love with the Pitts - but it has to be open cockpit! Trouble is, I can't afford the £30k+ :{

[Pitts2112]

Maybe not you alone, Kev, but there are lots of Pitts in the UK in syndicates. Get three or four other folks together and you've got yourself a Pitts (like, oh, I dunno, this tidy little number I hear is for sale...with an open cockpit option!)

G-BKVP - Pitts Special S-1D - Aircraft for sale (http://sales.flyer.co.uk/G-BKVP)

Pitts2112

[M14_P]

Stiknruda, PICS?! :)
Yep I started off in the S2B but ended up poling round in an A for a company doing adventure flights - had a brief go in the S1 and taht is what I am rebuilding with a mate now. Fantastic value for money, we bought it with the specific intention to compete in it.
One of the A's I fly had the open cockpit setup but now has the fully enclosed canopy - the first one I flew, an S2E was open cockpit, great fun, but we have access to a variety of Tiger Moths on the same airfield so fly them when requiring wind in one's hair! Besides, side slipping with no canopy is bloody drafty!

[M14_P]

Pitts2112,

That is a neat looking D. A bit unusual with the 360 and fix pitch? All of the single hole machines in NZ have the 320 as far as I know.
Bet that machine must be quick.

regards,

m14

[Pitts2112]

Hey, M14,

Interesting about the S-1 configs down there. Most Ds here have 180hp and fixed pitch. Most of the Cs have 160hp and fixed but it's not until you get to the Ts with 200hp that you get into wobbly props.

This particular one runs exceptionally well, partly because the engine was rebuilt very well and partly because of the 63" pitch MT prop. It seems the MTs are superior in almost every respect, but some are more perfect than others. My prop became the defacto demonstrator model here in the UK for a while. I was considering putting it on with velcro because it had been off and on to other airplanes so many times. One mate put it on his S-1S and added 25 mph to the cruise over the finer pitch Hoffman he was running. When a friend tried to order one exactly like mine, the guy at MT said he couldn't guarantee that because, although they're machined to fine tolerances, they're also hand finished, so each one comes out just that little bit differently. It seems I've got a real gem!

Mine'll cruise at 140 mph at 2500 rpm and will get up to 180 mph straight and level. It carries energy very well because of that and I don't have to manage the engine like I would have to with a finer pitch prop. I don't really need to throttle back on downlines unless I'm vertical for more than 1,000 feet or so. For most maneuvers that means the throttle just doesn't need to be touched. That takes the workload down and increases the pure fun factor by a huge margin.

If you can put an electronic ignition on your rebuild, do it. I added the Lighspeed kit last year and it made a noticeable difference to the running of the engine and the climb performance. Lightspeed claim 15-20% increase in hp and fuel economy, so at these fuel prices, it doesn't take too many hours before it's paid for itself. It was a great mod and I'd highly recommend everyone put one on if they can. It was pretty easy to install, too.

So that's my advice for the rebuild - MT prop and Lightspeed electronic ignition. Oh, and install the upper wing ferry tank but use it as the smoke oil tank. That's been a blast, too!

Pitts2112

[stiknruda]

I concur that 2112's D is super fast.

I don't agree with using the top tank for smoke - you will eventually get smoke oil inside the wing but outside of the tank - that oil can not be good for the wood/glue/varnish.

If anyone wanted a super fast S1D in Dulux magnolia white with bronze highlights then G-BKVP is the way ahead!

[Pitts2112]

The key to the top tank as smoke oil tank is to not use diesel and be very careful with filling the tank (or so I was reliably informed the many times I asked about this before doing it).

And the color is stunning, thank you very much!

Pitts2112

[M14_P]

Interesting stuff! I'm not sure what prop is actually on it, but it definately has slightly coarser blades (I am not the engineer in the partnership!).
That is astonishing performance! I will let you know what ours is when it flies, we were thinking it should be good for definately 130mph, but 140 that's impressive.
I see what you mean about keeping your energy. I find with the S2A, with pax, it does make you work for your altitude depending what you are doing of course. The only S1 I flew had quite a fine prop, and it revved like it was posessed, needed to point the nose pretty high to keep the RPM within limits after getting airborne!

Will be interesting to see how ours goes. With the modified Ailerons (increasing the chord right up to the rear spar) it should be good for 300 deg per sec. I am actually not sure what sort of start we are going for, I don't think it's electronic though. Sounds interesting will ask my mate about that.


What's your email I will send ya a few photos.

cheers,

[Pitts2112]

Hi, M14,

Yeah, the aircraft is fantastic and performs brilliantly. I really hate to have to let it go.

Not to turn this into a Pitts building thread, and I'm not a Pitts builder but, after having made several upgrades/mods to mine, I'd offer a couple of things that I would do if I were building another one from scratch:

Definitely go with electronic ignition. I installed the Lightspeed unit, but there are others out there. That's been the most worthwhile mod I've made and improves an already terrific engine.

I'd put a piano hinge down the center of the upper panel between the cabanes. Getting that out for any reason always results in scratching the paint on the cabanes because it's a flex-fit. Putting a piano hinge down the middle would allow it to be unscrewed, folded, and pulled neatly out the front without touching anything.

Put a banana fairing around the cabane structure under the upper wing. Reputedly a place of significant drag. I was going to fashion my own (as none seem to be commercially available for the D wing) but ran out of time.

I'd consider a glass panel for both flight instruments and engine monitoring. Would have to seriously look at the costs and reliability track record, though. It may not look traditional but they're getting so cheap and lightweight now that they must be a truly viable alternative to steam guages. You'd never need the glass panel for aeros but for cross-countries, it might be nice to have the extra attitude and other information. The engine monitoring would allow the electronic ignition to be used to greatest economic effect.

On the subject of instruments, take the stall warner and throw it in the bushes next to the hangar. It's annoying and, since many of your maneuvers will be on the buffet, it becomes truly pointless. I figure any pilot that needs a stall warner has no business being in a Pitts anyway (flame suit on and waiting...).

I don't know how you'd do it but I'd give some serious thought to mounting the instruments in the panel so they can be removed from inside the cockpit. The way the panel is built, you have to virtually dismantle the airplane to get a faulty instrument out. I've never had to do this, mind you, but just thinking about it made my knees quiver.

Install a B&C lightweight alternator. Also a good mod and beats using the lump of iron designed for a '76 Buick. Would do the same with the B&C lightweight starter.

Another engine performance mod I was told would make the biggest difference is getting a well-designed cross-over exhaust. Pricier but, according to the NASA aero engineer/homebuilt race pilot I saw at Oshkosh, that alone gave him an additional 15 mph in the cruise without touching anything else on his Midget Mustang. To me, that means extra horsepower, which is extra energy, which is extra margin in a display or competition routine.

Go to Reno. Spend 3 days talking to the biplane (Pitts) race pilots about the speed mods they've made. Take hundreds of photos. Then I dare you to go back home and NOT tinker heavily with your own machine. It takes great willpower! I had some great ideas, none of which I put into practice, but wanted to. Again, less drag leaves more surplus power available, which means more energy and margin at the edges.

Wear a seat-pack chute if you can. The extra inch or two behind your back makes for nice roominess in the cockpit and distance from the instrument panel.

A mod a friend has made is to cut a large hole in the back panel of the storage space and install a rotating plexiglass cover. This does two things: lets you shine a light through to see down the back for when you've lost your chart and have to recover it from the tailcone (it WILL happen) and also allows for tent poles to be carried. A few of us like to go to camp-out fly-ins and the tent pole/small storage space is always a limiting factor. Clever mod, that one.

Go with an internal antennae for the radio. Stiknruda put one on his S-1 and it made for a nice install and clean airframe. Less drag again, and one less thing to get in the way outside.

Two-piece nosebowl. Makes engine access easier without removing the prop.

Aileron gap seals. I'd install them from the build in some clever permanent fashion. I've tried a bunch of different tape arrangements and they've always blown out on me after only an hour or so. Having the gaps sealed does make a noticeable difference to the roll rate, especially at slow speeds. Very worthwhile.

That's about all I can think of at the moment. Have fun building it and even more fun when you fly it!

Pitts2112

[djpil]

Another engine performance mod I was told would make the biggest difference is getting a well-designed cross-over exhaust.Somewhere in an old issue of Sport Aerobatics is some data on that - along with high compression pistons and cold air induction.
Currently fitting a cross-flow system to our S-2A - the cross-flow was an option.

Friend of mine has an S-1D with 180 hp. I told him not to reduce weight at the front end as with him in it the cg is hugging the aft limit. He has full electrics and a 7 kg battery.

[stiknruda]

On the first S1S I scratch built, I installed a door in the turtledeck bulhead, and put a floor in the aft section and a clear panel in the rear bulkhead. This allowed a lightweight cockpit cover to be permanently stowed there. I did all of the CoG calcs with it in place. It also allowed tent poles, gun barrels, etc to be carried. It was used several times to fly to shoots during the season!

I also installed spring gear but stuck to bungee for the second once I'd worked out how not to lose fingers when changing them. I went down the B&C lightweight starter and alt route, too. Used Airflow Perf injector with purge - I'd not bother with purge again. Sky Dynamics 4:1 megaphone exhaust, too.



On my 2A rebuild I have hi comp pistons and a x-over exhaust. I've not gone electronic ignition but do have a lightweight starter. I've replaced the ally leading edges (or am still in the process..) with plywood as it forms a stronger D section box.

The one job I meant to do but managed to "overlook" was to drill the trailing edge of the port I strut and weld a bushing in there to take the aerobatic sight - the standard Dent-Air aero sight clamping bracket is an eye-sore, draggy and makes sight removal a scratch-guaranteed task. I actually removed the sight and stripped the paint before I realised that it was part of my master plan to mod the strut - then I had no reference marks as to where the sight should be situated. It is a job that can be done one wet weekend when she is back in the air again.

I concur about the cabane fairing and would look to soften the interface between the lower wing and fuse sides with a filleted fairing if I was any good with fibregalss.

I have welded on the brackets that allow the ally fuse sides and belly to continue to the station just aft of the rear seat and incorporated S2C like air vents for the rear as the 2A ones were awful - especially in a UK winter, where I'd tape up the inside!

I've also moved the radio and intercom up into the panel, making the cockpit less cluttered and there fewer things to kick when you climb in a hurry!

I've machined nylon/alumium javelins - the nylon sits over the flying/landing wires and is clamped conventionally. The 3 piece aluminium part is c'sunk set-screw'ed to the nylon male protrusions.

Oh and I've dimpled the panels and used c'sunk 8-32 set screws virtually everywhere.

Stik

[C42]

Not really qualified to comment on costs yet as i have only had my S1 for 2 weeks but whatever the cost is its worth it!! I done 4 hours in it so far and as i had not flown a Pitts before i did not realy know what to expect (you hear all sorts of stories!) but it is the most honest aeroplane i have flown and i love it!

I need to replace my flop tube soon though as the previous owner said its getting stiff, where can i get one? looked on LAS website and some of the Pitts related sites and i cant find one

Cheers

[Zulu Alpha]

Try contacting Mr Pitts: Rob Millinship

Aerographic: specializing in services for the sport-biplane homebuilder, welcome (http://www.aerographic.com/index.html)

Or Aircraft Spruce have them for about $58

ZA

[stiknruda]

C42 - as ZA says speak to Rob. If you cant get hold of him, I can give you the Godrich part numbers and you can have one made up or I can sort one for you.

DO NOT DO what I did a few years ago and have a stiff one (phnaar, phnaar) patterned at a well known hyrdaulics retailer - they just supplied a new stiff one at a silly cost - my current one is straight from the factory.

[C42]

I will talk to Rob, One of the guys at my airfield who has an S1 (EGML Damyns Hall) mentioned his name but i did not get details from him. i will use the contact details from the website and order one.

Cheers

[Bigglesthefrog]

Gentlemen
Whilst we're on the subject of fun aircraft with lots of wings, I don't see a lot of mention of the Stolp Starduster Too, which I think has just got to be one of the best looking sports biplanes around. Check them out and tell me I'm wrong!!
The guys looking for a good deal and a lot of aeroplane for the money seem to have missed this. Barnstormers.com have been listing a number of them from £17K to 22K (on the present rate of exchange) and they are definitely LAA friendly. There are a number of them (imported and British built) on the Brit register, but you don't often see them up for sale in this country.
If anyone in the Cambridgeshire/Suffolk area was getting a group together around one of these, I would definitely be interested. Come to think of it, I may even start one myself :ok:

[Pitts2112]

Well, Biggles, that appears to be a quick way to kill a Pitts discussion. :)

Starduster is a good airplane but it's big, heavy, slow in climb and roll. It's a good all-rounder but it's no Pitts and would probaby cost more to operate in the long run than an S-1. And for anyone interested in competition, I think it'd top out at Standard level, whereas an S-1 could keep going into the next level of Advanced before being outclassed by more modern machines.

Now, where were we on Pitts'?

[stiknruda]

As mentioned on a different thread, i like both the Starduster and the Skybolt.

But tell me if I offered you foie gras at the same price as Spam, how many would plump for Spam?


Pitts is the true path!


My insurance is for £50k hull and £1.5 M TPL. Costs me a tad under a grand a year = £85 a month, I know folk who spend more than that on Sky!!

[tractorpuller]

stiknruda, you mentioned hi comp pistons for your 2A rebuild. We have a 2A, a really old one aswell, with the 360 A1A and are considering hi comp pistons. But we are wondering if it's worth it and if there are any problems doing this with a certified aircraft.

Tips appreciated.

Rgds

tp

[KZ8]

One thing is for sure, a Pitts built in accordance with the plans (or factory built) is a very well sorted aeroplane indeed. Other homebuilts, where many details are left up to the imagination of the builder, can require a lot of fettling to get them right.

Couple of thoughts.

When fitting a new flop tube, make sure it is not too long so that it jams against the rear wall of the tank. Get a bit of welding rod, hook it around the flop tube from the filler neck and make sure it moves freely. Yes, obvious, but...

Adding a B + C starter to a Pitts S-1S built to drawings will necessitate moving the oil cooler, eg a new engine cooling baffle will be required and the oil cooler hoses get close to the nosebowl. Guess how I know! (I've ordered a different starter).

KZ8 (Pitts S1 build project getting there!)

[stiknruda]

Tractorpuller - a noticeable difference in take off perf with 10:1 pistons. How viable as a CofA, dunno. My A is on a permit:ok:

[KZ8]

tp,

I think the high-compression piston mod was pioneered by Dick Demars/Firewall Forward. If they or another company doing the same mods hold an STC for the change on a Pitts S-2A, then that would be a big help, depending where you are based (which country).

I'm not aware of a factory Pitts S2A having the mods in the UK. But at least two of the S2s operating over here as homebuilt aircraft have the mods.

KZ8

[Bigglesthefrog]

Well, Biggles, that appears to be a quick way to kill a Pitts discussion.

Sorry Pitts2112, no death knell intended on the Pitts discussion. In fact I am enjoying it as much as the others, but I just thought I'd put the maggot into the water and see what happened.
I must say I would really like to have a shot in the Pitts one of these days, but if I was to actually buy one it would have to be an S2 as I like to occasionally share the fun with others.
My point in raising the Starduster question was to compare on a level of cost,one fun aeroplane with another. Whilst I accept that the Pitts is in another class with regard to Aeros, the Starduster is a better looking plane and I think that if we compare one two seater (S2) with another (Starduster), the Starduster would win hands down on the question of affordability.

[Pitts2112]

Hey, Biggles,

Good points. It would be interesting to genuinely compare long-term ownership costs between a Starduster and a Pitts. On purchase price, you're probably right that the Starduster would be cheaper, but that's more due to the costs of a homebuilt versus a certified airplane. Same engine as an S-2A, though, so let's assume same fuel burn, I think the operating cost of the Starduster would actually be higher. You'd spend more time climbing for altitude than with an S-2, so you'd actually burn more fuel. Maintenance would be cheaper, though, on the Starduster as it's a homebuilt. On balance, the Starduster is probably a cheaper alternative to an S-2, but you get what you pay for. If it only costs half as much to own, you're still only getting half as much airplane. But it's still a good way to get into the air if an S-2 is beyond the wallet.

Can't agree with the looks, though. The Starduster is one of the ugliest airplanes out there. :(

[tractorpuller]

KZ8 and Stiknruda,

our Pitts is on a normal CofA, german reg.

More power would be nice, but we'll see what our maintenance org. says about it.

Thanks,

tp

[hhobbit]

I fly a CTSW and have had a go at aeros in an Extra 300 LOVED it. Flew RC models for years which clues you in to energy management and stuff. Had a blast pulling 6g loop hammerheads and a few rolls and inverted. Didnt take a feather although I'm mid 50s. Then this:
A chap in Florida has a Factory built Pitts S-1 (C I think) going cheap, so I thought It was built c1973, subsequently modded and therefore permitted, and has languished unused (300 hrs) but hangared. If I sold the CT would I be able to afford it? Would it be neccessary to register it as a homebuilt/permit plane in any european country? I wonder if the running costs would be a killer. I believe its possible to get an STC for Mogas prior to taking ownership.

[KZ8]

hhobit

In terms of the legalities of operating the aircraft, best to talk to SAAC, the homebuilt association in Eire.

In the UK, if factory-built the aircraft would have to be put on a C of A, mods and all. If kit or plans-built, it could go on a Permit to Fly assuming the mods checked out OK. It would not be able to operate on the N-reg permanently, unless the FAA granted it a full C of A.

In terms of cost to run, you will presumably get more for the CT than the asking price for the Pitts (you say it's going for a low price), so you can spend the rest on a bit of training on a 2 seater and some petrol for flying your own machine.

Can you afford it? It would depend entirely on how good the engine is and how good the structure and fabric is. If the engine needs rebuilding for any reason, then budget lots of money (£5-10k). Same for a re-cover. If the modifications carried out are a worry to the CAA/LAA/SAAC, then re-working might be required. Best, if you can, to find a 'stock' aeroplane to drawing.

If the engine, structure and fabric is good, then it is a simple, low cost, aeroplane to maintain on a permit.

There are some good people in Florida who are Pitts savvy, so it would be worth asking one of them to take a look prior to purchase. Jason Newburg and Mike Mays are there somewhere.

The fuel burn issue is debatable, because most flights will be 20 minutes of great joy.

Good luck!

KZ8

[M14_P]

Biggles,

Yeh nice looking machine - I am doing a fella's PPL who is building one locally - with an IO-540 up front. It will be a weapon of mass seduction when it flies!

[Zulu Alpha]

A chap in Florida has a Factory built Pitts S-1 (C I think) going cheap

Don't forget that you will have to add shipping in a container, VAT and insurance as well as packing, reassembly and inspection/registration fees. It might end up cheaper buying one in Europe.

I would also say that homebuilt rules in the US are laxer than the UK (not sure about Ireland) so there may be costs involved in getting it up to the required standard.

It may be a bargain, but check it thoroughly, there's probably a reason why it hasn't been snapped up by someone in the US.

ZA

[M14_P]

There appears to be an abundance of S1C's for sale in the US at the moment, many at very good prices too but as you said, lots of other costs to consider.
There are also many homebuilt S1S's around as well, but I would be pretty sceptical as to how well built they are...

[Bigglesthefrog]

Hey Pitts2112

Can't agree with the looks, though. The Starduster is one of the ugliest airplanes out there.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-10/1324943/Starduster.jpg

Do you think you should've gone to Specsavers?;)

[flybymike]

Specsavers won't appreciate the misspelling....Is a speck saver someone who collects dust?

[Bigglesthefrog]

Thanks for the nudge Mike:ok: