AirFrance English NOT Language of aviation

[MrMutra]

Hello all,

Booked a flight with Air France from Paris, checked in on line, all is well. However, at the gate in Terminal 2F I was prevented from boarding, because I had an emergency exit seat and did not speak NATIVE French.

Air France " do you speak french ?"

Me " no, english, russian, Japanese yes"

Air France person " you must be native french speaking person to sit on the emergency isle."

Me , "but i speak fluent English which is the language of aviation and the signs on board are in English?"

Air France person, " No you must speak Native french on a French reg aircraft, english is NOT the language of aviation "


Can someone explain if this is new EU policy, perhaps a new safety rule ?

Is it policy for all airlines to have Native speaking pax on emergency isle? Alitalia Italian Iberia Spanish etc... ?

What happens when you dont have native speaking pax on board that reg airraft? empty seats ?

Thanks in advance

Mr M

[boardingpass]

Where was the flight to? Was it a domestic flight? Perhaps they wanted to move you for another reason and this was an easy way of moving you.

[INNflight]

No crew or pilot badge with you??? That would have shut that person up pretty fast I'm sure. Ignorant at best.

[Avman]

I would imagine that if this was a seat with extra leg room the check-in agent wanted to give the seat to a friend or staff member. I have never heard of such a regulation or policy. I would have called for a Supervisor and asked them to provide me with written proof of its existence.

[Final 3 Greens]

Does anyone remember a comment on a thread a few months ago, about regs in the US requiring peeps to speak English to sit in the exit seats?

Maybe I'm in my dotage, because I can't find it using the search function

[Moira]

F3G, heard and read the same before, but can't remember where either ...

Edit: would this (http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/315842-emergency-exit-seats.html) be the thread in question?

If the other pax were mainly French speaking, I could imagine they wanted someone with at least some knowledge of French at the emergency exit, so that in case of an evacuation that person would be able to communicate with the other pax in their own language.

However, in that case I would expect them to just ask you to switch places with someone else, in stead of not allowing you to board.

[ExXB]

Isn't that where Gilligan and his shipmates ended up?

[Final 3 Greens]

Moira

Many thanks, you did a better job than me.

The quote was

Quote
"Is speaking English a legal requirement? I very much doubt it."

On a recent internal US flight (Atlanta-PC Florida) the safety card stated that to occupy the emergency exit seats the pax had to know enough English to understand the briefing on the opening of the exits

s37

[CD]

Different Civil Aviation Authorities (CAAs) may have different requirements for the individuals occupying the exit row. In Canada, the language may be either French or English, as we are a bilingual country:

Advisory Circular 705-001 - Bilingual Briefings at Window Emergency Exits (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/managementservices/referencecentre/acs/700/pdf/705-001.pdf)

Generally, many CAAs require air carriers to establish limitations on who may be seated at an exit. These limitations often include the following:

* must be physically capable of using the exit;
* must be capable of understanding the printed and spoken emergency instructions;
* must be able to visually determine if the exit is safe to open;
* must have sufficient mobility, strength and dexterity to reach, operate and stow (or otherwise dispose of) the emergency exit;
* must be able to receive aural information from the crew and to orally communicate that information to other passengers;
* must be of a minimum age (as established by the air operator) to ensure that he/she has the physical, cognitive and sensory capacity to operate an emergency exit;
* must not be responsible for another person as this can hinder the opening of the emergency exit; and
* must not have a condition which might cause them harm by opening the exit.

While I am not familiar with the specific regulatory requirements of the DGAC (http://www.dgac.fr/), it is possibly a regulatory requirement in France for the passenger to speak French, just as it is a requirement in the US for the passenger to speak English...

[flyblue]

CD, you got it right. The reason is that when we are in a situation of stress, we tend to go back to basics, therefore to our own mother tongue or at least a language we are very familiar with. The person near ther emergency exit must be fit for the role of helping the CC in case of emergency with some tasks that involve receiving instruction from the crew and giving directions to the other pax. It is obvious that that kind of exchange is best carried out by people speaking the same language.
English which is the language of aviation
The ICAO rule says that the languages of aviation are English, Spanish, French, Arabic, Russian and Chinese, which can be used if both the persons who communicate speak the same language.

[Final 3 Greens]

Flyblue

What you say makes sense.

I would not wish an non English speaker to be near an exit on an Anglophone flight and its fair enough for Francophones to be placed there on French speaking flights. I speak French to a reasonable conversational degree, but I wouldn't like to have to use it when dealing with an emergency.

I guess the complication is when you get airlines that hire crews who have a variety of mother tongues?

What do they revert to under stress?

[VS-LHRCSA]

I was wondering the same thing F3G. I'm not sure about Air France but I've flown for contract airlines where there would be a number of nationalities among the crew and therefore it was a strict English only policy when on board and in our emergency commands.

That said, we would often do flights where none of the passengers spoke English, or any common language to the crew (eg Hadj flights). I would hate to think what an emergency would be like to deal with in that situation. Saudia 163 springs to mind. I believe language was also an issue with an incident with a Garuda DC10 in Fukuoka in 1996 (but I would need to research that more).

However, using BA as an example, there are also many combinations of mother tongues among the crew and yet, looking back on various emergencies over the years, I don't recall language being an issue.

Overall, I would go as far as to say that with emergency drills and commands, a crew member will go straight to whatever they were taught, so if it was English, then they will go straight to their English shout commands. If these commands are in French, then yes, it would make sense to have French speaking passengers in your door area.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Isn't it why the pax seated on exit seats are given a briefing and asked to read the instructions before take of? In my opinion in an emergency the shouting regardless of language would be sufficient for a person to follow the instructions provided he filled all the criteria required to sit in that seat.

Much like the french approach to many things about themselves, smell of some smelly cheese:p

[Final 3 Greens]

Wannabe Flyer

To give one practical example, if there is a good reason to evacuate on one side only and the peeps on the other side see the sign for evacuation but don't understand its one side only, that could get ugly very quickly.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Final

Point taken, however assuming from the briefing pax get before wheels up the Cabin crew does use a liberal dose of hand signals and does give that briefing in English. I am assuming if someone spoke English which is a common language, they would understand the sign language.

Not buying the argument of Air France if what is said is true.

[VS-LHRCSA]

A lot would depend on the specific exit type as well. Passengers sitting at a self-help exit mid-cabin will not be able to see any cabin crew signals - plus cabin crew will be busy assessing their own door situations.

To be honest, I don't believe there will ever be a perfect combination of language capabilities among the crew and passengers. You just have to be vigilant to ensure that you have the right people at the exits for the conditions on the day. If you ever done a SAGA or Lourdes charter, you'd know what I mean.

I can see why AF would want to ensure a common language exists between the crew and the passengers at the exits and if it happens to be French, then so be it. Doesn't mean I wouldn't find it frustrating though.

[Final 3 Greens]

A lot would depend on the specific exit type as well. Passengers sitting at a self-help exit mid-cabin will not be able to see any cabin crew signals - plus cabin crew will be busy assessing their own door situations.

The cabin viz may be degraded too, e.g. smoke.

[Moira]

if someone spoke English which is a common language

Common? For most aviation professionals, yes. But not for many older passengers, not in many countries in e.g. Southern Europe, and most certainly not for non-native speakers in a panic situation!

[Wannabe Flyer]

Agreed English is not the most widely spoken language. That distinction belongs to the Chinese language which is probably due to the large population.

Still having a hard time trying to understand when was the last time I was on a flight or at an airport where signs were not in English or the crew did not speak English. I think chances on any flight would be that the common language would be English and not Chinese or some other language. :p

Air France person, " No you must speak Native french on a French reg aircraft, english is NOT the language of aviation "

Taking the above statement into consideration please do advise on flights between southern Europe what is the language of communication between ATC and crew, even when they belong to the same nationality?

Do advise would this also mean that ex pat air crew and cabin staff should not be allowed to work national carriers because they do not speak the local language. Also on an airline like Air France I have seen crew from various nationalities in the cabin so does that mean they necessarily speak french or have they been hired to communicate with passengers on routes who do not necessarily understand French?

To me the excuse still smells rotten. :yuk:

[Katamarino]

I'd imagine that English is the most widely spoken language, geographically although not numerically. While more people may speak Chinese, most of them are all in one place, whereas English is the second language of choice for the majority of the world.

Not trying to say its any better than any other language, before anyone gets tetchy :p

[Final 3 Greens]

Taking the above statement into consideration please do advise on flights between southern Europe what is the language of communication between ATC and crew, even when they belong to the same nationality?

Don't go down that road, you may not like the answer.

It is by no means always English, e.g. I've heard French, Italian and Spanish used, even with English speakers on frequency.

[flyblue]

CC employed by AF must all speak French currently. It is a DGAC (French Aviation Authority) rule that all members of a crew (pilots and CC) working for a french airline all speak and understand French. Which makes sense, safety wise.
There are many CC and Pilots who are not French nationals (including yours truly :)) but they all speak French currently and, last but not least, are all trained in French. All the training is indeed done in French, which is the language we use between us when we work. Training includes cabin simulator, during which CC are trained to give pax a briefing and prepare different emergency briefings. All CC are very familiar with the language to be used in case of emergency (there are courses on Crowd Control as well), both in French and English. I hope this answers to your language concerns re CC.

In case of pax to be used as ABP, I think it is clear enough why it is better to chose someone who speaks a language common to crew and the majority of the pax.

FYI, this rule is adopted not only by AF, but by many other airlines, in other coutries (firsthand information).

Taking the above statement into consideration please do advise on flights between southern Europe what is the language of communication between ATC and crew, even when they belong to the same nationality?
Quote from ICAO Annex 10:

"Language to be used:

The air-ground radiotelephony communications shall be conducted in the language normally used by the station on the ground or in the English language.

Note 1.— The language normally used by the station on the ground may not necessarily be the language of the State in which it is located. A common language may be agreed upon regionally as a requirement for stations on the ground in that region.

The English language shall be available, on request from any aircraft station, at all stations on the ground serving designated airports and routes used by international air services.

The languages available at a given station on the ground shall form part of the Aeronautical Information Publications and other published aeronautical information concerning such facilities."Which means that in Spain a Spanish ATC and a Spanish pilot are allowed to speak Spanish, and same in Italy between an Italian ATC and an Italian pilot .

[EC-ILS]

Only last month I sat in the exit row on a Lufthansa A321 and I dont speak German.

[Hunter58]

EC-ILS

On the A321 you would have a FA at the particular exit! Lufthansa crews officially do use English as their languague of communication, so your argument is flawed.

However, try to get an emergency exit in Latin America while not speaking Spanish...

[flyblue]

Only last month I sat in the exit row on a Lufthansa A321 and I dont speak German
I am not familiar with LH rules, but this only would mean that they don't apply the same rules that other airlines do. Every country and airline is free to apply their own rules as long as it stricter than the EU-OPS. As an example, see the CC Licence, or the CC Medical. Some countries have it, others don't.

[Aksai Oiler]

Is this not distrimination under EU rules !! English is one of the official EU languages AF is an EU airline - therefore should not the rules apply to all EU official languages :ugh:

Or is it a case like dealing with Spanish red tape that they ignore EU law

[flyblue]

Is this not distrimination under EU rules
No.When Safety is concerned PCness comes second. And there are human limitations to take into account, as CC cannot be expected to speak every EU language at mother tongue level.
If your reasonment were right, every european airline would have the right to speak its language even with ATC from another country.

[Shack37]

Is this not distrimination under EU rules !! English is one of the official EU languages AF is an EU airline - therefore should not the rules apply to all EU official languages :ugh:


If everyone on board speaks French except me I think I'd prefer not to have the responsability of manning the emergency exit in the face of a group of pax, possibly in a panic, trying to get out and shouting things I don't understand.:=

[Bealzebub]

If you mean discrimination, then it is irrelevant. Discrimination is a fundamental necessity for survival. There are various specific types of discrimination which are unlawful, however the lack of ability to converse in, or understand a foreign language is not one of them. An airline can determine who is suitable to occupy any particular seat as it wishes.

[onboard]

Only last month I sat in the exit row on a Lufthansa A321 and I dont speak German.Hi EC-ILS

All our emergency commands will be given in German and English. If you're sitting at an overwing exit on A346, I will visit you, make sure you speak either language, and give you instructions as to what to do in case of emergency.
If you do not speak German or English, or I have the impression that you will not be able to open the exit, you will be seated somewhere else. :)
As to the A321, I can't say what the procedures are, as I don't currently work on it.

[The SSK]

A pal of mine once flew on an AF flight Strasbourg-Paris and was surprised to discover that the aircraft and crew were from Monarch, and all cabin announcements were in English only.

I'll bet that Chauvin's compatriots who were on board absolutely loved that.

T'was a while ago ...

When did this practice become widespread? Who was the first to adopt it and why? Was it in response to a particular circumstance? It seems not to be an international regulation - did one country legislate for it and others followed. Or did one airline introduce it and others followed, for reasons not entirely associated with safety - to impress the customers, maybe or increase the perceived importance of the CC task?

[con-1988]

cant be that widespread when i flew air france from london city - dublin, as far as i recal, didnt hear one french voice!

[flyblue]

ant be that widespread when i flew air france from london city - dublin, as far as i recal, didnt hear one french voice!Because it was not AF but Cityjet, flying for AF

SSK,
Some safety rules come sometimes from observations and recommendations after incidents/accidents, some from Human Factor studies, and often their reason is not immediately evident to the layman.

In the case of this Safety rule it has been observed (as said in the post above) that in case of emergency, stress can cause situations where people's brains work in economy and go back to basic. It is not something an airline alone has discovered, it is in every Human Factors beginners' manual. Speaking/understanding your language or a language you are very familiar with becomes more difficult, if not impossible.
I wouldn't find it unreasonable to pick people who speak the same language as the crew instead of someone whose language skills we know nothing about.

It seems not to be an international regulation - did one country legislate for it and others followed.I'll quote myself
Every country and airline is free to apply their own rules as long as it stricter than the EU-OPS.In this case, for reasons definitively associated with Safety.
A pal of mine once flew on an AF flight Strasbourg-Paris and was surprised to discover that the aircraft and crew were from Monarch, and all cabin announcements were in English only. It is quite common to hire another airline to operate a flight or several flights instead of canceling. In this case the Safety rules on board are those of the airline whose aircraft is operating the flight.

[con-1988]

:ok: cheers mate, glad u corrected me on that one!

[MidlandDeltic]

"Because it was not AF but Cityjet, flying for AF"

Makes no difference as I undersand it. Recent CC ads for Cityjet here in Ireland required French language.

Sean

[flyblue]

Yes it does make a difference. The company is Irish and not French (even if the owner is AF-KLM Group). The fact is that since it flies to France a lot, French language is required. English is required in, say, Lufthansa, but it still is not a British company with CAA rules, as Cityjet is not under the French DGAC rules, which is what matters.