UK RAF launches Afghan work-up with Merlin helicopters

[Lyneham Lad]

Well, the "RAF Merlins crews unwilling to go to Afghanistan?" was closed, so for all you Merlin supporters, Flight International has just published an update on preparations/training for deployment (maybe old hat to some of you).

The UK Royal Air Force has launched a four-month series of environmental training exercises in the USA intended to prepare crews of its AgustaWestland Merlin HC3/3A (AW101) transport helicopters for deployment to Afghanistan

and

RAF Merlins arrived at the US Navy's El Centro training facility near San Diego, California in late August to participate in Exercise Merlin Vortex. The aircraft were flown to the site using RAF Boeing C-17 strategic transports.

The 15t-class Merlins will be flown initially by crews from the three flights that form the RAF's 78 Sqn, with their training to be focused on "hot and high" operations, dust landings and in honing self-defence procedures, the service says.

Full Article (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/08/27/331516/uk-raf-launches-afghan-work-up-with-merlin-helicopters.html)

[brandnew]

Dear oh dear.

Where do you start?

[Jackonicko]

Where do you start?

Brandnew will chip in with some carefully phrased implication that the ‘junior branch’ of the RAF’s SH component – the immature ‘juvenile’ Merlin force (comprised as it is of SH force rejects and obese 17 stone crewmen) who showed indecent haste in running from Basra, and who exaggerated their minimal contribution in Iraq, are not a patch on the Chinook force, for whom he has a colossal hard on, and he will insist that Merlin force standards need to be dragged up to the level of the Chinook Force….

He differs from Evalu8or, in that he thinks the Merlin is great and it’s the operators who are merely ‘adequate’ air centric shirkers who don’t give a toss about the air land picture. Said Evalu8or will harp on about how the RAF were forced to buy the inadequate and unjustifiable Merlin, and should get rid of it forthwith, that it isn’t a patch on Chinook, that Puma is more useful, etc.

Junglies various will jump on the ‘slag the light blue Merlin bandwagon….’

Nigegilb will continue his ‘Merlin protection is inadequate’ crusade, harping on and on about the operational failings of Britmil FW/RW air presumably in the hope that it will further enhance his political career, and his parasite Chugalug will ra ra noisily. He may or may not start beadwindowing others for repeating stuff that’s already in the public domain.

The Wizard, CompressorStall and Strobin’Purple will mount a restrained and mature defence, but won’t match the willy waving excess of the green (with envy?) Junglie boys, Chinook Primadonnas and Army Air Corps wannabes – none of whom are representative of their commun ities, most of whom can see that the professionalism of the Merlin force matches their own, and appreciate the qualities that Merlin brings to the party.

Seldomfitforpurpose may blaze away with a little more lead in his pencil…..

MGD will be firm but fair, or piss-taking, depending on his mood....

A mod will intervene and close the thread.

[Pontius Navigator]

San Diego, California

four-month series of environmental training exercises

Let's see, December weather, min 10 deg max 19 deg record 28 deg.

Kandahar, February weather, min 11 deg max 18 deg, average 15 deg.

Must say I am surprised but looks like they may be right.

[TheWizard]

Dear oh dear.

Where do you start?

By taking your hat with you WHEN you get summoned to Wilton. Have fun.

[[email protected]]

According to Wiki, El Centro is 50' below sea level.........so minus 50' at plus 19 degrees C......hmmmmmmm not quite the hot and high environmental training I was expecting!! Maybe it's really, really dusty - yes that must be why they didn't go to North Africa instead:)

[barnstormer1968]

"You've been here before":}*

*Your (possibly accurate, but definitely funny) post reminded me of the scene from the film 'liar liar' where Jim Carey picks up his car from the car pound, and he describes his intentions to the car pound worker, who just replies "You've been here before"

One of the funnier thread predictions I've read in a long while.:ok:

[Jackonicko]

"He does know one of the cleaners on 28 sqn so that will suffice."

Are you that cleaner?

[Mick Smith]

And they can pop over to that great holiday spot Big Bear Lake (http://kbhr933.com/current-news/englands-royal-air-force-training-include-stops-big-bear-november/) every day, well five days a week!



England’s Royal Air Force Training to Include Stops in Big Bear Through November

July 30, 2009 by Catherine Sandstrom

If you have seen a giant green helicopter flying over Big Bear Lake this week, that craft is a Merlin, one of 30 in England’s Royal Air Force. The crew of the Merlin has spent the last five years in Iraq and, this month, is stationed in El Centro, California for flight training in preparation of a tour in Afghanistan at year’s end. As FL Lieutenant Sam Fletcher tells KBHR, “It is good crew training with the mountains, the desert, and dust, which is similar to Afghanistan because, in Iraq, it is really flat.” The Royal Air Force crew has been flying from El Centro to Twentynine Palms and, Fletcher adds, “We’re simulating mountains in Twentynine Palms, and are here in Big Bear to refuel.” As the entire fleet of Merlins will be taking part in this training, the flight lieutenant says, “You can expect to see a helicopter up here every week, five days a week, into mid-November.” After being in Iraq and, most recently El Centro, Fletcher raves, “It’s pretty beautiful here, and we’re enjoying cooling off in Big Bear. It looks good from the sky as well—the lake is beautiful. It’s a good R&R spot!”

[TheWizard]

And they can pop over to that great holiday spot Big Bear Lake (http://kbhr933.com/current-news/englands-royal-air-force-training-include-stops-big-bear-november/) every day, well five days a week!
The Royal Air Force crew has been flying from El Centro to Twentynine Palms and, Fletcher adds, “We’re simulating mountains in Twentynine Palms, and are here in Big Bear to refuel.

Yawn! Keep on jumping on the bandwagon. Meanwhile for those who take time to read a little more than the edited highlights;


Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center Twentynine Palms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Air_Ground_Combat_Center_Twentynine_Palms)

The base is currently home to the largest military training area in the nation (and the largest US base in the world), and consequently, the largest training program. The program known as Mojave Viper has become the model of pre-Operation Iraqi Freedom deployment training. The majority of units in the Marine Corps will undergo a month at Mojave Viper before deploying to Iraq or a mixed training venue using the Mountain Warfare Training Center for Afghanistan. Live fire exercises, artillery, tank, and close air support training are used for training, in addition to the sprawling "Combat Town," a 2-acre (8,100 m2) fabricated Middle Eastern village, complete with a mosque, native role-players, an "IED Alley," and other immersive touches.

The terrain is consistent with steeply-sloped mountains and flat valleys running northwest-southeast, with elevations ranging from 1,800 to 4,500 feet (1,400 m) above sea level. The training area is also characterized with ancient lava flows, as well as dry lake beds and arroyos (or wadis) that fill quickly during rain, presenting the danger of powerful floods and washouts that can move armored vehicles. Many abandoned mines dot the terrain, as well as unexploded ordnance and shrapnel, making unauthorized travel in the training areas dangerous.

The climate is described best as arid and upland desert. Summer temperatures can peak at 120° (F) and bottom at 15° in the winter, with an annual average of 67°. Precipitation averages to four inches (102 mm) annually, most often in the fall and winter months.
Twentynine Palms has a reputation within the Marine Corps for its relative desolation and isolation, due to the harsh desert climate and the remote nature of the base.

What a complete waste of time eh?:rolleyes: :ugh:

[REYTERYERERRTJU]

though slightly cowardly to use a pen name Journo

Sorry about that tourist, but those morons at pprune towers are responsible.

Are you that cleaner?

Yes I am. At least it is better than being some wannabe aircrew person, scumbag journo who thinks he knows everything.:ok::ok:

England’s Royal Air Force

I guess Scotland and Wales don't count then. Well the welsh don't anyway.

UK Royal Air Force

Ahh that's better.

[Jackonicko]

"At least it is better than being some wannabe aircrew person, scumbag journo who thinks he knows everything"

Wannabe? Too old. Aircrew person? Not professionally. Journo? Yes. Scumbag? Quite possibly.

But I am also a pilot (amateur), I grew up in an RAF family, I am ex-UAS, and I do have stick time in a range of helos, and I have flown or flown in helicopters from R-22 to Mi-26, (or military from Gazelle to Mi-24) and with air forces from the US to Poland.

None of which means that I know everything, of course, nor have I ever made that claim. But that, coupled with knowing a 'cleaner' or two, does give me an opinion, and I hope that I have the humility to know the limitations of that opinion.

[Jimmy Macintosh]

An aside from the discussion, but could one of the crews fly one out to Miramar? Be nice to see a Merlin again :ok:

[NutLoose]

England’s Royal Air Force Training to Include Stops in Big Bear Through November

July 30, 2009 by Catherine Sandstrom

If you have seen a giant green helicopter flying over Big Bear Lake this week, that craft is a Merlin, one of 30 in England’s Royal Air Force.


Interesting, so how many does the Scottish and Welsh Royal Air Force Have?? :p

And before you say it we know Wales has an RAF Chinook as his family hack ;)

[Yeoman_dai]

With respect Jacko, and I mean that - you do seem to know your stuff, however you do come across as awfully biased agianst FAA/AAC. Although in this particular case, the Merlin crews seem to have made a good choice - i'm sure they did a good job in Iraq, and deserve a decent training ex - Wizard's extract does seem to point to the fact it is a massivly important training area for US forces about to Afghanistan - ALTHOUGH I will make the point that it seems more built around training for the ground elements more than the air elements of the Marine Forces - of all the facilities listed there, it's hard to see what there is specifically for helicopter training they couldn't have got elsewhere... hmm

Fingers crossed that this thread doesn't turn into the utter debacle that the last one was, with caution thrown to the four winds and dirty laundry aired for anyone to see by people who should know better.



Also, as a Welshman, I resent that damn remark in the extract. As if the English don't act overly superior enough as it is:ok:

[L J R]

FACT: it is F**in Hot in Sthn Cal right now - and equally as hot in and around the training areas within a few hours. The Terrain there is also Bl**dy High. There is also a lot of Sand, dust, haze - and hugh tracks of training air and ground space.....You also might get a US ATC to talk to and even US Forces to play with....You might even get to integrate with other UK asset there. Sounds a lot like the Stan to me.

I Don't seem to recall much of that in the UK -all at once.

[Jackonicko]

Yeoman D,

Thanks for that.

I hope that it's clear that I recognise that the RN, RAF and AAC folk I criticise are the exception, not the rule, and that they are NOT:

"representative of their communities, most of whom can see that the professionalism of the Merlin force matches their own, and appreciate the qualities that Merlin brings to the party."

It was also intended as banter.............

[Lyneham Lad]

I put the Flight International article on here just to highlight the latest information on the Merlin's fleet preparation for deployent to AFG. Shortly afterwards I leave for dinner at a friends and come back (admitably not too sober) to find a whole raft of posts that do not necessarily do justice to the situation.

For once, can we not have a reasoned discussion on a subject that does not sink to the level of (for example) the previous closed thread?

Ah well, time for bed.

[Evalu8ter]

Jacko,
At the risk of biting...

You are entirely correct in saying that I continue to remind people of the politically motivated decision to buy the Merlin in 1995. IMHO, such a decision, which forced the MoD to spend more money on less capable helicopters should not just be swept under the carpet.

However, I have been consistant in praising the efforts of the crews (and indeed the platform) in both Bosnia and Iraq. The Merlin has done well in both theatres (to the surprise on many), but it (nor its' crews) have been exposed to the rigours of HERRICK. That's why they are in the US. The Merlin will supplement the force structure in AFG; but ask the Theatre Commander if he'd want 6-8 Merlins or 6-8 extra Chinooks it is obvious what the answer would be. Which brings us neatly back to that decision in 1995....

[Jackonicko]

I suspect that there are circumstances in which a Merlin is a better 'fit' for a given task, and others (probably more of them) where a Chinook is preferable.

It's the contention that a Chinook is always better that strikes me as being silly.

[Occasional Aviator]

In fact, and accepting they are different theatres with different challenges, the Merlin actually ended up as a better fit for MND(SE) than the Chinook - enough internal fuel to get to the very edges of the AOR and hang about a while (up to an hour more than a CH47), a significantly more comfortable and slightly faster ride (as good for CASEVACs as it is for VIPs, and actually taking troops a long way in comfort means they get there in better shape). Of course, there are areas where the CH47 wins, but actually when we looked at what the task actually was and what had been done there were only one or two occasions in the whole time since TELIC1 that it was really necessary to lift a vary big load.

[minigundiplomat]

Jacko,

thanks for making me chuckle after a crap couple of days. Unfortunately I am tired and just about to go on my hols with the little diplomats, but you seem to have the thread summed up.

Nothing to see here, moving along.

[Jackonicko]

Have a very happy holiday, MGD. You deserve it.

[MightyGem]

Yes, mgd, have a good time. Not going to the beach by any chance? :}

[minigundiplomat]

No beach. Sand doesn't seem to excite me these days. Off to France to visit Monsieur Mouse.

Well, the family is. I'm on a merlot buying trip.

[c4aero]

There is no point in harping on about the 1995 decision. Ye Gods, that was 14 years ago! The facts have never been swept under the carpet. The RAF and its customers needed lift; the Op Reqt indicated Chinook as best value for money. All correct. The Government decided that AgustaWestland needed to be safeguarded, arguing as successive governments have done also, that maintaining a rotary manufacturing base in country is vital for national security. I would add that keeping people in jobs in the UK itself saves lives, because if you don't have industry you don't have money to spend on equipment, so people die. Buying off the shelf is not always the answer.
But the real point, surely, is that Merlin has surprised a lot of critics, has complementary capabilities to the admirable Chinook, and for some missions is the platform of choice. Let's all wish the crews and the supporting staff well in Theatre.
Finally, I find despicable some of the intemparate language used by people hiding behind nicknames. Not what I'm used to hearing from aviation afficianados. Can we all grow up, please?

[spindrier]

Occasional Aviator.

Here goes - I am sorry to disagree with you.

Endurance: The Chinnies very big load you mentioned could of course be fuel, which means that her endurance is greatly enhanced, whilst still maintaining a massive internal payload.

Delivering the Troops in Better Shape: WTF??? That is just made up bollox.

VIP: Great! A bit of a waste of cash though and what have the VIPs been traveling in for the last X years?

We are stuck with the poor purchasing decisions of our forefathers. The extra lift will be gratefully received in Afg, but to suggest that buying the Merlin instead of more CH is just more bollox.

Holding the pin; waiting for the bang.....

[Strobin Purple]

Spin

We've already bought them.

It may also be a shock to the system, but King George VI popped his clogs as well! Terrible, but we've got a new Queen!

For any updates on the last 50 yrs, just PM me, I've got Google.

Pip pip

SP

[FireAxe]

I don't post here much but here goes!!!

I agree that the Chinook is a hugely capable aircraft (10 tons etc etc) and political decisions were made to buy the Merlin and not other types, however that doesn't change the facts as they are now and is largely irrelevant as the clock cannot be rolled back.

We have differing types for a range of jobs, yes Chinook can do most but it also has its drawbacks (wait for spindrier to pick himself up of the floor).

Merlin can do many but not all is a given however the point of fatigue whilst flying is very real and relevant and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as 'bollox', this has come from the troops themselves so who are we to argue!

Another drawback of the Chinook is that it can be heard long before arrival whereas other types have a much reduced noise signature which may be of huge advantage in particular circumstances, again this has been commentated favourably on directly by the users.

The advantage of modern design, avionics and materials at times is offset by the complexity and engineering support however the Merlin brings a lot to the party (sigh, yes I know still not as much as the all revered nook!) and hopefully will complement with assets already in place.

Note- I said complement not compete which some seem to confuse.

SH and the differing types are not perfect and we should just play to each others strengths and minimise the weaknesses.

[kbrockman]

Sorry to butt in , just a question from a complete layman when it comes to Helicopters.
Does the Chinook also have the same system like I believe the Merlin has which prevents rotorwash or at least reduces it to an acceptable limit ?
Seems like a usefull thing to have in dusty areas like Afghanistan (and also Iraq I guess).

I know the US' Blackhawks don't use such rotorblades but I think they have some electronic visualization system which actually also can deal with the rotorwash problem.

Any answer would be appreciated, thx in advance.

[Jackonicko]

The Merlin's rotor downwash is such that it produces a 'doughnut' with a pretty clear 'hole' in the middle, and this reduces the risk of 'brownout'.

The Chinook does not produce quite the same effect.

[Evalu8ter]

The Merlin doughnut is a nice marketing ploy, and there are some nice photos to support it. However, at a recent brown-out meeting it was discounted by the crews as having any real impact on the brown-out problem. The Merlin does not have the ideal undercarriage configuration for dust landings, unlike the Sea King, Blackhawk and Chinook (and Wessex!!) where you can plant the tail wheel(s) quite hard in the flare and then level due to the wheel being towards the back of the airframe and the TR being relatively clear. Despite being in Iraq for the past few years the crews have done relatively few dust landings in virgin desert (as the majority of landings were at well-founded sites). This has been recognised and it is one of the reasons why the guys/girls are States-side at the moment getting some practise in. Anybody who knocks the Merlin force for going to the US needs to be put back in their box.

Kbrockman,
Don't believe everything you read in the press. Nobody, to my knowledge, has operationally fielded an electronic visualisation system yet. There are a number of aids - DNVG, FLIR, LLTV and digital flight control systems that can help now and more such as LIDAR, MMR and Synthetic Overlays that are in the experimental phase. The problem is clearing such devices to a high level of safety integrity if you intend to use them to land the cab in reduced visibility.

Fire Axe,
Good points well made. Merlin's achilles heel since ISD has been logistic support and a distinct lack of spares. Over a flat theatre such as Iraq the noise arguement carries some credibility, but not all of the world is a billiard table. My reason for banging on about the '95 decision is that if, and it's a big if, extra money is found for more SH (a chunk of T3 Typhoon money would do the trick....) we need to make the right choice (this time) and buy CH47F not Merlin - though we should buy another 6 Mk3a Merlins to build some resilience into that "mini-fleet".

[HEDP]

Speed may be a red herring too as for most, but not all, circumstances the speed of the escort may be the limiting factor...........

I understand the payload may be not practical for readiness roles either.............

[Modern Elmo]

The Merlin's rotor downwash is such that it produces a 'doughnut' with a pretty clear 'hole' in the middle, and this reduces the risk of 'brownout'.

It is unlikely that that doughnut is unique. All single main rotor helicopters should produce about the same downwash image on ground or sea surface.

The magnitude of the downwash is of course proportional to the amount of momentum the helo's rotor system is imparting to the surrounding air mass. Since your mighty Merlin's rotor probably has faster angular velocity than a Chinooks' rotors, the Merlin might actually stir up more dust in some cases.

Similar remarks apply to the noise of helicopters. If you want to try to make a big sales point out of a Merlin being quieter than an H-47 -- and I expect that the Merlin is less than two decibels quieter -- than you shouldn't object if Sikorsky claims that their S-92 is a better choice for combat search and rescue than the Merlot because the S-92 is a bit smaller and therefore somewhat quieter than your wizardly 'elicopter.


( Doing a Google search for photos of helicopters hovering over water, with downwash images/patterns in the picture. Can anyone help with that? )

[Modern Elmo]

Here's one photo of a Merlin and its downwash pattern at a certain altitude and thrust output. Is that what you call a doughnut pattern? That downwash image is not at all unique to the magical M.

http://navy-matters.beedall.com/images/merlin05.jpg

[Jackonicko]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Jackonicko/Picture2-3.png

Re brownout:

See P.9 of AFRL Rotorcraft Brownout Integrated Solution Study

http://www.dodsbir.net/Sitis/view_pdf.asp?id=REF%20AF093C_137%20Brownout%20Overview.pdf

see also

http://www.vtol.org/vertiflite/brownout.pdf

"If you want to try to make a big sales point out of a Merlin being quieter than an H-47 -- and I expect that the Merlin is less than two decibels quieter -- than you shouldn't object if Sikorsky claims that their S-92 is a better choice for combat search and rescue than the Merlot because the S-92 is a bit smaller and therefore somewhat quieter than your wizardly 'elicopter."

Merlin is considerably quieter than Chinook, and the noise is less directional. A Merlin can fly past my office window and unless it's open, I won't hear it. A Chinook gives me enough warning to go outside and look up and see it pass by - and the sound characteristics are such that you always know exactly which quadrant of sky to look at.

The S-92 is also noisier, in my experience.

[Bill1062]

i am looking to find the 2 crew memeber who where on the merlin overnight fri 28 to sat 29 aug (night before the Big Bear airfest)
would like to talk to them again i am one of the civil air patrol memebers who was talking to them they know who i am i was the older one of us 3

[Occasional Aviator]

Spindrier,

read my post.

Endurance: The Chinnies very big load you mentioned could of course be fuel, which means that her endurance is greatly enhanced.

I said 'internal fuel - ie without a bob tank. Merlin goes longer and further - oh and can put a bob tank in. CH47 goes further if you really want by putting two bobs in, which Merlin can't do. But then you're not

still maintaining a massive internal payload.

Delivering the Troops in Better Shape: WTF??? That is just made up bollox. Not according to the troops I carried. Also you seem to sidestep the point about a smooth ride being good for casevac - the Merlin's pretty damn smooth right up to Vne, so no big decisions about fast n' bumpy versus smooth n' slow. OK so no-one buys a helicopter for VIP, but you're gonna do it.

We are stuck with the poor purchasing decisions of our forefathers. The extra lift will be gratefully received in Afg, but to suggest that buying the Merlin instead of more CH is just more bollox. It was a political buy - get over it. I never suggested buying Merlin instead of CH47.

[minigundiplomat]

I said 'internal fuel - ie without a bob tank. Merlin goes longer and further - oh and can put a bob tank in. CH47 goes further if you really want by putting two bobs in, which Merlin can't do. But then you're not




10200KG of gas.Merlins, see you in the eastern med? No?


Not according to the troops I carried. Also you seem to sidestep the point about a smooth ride being good for casevac -


Assuming the casualty is carrying crampons for the ramp, and as long as the taliban pick their noses whilst you carry out the longest dust landing approach known to modern civilisation.

[29Palms]

MGD - will you also lapse into how big an underslung load you can carry too? It really is quite tiresome.

Yes - the Chinook can carry lots. Yes - the Merlin has a steep ramp. The Merlin has a tail rotor (see AP3456) and its dust landing arrival is not as dramatic as a Chinook (from your limited viewings of it), but all of this will be conquered.

Perhaps you might like to consider that whether you like it or not, the Merlin is deploying to theatre and it does not help the customer if people spend their time knocking a capability before it has arrived.

There is a world outside of Odiham you know.

Standing by for the inevitable... will Brandnew be joining in with his in-depth Merlin knowledge too?

[Jackonicko]

That was a short hol, MGD. I hope it was a good one.

[ProfessionalStudent]

Having worked with Merlin on Ops and MERT in both theatres, I also assumed that the Merlin would be the better Casevac platform.

On speaking to the MERT guys though, this does not seem to be the case (to my surprise). I have yet to talk to a MERT member who would rather have the Merlin as their steed. Among the reasons for this view are more room, better protection, the ability to carry more support elements and more handsome crews (ok, so I made the last bit up...!).

When I raised the issue of smoothness and the ability to work in the cabin, I was informed in no uncertain terms that no-one has failed to get a line in down the back of a Chinook because the vibration was too great.

I look forward to seeing the Merlin guys in theatre and hope they have a safe and smooth transition to the rigours of Afghanistan (and make no mistake, it's whole different ball game out here).

[[email protected]]

What is the ballistic tolerance of the plastic Merlin like? There is a very interesting thread on rotorheads regarding composite structures, their susceptibility to damage and the difficulty of managing repairs.

It seems that the Chinnies are taking rounds on a regular basis but patching aluminium is much easier to do, especially in a battlefield environment.

Once pilots realise they will have to make aggressive landings to minimise threat exposure and brown-out, will the Merlin be man enough to soak up the punishment?

[Low Ball]

There are now 3 pages of effective willy waving – who can carry more pax – who is faster – who throws up the biggest dust cloud and so on. Most of this from aircrew of one or the other type with the odd stirring banter thrown in from the wings by aircrew from other types just to keep the thread amusing – and it is.

What seems to be lost here is the true voice of a user. Bottom line if you want to move heavy loads or lots of people to the same place Chinook is king of the castle. But planners need choice and flexibility. The major drawback of the Chinook is that it cannot be in two or three places at once and it’s also in short supply. Enter the only alternative on offer, the Merlin. Steady in the ranks SK4 drivers and supporters you do a great job too but you have limitations as well. Merlin is COMPLEMENTARY to the aircraft mix and allows planners and Operational Commanders loads more options. By the by I’ve never been in a Merlin, except static at an air show, nor have I flown one so I don’t have an axe to grind. But I have been a Commander of air assets in a Middle Eastern sandy place and I know I’d prefer flexibility and adaptability in what aircraft I had to conduct operations so that you can play to an aircraft’s strong points rather than provide over capacity.

I understand, leaving myself as a target and await incoming if wrong, that from the MERT standpoint Chinook will rattle (bad choice of word perhaps) along at 160knots if in a hurry but all aboard will require dental surgery to replace fillings on arrival. However if serious precision medical work needs to be attended to, and time permits, then 100knots is more comfortable so speed isn’t always an issue on MERT tasks, or is it?

LB

[HEDP]

A major factor on MERT tasks may be the limiting speed of the escort! Therefore speed is not always a bonus....

[andyy]

I suspect that if the Merlin had a folding rotor head and belonged to the CHF then this thread would not exist and most customers would be very happy.

[Occasional Aviator]

Thank you LowBall. I am sticking up for the Merlin because I flew it and I liked it. It is not a Chinook, but that doesn't make it useless - and I particularly second your point that it helps no-one to keep slagging it off, particularly to the customer. I distinctly remember arriving in Iraq and finding that the users there had been told all sorts of doom-and-gloom stories about what we'd never, ever be able to do as well as a Chinook. That took a lot of time and effort to put right and helped no-one.

I'm not saying that a Merlin is ever going to match the Chinook at everything - hardly anything does. However, actually there are some things it does as well, and some it does better. I've flown and/or commanded both types so I'm not speaking from a position of ignorance.

MGD - since when could a Chinook fill up with 10200kg of fuel WITHOUT putting a bob tank in? I'm getting tired of explaining that....

Merlin without bob tank goes further/longer than Chinook without bob tank.

Merlin with bob tank goes about the same as a Chinook with bob tank (smaller tank)

Chinook with 2 bob tanks goes way further than Merlin with one.

Understand now?

[PTC REMF]

Merlin without bob tank goes further/longer than Chinook without bob tank.


Until the Chinook Mk3s get out to theatre.

[minigundiplomat]

MGD - since when could a Chinook fill up with 10200kg of fuel WITHOUT putting a bob tank in? I'm getting tired of explaining that....

Not surprised your tired, that training bra must be a bit tight......

[Occasional Aviator]

Always satisfying when the other party stops arguing and resorts to abuse - makes me think I'm probably right.

[wokawoka]

Easy, 3000 kg internal, 7200 kg underslung load. Why?How do you do it in a Merlin?
However I ll admit you can go far with internals ............cabin empty :E

[minigundiplomat]

Always satisfying when the other party stops arguing and resorts to abuse - makes me think I'm probably right. Yesterday 23:51

Yes, you're right, wrong argument though. You are going to be, for the long haul, in an area the size of Wales, moving sh1t backwards and forwards. Range and endurance counts for very little - it's a hub and spoke operation. Lift, flexibility and versatility is everything.

You may have great range - but where do you think you are going to go? Iran, or the Stan's? I fear you over estimate the role you are about to inherit.

That bra must be really digging in....

[Occasional Aviator]

Fair enough - all I'm saying is that Merlin won't be completely useless....

Lift: not as much as a Chinook, but enough
Flexibility: pretty good at that - yes, the ramp's steep, yes, you can't land it as hard, but it will do the job
Versatility: as above

So no, not a Chinook, but we'll make it work. If you accept that the Chinook force deserves a bit of a rest, who else would you put there? Sea King? Puma? Lynx? Thought not...

And anyway, the training bras are elasticy and not that tight. It's when you start wearing the proper ones that they start to dig in.

[Wholigan]

What do you think then folks? One more complete circle of:

Mine is faster than yours. No it isn't!

Mine goes further than yours. No it doesn't!

Mine carries more than yours. No it doesn't!

Mine is quieter than yours. No it isn't!

Then another moderate post or two saying that we could use both because it would give flexibility which is - after all - the key to air power. Followed by another round of yeah but mine's still faster than his. No it isn't!

Yeah I think one more complete circle then we'll talk about something else, so you'd better get your shots in quickly!

:E

[minigundiplomat]

And anyway, the training bras are elasticy and not that tight. It's when you start wearing the proper ones that they start to dig in.


Ah, humour at long last!

[Occasional Aviator]

Wholigan - fair point. MGD - I think you have been taking me too seriously!

[29Palms]

Chaps

It is good to see that the predictable Chinook banter is till there. This is what this forum is about. The Merlin Force accept that they have a lot to learn and they will do. MGD it only goes wrong when you start believing the banter a little bit too much and the confidence-ability gap breeds arrogance. I note our chum Brandnew has decided to restrict his caustic comments.

There is a lot of work to do, but the aim is for us to fly and fight together and support the customer. If they see us fighting all the time with each other, they will simply dismiss us as RAF to$$ers and that we don't need. Can we accept that Chinooks lift heavy things, vibrate a lot and are battle-tested - Merlins are newer, lift a bit less, smooth and offer other capabilities and we all play our part?

Time for a glass of wine and to put the dog out in the garden.

[TheWizard]

I note our chum Brandnew has decided to restrict his caustic comments.



Or had them restricted for him!:}

[Modern Elmo]

How does a British Chinnok Mk. III compare to a CH-47D?


I have in mind comparing Merlin and CH-47F/MH-47G/HH-47 for the re-opended CSAR competition.


"The CH-47F design features alterations to the airframe structure to reduce the effects of vibration ... "


Upgrades and orders

397 of the US Army CH-47D helicopters are being upgraded to CH-47F standard. The LRIP contract for seven systems was signed in January 2003. Deliveries began in July 2004 and will conclude in 2018.

In December 2003, the US Army ordered seven new CH-46F helicopters to replace those lost in action and, in January 2005, an additional ten new-build CH-47F helicopters. Deliveries began in June 2006 and are scheduled to complete in 2008. In January 2007, the US Army ordered 16 new and nine remanufactured CH-47F with options on 22 new and 19 remanufactured helicopters.

The CH-46F was approved for full-rate production and entered operational service in August 2007. In February 2008, the US Army ordered another 11 new-build helicopters, bringing the number of new CH-47F ordered to 59.

In August 2008, Boeing received a five-year contract from the US Army for 191 CH-47F helicopters, 109 new-build and 72 remanufactured.

...

In November 2006, a version of the MH-47G, the HH-47, was selected for the USAF combat search and rescue (CSAR-X) requirement for 141 new helicopters to replace the HH-60G Pave Hawk helicopters. However, in March 2007, the USAF announced that, following General Accounting Office (GAO) recommendations, it would issue a request for the resubmission of the CSAR-X proposals. In October 2007, the USAF decided to re-open the contest and issued new request for proposals and a contract award was expected in 2008. In December 2008, the USAF again restarted the competition but did not specify a date for contract award.

The CSAR helicopters are primarily to be used for rescuing downed aircrew and isolated troops in combat areas but may also be used for civilian rescue operations such as disaster relief. CSAR-X is scheduled to achieve initial operating capability (IOC) in 2014. Boeing's team includes BAE Systems (digital flight control system), Keystone Helicopter (patient treatment area) and Kaman Aerospace (refueling probe).

...


The CH-47F design features alterations to the airframe structure to reduce the effects of vibration, as well as other structural enhancements to the cockpit, cabin, aft section, pylon and ramp.

The Rockwell Collins digital cockpit is fitted with the common avionics architecture system (CAAS) with improved electrical, avionics and communication systems. CAAS includes: five multi-function displays, moving map display; digital modem; BAE Systems digital advanced flight control system (DAFCS); data transfer system storing preflight and mission data.

The more powerful Honeywell T55-GA-714A engines are fitted with FADEC (full authority digital engine control) and [each] have thrust of 3,529kW (4,733shp). The operating range is increased to 609km (329nm) with mission radius of 370.4km (200nm).

CH-47D/F / MH-47E Chinook Heavy Lift Helicopter - Army Technology (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/chinook/)

[brandnew]

Due to hilarious and rather pathetic "censorship" by oversensitive and precious little darlings, I will refrain from any "caustic" (Aw... Bless...) but truthful comments.

I just hope that the Merlin Force deal with enemy fire a little better than they deal with a little honest criticism! Somehow I doubt it...

On a brighter note the SH propoganda wagon rolls on:

"HOVIS TO ASK 28 (AC) SQN FOR BREAD SLICING ADVICE"

Fly safe, see you all again in HERRICK next year!

[Wholigan]

That should do it then!