Unstabilized approaches

[barit1]

I've experienced two obviously unstabilized VFR approaches as a interested observer - one day, one night.

The first was on ILS to KBOS 04R - but traffic did not clear the runway in time, and the tower offered our DC-9 33L instead. The zigzag was initiated at ~500 ft, giving pax a nice vertical view of the harbor first on the right, then the left side. We didn't roll wings level until over the numbers.

The second was a classic 180 from right downwind at AMM 09R. Again, we weren't wings level (in a L1011) until over the numbers.

Neither would be considered SOP, although as a private pilot I thoroughly enjoyed both rides. These guys obviously enjoyed hand-flying and knew their equipment well. :)

But what would the Chief Pilot say?

[con-pilot]

But what would the Chief Pilot say?

Well a few years ago the Chief Pilot would have said, "great flying, well done."

Today, "The company attorneys want to talk to you."

Besides that, what looks unstable from the passenger cabin is not necessarily unstable from the cockpit view.

[p51guy]

Well done unless you FIU.

[411A]

Well a few years ago the Chief Pilot would have said, "great flying, well done."

Today also, in some companies.
How do I know? I am a Chief Pilot, and our Captains are top-notch oldtimers with superb handling abilities.
Type?
L1011:)

[con-pilot]

Well I'll tell you what 411A, if I, for some strange unknown reason, decided to come out of retirement and start flying again, I'd hit you up for job. ;)


(But, it's not going to happen, coming out of retirement that is.)

[free at last]

411A, Us old timer's have seen it all. I just hope the one's behind us will learn. Other wise the projection from a I-TA from the mid 90's, will come true ,one accident per week. best of luck to all!:)

[MU3001A]

How do I know? I am a Chief Pilot, and our Captains are top-notch oldtimers with superb handling abilities.

I imagine all your captains are chief pilot.

[Intruder]

Part of the job today is to "read & heed" all the various regulations...

I've had several discussions over the past 12 years with my DO, chief pilot and [sub]standards pilot on various issues of performance and legality. With numerous challenges, I have NEVER had one of them take the offer to bring in the POI on our discussion; that offer has ALWAYS resulted in the termination of the discussion AND their challenge to my decision.

If you adhere to the regulations and bring the customers home safely, you will ALWAYS prevail. If you even HINT of dodging the regs, and scrape a bit of metal, you're at risk. Is it worth it?

[gottofly]

for visual approaches- wings level and stabilised by 500ft.

chances r good for a hard landing or scraping metal,then CP will ground u.:ugh:

[Lightning6]

for visual approaches- wings level and stabilised by 500ft.

chances r good for a hard landing or scraping metal,then CP will ground u.:ugh:

If not, you have the option to go around do you not?

[ManaAdaSystem]

I'm not surprised the old "top notch" f@rts are raising their head in this discussion. I've flown with a few up through the years.
Stabilized approaches? Nah, I don't believe in that.
CRM? Worthless cr@p!
Dive & drive is the only way to go!
Speed control? I'm in charge here, and I'll fly the speeds I want to fly.

I'm so happy most of them are part of my company's past. And no, old doesn't equal good. They may have forgotten more than I've ever learned, but some of them have forgotten the rest as well.

Try to roll wings level over the numbers in my aircraft and you will be the radio operator for the rest of the day. And you'll have a trip to the chief pilot afterwards.

The aviation world is progressing, thank God!

[adverse-bump]

unstabilized VFR approaches

The first was on ILS to KBOS 04R

please keep your spotter questions to the spotter forums.

and leave flying real airplanes to real pilots
:ugh:

[Yo767]

ManaAdaSystem, by the sound of your comment, I can see that you've never flown a real aircraft. BORN-IN-AN-AIRBUS generation believe airplanes are flown by computer supported by FCOMs when there is a problem. When things turn bad, they cannot revert to basic flying mode to save the day (AF447).

Yo

[snaproll3480]

Mana, yes, be glad aviation has progressed so that semi skilled button pushers can be aircraft commanders now. I "fly" airbuses now and god help us if something happens and some of these guys have to do something besides "manage."

[hikoushi]

As an aside, some operators' SOPs / OpsSpecs (my own company in particular) do not include wings level below 500 in their stabilized approach criteria. Doing so would render certain straight-in non-precision and / or circling instrument approaches impossible, such as one of our local LDAs that requires a 45 degree heading change during short final after leaving MDA, following an angled VASI. You will be in a bank at 300 feet and possibly below while flying the approach as published. There are several other NPAs like it nearby. Without knowing better, any one of these approaches would certainly appear to be "unstabilized" to the casual observer based on the bank angle; this is not, however, the case.

[ManaAdaSystem]

I fly B-737's, and a few of them have rolled tits up all without the aid of FBW. Is a 737 good enough for you guys? A real aircraft? It does have an autopilot, unfortunately, but it can be disconnected.

Flying stabilized approaches is not type related. It's been proven time and time again, most landing accidents happen after an unstabilized approach. It's common sense to fly stabilized approaches, thats all.

My company says wings level at 300 ft for circling approaches.

[sbguskje]

Sorry for interrupting your mature discussion regarding oldtimers and buttonpushers... I have a question regarding stabilized approach during a circling. Is it necessary to be fully stabilized during the e.g. ILS before breaking to circle (speed, configuration). We have now SOP to go to full landing config and then start retracting flaps from landing to medium and retract the gear. Anyone knows if this is correct? And I would appreciate some reference to back it up..

Ciao

[ManaAdaSystem]

Gear down, Flap 15 is our circling config, straight from Boeing FCTM. That's what we keep until turning base.

[Capn Bloggs]

I have a question regarding stabilized approach during a circling. Is it necessary to be fully stabilized during the e.g. ILS before breaking to circle (speed, configuration). We have now SOP to go to full landing config and then start retracting flaps from landing to medium and retract the gear.
That's crazy. You need to amend your SOPs to cover circling (remove the need for landing flap at 1000ft/checklist if circling). We do as Mana does; Flap 18 and gear down during the instrument approach, then select landing flap on downwind, after which we have to be stable by 400ft AGL (allows a rollout on final after circling at 400ft AGL). We do the Before Landing checklist up to Flap during the inst approach and hold there until on visual downwind, put the flap to landing and finish the CL off.

Wings-level over the numbers is a little too late, 411! :) Otherwise, love ya work. :ok:

[Doors to Automatic]

I remember an approach into STL many years ago aboard a 737-200. We must have been high because the spoilers got monentarily extended about halfway at 300 or so feet causing us to drop rapidly for 50 ft or so. Still touched down a bit deeper than usual but at least still in the TDZ!