Buying a disused aircraft? [Archive]

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Ultranomad

21st Aug 2009, 16:10

Yesterday, I went to Germany to look at a Socata Rallye I was thinking of buying. Now, I am back with very mixed feelings. The situation is as follows:
(++) Upgraded instrumentation: the "sixpack" arranged the standard modern way (as opposed to original Morane), VOR, ADF, GPS, CHT, EGT, manifold pressure gauge, G meter, etc.
(+) The airframe is structurally sound, no corrosion, the paint is very dull but generally intact, except for a few minor scratches.
(+) All airworthiness-related papers, maintenance records for 40 years and a logbook for 17 years are available and in good order, and I have copies of records for recent years.
(-) Amazingly, the flight manual is missing - but maybe the owner has it at home (he was not even there when I inspected the plane).
(-) I came on the day the plane was to have an annual; the engineer came but did not do the annual because the prop (McCauley) and the engine (O-200) ran out of calendar years for overhaul (but not flight hours). So, the club operating the plane decided to switch it to on-condition maintenance scheme, which will take about 4 weeks at LBA, and then they will do an annual.
(+) In the meantime, I spoke to the engineer. He is a very thorough and professional guy and has a plane of his own. He inspected the plane for the last 5 years, knows it well, and did not have anything bad to say about it EXCEPT...
(--)...confirming my big doubts about the engine. It is an O-200 with 1360 hours since overhaul, with 70-75 compression in all cylinders as of last year, but the plane has been in the air for a total of 6 (yes, six!) hours in the last 5 years, roughly one hour every year.

So, what would you do? My current thoughts are to try talking the owner into something like a lease for, say, 50 flight hours with an option to purchase it thereafter. However, even if he accepts this offer, what can be done to get the plane back into the service with the minimum chance of the engine destroying itself?

Genghis the Engineer

21st Aug 2009, 16:34

JW411

21st Aug 2009, 16:37

For what it's worth and since you asked for opinions, I would walk away and keep walking - for a considerable time.

Ultranomad

21st Aug 2009, 16:49

Genghis, the current CofA is valid until the end of August, and the engineer I spoke to, although not fully independent of the operator, has no doubts the plane will pass the upcoming annual without bending the law. Of course, I will have an independent inspection, but I am afraid even that may not be enough. The problem is more about exterminating hangar gremlins before they wake up in mid-flight. Or is it?

Pace

21st Aug 2009, 17:28

I was showing an aircraft to an engineer who was checking it out for a buyer.
he said something which might be relevant to your purchase.

Are you buying an aircraft or someones headache?

The numbers have to work ie is it so cheap that even with the costs involved to bring it up to form you are still quids in then go ahead.

If your instincts tell you that you are buying someones headache / problem then walk away.

Pace

21st Aug 2009, 17:37

6 hours in six years means that none of the systems have been regularly used. You may find things work for a few hours and then start to break down...

Saw this with a Pawnee that had done only a few hours per year, for 20 years, and the whole thing was a near disaster. It ended with a very serious engine fire, in the air, which was due to a blown exhaust, which was due to a mag problem (huge backfire), which was due to lack of use ....
Run a mile....
UV

jxk

21st Aug 2009, 17:49

Socata Rallye - I would consider the support for this type of aircraft. I think you'll find it difficult to obtain spares and design authority support from SOCATA (I believe). From my experience of just a couple of these aircraft they are susceptible to structural ex-foliage. IMO your're better to stick to Cessnas & Pipers when buying second-hand.

Sir George Cayley

21st Aug 2009, 20:08

Anton,

Many of us have lain awake at night pondering a certain a/c we want to buy.

The word want is important; not need to buy. Especially at the moment there are lots of a/c for sale, so be choosey.

I question the wisdom of buying an old Rallye when a more recent Kolliber might be a better economic proposition?

What are you looking for? Low wing, metal, bubble canopy, stol, underpowered and quirky? Hell, there's loadsa planes out there.

Bet I could out fly you in your Rallye Club with a 1969 Cessna F150J.

Don't get all fixated like it was your first girl. Oh, you have haven't you?

Sir George Cayley

IO540

21st Aug 2009, 20:22

Socata Rallye - I would consider the support for this type of aircraft. I think you'll find it difficult to obtain spares and design authority support from SOCATA (I believe).

Do you have a reference?

Socata is alive and well and selling about 60 TBMs a year - that is about $200M a year. More than the combined "GA" revenue of most names in GA. They support the TB piston range (mfg stopped 2002) and I gather they fully support the Rallye range (mfg stopped in the 1980s) with parts.

If Socata lost the TBM sales then it would become yet another largely parts-only operation - like Mooney, piston Piper, and a few others. But I don't see this happening; they have very little competition, and little prospect of any, especially as Epic (http://www.epicaircraft.com/home_flash.html) has just folded.

But in this case I would walk away. If one is going to buy a total knackered dog, one is better buying a dog of a PA28 or a dog of a Cessna, because parts for those are a bit cheaper (especially removed from other wreckage) and one is going to need a lot of parts :) The engine will be totally sh*gged and will need an overhaul before anybody should take a risk on getting airborne with it :)

EchoMike

21st Aug 2009, 21:01

Don't know much specifically about the Socata, but I can tell you a bit about the O-200 Continental.

1300+ hours at 6 or so a year isn't good for them - they develop sticking valves, all kinds of problems and you'll need a top end pretty soon. Use ECI cylinders, set of four installed runs about $5,000 including labor. 1300 hours on the bottom end isn't a problem as long as it is 1300 SMOH and not since TOP overhaul only. Bottom end on an O-200 is generally good for 3K hours, or two top end cycles.

The "ten year" overhaul limit is stated by the lawyers - if the engine is running fine, leave it alone, years don't matter in the real world on this engine.

Fixed pitch prop also doesn't need a "years" service, after some thousand hours they get de-painted, crack checked, reconditioned and re-painted, $300 or so in the US (I am sure it is much more there for the same work.)

Disused airplanes do develop all kinds of strange problems - rusty wheel bearings, stuck gyros, dried out gaskets, hardened brake O-rings, mice and insects taking up residence, I would have to mention that you may actually be getting into a restoration here, which is fine if that is what you want, not so fine if you plan to fly any time soon. (I can relate a story of someone who crawled down the tail cone of a C-150 and came face to face with an occupied wasp nest . . . )

If the price is really, really, really right - and remember you are not allowed to work on this yourself - that's one thing. It really does need to be cheap, because there is very little as expensive as a cheap airplane.

As was asked before - did you marry the first girl you kissed?

Best Regards,

Echo Mike

Big Pistons Forever

22nd Aug 2009, 04:59

Pay now (buy a really nice top of market aeroplane) or pay later (in a shop visit per flight for the first 2 years). Same amount of money in the end ....the difference is with the pay later scheme you end up up with a boat load of frustration, many cancelled flights and a tatty looking machine nobody will want. Buy the best airpalane you can find. One that somebody has allready lavished time , money and attention on. In the long run it will be the cheapest airplane you will ever own.

jxk

22nd Aug 2009, 05:43

Socata is alive and well and selling about 60 TBMs a year - that is about $200M a year. More than the combined "GA" revenue of most names in GA. They support the TB piston range (mfg stopped 2002) and I gather they fully support the Rallye range (mfg stopped in the 1980s) with parts.

IO540 - I think you'll find that it's difficult to obtain support and parts for the Rallye from Socata (although they claim otherwise) and the company with the distribution rights for TB range in the UK has gone into administration.

Air Touring Ltd enters administration - Business & GA Forum - AirSpace (http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/forums/air-touring-ltd-enters-administration-28084.aspx)

IO540

22nd Aug 2009, 06:27

I think you'll find that it's difficult to obtain support and parts for the Rallye from Socata (although they claim otherwise)

If you speak from personal experience, I defer to that. My experience of parts availability for the TB is very good.

But, yeah, the French will always be French, with their perfect polite manners and the "Gallic shrug" and a well polished way of disposing of issues they don't want to attend to :) But hey this is aviation. Worse than double glazing and central heating :)

and the company with the distribution rights for TB range in the UK has gone into administration.

Air Touring have been an irrelevance for years. Which, presumably, is why they went bust :)

Distribution rights for the TB? There haven't been any TBs to distribute since 2002. And few people bought the TBM via them. Also see my comment below re sole agencies; you cannot have "distribution rights" in the EU. A dealer in the EU has to earn his keep with good customer service (in aviation-speak, by not sh*agging his customers).

In the early 2000s they were running a pricing scam where they would inflate prices over everybody else. This caused all half-savvy owners to buy from other European dealers, or even (covertly, for Socata tried to stop this) via U.S. contacts, from dealers in the USA. By say 2005, most people I knew were buying from one or two European dealers as a routine matter. Sole agencies had been illegal in the EU for many years and eventually Socata had to accept that.

Air Touring's only real claim to fame, apart from their historical connection, was that they were the only UK dealer able to do calibration etc on the famously unreliable KFC225 autopilot, fitted to the GT range. There is one other shop I know of, now. They had considerable expertise on the type (as one ought to expect) but IMHO the reports from customers in recent years were too variable for my liking. They had been in a more or less continuous state of open warfare with the factory in Tarbes over reimbursement of warranty claims, which resulted in the alienation of many customers. More recently, they terminated customer credit accounts (they told me so personally) due to lack of cash and I gather that eventually they were unable to get parts from Tarbes unless they paid Socata cash up front, which made getting parts rather difficult...

Apart from some people losing money in the final weeks through prepayments for work, I don't think their demise affects anybody. The likelihood of them going bust has been an open secret to all those with ears for some/many months.

Back to the topic, I think that engine will be full of corrosion and just changing the cylinders is a very bad idea. A total overhaul is a must.

aseanaero

22nd Aug 2009, 07:12

Depends on the price.

If you can get it for market value less the price of an overhauled engine and prop and work up a list of what's wrong with it and what needs replacing plus a contingency fund of 20% and then make an offer.

I've bought and sold aircraft that have been sitting for 15 years , I made money on them sold as-is and the buyers were happy with the prices they paid so it gets back to what it's worth in it's current condition.

Don't expect the owner to get back to you straight away , they have highly inflated opinions on the value when they are selling. Make an offer and he'll probably get back to you a few months later after he's shopped around and nobody else is interested or offering less than you are.

I've waited 12 months to buy some aircraft , just be patient.

Chimbu chuckles

22nd Aug 2009, 15:46

The airframe is structurally sound, no corrosion,

Wanna bet?

aseanaero

22nd Aug 2009, 23:03

Agree with Chimbu,

Most older aircraft have some corrosion especially if they have been parked for a while.

The main issue is the airframe in good condition.

Was it hangered , parked outside or parked under a shelter.

Market price is about $60,000 for a good example of the Rallye 180 , the German seller is asking $26,500 . If you can get it for $15,000 and there's not too much corrosion in the airfame it would be worth looking at.

Here's a Rallye 235 in Spain with half the total time, engine 200 hours since overhaul and looks in good shape for $60,000. You could probably get this one for $50,000 and enjoy it straight away.

http://www.planecheck.com/images/11551/img019170048356.jpg

Ultranomad

22nd Aug 2009, 23:23

aseanaero, in my case, the plane was parked in a good hangar, and the seller is asking about $18000. If I go for it (which will not happen unless and until it passes a new annual), I will probably offer less and/or some kind of warranty. So, we are probably thinking on the same wavelength :}

aseanaero

22nd Aug 2009, 23:34

Anton , you will be lucky to get any sort of warranty at this end of the market. I wouldn't do it if I was selling , as-is where-is.

Grab a torch and mirror or even a good mini camera with a flash and open up every inspection hatch and snap photos to see if there's any visible corrosion, if it's been hangered it shouldn't be too bad.

If you go ahead with the purchase keep the thread going , I'd like to see how you got on with it.

Good luck

---

RatherBeFlying

23rd Aug 2009, 01:52

Pay a totally independent licenced engineer familiar with the type for half a day of his time to go over the whole aeroplane and paperwork and estimate the time, cost and aggro of getting it CofAd again.Check around your home field to find an engineer to do the inspection. Yes, you may have to pay his travel and accommodation. I would not in any way rely on the engineer who has been maintaining the a/c. You need a fresh pair of suspicious eyes.

IO540

23rd Aug 2009, 02:59

I agree; I have heard of some "suspicious" prebuy inspections. One does have to pay somebody one trusts and who is familiar with the type, to come over and see. Anton - I am sending you a PM or email with a Socata experienced contact who does this.

gasax

23rd Aug 2009, 09:50

In the UK 880s in current use rarely are advertised for more than £12k. That makes the one you're looking at 'not cheap'.

Many years ago (when I was much younger and nothing like so smart!) I bought an aircraft which had flown very little in the last 6 to 8 years - after a full rebuild. It was 'cheap' - roughly 75% of the price of similar aircraft.

The posts above about pay now or later are so so true. After 2 years plus of heavy maintenance it reached the stage where if we went somewhere it would generally get us back. I prefer not to remember how much it cost - let alone the number of favoursinvolved in collecting, recovering it, sourcing spares,getting remote maintenance companies to carry out repairs. Eventually I found a retired engineer (who still had his licences) and he and I sorted it.

If the aircraft was exceptionally cheap it might be worth the huge amount of aggraviation. If it is just a 'little' cheaper, leave it. A much better aircraft will be for sale next week or month.

KeesM

24th Aug 2009, 06:18

I'll pay like 5000,- euro for a plane like that maybe a 1000 more if it has an 406 mhz ELT and mode-s.

The problem with the Rallyes is not engine or prop, it is the airframe itself.
In general used parts are reasonble easy to get with a few exeptions.
New parts are really expensive compared with say Cessna(set of slat rollers 900 euro)
The main spar can be the corrosion problem thing on these planes. Another problem area is the nose gear.
If you buy a Rallye check if it has Socata shocks, there is another brand(I believe it is called Eram), used ones or spare parts for those are nearly impossible to get.

If you really want to buy a Ralley better look around a bit more. Here is a Rallye site with a for sale section: Morane-, Rallye- und Koliber Flugzeuge (http://www.morane.de/)

Another piece of advice, find somebody how knows how to fly them. Fly Rallyes like a Cessna or Piper and it will be boring and embarrasing. A Rallye is easy to fly but a bit more difficult to fly well.

-Kees (former 880 owner)

Justiciar

24th Aug 2009, 10:04

You must have a burning desire to own one of these aircraft if you want to go this route. Getting an EASA C of A aircraft up to certification and keeping it there is likely to cost you an arm and both legs as well as some other bits of your anatomy :{

I could name you at least half a dozen good permit aircraft that you could acquire for < £20k and some which would come in at £12 - £15k. All will be cheaper to fly, maintain and insure and fly as fast if not faster than the Socata. True the majority will be tail wheel, but that is not a problem for any pilot of average competence.

IO540

24th Aug 2009, 10:45

There are other reasons for going the CofA route:

- fly everywhere without having to get permission
- fly IFR
- fly at night

Mind you, one pays a significant price for this, in the operating costs.

A and C

24th Aug 2009, 10:47

Rod1

24th Aug 2009, 11:07

KeesM

24th Aug 2009, 11:27

A Jodel with the same engine will match the performance and I do not think anyone would criticize the robustness of the airframe provided it is kept indoors. Such an aircraft is likely to cost £15k, but the running costs will be £1000’s per year less if you are prepared to do the work yourself. You can even rebuild the engine yourself and get it signed off by an appropriately qualified LAA inspector. There is a C65 being built up by some friends of mine at very low cost.

I think you can forget about a Jodel matching a Rallye, speed and climb, yes , but for sure not payload and crosswind capability and probably it matches short field performance.
A Rallye is a fun aircraft for local flights and the occasional long X-country.
Altough it is slow, it will take-off and land on short(est) runways. Its handling is superiour to anything build in the US. Roomy cockpit and great visibility.

-Kees

Justiciar

24th Aug 2009, 11:56

You are looking at permit types with rose tintted glasses! As a LAA inspector I have to take a more pragmatic view.

The permit system has cheap aircraft, and it has high performance aircraft, but just like the rest of life cheap & high performance don't go together.

I don't particuarly like the aircraft in question but it is far more robust in construction than most permit types and so will give less trouble in a high usage situation.

I think a number of points emerge from what you have said:

Anton_K did not mention the sort of usage he expected, so I am not clear how it can be said that there will be a "high usage" situation.
The requirement for robustness does I agree go with greater usage, though I suspect that many permit owners would argue against your suggestion that permit aircraft at the price I quoted are not robust enough for typical GA usage.
what do you mean by "less trouble"? Is there evidence that permit aircraft are inherently less reliable than C o A in the sort of environment we are talking about
I had never regarded the Ralley as a high performance aircraft, but then I don't know them and will stand to be corrected.
All the evidence appears to be that getting and keeping this sort of aircraft airworthy will be a hugely expensive exercise and that obtaining a decent aircraft at reasonable cost is far easier the permit route. Whilst I bow to your knowledge of engineering matters I cannot get away from the tales told to me by owners of even well maintained basis aircraft of the cost of maintenance under the EASA Part "M" system.

This is not about having rose tinted glasses. You mention pragmatism, and I think that a pragmatic approach points away from an old low use C of A aircraft which carries a very real risk of costing the buyer more over two to three years than it would have cost him to buy a nearly new RV6 or 7.

All aircraft are a trade off between payload, cross wind capability, speed, rate of climb, short field capability and cost. Anton_K will have to tell us which is important to him.

Rod1

24th Aug 2009, 17:15

mikehallam

24th Aug 2009, 20:24

As a new PPL back in the 1970's I was lucky to hire the 100 h.p Rallye a few times. IMHO Better short field performance than the DR1050/1

All I can remember are its excellent characteristics, nothing negative:
Slats on the leading edges, wonderful visbility, great supple u/c. Good handling, decent sized fin, plenty of room inside.

Of course this number of years later it all depends on age and condition but at the right price an engine can be sorted if the a/frame passes muster.
A borescope should help tell what it's like in the bores and it's still a production mill too.

Mike Hallam.

KeesM

25th Aug 2009, 06:01

This info is straight off the net, so feel free to correct me;

100 hp 880 Empty weight 990lb, MTOW 1695lb 100 hp Jodel 913 / 1650

Jodel Win

Performance
880 Max Cruise 174 KPH Jodel Max Cruise 185 KPH

Jodel Win

Range
880 460 nm Jodel 575 nm

Jodel Win

I assume that the 880 will be better at STOL, but the Jodel will cope with most of the UK strips as it is one of the most common UK permit aircraft.

Rod1

I'm not going to say one is better than the other. Both are great machines and as somebody else said things are a compromise.
It is just what is important to one. My first plane was a 880 now I've a C150. Which one do I like the most? My head says the Cessna, my heart goes for the 880. And if I could fit in one I would probably buy a Bolkow Junior(I do not fit, I tried:{).

-Kees

PS. Major differenes between a 880 and C150.
-880 has far better handling,
-880 higher payload,
-880 better STOL and crosswind,
-880 better visibility except for straight down,
-880 wider cabin,
-880 has a stick,
-880 slower and steeper approach,
-880 more fun to fly,
-C150 faster by about 15kts,
-C150 higher climb rate by about 200-300 ft/min(except initial climb),
-C150 can be flown with lazy feet,
-C150 tanks can be dipped,
-C150 cabin is cooler in the summer.