Light aircraft down in Dundee

[Gertrude the Wombat]

you should not talk to the media
Fundamental rule of life, but most people almost never have contact with the media and aren't used to dealing with them.

As a politician I've had some practice (and even some training) so I would talk to them, but I do have some idea of how to go about it!

----------

Doesn't anyone else think that the first mistake was in thinking that a basic PPL is useful for making multi-hundred-mile trips to a destination for a purpose to a deadline? I know lots of people harbour that fantasy before they start training, but it should be gone by the time you pass the skills test?

[Munnyspinner]

I'm speechless.

The whole purpose of having aPPL is that it is the minimum qualification available to allow anyone to make any length of journey they so choose whether it be a local "bimble" or a intercontinental tour.

If you plan properly and know your limitations there is no limit to what you can achieve.

Doesn't anyone else think that the first mistake was in thinking that a basic PPL is useful for making multi-hundred-mile trips to a destination for a purpose to a deadline? I know lots of people harbour that fantasy before they start training, but it should be gone by the time you pass the skills test?

No doubt as a politician ( ha!) you will be able to propose some expensive time consuming and useless legislation to further constrain our freedoms.

Yes, it is.
This incident, on the other hand, happened in Scotland, quite famous for it's large rugged mountains Hippy, have a look at a chart of the area - no rugged mountains between Edinburgh and Dundee but plenty gently undulating farmland on alluvial flood plain, carefully arranged by millions of years of glaciation. One or two hills which can be easily avoided. at 10,000ft you can just about see Dundee airport from the Fife coast! ( on a clear day).

Finally, someone mentioned a twin engined pusher aircraft

Would this be the OMA Sud Skycar ( not yet certified)? Looks very nice and is apparently approaching certification. A mini Piaggio - smart.

[modelman]

I guess as VH's plane is pretty modern it will be transponding mode C or even S,wouldn't have this displayed his FL to him and ATC?.
With all that high ground enroute,any lack of understanding of altimetry is not good:eek:
MM

[VP959]

I guess as VH's plane is pretty modern it will be transponding mode C or even S,wouldn't have this displayed his FL to him and ATC?.


VH's aeroplane was a microlight, with a fairly basic combined digital instrument panel. I'm not sure if he had a transponder fitted or not, it's not a normal fit on the vast majority of microlights but one or two long-distance microlighters have fitted them, where the empty weight restriction makes this legally possible.

VP

[avgh]

Hi - re hypoxia

Edinburgh CTA is not large. I live in the area between Heatrhow, London City, Stansted and Luton - big workload wherever you head (except France via Dover!).

I entered at 7,000 feet and kleft at 10,000 ft having made two requests for level changes cos of cloud tops.

I was not light headed and flew down to 7,000 immediately north of the CTA. Dodged a few rain flurries then, as per flight plan I then checked fuel for Kinloss and found that I had burned the margin in climbing over the clouds. With 10 litres (50 mins) fuel I called Dundee and got permission to land for an uplift. the rest you know.

Even after leakage from the damaged wing tank, there was still plenty of fuel left after recovery from the tree. Not speculating on why the engine stopped when it did, but carb icing and its chums looks pretty unlikely since I had had some check blasts during descent.

As for "not being used to flying high", on a training flight I flew with my Instructor from Damyn's to Budapest (hangared at Budaors airport - grass) and to get over some of the weather we flew higher than 10,000 for some of the time. We were going to the Red Bull air races and I have some great pix if there is a way of putting them on the site for anyone to see.

No hypoxia then or on weds, but am well aware of the signs.

Vince

Hi Yakker

As pointed out in the last posting there was plenty of fuel in the tank after recovery from the tree.

I have no idea where this "ran out of fuel" story originated.

I ran out of engine!

Vince

Hi re-heat

To answer your specific point re navigation

I planned the route on charts (North England and Scotland) and checked distances before leaving for the airfield. I did this in Grasmere with my Nephew who has a (lapsed) ppl, as he was interested.

At Barrow I went over the charts, fuel quantities with the a pilot and a pilot/instructor and used their experience to add Dundee as a fuel divert if necessary. We checked the wing gauges.

I checked the weather and forcasts in the Tower.

After the external checks I got into the aircraft and went through the start up procedure. Whist warming up I opened Pooleys at Dundee and had a look. I switched on the satnav and, zooming out, checked the plot to Kinloss abainst my chary - agreed closely.

When I approached Dundee I had Pooleys, Chart and Satnav.

Plus guardian angel fortunately!

Vince

PS - all this is readily verifiable from the people around

Hi Hippy - Are you suggesting I should have pancaked into a mountain? That would maybe have pleased some correspondents! Vince

Hi Gertrude

Love the floatplane. Maybe talking to the media was an error. Apparently my accent makes me sound like a rich (not) twit (OK, you'll choose) and this aggravated some who assumed I am arrogant.

Cannot really see that "telling it like it is" should be inherently harmful.

That is why I have joined your community, and am trying to be open and honest about all I did.

If anyone has any more direct questions that might be relevant to flight safety I'll be happy to answer them. Vince

[worrab]

FWIW, from the hypoxee's perspective, hypoxia has a virtually imperceptible effect. It's insidious in its onset and can radically affect one's performance without any dizziness, feeling faint etc.

I have one question for you, Vince. How will this "adventure" influence your future flight planning?

[Pace]

Vince

if i was you i would stay low. remember the old saying " stick your head out of the trenches and expect to be shot at". Unless of course you enjoy being shot at which is what will happen in this forum :)

What you have to ask yourself is not just about the actual crash but what lead up to that even starting with a row with the wife/Girlfriend. examine the flight and the bits you were not happy with....

Above all do get a full check out as often we cannot see our own mistakes.
Go further in aviation and checkouts become the norm including simulator work so thats good advice to anyone.
Have some humility and you will get a lot more sympathy within the forum.
Would love to see your pics

FWIW, from the hypoxee's perspective, hypoxia has a virtually imperceptible effect. It's insidious in its onset and can radically affect one's performance without any dizziness, feeling faint etc.

Worrab not at 10K unless your a heavy smoker or ill


Pace

[worrab]

not at 10K unless your a heavy smoker or ill

Agreed - but if one does become affected by hypoxia, don't expect to feel obvious symptoms.

(Was it Louis Theroux who suggested that anoxia would be a great way to administer the death penalty because the prisoner would be completely unaware of their passing from conscious to unconscious? The moderate right were apparently up-in-arms because the criminal wouldn't suffer!!)

[Cows getting bigger]

Vince, in the interests of flight safety, you stated:

I entered at 7,000 feet and kleft at 10,000 ft having made two requests for level changes cos of cloud tops.

Can you just confirm that you were operating VFR above the clouds? :bored:

[10W]

Edinburgh CTA is not large. I live in the area between Heatrhow, London City, Stansted and Luton - big workload wherever you head (except France via Dover!).

I entered at 7,000 feet and kleft at 10,000 ft having made two requests for level changes cos of cloud tops.

I was not light headed and flew down to 7,000 immediately north of the CTA. Dodged a few rain flurries then, as per flight plan I then checked fuel for Kinloss and found that I had burned the margin in climbing over the clouds. With 10 litres (50 mins) fuel I called Dundee and got permission to land for an uplift. the rest you know.


I wonder what chart you were using ?

The Edinburgh CTA only exists up to 6000' and certain VFR 1:500,000 charts do not show any Controlled Airspace whose base is above 5000' (as clearly stated on the chart legend).

So were you aware of Class A airspace South of Edinburgh which extended upwards from FL85 (that's 8,500' on pressure setting 1013) ? From reports I have heard of, you were exactly at the base level when you first contacted Scottish ... was this by accident or design ?

On your first call, you were just about to enter the Class D TMA which extends from 5500' upwards. Were you aware of this airspace ?

The Transition Altitude for the Scottish TMA is 6000'. If you were operating above this altitude (which you clearly were), then you need to know about Flight Levels and the Standard Pressure setting as those are the units used by everyone else. Or once more, did you not know that airspace was there ?

When you asked for descent, Scottish co-ordinated this with Edinburgh to FL70 and transferred you. You didn't contact Edinburgh (for whatever reason) and didn't stop off at the clearance level. Descent was continued out of the TMA and in to the Edinburgh CTR to around 3500'. From FL70 (that's 7000' on 1013) to 3500' you potentially endangered other airspace users by not complying with your cleared level and entering airspace for which you didn't have a clearance. If you suffered a radio failure, then there are procedures to be followed for that ....

I am glad you survived regardless of how you ended up having the accident. But I think you will need to start assessing where you went wrong in terms of your performance regarding airspace, altimetry, and your interaction with Scottish and Edinburgh ATC. As formal reports on these aspects have been filed with the CAA, then you might find yourself having to come up with the answers sooner rather than later !

[Fly-by-Wife]

Biggles never had to worry about Flight Levels or controlled airspace, or following ATC clearances, so why should our hero Vince?

:rolleyes:

FBW

[Munnyspinner]

Vince,

it is very good of you to respond to so many questions after your ordeal. I'm afraid that you may find this an rather endless task!

I remain puzzled as to how you found yourself where you did when your engine conked out. You were heading North past Dundee, did a 180 and didn't fancy the river or Oil rigs so you turned around again to find a landing site. Correct?

....immediately north of the CTA. Dodged a few rain flurries then, as per flight plan I then checked fuel for Kinloss and found that I had burned the margin in climbing over the clouds. With 10 litres (50 mins) fuel I called Dundee and got permission to land for an uplift.

What was your route to Dundee? When did you decide to turn back for fuel? and how did you find yourself to the North of the city when the airport is to the south west? From Edinburgh direct to Dundee you would find it challenging not to overfy the airport and the routing EGPH Knloss would take you about 2nm to the west of EGPT. Were you lost?

If your route was a straight line Barrow to Kinloss you should have been well to the west of Dundee and diverting from the North would have taken you past Perth. Did you consider this as an option. EGPT would be have been easily found on your satnav database and I cannot understand why it wasn't the most obviuos choice - although I don't have your actual routing.

Your Budapest trip would have been much more challenging than this little hop and hopefully your detractors will accept that your level of competency was sufficient. On the day, however, the decision not to land sooner before the engine failure seems to have been the decider. Hindsight is a perfect tool and I know that if you had expected the donk to quit - you would have not been where you were!

Equally, had you stopped and fuelled up and then your engine quit you would have been heavier. Perhaps you are luckier than we even thought!

[Zamfire]

"First Unknown Target, now Zamfire - it must be an American thing, not to understand the concept of inverse proportionality... :rolleyes:

FBW"



Too much irony for to grasp - sorry.

[Unknown Target]

Boy, sure would be nice to be allowed to post so I can defend myself...:p

EDIT: Yay, my posts finally went through. If any of you didn't read my response to you earlier, please go back to my previous post, I edited in my responses there.

Anyway, my general issue wasn't with any malice directed towards Mr. H, it was the perceived general malice directed towards private pilots. That, and the absolutely ham fisted responses; one mistake like this and he should be banned from the sky forever? His asinine handling of the situation aside, that is just extremely harsh; seems like most of the people posting (most, not all, Pacer ;) ) are just absolutely brutal.

[Supersport]

Hi Vince, appreciate you taking the time to try and respond to queries posted here. I'm interested to know what your routing from Barrow to Edinburgh / Dundee was? I was operating West of the lakes and the Western Isles (Blackpool to Islay via Deans Cross & Turnberry VORs) at around the time you were enroute mid afternoon. Did you fly direct over the hills? Follow the coast? Follow the M6?

I was finishing a check out on an SR20 G3 with my old PPL instructor. I have to agree with you regarding the weather, cumulus was developing quickly and pretty sporadically not just over the hills as one would expect, the forecast did read a bit better than the actual though (IIRC).

My point is, had I been without an IR rated instructor I'd have turned around and gone home upon reaching Deans Cross. I was flying at FL65 and was catching the tops with very few holes, i.e. High probability of being unable to remain in sight of the surface especially further inland over the Northern Lakes where it was very filled in with even higher tops. Added to which there was a fairly stiff North Westerly pushing the muck even further inland.

I probably can guess your answer but were you in sight of the surface at all times? Enough to pick out ground features (ground to map etc)? Or were you simply VMC on top and relying on your sat nav / GPS? I appreciate that you had strong reasons for needing to get from A to B asap, but having flown at the same time, albeit further west than your goodself, it was a fairly dodgy / variable / random afternoon for a VFR flight, poor(ish) vis (<7000m) and fairly bumpy at times even over the sea! Must have been quite an experience for you and what was your CT.

Regardless of circumstances speculated about on here I'm very glad you walked away Sir, it seems like there has been a few more aviation accidents (not just GA) than the 'norm' (if the is one), so it's good have someone actually walking away from one, even if the forced landing was very adventurous and even with the laws of physics considered; a pretty big gamble!

SS600

[avgh]

cows getting bigger - yes I was operating above the cloud tops, but cloud was broken (at all levels below) and at no time did I lose good VFR sight of the ground. If the cloud had closed in I had an option to the East where there was always less of it. Yours, Vince

IOW

Thank you for your preview of the report to AAIB. Sorry to say there are a number of inaccuracies - such as I did speak to Edinburgh and they referred me to Scottish who gave me a squalk and confirmed it before entering.

And I was transferred out to Inverness (not Edinburgh) by Scottish, but was out of range at that point.

However I shall be happy to answer any questions to the Board, but think I'll wait for that as:

1. all my flight records, notes and charts and Pooley's are in Dundee where I have to go to collect them in person when I can.

2. my changes of flight level were with the permission of Scottish. How did that endanger anyone? they had me on radar and my track and levels were both cleared. I was given the instruction to notify them if I made any significant turns but I did not.

3. I am as keen as anyone else to discover if there were errors but your detailed note, whilst showing a lot of knowledge of the circumstances, shows just how important it is to have an independent investigation that has all the facts, not just some, before it.

Thank you for your thoughtful input. I shall check the charts/satnav plot etc when I get the opportunity to collect them. Vince

[10W]

Then let's just say that your version and that contained on the radio recordings show 2 different stories. Maybe you had a bang on the head when you crashed and can't actually remember what happened.

Most ATC folks are happy to discuss infringements and the like with the pilot involved, to provide education and identify causal factors to try and prevent reoccurence. I think once the CAA are aware of the content of the radio transcripts I'd be pushing for a prosecution instead. Clearly it's the only thing which will make you wake up to your errors, once proven.

[avgh]

thank you for your guidance 10W. I take it you are perfect in every way? At least a court would start with the facts and hear both sides. You appear willing to do neither. Vince

Hi Munnyspinner

I've printed your last out so I can refer to it by paragraph treating the quote and your question as one.

Everyone is advising me that I should not spend time and energy on this Forum. I cremated my first wife's mother yesterday, having taken all the responsibility for the arrangements, so the past 6 days have been rather fraught.

Detailed answers to some questions await my getting all the charts, pilot notes, satnav, Pooley's etc from Dundee where they are at present in "lost property"! Snce my possessions include my passport and they fished all the stuff out of G-VINH I wonder exactly what constitutes "lost" in Dundee!

A kind reporter has (BBC radio) posted back my glasses (the spare ones are in my flight bag) and I am torn between straightening them out to see properly and keeping them in their twisted state as a memento. In case anyone is worried I shall have good glasses back before my next flight.

The reason I am continuing to talk is, strangely, it helps me to talk through with interested pilots what happened and with funerals and business commitments I cannot spend any physical time with pilots at the moment. throughout this thread you, munnyspinner, have avoided jumping to conclusions, been considerate to my feelings and made valuable observations. So here goes!

Para 1 - seems endless, but it is only 5 1/2 days since the "event"

Para 2 - I was advised to do a "Long Final" by the tower staying North of Dundee. I did not like the look of the oil rigs, a mast and the Tay bridge for a "long Final". Once under my instructor I called a "long final" from about 1.5 miles and he said that this was really only for airliners. On spotting what looked to be a house, office and obstruction free path to the Tay between the city and the oil complex I made a 90deg right turn at 30 degrees bank (onto South) towards the river. Immediately before the turn my LH fuel sightglass showed 5 litres plus. At the completion of the turn the engine stopped. I glanced at the sightglass and it was empty! After the engine cut I called my Mayday trimmed at zero deg flaps (CT flies on negative 12) and appraised. Although the sightglass now had the same level of fuel restored I had to choose against a restart procedure in case it didn't and I was losing valuable height. That was a was judgement call. The engine could have stopped for a number of reasons some of which would prevent a restart. The dunes offered nowhere to land; the river was a marginal reach and there was a road in the undershoot zone. I turned 180degrees (now heading North) in the glide towards a cropfield I observed before the turn. However the loss of height now ruled this out - and there was a small housing estate in the undershoot zone. I radioed "negative cropfield". To my right I had some inviting playing fields but they had both soccer and rugby goalposts and a load of players on them. Then I called Tower and said I was trying a golf course. It was the last option, but as I got closer I saw that it was absolutely teeming with players. Sods Law. It was the club's Competition day so instead of the odd pair of golfers I might have been able to miss there were dozens. So not wanting to kill anyone I chose the tree. I have not read the particular Biggles story since I was around 14 but, Biggles loses his engine over a wood and is unable to glide free. (Someone earlier challenged whether he was in an SE5a as he "flew" mostly Camels, but I recall it was the SE). Into my mind came his manoeuvre - viscious side slip (CT jumped like a frightened rabbit as I snapped on full aileron Right and kicked full rudder left!) then pull back the stick to reduce speed and "pancake" flat into the tree. I recall Biggles being concerned that after hitting the tree he would slide down backwards and break his neck. Fortunately in my case the momentum of the engine and the light weight of the airframe "pulled" the aircraft forward and more level and it balanced on branches at a nasty 30ish degree of bank from the sideslip. From the pictures you can see that the plane has broken its back DOWN (ie towards the undercarriage) as it was the bottom of the fuselage that struck. Biggles of course was fictional, but the RFC stories by Capt W E Johns are almost (as far as I know all) actual stories of airmen who did these things. that is why his descriptions of flying read so well to a modern pilot (always bearing in mind the differences in machines).

No heroism, just following the mental MayDay checklist.

Para 3 - I should prefer to answer these questions with reference to my chart as this is not a geographical area I am familiar with. I have not seen the charts since before the "landing". All I can remember is that when deciding that 50 min was inadequate for Kinloss I flew east for a while whilst reading Pooleys on Dundee, checking the chart, resetting satnav for Dundee etc. the result was that I ended to the North of the city and approached the field from that side. With 50 min fuel and Dundee not far there was no rush.

4. I was on straight line from Barrow to Kinloss. At Barrow (great airfield and great people) when reviewing my flight plan we discussed where to uplift AvGas, there being nowhere obvious for mogas. This discussion was with two experienced pilots, one an instructor, who are the Manager and the Head of Operations. they recommended Dundee (flying North or South) so it became my planned divert. To me the recommended - and closest - choice was Dundee.

5. In the past couple of months or so I have flown to Inverness, to Woodvale, to Old Sarum, to Lydd and various others from Damyn's. Flying to Budapest (via St Johann in Austria) was a highlight of my training and really awoke me to the fact that the CT is a practical and "fun" way of getting around. If I had had a surface map of where I was I would certainly not have been there - even in a twin it was dodgy!! Yes, hindsight is a great aid - if I had been really short of fuel I would have asked the airfield for an immediate landing. If I had known that the clonker was going to stop clonking I'd have kept the 5,000 feet I had at the start and landed safely. If I'd known that it was competition day at the golf course (no NOTAM on that) I'd have gone to another tree so as not to disturb them!

6. Split tank, heavy fuel load, spark. rather not think about that one thank you!

I rate my former instructor as one of the very best ever. His MayDay training kept me calm and focussed on a tricky series of decisions.

Perhaps some of the other contributors to this thread might also have had similar experiences where the training took over and disaster was avoided? Be nice to hear from them. Vince

[Justiciar]

If Vince is at risk of a CAA prosecution (as has been suggested here) then he really should not be saying anything else about this incident on a public forum, since in doing so he might well risk incriminating himself.

[BabyBear]

I was advised to do a "Long Final" by the tower staying North of Dundee. I did not like the look of the oil rigs, a mast and the Tay bridge for a "long Final". Once under my instructor I called a "long final" from about 1.5 miles and he said that this was really only for airliners.

It leaves me speechless!


he might well risk incriminating himself.

I think it's way too late for that piece of advice.

[gasax]

I'll not comment beyond I got my licence at Dundee and although I'm not a frequent visitor I know the area pretty well - little of what I have read makes any sense.

The Tay rail bridge is approximately 1300m from the airfield boundary, about 1550m from the threshold - it is about 40ft high at the north end.

The two jackup drilling rigs are approximately 5.5km from the airfield on the north bank of the Tay, they are approximately 200ft high. The nearest the 'tree' can be is 4.5km to the threshold but north east of the runway and the far side of the city and Law top (height 570ft) to the airfield. From there it is difficult to see the airfield.

Robert Frost comes to mind "Half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can't and the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it”

[Justiciar]

I think it's way too late for that piece of advice

It is never too late to stop digging :hmm:

[Bahn-Jeaux]

Well, since like Vince, I am a low hours PPL, reading this thread has left me feeling both a little sympathy for and frustration with him and the situation he found himself in.

I have read and re-read all comments and tried to imagine what my planning would have been like and reactions in similar circumstances and although I am familiar with transition and flight levels, I find myself going back to my books for some refresher work, 'just in case' .

As pointed out to me when I qualified, the PPL is a basic licence to advance upon. You never stop learning and Vince has reinforced that message for me so I thank Vince for prodding me back into action.

Hopefully, I will not find myself in similar situations encountered by Vince nor have similar decisions to make.

[Pace]

Bahn Jeaux

I can remember when I took up flying over 20 years ago I had an ill conceived idea in my head that I could use an aircraft like a car and with the same reliability of getting to my destination.

Follow the roads at 200 feet and all that. That idea was soon dispelled when i took up flying.

The problem with going anywhere especially in the UK is weather.

The days when you get CAVOK across the whole length of the UK are minimal meaning you can start off in good weather and soon find that changes putting new pilots in situations they are not equipt to deal with.

To use an aircraft with any reliability of getting there means the aircraft has to be equipt to deal with weather, icing etc. The aircraft has to be equipt to fly in clouds and preferably have two engines although many here wont agree with that :)

On top of the aircraft requirements are the pilots ability, ratings and experience.

Have a well equipt aircraft with a pilot with an IR and experience and he will be able to travel long distance most of the time with a good get there reliability.

Go down to a microlight which is really designed to travel pure VFR and where you can go with it is more limited.

There are pilots with bags of experience and know how who make a pretty good job of getting around in minimal VFR.

Then you get the newbies who are responsible, know their limitations, their aircraft limitations and operate within those limitations.

As their experience builds they may add ratings and expand their capability further.

Lastly you get pilots like our mr biggles who dont know what they are doing, who think they do and who end up in one big mess like our Mr Biggles.

Most people who nearly loose their lives like our Mr Biggles take stock, are humble and learn a big lesson which hopefully leads them to being better more experienced pilots.

Mr Biggles landed in a tree, he was very lucky the tree held the aircraft and that his aircraft did not fall vertically to the ground otherwise he may not be here to argue his case. That point seems to be lost on him.

The sad thing is that some people do not learn. They are in denial and those are the ones who become not only a danger to themselves but to others who come across their path.
I very much hope Mr Biggles isnt one of those as I hope he flies for years to come and does use this experience to learn from.

Pace

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Follow the roads at 200 feet and all that. That idea was soon dispelled when i took up flying.
Careful! - Munnyspinner is going to be "speechless" again!

[airborne_artist]

Originally Posted by avgh
I was advised to do a "Long Final" by the tower staying North of Dundee. I did not like the look of the oil rigs, a mast and the Tay bridge for a "long Final". Once under my instructor I called a "long final" from about 1.5 miles and he said that this was really only for airliners.
There were a lot of iffy decisions taken on the way to the trees, but this one was a shocker. It was, with hindsight, your last get-out-of-jail-free card, and you turned it down because you thought that 1.5 mile finals was "for airliners" - spectacular. If you could see the rigs, mast and bridge then you were fine, surely - just avoid them.

After all your faffing about in controlled airspace, this was a nice, easy to find (and huge) airfield. - it would have been worth your while to have made more of an effort, surely?

[worrab]

Thank goodness the tree did hold on to its prey and that Biggles gets his chance to learn from what must have been a challenging situation.

(I can't imagine otherwise that the AAIB would suggest something like <<The pilot attempted a pancake landing into the top of a tree>> .)

[yakker]

Vince Thanks for your reply.

But I still do not understand your fuel status. When you decided to divert for fuel, why fly almost directly over Perth and continue to Dundee?

What height were you at when you initiated your turn South towards the Tay, bearing in mind gliding clear.

[Gainesy]

Vince, iIread somewhere earlier in this thread that you travelled home wearing only pyjamas and a high vis waistcoat. Is this true and, if so why? Seriously, did you get a head injury in the accident, were you concussed?

[chrisN]

Pace, see your pm's. Chris N.

[Unusual Attitude]

"Thank goodness the tree did hold on to its prey and that Biggles gets his chance to learn from what must have been a challenging situation.

(I can't imagine otherwise that the AAIB would suggest something like <<The pilot attempted a pancake landing into the top of a tree>> .)"

Or indeed caused a 'flick' if mishandled and rolled the aircraft inverted at low level...

"CT jumped like a frightened rabbit as I snapped on full aileron Right and kicked full rudder left!) then pull back the stick to reduce speed"

Think I'd have taken my chances elsewhere knowing the Dundee area pretty well and the multitude of other 'off field' landing options.....each to his own however!

[Fly-by-Wife]

I was advised to do a "Long Final" by the tower staying North of Dundee.

How on earth can you do a "long final" to Dundee staying North of Dundee?

The airfield is south of the town. It would be very unusual for Dundee ATC to want you North of the airport - from the AIP:

flight in the ATZ to the North of Runway 09/27, and the extended centre-lines, is not normally permitted.

And the published circuit directions are:

Circuit directions: Runway 09 - RH; Runway 27 - LH. so arriving aircraft should therefore be South of the airport.

This information is also in Pooleys (which you claim to have been reading).

Or maybe you just got your North and South mixed up? A basic mistake, when you've been travelling North all day, to think that what is in front is North. Not very good situational awareness, though.

FBW

[140KIAS]

I'm quite familiar with Dundee having studied at College there for 2 years in my youth and more recently did some flight training there.

Long final for 27 would be the norm if coming in the from the north / north east. Route via Broughty Castle VRP (5nm to the east of 27) and then just south of the shoreline past the docks (with oil rig), road bridge (2nm east of 27) and rail bridge (1nm east 27). This avoids overflying the city.

Vince's tree is about 2.5nm north east of the 27 threshold. This would appear to suggest he was approaching from the north and advised to route via Broughty Castle for a long final to 27.

However if he did do a go around as has been suggested then I cant imagine why he would have ended up where he did. A LH circuit to the south over the Tay would have been the norm.

[Pace]

However if he did do a go around as has been suggested then I cant imagine why he would have ended up where he did. A LH circuit to the south over the Tay would have been the norm.

Quite simply the guy was overloaded and frankly didnt know what the hell he was doing and I think that probably answers most of the stuff here.

Pace

[TALLOWAY]

And still our hero did nothing wrong. Post 210 is more or less an accurate account of the controlled airspace transit. I, for one, will appreciate a formal investigation by the CAA of the airspace issues (as requested by the pilot) and for them to take appropriate action as a result.

As I see it, a late request to transit controlled airspace was made and granted. That's good.

The position reporting, knowledge of altimetry and airspace, and standard of RT was questionable - but something ATC, being professionals, could work around.

A request to climb was approved. That's good again.

A request to descend was requested. This was approved but only to an intermediate level. A clearance which our hero read back and acknowledged but then did not comply with. Good, right up until the non compliance.

The pilot was transferred to Edinburgh who had jurisdiction for further descent clearance. The pilot read back the correct frequency but made no contact. He seems to think a TMA controller, with professional knowledge of Scottish airspace and having spoken to Edinburgh to co-ordinate the flight, would transfer him to Inverness whilst above the River Forth. Now we are getting a deflection on the muppet-ometer :)

The pilot then ignores the fact he was only given a clearance to specific level, ignores the fact that he was not cleared to enter Edinburgh controled airspace, and ignores the fact that he is not in contact with any ATC agency to advise what he is doing, and descends willy nilly through the Edinburgh CTR.

Sorry Vince, but the balance of evidence points heavily to you being a muppet and potentially dangerous to the rest of us who fly and try to keep the reputation of GA piots high with the authorities.

[gpn01]

Quite simply the guy was overloaded and frankly didnt know what the hell he was doing and I think that probably answers most of the stuff here.

Pace

Well said. Not helped by news reporters asking questions before the dust has settled and allowed time for some introspection.

[Lomon]

I would have probably made his ill-fated flight at 2,500 feet as well, because that's where I'm most comfortable.

The 4300' mountain might have got in the way then!

[dont overfil]

Vince, when you're in a hole already, stop digging. Listen to what is being said. You appear to be stuck on permanent transmit.
DO.

[fisbangwollop]

No throw him another shovel......dont want to re-order my Beano just yet!:)

[mad_jock]

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4755/13082009261.jpg

This is the daddy thats going to spoil your day if your lucky enough to miss the other 20 odd 3000ft+ Munros on the way

[west lakes]

Not forgetting the odd hill between Barrow & TLA

[cats_five]

Yes, it is.
This incident, on the other hand, happened in Scotland, quite famous for it's large rugged mountains. :}

Indeed it is, but Dundee is well south of the Highland fault and surrounded by lots of large flat fields.

[jgs43]

This is the daddy thats going to spoil your day if your lucky enough to miss the other 20 odd 3000ft+ Munros on the way

AHH - To Digress - Ben Macdui on the right at 1309 metres and Braeriach on the left at 1296 metres. Must have been taken from around the Devil's Point at south end of the Lairig Ghru. Real Bandit country.:)

[mad_jock]

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7900/13082009265.jpg

You are correct sir. And the end of the Gru.

And before anyone gets excited there were no pax on board and I know that I would have been stuffed if the donk had gone. Cracking day for a ferry

[worrab]

Couldn't you have stalled onto the top of a nearby munro?

[RatherBeFlying]

I made a 90deg right turn at 30 degrees bank (onto South) towards the river. Immediately before the turn my LH fuel sightglass showed 5 litres plus. At the completion of the turn the engine stopped. I glanced at the sightglass and it was empty!So the next question would be how much fuel did the RH sightglass show at that point in time?

Another question would be how much experience you had flying the CT at similar fuel levels?

Given that in a right turn the wing would be up, one would think that it would take significant uncoordinated flight to unport that tank outlet, perhaps an uncoordinated levelling off interrupted the fuel flow.

But remember we are talking about the last 5 litres in a 65 l. tank. This is where interruptions in fuel feed can be expected.

A CTSW manual on the web (the accident a/c manual may be different) cites fuel capacity of 130 l. and usable fuel as 124 l. That would mean a total quantity indication of 6 l. is effectively empty.

A gauge inaccuracy of plus or minus 2 to 3 litres in a 65 l. tank becomes critical at this stage in the proceedings.

One can also suspect that such a low unusable fuel quantity requires coordinated flight and that any imbalance could considerably increase the quantity of unuseable fuel.

[Munnyspinner]

Vince,

again you have shown courtesy and restraint - where others haven't. I am getting a better picture of the latter stages of you flight, based on you last post. Dundee and Perth are both well known to most pilots in Scotland and many from the south too. However, you did not have the benefit of that local knowledge , which would have perhpas made a big difference.

I think there are lessons to be learned by many current and future PPLs in examining you flight and for that reason I think it is very helpful that you have taken the time , at this time of personal bereavement, to answer all questions very fully. This is an open forum and not a court of law you may be judged by the posters here ( harshly by some) but, as you say, much of that is based on hearsay evidence and supposition.

In considering the details available and ignoring the flight from the point your motor conked out, I think the lessons are.

Plan for more than one contingency - Your focus on Dundee may have seemed logical but, given the plethora of great airfields available, shown on the charts and in Pooleys your decision to go there looks dogmatic when you had no better knowledge of Dundee than anywhere else. Consider your alternatives.

Expect crap weather - long flights cannot be carried out without encountering variable weather conditions. From your own reports I think you were really pushing your luck spotting through the holes - at 7000', over unfamiliar territory , visual navigation isn't that easy when you can't see the whole picture. I suspect this contributed to your difficulties around Edinburgh where VRPs are easy to find - unless you don't know where you are.

Take decisions early - In continuing your flight to the North, past Perth, you eroded further your margin. This is perhaps academic but what if Dundee had been closed down by Haar, a training accident or you had to hold to allow for an inbound commercial movement - this used to be the norm. There was no way you would have made Kinloss without stopping, given that it had already taken 2 hours ( your words) to reach Edinburgh form Barrow ( a little over half way?) as soon as you were over the Forth you should have been making plans to divert. be that to Dundee or Perth. The goto button on my satnav is a preferred way of doublechecking my own maths and is handy but NOT my primary means of VFR navigation equipment.

If in doubt ask. Dundee was not familiar to you using only Pooleys and a 1:500000 chart you will be able to see that the airfiled is next to a River ( technically the biggest ( by volume) in the UK, which makes it pretty unmissiable ( even throuh holes in the cloud) If you were given a long final on 28 ( or is it 27 now?) that is going to put you well t o the east and, as you say you were joining from the North. The VRP at Broughty Castle is visible from well to the North as the land slopes down towards the water and there is nothing in the way. The Tay is only about 1nm wide until you get closer to the city and , from memory, if you aim at the centre of the road bridge you would be set up for a long final on the westerly runway. It sounds as if you hadn't go that far before the motor packed in and so this is academic. My only point is that If you don't know and airfield you should work out where things are well before you decide to land there. I would suggest that 10 mins with pooleys and a chart on the ground is going to make more of a difference to you than trying to look up the details whilst flying, descending, talking on the radio and trying to figure out where you are. ATC at Dundee have always been very helpful and if the tower knew you were unsure of your position they might have given you a few helpful hints. Maybe 10W can suggest whether this is good advice.

Question your own decisions - not as in what Biggles would have done but, just run through the what ifs one more time.

Finally, I don't know why a simple engine failure and survivable crash has attracted such vilification on this site. Even you walked away unscathed! However, if the circumstances of your transit throught the Scottish TMA over Edinburgh have been reported accuratley I suspect that your conduct of the whole flight does leave something to be desired. I would reflect on that and maybe try flying with a few different instructors in your new mount and listen to their feedback.

[Timothy]

Vince,

I have never landed in a tree, but something I do have in common with you is that I have been in an air crash close to Dundee and I have been rushed to Ninewells Hospital, together with my elderly parents and the pilot.

On that occasion the staff and facilties at Ninewells were beyond reproach, we simply could not have been treated better.

Yet earlier in this thread, before your first contribution, there were disparaging remarks made about Ninewells, which I have not seen you gainsay, despite your eagerness to argue with everything else that has been said.

Do you have anything nice to say about them, or were you not well treated?

Similarly, because our crash was a ditching, I found myself in Dundee with no clothes, no glasses, no mobile phone, no money and no credit cards, yet the wonderfully generous people of Dundee ensured that I got everything I needed on credit and trust. Did you find Dundee so unwelcoming that you really had to travel home in your jim-jams?

This is an example of what I mean. (http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2003/10/28/newsstory5293302t0.asp)

[Munnyspinner]

Timothy,

Would that have been in the TBM700? I was flying out of Perth that evening and remember hearing the balloon go up.

Your experience of Dundonians was perhaps more typical than Vince's grumblings. ask nicely and you will receive. I suspect the dayglos vest and PJs was an invention of the press but I stand to be corrected.

[wingnut56]

I've never felt inclined to register for PPRune before, but this one incident has pushed me over the edge.

Some of the posts on this thread have been pure conjecture, but many, many replies have hit the nail right on the head - this guy was an accident waiting to happen.

Just to put the record straight for those who somehow got it wrong - 'Biggles' did not do a go-around at Dundee - the closest he got was the tree 3nm from the airfield.

If I ever fouled up so badly that I found myself flying an aircraft with so little fuel in the tanks (below min useable by all accounts) I would be conserving enough height to reach an airfield - especially if that involved flying over a built up area to get there.

I'm beginning to wonder if he was already gliding, deadstick, and not wanting to let on. Why else allow yourself to get so low over a city?

Caird Park is well inside the city boundaries - therefore within the built-up area in my book. There are lots of housing schemes to the north of where he crashed.

It would probably have been a good idea to declare an emergency when running virtually on fumes, apparently he didn't do that either.
The Mayday only came when the engine stopped.
A little birdy tells me that the call went something like, "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday I've run out of fuel!"

Now he claims he didn't run out. :ugh:

The long list of problems with this pilot and this one flight will be keeping someone very busy for some time. I hope they do something about him - by that I mean more than just a tap on the wrist and a bit of advice, which seems to be the norm for the few who operate in this manner.

[mad_jock]

Timothy I am sorry if you took my comment about ninewells to heart.

I concure that Dundonians are warm hearted and honest folk.

Ninewells in 2005 had huge problems with MRSA.

[yakker]

'Biggles' did not do a go-around at Dundee - the closest he got was the tree 3nm from the airfield.

Some have said he did do a go around, others say not. So which is it?

[Crash one]

With the amount of flak that Vince is getting I'm beginning to feel a little sorry for the poor sod.
Vince. No doubt you will soon be deluged with books from the various authorities that you have upset, may I suggest you read a book, if you have time between interviews of course. It is entitled "The Killing Zone" by Paul A Craig. How & why Pilots Die.
It is an American book but applicable to any part of the world, or even the planet that you come from.
The basic gist of most of it is. Do not leave your comfort zone until you are very familiar with the current edges of it. I am quite serious when I say it should be read as part of the syllabus alongside the training manuals 2 4 6 & 7.
Perhaps you should read it as you next consider planning such a trip. 200+ nm with the latter part over hostile injun territory, in an a/c with a known fuel delivery problem under certain circumstances. To a destination that you had to be at, with a deadline, & with very few hours under your belt. The weather over most of Fife that day was not good with rain squalls & low cloud.
The pictures are great by the way, but there were about 50nm of views like that ahead of you & each way sideways, absolutely nowhere to put it.
This may be why many of us are so speechless at your intentions let alone performance.

[VP959]

So the next question would be how much fuel did the RH sightglass show at that point in time?

Another question would be how much experience you had flying the CT at similar fuel levels?

Given that in a right turn the wing would be up, one would think that it would take significant uncoordinated flight to unport that tank outlet, perhaps an uncoordinated levelling off interrupted the fuel flow.

But remember we are talking about the last 5 litres in a 65 l. tank. This is where interruptions in fuel feed can be expected.

A CTSW manual on the web (the accident a/c manual may be different) cites fuel capacity of 130 l. and usable fuel as 124 l. That would mean a total quantity indication of 6 l. is effectively empty.

A gauge inaccuracy of plus or minus 2 to 3 litres in a 65 l. tank becomes critical at this stage in the proceedings.

One can also suspect that such a low unusable fuel quantity requires coordinated flight and that any imbalance could considerably increase the quantity of unuseable fuel.

Vince kindly replied earlier in this thread to the point about min usable fuel being around the fuel level he admitted to having just about the time that the engine stopped. He has apparently received confirmation that his aircraft was safe down to 1/2 litre remaining.

Given the long history of fuel cross feed problems on this aircraft type, and the firmly worded warning about the consequences of flying it out of balance when low on fuel, I find the statement that it's OK down to 1/2 litre frankly unbelievable.

Every high wing microlight with wing tanks that I know of (with the exception of one that sensibly has a conical collector tank fitted in the fuselage) tends to suffer from fuel flow difficulties of some sort when the wings aren't level or at low fuel levels. If it were me, I'd have not been comfortable continuing my flight with less than about 10 litres or so remaining. I believe that the US manual, which gives 124 litres as the usable fuel, from a nominal 130 litre capacity is a reasonable figure. Quite why it isn't in the TADS for the UK microlight version is a bit of a mystery.

VP

[wingnut56]

Some have said he did do a go around, others say not. So which is it?

No go-around. Trust me, I should know. ;)

I think the confusion came from reports of him flying PAST Dundee before turning back and people getting hold of the wrong end of the stick.

[mad_jock]

Crash one

Not quite that bad, you have a couple of usable ones in the lin of dee area , a decent clear track at Derry lodge and once your over the other side the spey valley has some options.

Going up the A9 is just as bad with big sections having nothing but the road.

But in essence you are correct and the same applies for alot of the highland region

[yakker]

Thanks Wingnut, I didn't think Biggles had from his report of what happened.

people getting hold of the wrong end of the stick.
What on here, no, never.:)

[Stonebase]

'Biggles' did not do a go-around at Dundee - the closest he got was the tree 3nm from the airfield. Some have said he did do a go around, others say not. So which is it?


A friend i spoke to over the weekend says he certainly didnt do a go around at Dundee. Aparently turned away from the field at the Castle, with a couple of thousand feet to spare. Last thing they heard was Mayday, Mayday, now out of fuel! No further transmissions were heard!!!

I do have to admit to being of the non flying community but i have had a fair few flights out of Dundee. I do however feel that i can pick out the wheat fae the chaff as it were and all i can say is, good luck in keeping this story up Vince! I hope, along with others i have spoken to, that the AAIB will take a very good look at this tale!

I just wonder though, when you had the engine failure Vince, why didnt you turn towards the airport?

And why did you not like the look of the 200-300ft oil rigs and transmitter you would have flown in between? The Dundee joining traffic manages to miss them all the time! And as Timothy will confirm, Dundee Airport has a very useful Hovercraft if things get that wrong over the water!!!

[fisbangwollop]

Mad Jock.....The Gru and at the same time getting a first class Basic service from myself??? :ok::ok:

[Crash one]

Mad-Jock
Thanks for that. I stand corrected.
I am only a 150hrs wimp at the moment. Went to Oban once so far, nice country but I did have 60 litres before dep on the way back at 18lph.

[Cows getting bigger]

Just a thought - the AAIB aren't obliged to investigate this accident.:\ They may well just ask the pilot for a written report which is then regurgitated in a bulletin.

[mad_jock]

Nothing wrong with being not happy with the "risk factor" I certainly don't consider it a wimp to not be happy with doing it.

I have been flying that area of scotland for getting on for 7 years now and when I was instructing full time I was doing the trip to Dundee sometimes 3 times a week.

And getting brought up in Aberdeen I have been walking in those Glens for 20 odd years.

Personally I wouldn't go north of Perth/Dundee without 2.5 hours of gas on board. And you might ask why so much. Basically if the runway gets shut at Inv I have enough to go up to Dornock and wait there. If the wx goes to poo I have enough to get to Abz or at a push back to an ILS in the central belt.

[yakker]

Stonebase

turned away from the field at the Castle, with a couple of thousand feet to spare

With a glide ratio of 14:1 he could have made the airfield then.:confused:

[wingnut56]

'Aparently turned away from the field at the Castle, with a couple of thousand feet to spare.'


More duff gen I'm afraid. Never got near the castle. If he had there's
a lovely long beach or grass strip to land on.


.....a few trees to aim at though. :D

[140KIAS]

Does this mean that the donk went at Broughty Castle ?


Went to Oban once so far


And what a fine day it was :ok:

[Roffa]

Just a thought - the AAIB aren't obliged to investigate this accident. They may well just ask the pilot for a written report which is then regurgitated in a bulletin.

If, as has been intimated, Scottish have filed CA939 reports (Report on Alleged Infringements of Air Navigation Legislation) then it will at least be investigated by AR&E at the CAA. As it's now got a rather high profile, who knows what AAIB will do...

Never mind the r/t transcript, I'd be more interested to hear the phone transcripts/recordings between Scottish and Edinburgh!

[AJWTCX]

Interesting to think about the AAIB. When i first saw the story I thought, ah he's misjudged a glide etc, then he opened his mouth. Im sure the thread would of only been a few pages long.

I do wonder if the AAIB are in a similar boat now, if Vince hadnt opened his mouth he would of got away with just the pilot report.

Vince, Surly this whole thing has at least made you learn a few things?! Have you insurers said if they are going to pay out yet?

[007helicopter]

I know I have learn't that if ever I am unfortunate to have an incident and survive I will not be sharing the experience on pprune let alone the press.

Vince for what its worth "good luck"

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I know I have learn't that if ever I am unfortunate to have an incident and survive I will not be sharing the experience on PPRuNe let alone the press.

Vince for what its worth "good luck"
Actually plenty of us do post details when we screw something up, either here or in the other place (as I did recently), in the hope both of learning from others and of warning others.

[AJWTCX]

I dont think Vince is at fault for talking on here, just talking in so much detail. If he hadnt of spoke to the press or had simply said, the engine cut out, lets wait for the AAIB report it would of all blown over...

Lets just wait for 6 months time when the report comes out...

[Pace]

Vince is most certainly colourful and we do need characters like him to brighten up this grey society.

he certainly pepped up this forum no end. Vince when you do get the replacement aircraft paint Biggles on the side so we know you are coming. i am sure you will get a warm welcome just land on the runway not the nearest tree :)

i too wish you the best and hope you havent damaged your cause with all this high profile thing.

Pace

[Timothy]

Would that have been in the TBM700?
Yup, that was the one. Cold, the Tay in October :(

[avgh]

Hi Yakker

Quote from an e-mail from one of them - I am sure he will not mind!

"As far as PPrune is concerned it is (and nearly always was) used as a
whinging arena for people who have to hide behind strange names who then moan about everyone except themselves. I used to read (and use) the forum but for the same reasons I have not looked at it for a long while.

You are welcome here anytime, I have planted a few saplings to make you
feel at home but the runways are an awful lot easier and you don't need
a ladder to climb out of the aircraft."

I have taken a different view, and come on the forum in an open mided way to hear and reply to sensible criticism. Whilst some members have treated this in the spirit in which it is intended, others seem to indulge themselves in being plain unpleasant. Maybe it is unusual for a "zero" to do this. Perhaps you might, yakker, ask yourself why? And what do you fly? Are you a professional pilot, an amateur or what? Perhaps you might give your real name too? It would be nice to know YOUR level of expertise that gives you the right to criticise MINE!

And maybe you'd like to explain the fuel that was, as I predicted, found in the Port wing tank after recovery of the aircraft. Perhaps, in my pyjamas, I busted the police cordon with a can from a local garage and climbed the tree to fill the tank?

If I had done that, you would at least expect me to have a film crew on standby!

I look forward to hearing YOUR answers to MY questions.

Respectfully as ever,

Vince

007 Helicopter (great name!) thank you, Vince

[avgh]

Pace - thank you. I have followed your comments with interest.

When I first heard that this forum was being quoted in the Press I was puzzled. I have known a number of pro pilots (including RAF) and none of them would criticise a fellow pilot based on press reports alone.

It took me ages to get into the thread - mostly cos my glasses and spare pair were up a tree and my old ones here prevented me from seeing the funny numbers and letters and stuff. Then I noticed the refresh and simply click it until I see something legible.

Once in I decided that there was so much "disinformation" that I would quietly feed in real info.

For those who listened I am grateful Those who sought to undermine me, construct alternative scenarios, fantasise, speculate I can consider that this is a rumour forum and that is fair enough.

However, the abusive and hostile comments from some make me query whether this sort of anonymity is a good thing.

I still believe it is entirely wrong for comments of any sort made on this anonymous forum should be made into Press headlines. the Press can have their day when the Enquiry has done its work. In the meantime speculate on, but only expect to be taken seriously if you also listen.

Pace - I exclude you from these comments as you are one who has listened and thought! Vince







Vince

[avgh]

Timothy

I have nothing but praise for the golfers who called immediately to get services on site, the rescue service, police and hospital. They coordinated well and I was really well looked after. I did say that in the Press interviews and it was widely reported at the time. My apologies if that was not made clear to this forum.

The dark blue pyjamas, with a belt and my high viz jacket made me look like a hospital/rail worker I supposed. I left the hospital to get some clothes from a local tesco or something but while waiting had a message from the police that the plane was being removed so I went straght to the park.

Unfortunately my sprained ankle prevented me from walking to the site and no electric buggies were available so I went to the club house and the taxi driver (who plays on the course) kindly walked up to the tree. He reported nothing was happening there after all and that no time was being predicted. (all the club officials were away that day or maybe someone would have found me a buggy. The professional was giving a lesson....)

So I went home, catching the 14:00 from Edinburgh for Kings Cross where my wife met me with clothes. Wanting to see my wife and younger son was a powerful attraction, but I did have the funeral of my first wife's mother to arrange for Monday so home looked good. Husbands and parents will I am sure understand. Vince

[SoundBarrier]

I have been reading this thread with much interest, besides my feeble attempt at a mass of puns in the first page or two.

I think the key here is learnings, we have a rare opportunity on this board to discuss the situation with the poor pilot involved. Pitty Chesley B Sullenberger the 3rd was not available to discuss it with us, but looking at some of the attacking posts maybe it was a good thing.

We're waiting on the report yes, and maybe Vince was a bit early in giving information on the forum, maybe, but hey, lets be civil and gain from someone else's experience.

Who knows what I would have done, I had an engine failure in a 182 once, but I had many a field to choose. Looking over other territory I am loathed to look into a canopy as a potential forced landing site.

I must be in a rambling mood so I'll bugger off...Vince, thanks for hanging round, sorry to hear about your Mother In Law.

SB

[avgh]

airpolice

Sorry I do recall seeing your questions way back, but clearly omitted to answer them. I have printed them so refer to the questions in order.

Why Barrow? The front that was expected later in the evening hit the Lakes about three hours early (confirmed by Barrow tower). I was en route to East Kirkbride where a taxi was waiting to take me to Grasmere to see my nephew's family. (he is a "lapsed" PPL)

It was looking murky over towards Leeds Bradford, but bright by the coast so I diverted to the coast and chose to land at Barrow rather than go back to Woodvale, where I had landed a couple of weeks back to see sick mother in law.

Barrow is the most welcoming field I know and also a great base for the Lakes (bus via Windermere or Kendal) I am trying to attach the picture sent me just now by them, when inviting me back after the incident, but with no success.

Re ATC - most postings seem to be derived from one comment. The record will confirm my account. There is a warning on this site that not all postings are what they seem....

Re divert to Carlisle - no need as I had sufficient under normal conditions to get to Kinloss direct with a healthy margin (the exact amounts are on the flight notes and in the a/c). We (ie the Head of Flight Operations, the airfield manager and I all discussed the most sensible fuel stop and it was Dundee. I had plenty of fuel to go there, even after having burned the Kinloss margin in the climb. 10 litres measured at straight and level was quite enough for Dundee.

From Barrow I went at efficient cruise speed under cloud round the headland to the Solway Firth, missing Sellafield well to the East of the railway as instructed by Barrow. Joined the straight line route at the head of the Firth and commenced to climb above clouds.

Fuel at departure was checked and double checked and is in my pilots notes as above. Fuel burn was because I clumbed steeply to get above cloud north of Solway Firth. The clouds were confirmed by another contributor. Fuel was watched throughout the flight, but Kinloss assessed and rejected in favour of fuel pick up at Dundee after leaving Edinburgh.

I have self criticisms of the flight that I shall make to the Inspector, but really it was properly planned with the assistance of three pilots, fuel assessed as planned and diverted as planned. If the engine had cut 30 seconds earlier I had a perfectly adequate crop field (is there Farmers site like this?). If it had cut 30 seconds later I should have ended in shallow water, if there is no beach. If it had not been for "competition day" at the course I might have landed safely on a fairway.

Please note that the engine panel, transponder and satnav have all survived and are being handed to the technical inspector by the loss adjustor. I trust that he will have my charts, Pooleys and flight notes or that they will be in "lost property" held by the police.

Once again, sorry if I seemed to be ignoring you. Vince

SoundBarrier - trust you prefer jets with a name like that!? Vince

PS the taxi from Grasmere that was a EK came all the way to Barrow to collect me. What a hero! Vince

[SoundBarrier]

Vince,

Sound Barrier is more of a goal than an experience, well actually the other way round. I don't want to get to the Barrier of Sound for fear of breaking up. I only fly pistons with a little turbine time.

"Avoid the Sound Barrier"

hehe.

[avgh]

Sound Barrier.

How is it flying a turbine? I flew round the volcanoes of hawaii a couple of months ago (as a passenger, the volcanoes were safe!) behind a turboprop and could not believe the deathly silence and thrust.

Is there a technical difficulty with developing a small. light t/prop for small a/c or is it an economic one?

I have often seen small gas turbine jets on model aircraft so I would assume that the power/weight ratio can be within some useable limits. Anyone care to make a fortune?

And there is the guy who flew the channel in a winged suit recently - he had (was it 4?) of the little jets driving him.

So why are we small aircraft stuck with technology that dates to the last century but one, however well developed since? Did Whittle (1907 - 1996) live in vain?? Vince

[Squadgy]

Hi Vince.

I also fly a CTSW, so I'm genuinely interested to learn from this incident.

When you say

10 litres measured at straight and level was quite enough for Dundee.

Can you confirm that you calculated your fuel burn as being 10ltrs between Barrow and Dundee? Just a rough measurement suggests the distance as being 140nm on a direct track. Assuming a cruise of say 110 knots using 14ltrs per hour I'm struggling to see how 10ltrs could be adequate. Does the 10 ltrs include or exclude the 6ltrs unusable (the aircraft I fly has this clearly placarded).

Also, what type of flight display was fitted to your aircraft. Was it the Brauniger AlphaMFD 'LCD' style display or the Dynon EFIS system, (the latter will show fuel to destination if coupled to a GPS). Both systems however do not directly measure fuel in the tanks - they rely on the pilot setting the onboard fuel level prior to flight based on dipping the tanks. When were the fuel tanks last dipped? I'm curious about this as you mentioned that you 'diverted along the coast to land at Barrow' - Did this use additional fuel? Barrow does not normally have either MoGAS of Avgas available.

Thank you.

[yakker]

Hi Vince,

Ah, the 'hero to zero' comment hurt. But IF you ran out of fuel then the statement is true.

As you choose to only answer questions you want to answer, I will do the same.

explain the fuel that was, as I predicted, found in the Port wing tank after recovery

the 6ltrs unusable (the aircraft I fly has this clearly placarded)

The problem Vince is you have given an outline as to what happened, but when someone asks a specific question and you choose not to give an answer, and then someone else provides the information that seems credible and informed, that is used instead (rightly or wrongly).

As I have said before just trying to understand what happened, the final criticism (if there is any) will come from the CAA.

Yakker (just a PPL)

[pilotmike]

...but only expect to be taken seriously if you also listen.

Pace - I exclude you from these comments as you are one who has listened and thought! Vince
Wot??!! A lesson on listening and thinking from the intrepid Mr H???:\ Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Someone else put it rather politely in an earlier post:-

" You seem to be stuck on transmit."

But as you seem incapable of shutting up, listening and learning, Mr H, this one is very clearly for you:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

[avgh]

and one for you pilotmike: You may be better informed by all this but you are none the wiser! Vince

[BabyBear]

Vince,

Do you honestly believe your contributions here are in your best interest?

[avgh]

Squadgy. I wrote a long note to you, took some calls, returned and the damn thing was swallowed up when I had to log in again. Should have copied it before logging in!

On reflection I would like to talk through the detail with you but this would not be of interest to non CT owners. You can find my phone number (don't use the mobile as it is still in Dundee - somewhere) easily across the net, if you can get past the biggles bit!

Do call and I should like tio tell you about the experience.

Warm regards, Vince

ALL

I have spoken to the AAIB yesterday and today and they are getting on with the job. I have referred them initially to my posts on this site since it seems pointless writing another report when most of the detail is available in serial form.

This does mean that the AAIB will definitely get to see your postings, so you can be sure that no possibility that you raise will be ignored by officialdom.

Any CT owners who may have any issues with what I have written are welcome to get in touch by phone - but not on my mobile as that is still missing. A bit of googling (I am going to regret this - what if Yakker calls? will he give me his REAL name? Will he land in the tree at the bottom of my garden?) will get a contact number at home or work.

I really appreciate this enforced introduction to a rumour site - and can see that in some circumstances they could prove quite useful in uncovering "hidden" issues.

I am also pleased to have been able to exchange views with some really interested and interesting people I might not have ever met otherwise.

All the best to all of you, even those who think shooting is too good for me! Vince
Planned as "the last posting"

[pilotmike]

You may be better informed by all this but you are none the wiser! Vince

Ha!

I strongly doubt that anyone is better informed by anything you have said Mr H.

However, where we somehow agree is that nobody, not even you, have become any wiser. You're still 'stuck on transmit' I notice. Give it a break, please. You give every impression of being a complete furkin idiot who, apart from having many major aviation failings, just doesn't know when to shut up.

[Torque Tonight]

I have referred them [the AAIB] initially to my posts on this site since it seems pointless writing another report when most of the detail is available in serial form.

And that is surely the most curious example of decision making in this whole sorry saga. Good luck. I reckon you might need it!

[Squadgy]

Vince - many thanks for your offer. Please check your private messages.

[mad_jock]

Vince although this site allows people to use handles to cover thier identity it doesn't take long to work out who does what job, what hardware they drive and what their experence is.

Also quite a few meet up for beers. The controller who has given the "other side" of the story not only have I had acouple of beers with but also I have done a couple of hours in an aircraft before they renewed thier SEP and a fine pair of hands he had as well (apart from when he took my head off the ceiling)

You have three issues going on which I must admit most are lumping together.

The first one is your issues with ATC about controlled airspace. You will notice I haven't commented on this. But the posters on the subject from Scottish I can assure you have access to tapes and radar plots of what happened. And I believe you do have issues to deal with this.If I were you I would phone Scottish and ask to speak a manager and find out what they are saying.

The second one is your flight planning of the the route. I really don't see this as a henious crime, like PACE my exposure to the GA community has proved that you are not alone in getting into difficulties on this one.

The third is why the engine conked out when it did. Personally I think it was because of a technical issue linked with inexperence. Your thought proccesses of planting it where you did again comes down to inexperence. I hope they do a full investigation on the trip. If they do I for one will be using it for training other pilots.

Now you questions about turbines. First of all they are very hungry for fuel at low altitudes my own aircaft uses nearly double at 5000ft compared to FL230.

Second propellers are way more efficent than ducted fans which is why the turboprop market is becoming very strong, the whole economics compared to jets is remarkable when you start digging into it. Only down side is they are noisy and pax prefer jets. This is being worked on with active noise cancelation and other tricks.

The operation of a turbine is way more simple than a piston engine. Once you have got it started (some types take a bit more monitoring than others) it really is a very simple one lever operation (variable pitch prop issues outstanding)

So the idea is actually a good one but unfortunatly its not a viable option for VFR low level tourer. For a pilot to make it economic you need to fly high in controlled airspace and we know the dangers of that ;)

[biscuit74]

From Vince's precent post -

"I have spoken to the AAIB yesterday and today and they are getting on with the job. I have referred them initially to my posts on this site since it seems pointless writing another report when most of the detail is available in serial form".

ROFLMAO. As I expect the AAIB will be , when not doing their officially serious bit.

I think the appropriate word, Vince, is Chutzpah !

It would be nice to believe you are unique, though sadly.. 'Nuff said.

[Cows getting bigger]

I have spoken to the AAIB yesterday and today and they are getting on with the job. I have referred them initially to my posts on this site since it seems pointless writing another report when most of the detail is available in serial form.

Vince, I'm not sure you actually realise the seriousness of the predicament you found yourself in. OK, I guess you had a quick chat with you maker after the engine failed and subsequently breathed a sigh of relief when you clambered out of the wreckage. However, your subsequent actions/words are, to say the least, bizarre and must cast doubt on you competence as a pilot; to point the AAIB at a number of pprune posts rather than filing a formal report is frankly out of order. :=

To summarise, you had a notifiable crash and are required by law to report certain details (link at Air Accidents Investigation: Reporting an accident (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/reporting_an_accident/index.cfm)). You've got into a bit of a mess entering discussions here and consequently your recollection of actual events may have been slewed. Furthermore, whilst the AAIB will not apportion blame the authorities (ie CAA/police) may well look at an AAIB report and decide to take things further. As others have suggested, shut up, write a proper, objective and comprehensive report (don't post it here) and present it to the AAIB.

[BabyBear]

I have spoken to the AAIB yesterday and today and they are getting on with the job. I have referred them initially to my posts on this site since it seems pointless writing another report when most of the detail is available in serial form.

That's the spirit you show them who's boss Vince!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

although this site allows people to use handles to cover thier identity it doesn't take long to work out who does what job, what hardware they drive and what their experence is
As an example of how easy this is, I once posted elsewhere (a place where I use my real name, nothing to do with aviation) "what's my PPRuNe handle?" and someone came back with the right answer in not-very-many minutes. Going the other way - from my PPRuNe handle to my real name - must be even easier. (I'd be using my real name on PPRuNe except that at the time I joined essentially nobody at all used their real name, and I didn't want to look odd.)

[mad_jock]

There was me thinking you were called Gertrude in real life :p

[Re-Heat]

VH,

Please don't ignore an AAIB request for information by referring them here. It is not really cricket to ask them to trawl through the posts on here.

All they want at this stage is succinct facts from your recollection of the incident.

May I suggest you rewrite the form, or request another if you have already sent it off. The AAIB are a bunch of professional pilots, engineers and investigators who do not have the inclination to become involved in a debate on a bulletin board.

Thanks

[youngskywalker]

Unless you actually go to the the bother of tracing his IP address then how do you actually even know that you are chatting with the unfortunate Biggles hero on here anyway?? He could be a troll! I'm sure it is him but can they really use this in any future court case? I personally think far too much importance is placed on these anonymous forums. Even tracing an IP address, what does that prove? I had three different friends all using my PC a few years ago and logging onto pprune, was I liable for what they posted?

Having said all that, if I were Vince I would NOT be posting on here!!...But then maybe I am Vince....wibble....:\

[BabyBear]

Come on guys', our Vince (if it is Vince) is having a laugh, isn't he???

[Unusual Attitude]

Vince, as Mad Jock states, though we 'hide behind' user names the aviation world in Scotland is a very small one and many of us know who each other is.

For example, just on this thread alone, I was at OATS with Mad Jock many years ago and have had many a pint with him (I also remember him walking the streets of Oxford barefoot but that’s another story!). I have been on a couple of nights out in EDI many moons ago with 10W and enjoyed one of the hottest currys known to man. I have flown in close formation with CRX only a few months ago and we share a passion for a certain 'rubber band U/C' little aircraft. I have also been on the receiving end of a very good service from Fishbang and his team many times in a variety of aircraft.....thats to name but a few...

I have tried my best not to pass judgement to this point but I suspect as many others have suggested that you co-operate fully with the AAIB and take on board any recommendations they make with regards to further training requirements.

Best of luck however it goes and hopefully you'll come out the other side a better and safer pilot!

UA

[Munnyspinner]

Having watched this thread develop over the past week I do wonder about what makes some PPRuNers tick.

Vince has given his side of the story, if AVGH is indeed Biggles, which illustrates that , no matter how well we think we plan, things can go wrong. Initially I was somewaht sceptical about how the accident came about and quationed the ability of the pilot. However, what I have realised is that we all look at things slightly differently and there are not always rights and wrongs.

OK, if there has been an ATC infringement that does need to be seriously investigated and the AAIB need to be satisfied that there are no inherent problems with the aircraft design that contributed to the accident.

Frankly, until there is a full report we don't know and can't tell if fuel exhaustion was a cause or only a contributory factor ( fuel starvation due to low levels). As for his flight planning I can think of 20 different ways to plan a route from Barrow to Kinloss to avoid terrain, controlled airspace, obstacles, low cloud, etc. etc. and have any number of potential diversion airfields available as I flew north. Would any of these be any better than the direct track with Dundee as an diversion? - only in my opinion. And that's my point.

VH and any pilot should be free to plan what he/she sees as the most suitable route given the A/C available and the prevailing weather conditions. The responsibility rests with the PIC.

Was this flight carried out safely - I cannot judge, based on the hearsay evidence here. Certainly, there appear to have been issues with ATC at Scottish and around Edinburgh and, with hindsight, Vince may have cause to consider whether this transit at his chosen height was wise. If an infringement did occur then technically safety has been compromised.

The fuel planning is a matter for reflection because the decision to divert was made after the point at which it would have been obviuos thet Kinloss couldn't have been reached on remaining fuel. However, if there were 50 mins available this should have been plenty to divert to Dundee or an alternate.

If you accept Vince's account the engine failue may have been as a result of a low fuel state. The forced landing in the tree may have been as a result on inexperience and no PPLs practice forced landings enough. And even when they do they often make a mess of things when it happens for real - fact!

I didn't hear any of the radio work on the day but what goes for good RT in club flying will often sound amateurish against the clipped tones of professionals. Again, maybe some retraining is required but without a full transcript I will not judge.

Finally, can I say that I have heard some absolute howlers from fully trained commercial pilots at Edinburgh and elsewhere. Many are from foreign crew but there have been plenty form those that should know better. The best/worst of these was a Russian military A/C leaving edinburgh with a faulty transponder. They had no squawk and were told that Scottish wouldn't be able to acept them without one. These guys took off, turned right across the city and were last heard reporting enroute via newcastle!

[StillStanding]

This thread has made entertaining reading if nothing else - but it could have been even better if it had happened a year or so ago and he had diverted to Oban!

[VP959]

One thing useful to have come out of this debate has been that what some of us take for granted as being common knowledge is often no such thing.

For all his faults, Vince seems to have been completely unaware of the potential fuel indication and flow problems from a high wing, relatively flat dihedral aircraft with wing tanks. Most of us with experience of these types will probably be only too familiar with the potential isses, particularly those with experience of one or two of the microlights with this configuration that have had problems in the past (the Foxbat and CT spring to mind as two obvious candidates).

Vince seems to have been unaware that the usable fuel was less than the total fuel by 6 litres. He also seems to have been unaware of the fuel cross feed problem that can occur if the aircraft is flown slightly out of balance (as might be slightly more likely in a microlight that is just one-up and has no aileron trim).

In my own mind, based largely on Vince's own testimony, I'm certain that fuel starvation was the reason for the engine stoppage. I wonder if anyone thought to check the float bowls for fuel after the accident? If they were found to be empty then this would be a pretty good confirmation that this is what happened.

Having a few litres of fuel in the tank after the aircraft had run out of fuel would be completely normal for this type, of that I'm sure, so this is no proof at all that lack of fuel wasn't the cause.

How many pilot's aren't familiar with the technical details of their aircraft? It's in the syllabus for microlight pilots and I know that the old GFT included a bit on the ground at the end where the pilot was given an oral test of his/her understanding of some of the technical quirks of his/her aircraft. I wonder if this is still the case?

It seems clear that Vince was under the serious misapprehension that he had enough usable fuel for his journey, when it seems very obvious to some of us that he didn't and should have planned to take on fuel much sooner than he did.

I was always taught that trip planning included 30 mins extra reserve fuel for loitering about, extra climbs etc, plus however much extra was needed to take account of any probable en-route diversions due to weather. I think I'd have probably planned on about 45 mins to 1 hours extra fuel for the last leg of Vince's trip (Barrow to Kinloss), based on the information we've been given here.

Microlight fuel burn is notoriously susceptible to a wide variation, based on density, climb profiles, weight etc, which adds another big variable into the equation. My old microlight would cruise one-up with a burn of around 8 litres per hour, but could easily be pushed up to 12 litres per hour with a few long climbs, or in bad conditions (a 50% increase is significant if you've only got a small tank!). I always used to assume that it'd burn 12 litres per hour, then be pleasantly surprised if I didn't need to make a planned fuel stop. In my view I was being sensible, but my guess is that Vince might think I was just being daft not to assume that I'd always only burn 8 litres per hour...........

VP

[Timothy]

(I'd be using my real name on PPRuNe except that at the time I joined essentially nobody at all used their real name, and I didn't want to look odd.)
Well, I might look odd compared to the rest of you, but I would seriously question who is out of step here.

Of course there are reasons why ATCOs and Professional Pilots prefer to remain anonymous, but those reasons do not apply to amateurs and I am quite sure that most people use their funny names simply because they feel like they are playing Secret Seven or Swallows and Amazons.

I am equally sure that the reason that people on here get so rude and unpleasant is because of the anonymity. I know that anyone who cares can find my eMail address and telephone number in seconds and that is a really good incentive not to call people w@nkers, to$$ers and complete furkin morons.

I wish a few others on here would change step.

I am more commonly on two other aviation forums. On PPL/IR real names are de rigeur and no-one is rude or unpleasant. On Flyer it is about half in half and Ian Seager occasionally has to tell us off and here it is 99/1 anonymity and no constructive dialogue is possible without people becoming unpleasant.

Surely the link can be made?

[mad_jock]

Nice summary Munnyspinner.

[T18]

Well said Timothy, this thread has become very personal, rude and insulting. I believe that some posters have missed the point of the the forum.

Lets keep it professional people!

It is entertaining though, mind you if anyone prefers real vitriolic, check out the microlight web site!

[mad_jock]

Please provide a link

And after reading some of the microlight forums I don't think anyone here is taring the whole of the microlight community over this event.

Although your flex wings are a pain in the arse in the circuit and I wish you could strap something to them to paint on primary radar. :p

[T18]

Mad Jock,

I did not suggest that there is an agenda against mirolighters, for your information, I fly sep, occasionally P2 in microlights including the CTSW.

Check out BMAA microlight forum for some real ding dongs!

Regards
T18

[mad_jock]

I agree it wasn't yourself, it was actually to a post on that very site, with a link to this thread.

[Molesworth 1]

The level of rudeness on this forum comes as a huge shock when one first encounters it. Certain posters set themselves up as aviation experts and poo-poo anything anyone with alleged less experience has to say.

After a while one learns to separate the wheat from the chaff and benefit from those who make a genuine contribution.

It goes without saying that not every poster is what they make themselves out to be.

As to using real names - well, taking the above into account is that not difficult to understand?

The laugh about this thread is that usually this kind of thread goes on endlessly about the stupidity of some or pilot who is now dead. In this case the pilot is alive and well and very much in the discussion!

[tuscan]

Molesworth,

I would not call it shocking just typical. I wish I could sort out the wheat from the chaff but as with most flying forums there is little to gain except some entertainment from threads involving accidents.
No doubt I`ll get slated for saying so but I couldn`t give a toss.

If this thread ever gets back on track I`ll buy everyone a pint, including biggles himself:ok:

[pulse1]

And, I suspect, winding a few of you up.

[T18]

Tuscan

Does anyone know what has happened to the CT wreckage, will it have gone to an AAIB site?

Ps can I claim my pint now??

[Lister Noble]

What are the major points contributing to this accident ,and how to help pilots avoid them.
There,is that serious enough,and I'm just off to the pub,so how will I know if you've bought my pint?
Lister:)

[JW411]

What a shame that our hero was headed north. I wonder what the outcome would have been if he had been tooling around in the London TMA at 9,000 ft? It is certainly a fascinating thought.

Were the trained killers at Leuchars on standby or what?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I have spoken to the AAIB yesterday and today and they are getting on with the job. I have referred them initially to my posts on this site since it seems pointless writing another report when most of the detail is available in serial form.
Upon reflection that does it for me.

Whilst that's still a fair way from getting locked up for contempt, it certainly looks like a deliberate step in the right direction!

There's no way this guy is for real, it's a wind-up.

[gasax]

I would be at all surprised to see our man Biggles having the last laugh!

He's a mason - so no prosecution!

He's a 'professional' mentor - paid for out of public funds.

From one of the sites associated with him "Mentoring, particularly in its traditional sense, enables an individual to follow in the path of an older and wiser colleague who can pass on knowledge, experience and open doors to otherwise out-of-reach opportunities. Coaching on the other hand is not generally performed on the basis that the coach has direct experience of their client’s formal occupational role unless the coaching is specific and skills focused.

Having said this, there are professionals offering their services under the name of mentoring who have no direct experience of their clients' roles and others offering services under the name of coaching who do. So the moral of the story is, it is essential to determine what your needs are and to ensure that the coach or mentor can supply you with the type and level of service you require, whatever that service is called."

He could well end up 'helping' many of the people in this profession!!!! And even better at the expense of the public purse - what rich irony!

Quite why a qualified(?) 'mentor' appears to be so resistant to learning or absorbing knowledge largely reinforces many of my prejudices about the sort of people who work for these semi-quangoes.

My summary - he was operating just beyond the level of his abilities, which normally would just expand his experience - if he got away with it. A fundamental oversight - fuel quantity - meant his capabilities reached breaking point and his survival was not down to rational thought - just dumb luck. As for his media peerformance? Presumably not a mentor in that area!

[Munnyspinner]

Although your flex wings are a pain in the arse in the circuit and I wish you could strap something to them to paint on primary radar

I know what you mean. Was it not due to flex wing incursions in the Edinburgh CTR that it was altered and extended - or was that Vince too?

Also, did I not read about one of the flex wings from Perth slamming into a hill top near glenshee last year - narrowly missing some walkers/climbers. I don't recall that was a forced landing but just stupendously dim flying. Was this man named and shamed?

Apologies to all if this was done to death at the time but I think I may have been overseas at the time it happened and can't remember where I read about it. I will now search for an AAIB report but, on the face of it that was an avoidable CFIT which endangered third parties and was no doubt also a breach of rule 5 ( object, person or structure).

Seems that maybe speaking to the medja is the reason for criticism of VH.

[trex450]

Vince,

How did you run out of (or low on) fuel in an aircraft with just you on board (thus allowing full fuel with weight to spare) and such a large fuel tank?

You mentioned that if the engine had failed 30 seconds, before or after, there would have been better options, in that case why were you so low?

Your decision for flying straight into the tree seems to me quite logical, you mention that the fairways have other obstructions so it makes sense in such a situation to opt for the worst possible outcome straight away as everything can then only get better. However why then fly into it at 70kts?

Finally, do you hope to win a Darwin award this year? The Darwin Awards (http://www.darwinawards.com)

[gasax]

Was the guy who flew into Glas Maol named and shamed? Well after a big team effort in retrieving his aircraft he was awarded a wooden toilet seat which sits on the club house wall - I think you could say he was!

Narrowly missing walkers is too much like media 'plummeting' and 'avoiding the school' which is only about 20 odd miles away!!

[Molesworth 1]

trex450

You really need to keep up.

Biggles has already explained that you need airspeed to do a pancake.

(Easy to miss something on this thread).

[VP959]

Vince has, quite rightly, pointed out that much of the talk here is pure supposition, based on reporting in the media (with all the inaccuracy that inevitably brings), However, we have been given enough information from several reputable sources, including Vince himself, to be convinced that Vince made several serious errors of judgement, although it's equally clear that poor old Vince is completely oblivious to his own failings.

I'm more than slightly surprised that Vince hasn't answered any of the core questions raised, but instead has chosen to behave rather like a politician in avoiding the key issues, this says as much about his approach to flight safety as any of his actions on that fateful flight.

Clearly Vince was fairly ill-prepared for this long trip. He seems to have not understood some very basic things, like the way his aircraft's fuel system worked, or the need for proper fuel planning, with safe reserves. His knowledge of general airmanship matters, like how to safely cross areas of controlled airspace, use the radio, his understanding of simple fundamentals like flight levels and the law as it applies to his aircraft type and licence all seem to have been sadly lacking.

Frankly I'd like to see his instructor/examiner come on here and explain how Vince came to be given a licence with such a poor knowledge of these basics. Perhaps Vince managed to bamboozle him/her too.

For those that hold out some hope that all will become clear in the AAIB report, I hate to disillusion you, but I doubt they will even so much as glance at the wreckage or visit the scene. The severity of the accident wouldn't warrant any sort of formal investigation, I'm sure, so will probably be very largely based on the hype that Vince spouts forth.

This is a great shame, as I think there are some good lessons to be learned from Vince's moment of fame. The most important lesson is perhaps to ignore Vince's proffered wisdom that it's a good thing to emulate the hero from a work of fiction and choose to execute a semi-controlled crash into a tree. The second most important lesson is to remember that powered aeroplanes need a certain minimum amount of fuel remaining in order to continue to fly...........

VP

[Jofm5]

This is a great shame, as I think there are some good lessons to be learned from Vince's moment of fame. The most important lesson is perhaps to ignore Vince's proffered wisdom that it's a good thing to emulate the hero from a work of fiction and choose to execute a semi-controlled crash into a tree. The second most important lesson is to remember that powered aeroplanes need a certain minimum amount of fuel remaining in order to continue to fly...........



And dont speak to the media, leave that to your club spokesperson if you have one or get some advice first.

[C42]

People keep going on about his instructor, I know vince and his instructor and i know it took many hours (i think it was 70) to pass his NPPL (M) i did mine in 25 hours at the same time as vince with the same instructor (I now have a JAR PPL)

Soon after Vince passed he "disapeared"

He came back a few weeks ago after the few years absence and asked his instructor to sign him off. His instructor REFUSED as he needed further training and Vince got the hump and "found someone else" to sign him off. No one at our club is aware of the identity of this person as Vince would not tell any one.

just a thought, what was the Qnh/Qfe at dundee as Vince may have still beem on 1013 and could explain why he was scared of the bridges etc as he could have been much lower than his instruments were showing??

I have flown G-VINH and it has one of these all in one lcd type set ups (not an EFIS) and it is tricky setting QNH

[Molesworth 1]

All this has got me re-reading my PPL Air Law. It's not nearly so dull once one can connect it with one's own experience.

[fisbangwollop]

Hey guys just spent the day wandering the streets of Glasgow on a bit of R and R...had to come back to 3 pages of missed post's....still not re-ordered my Beano as the crack on here too good .:ok::ok:.....Oh well its back to work for me tommorrow so for those of you that looking for a good "Basic service" just give me a call....safe flying one and all my fellow Jock aviators..:cool::cool::cool:

[mad_jock]

Right every ppruner who uses Scottish info tomorrow has to fit the word "biggles" into thier RT at some point. And fishbang has to report back how many do it :ok:

I hope you nipped into the Horse shoe for a cheeky one at lunch time fish.

[fisbangwollop]

Counting House for me....£1.60 a pint for some nice real ale!! :-) :ok:

[Hippy]

just a thought, what was the Qnh/Qfe at dundee as Vince may have still beem on 1013 and could explain why he was scared of the bridges etc as he could have been much lower than his instruments were showing??

Interesting thought, though it apears the QNH at Dundee at the time was pretty close to 1013. History : Weather Underground (http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/EGPN/2009/8/12/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA)

[Pace]

Pilot X had always had a love of adventure.

As a child he had his hero in Biggles and these heros of the past had influenced his dreams of being like them.

At a later stage in his life he took up flying. he was a slow student taking 70 hrs to achieve his NPPL (M) His instructor had concerns about pilot Xs natural ability. But Pilot X blotted out those concerns as nothing would ruin his dreams.

Nevertheless once armed with a licence Pilot X was now equipt to live out those dreams.

He had a need to visit Scotland and with this in mind hatched a plan to fly himself there.

Taking advice he was warned about a front which may cause him problems but reckoned he could beat this front before it arrived from the west.

Having said he was a slow learner there were many gaps in his knowledge but he had a licence he had an aircraft and off he jolly well would go.

At first all was OK he trundeled along VFR at 2500 to 3000 feet where most microlight type aircraft operated. Pilot X was enjoying himself and imagined the route would be the same all the way.

Further along the track he was alarmed that the visibility had dropped and that his aircraft was punching through bits of scud cloud. he climbed and suddenly the visibility was good he was VFR with good sight of the ground way below. He felt like a serious pilot, good descision to climb he relaxed and enjoyed the flight again.

Blast that cloud he had climbed over had joined him again, had got thicker and the holes were not as frequent.

He had no cloud flying ability and in desperation climbed again trying to stay visual. He calmed himself with the thought that this was localised and would improve ahead.

Easy to drop down again when things improved so he plodded on.

Talking to Scottish they cleared him at FL80. He was alarmed as the RT started to sound unfamiliar and he didnt want to sound like an idiot. Blast again the clouds were again touching him. He instinctively pulled back and was at FL83. Pilot X asked for higher and was offered FL100.

He was in a mess and he knew it but to admit it would be to admit to himself that he wasnt up to the job. He would try and bluff his way a bit longer.

he was starting to panic with all the unfamiliar RT and knew he was flying in conditions where he was out of his depth. he was stressed out could not think clearely.

Low and behold he saw a gap and the ground. His overwhelming desire was to get down under the cloud and back in his comfort zone. God he wished he was on the ground.

" Cleared to FL70 " Pilot X panicked FL70 was not enough he need to be VFR and fast. He descended and carried on while scaring himself in clouds past FL70 and on down.

Pilot X was told to contact Edinburugh but by know all his mental capacity was involved in flying the aircraft. He was equally scared to talk to someone who would tell him to do something he didnt want to do again.

Pilot X was now so confused that his overwhelming desire was to get on the ground. His mind was fuddled, basic stuff he knew no longer registered. He was in a slow horror movie where he had become a passenger not the pilot. He reacted to events and did not control them...........

Maybe not the chain of events but a typical chain of events which show how important it is to fly within your own and the aircrafts capability and if you do get a situation you cannot handle to tell ATC who will help. Pride can be a misplaced attitude......

Pace

[mad_jock]

No one at our club is aware of the identity of this person as Vince would not tell any one.


Just rereaded that and have a few alarm bells ringing. He wouldn't be the first and wouldn't be the last to be so silly.

BTW Pace that has a ring of truth about it.

[Munnyspinner]

Were you in the cockpit too?

A perfectly plausible scenario. One thing that you don't mention which I am afraid is perhaps relevant, the bit that everyone has missed, are the human factors involved - although strangely the clues are in Vince's postings and in his initial media comment.

He was on his way to visit his daughter after a family bereavement. His mother in law and his duaghters maternal grandmother (I presume) had died only a few days prior to the accident. Perhaps the rush north was to provide comfort to a potentially distressed relative and this may have coloured the pilots judgement on the day - gethereitis, again.

Whatever the level of Pilot X's ability and competency, any stress caused by death of a close family member( I think these were VH's own words) may be an underlying factor which influenced the outcome of the flight. Financial worries, marital strife and the recent loss of a close family member are all listed as reasons to reconsider flying under the I'M SAFE , before going flying, checklist.

Where stress in a contributory factor the PIC is , sadly, often the last the recognise this, indeed, it is difficult to attribute the cause of any such accident to any single human factor.

In flying, you are more likley to be pecked to death by ducks than be eaten by a crocodile! Catastrophic single failures are thankfully a thing of the past (mainly) but a string of small errors can easily bulid up with fatal consequences. I belive there were a string of events driven by perhaps by(unexpectedly?) deteriorating weather, unfamiliar territory ( FLs), and a need to press on with the flight plan ( rather than stopping and replanning).

I do wonder if we have a classic human factors case rather than an incompetent pilot?

Incidentally, I dug out the AAIB report on the flexwing accident at Glas Maol. No evidence of anything other than a perfectly competet pilot ( aged 56) simply not acting within sensible parameters. Stunting around hill tops is not a pastime to be recommended. I have often encountered rotor off the tops of hills - even in benign conditions and once or twice in PA28/C177 have had to apply almost full power to achieve anything other than a slow descent. The report is only two pages long, and didn't seem to involve anything other than the pilots very honest account of his misadventure.

[DeeCee]

If, heaven forbid, this event had resulted in a fatality this thread would have been awash with people telling us to 'wait for the official report'.

Normally I hate smilies, but here goes;

:ugh:

[mad_jock]

You are quite correct munnyspinner

Which is why I really hope the Board do a very complete investigation on this trip.

It really does have the potential to be the mother of all case studys, it really isn't a desire to stick the knife in the poor chap. It's just a real life accident which can and will be used to educate/reducate current/future pilots.

"Right mate its your hour with an instructor isn't it; read this...."

[Fly-by-Wife]

If, heaven forbid, this event had resulted in a fatality this thread would have been awash with people telling us to 'wait for the official report'.

Ah, but in this case the PIC has actually stated in this very thread that he wants the report to be compiled from his posts in this thread!

So we are actually helping to compile "the official report". :)

And fortunately this event didn't result in a fatality, although that was more through good luck than anything else, so the PIC is available to tell all and sundry his view of events and defend his actions. Whether or not this represents wisdom and his best course of action under the circumstances is debatable.

FBW

[cockney steve]

He's a mason - so no prosecution!

Unlikely to help him, it seems he's just a country member

I'm sure that if he actually did anything illegal,the wheels of justice will grind.

Sorry, Vince, you come across as concieted and arrogant. One of the earlier posters came up with a really good teaching-aid.


Pour some water onto a tea-tray and walk round with it.


The tray is analogous to your big, flat tank...unless your aircraft attitude puts the fuel outlet at the lowest point AND you are flying absoloutely in balance, the usable fuel will slop away from the outlet.

IMO you have never bothered to pay attention to your sight-glasses until . at that last turn, the sight went from ~5L to empty...then you failed to connect "unbalanced turn....slop....can't suck the fuel "

That scenario SHOULD have been familiar and the apparent "sudden dissapearance" would not have caught you with your pants down.

[frontlefthamster]

...and if we're to follow Cockney Steve's analysis, then setting off with proper reserves in the first place, and making sensible decisions along the way, would have prevented this whole laughable waste of time.

Intellectually adept though the pilot in question may be out of an aircraft, he's nothing but a liability when in one, so far as I can see, and as I said before, the bizarreness of his actions after the accident is a match only for the wretched series of errors which led to it.

Let's hope the folk in London get stuck into him properly.

[mad_jock]

Its got nothing to do with the folk in London under Scottish law.

The system up here is completely different.

Anyone getting done will be taken to court by the Proc fiscal. The CAA can advise them but that is as far as it goes.

Under the scottish system as well, the guilty cannot be charged the expense of bring the case to court.

So if your going to cock up scotland is the place to do it.

[Pace]

so the PIC is available to tell all and sundry his view of events and defend his actions. Whether or not this represents wisdom and his best course of action under the circumstances is debatable.

FlyBywife

I have no doubts thet Biggles has not given the true picture of the events :)
One poster described his responses as those of a politician skirting around the answers but not really answering the questions.

I am equally sure that he is trying to guard his ego. There are enough facts to piece together a likely scenario. Far from being arrogant I am sure he really knows how lucky he is and the mistakes he made.

My own pilot X example in a posting above is a likely one. Infact if I was Biggles I would use it as well as the bereavement as why he got himself into such a mess.

I am an inexperienced pilot. I got into weather I am not trained to deal with because of "push on itis" I was desperate to be with my daughter.

I should have told ATC of my predicament but thought I could sort it myself which was a mistake. I have learnt my lesson and under normal circumstances would not have acted in that way. I am sorry.

If he is clever that is the approach he will make tail between his legs. If he is stupid which I dont believe he is he will state that he is a fantastic pilot who did nothing wrong then he will deserve anything he gets and should not continue flying.

Munnyspinner Totally agree. Very few accidents are the result of one mistake but an accumulation of poor judgements and actions.
Often that starts when flying when upset or not really in the loop.

Pace

[frontlefthamster]

mad jock,

Who do you think will carry out the investigation?

[fisbangwollop]

hamster....the pprune mafia!!:)

[mad_jock]

I really don't know to much about it apart from when my old PPL school getting done for operating an aircraft without a CofA.

It could very well be a PPruner, there are loads of Police/legal type PPL's about in scotland.

I presume some poor sod will get given the task of gathering all the relevant details together. Then in conjuction with the CAA legal types work out which pieces of legislation are thought to be of an issue. Then a report will get sent to the proc fiscal office who will decided what is to be done next.

Then if it is getting taken any further it will be the Proc Fiscal or one of his/her deputies who then take the case further.

If it does get taken futher it will be a major pain in the arse for all concerned and could very well bugger peoples holidays and roster patterns up.

But then again we could get a bash together and give the Grassmarket a good seeing to.

[Pace]

If it does get taken futher it will be a major pain in the arse for all concerned and could very well bugger peoples holidays and roster patterns up.

Taking it further means a prosecution which is unlikely especially with a novice pilot who has got into a mess.

The CAA are unlikely to prosecute even in cases you think they would prosecute.

More likely a letter is my guess as long as his paperwork etc is in order

Pace

[mad_jock]

Thats the point Pace, the CAA have nothing to do with deciding if there will be a prosecution. If the Fiscal deems it in the public interest they will take it further. It will depend very much on the way Scottish and Edi ATC word thier report and the "danger to the public" that was caused.

You might note I am only talking about the airspace bust...

The other parts of his trip who knows...

The CAA can't prosecute anyone in scotland. They can't reclaim costs. The only rights of access to the case are the same as any other member of the public who has an interest.

[fisbangwollop]

Mad Jock....sorry to dissapoint but not one mention of Biggles 119.875 this morning....that said not many daft buggers wanting to fly in this weather...apart from the nice man from Sky News in his Twin squirrel!!:ok::ok::ok:

[Pace]

Mad Jock

Ok but put it this way what could they try and bring charges for with what we already know? and what would that achieve? retraining is a different matter but they dont have powers in that direction. If all his paperwork is in order cannot see what they could do?

Pace

[mad_jock]

Sorry added to the previous post while you were doing your post.

Basically it would be to do with his actions in the Scottish TMA and EDI controlled air space.

Endangering the Public.

Boo fishbang the wx was a bit pants down in the lowlands. Quite nice up north, unfortunately everyone still licking there wounds after......
So nobody wanting to experence my unique style of instructing :}

[Bigears]

fisbangwollop...
I mentioned Biggles when passing by- doesn't that count, even though it was directly into your lughole, and not on the RT? :O

[Pace]

Mad Jock

There is a difference between an experienced pilot busting CAS who should know better and a novice pilot who gets into a mess. ie someone who knowingly does wrong and someone who does wrong because he is Sh****g his pants.

We also dont know whether he actually bust CAS? he was given clearances which he appears to not have flown accurately. He also appears to have descended below an assigned level but he is a VFR pilot flying an aircraft not approved to fly IFR.

I would be really surprised if a prosecution is made by who ever. You also have to consider the position of ATC in all this. A microlight up at FL100, a pilot who didnt sound as if he knew what he was doing.

Did ATC ask his qualifications, level of experience did they ask whether he was in difficulties? Add in his mindset with the bereavement and desire to get to his daughter and I really think a prosecution would be pointless and negative exercise.

Pace

[fisbangwollop]

I mentioned Biggles when passing by- doesn't that count, even though it was directly into your lughole, and not on the RT?


Hey Bigears but surely you noticed I was fast asleep and never heard a thing!!:p:p:p

[Munnyspinner]

Pace, thereby lies the problem , if your may be right about PIC skirting around the 'truth'. i.e its what he's not said that matters. However, the onus on proof lies with the prosecution so PIC is innocent until proven guilty.

I am generally in the "string em up by the wotsits mob" when it comes to anything that compromises safety but, in this case, despite poor RT and an alleged infringment of airspace would it be in the public interest to prosecute? As a deterrent to others - perhaps. As a punishment - surely compulsory retraining would yield a better result.

As regards the actual crash, the Procurator would have to prove that PIC was negligent or wreckless in his conduct of the flight and that resulted in the crash ( although until a charge is brought I can only speculate as to whether this would be the appropriate test ) Again, as there were no injuries or damage to persons or property I think it is unlikley that PF would see that a prosecution is in the public interest. Conflicting evidence as a result of damage to the aircraft, lack of independent corroberation and the fact that the pilot claims that he had enugh fuel but that the donk conked out - might challenge a fiscal depute.

If, as has been mentioned, this had resulted in a fatality then in Scotland there would be a Fatal Accident Inquiry(FAI) which is a statutory public inquiry into the circumstances of a death. The Procurator Fiscal can hold a FAI where there are issues of public safety or matters of general public concern arising from a death and there is a need to highlight hazardous or dangerous circumstances or systems that have caused or contributed to it.

Interestingly, a FAI cannot make any findings of fault/blame against individuals. Similarly, The fundamental purpose of the AAIB is:
"To improve aviation safety by determining the causes of air accidents and serious incidents and making safety recommendations intended to prevent recurrence"
...It is not to apportion blame or liability.

So, it is over to the CAA to decide whether to seek a prosecution.

As a case study it may be text book - even if Vince might not agree!

Re the CTR Bust, at 7000' was he not out of the Edinburgh Zone but in the scottish TMA? I'm sorry , I don't have any charts with me today but that is Class D airspace above 6000ft and class E 2500 - 6000? At the EDI CTR boundary if he was above 6000' ( climbing to FL10? ) was he technically still in the TMA? Clearance is required - was this given?

[fisbangwollop]

And Oh p.s. Bigears...that puts me 1 post ahead of your tally now...:):):):):)

[hoodie]

...or wreckless in his conduct of the flight...

Well, he certainly wasn't that! :}

Yes, yes - I know. Sorry. Is that my coat over there?

[mad_jock]

I don't know to be honest.

As I said the whole thing hinges on the reports that the various agency's submit and the view of the proc fiscal on if it is in the public interest or not.

The endangerment wasn't related to the crash, its what Edi had to do to steer traffic away from him.

[VP959]

As I've mentioned before, I very much doubt that this accident will get much in the way of an in-depth investigation. The injuries were not severe, the amount of third party damage was modest and, as far as I can tell, there was no independent examination of the wreckage, so there won't be much in the way of hard evidence as to causality.

I also doubt whether any airspace infringements were severe enough to attract any sort of legal action either, even if they'd occurred South of the border they would hardly have warranted more than a stiff 'phone call to the pilot afterwards.

I predict that all we'll see is a brief report from the AAIB, based largely on the pilot's testimony, that will be nowhere near as entertaining a read as this thread.

That doesn't change my view that the pilot is being a fool to himself by continuing to pretend that he wasn't to blame. His chosen strategy will just make a great deal of work for others, including, I'm sure, the manufacturers agent in the UK. Flight safety isn't likely to benefit much, which is a shame, as I think a lot could be learned from a full and open appraisal of the causes of this accident.

VP

[mad_jock]

I don't know if he had admitted that he had run out of fuel due to his cockup they might have done as you have just proposed.

That type has had a few prangs and engines conking out due to fuel starvation while fuel is onboard is worthy of further investigation.

edited to add I have no real strong views on if should or shouldn't be taken to court. My only reason to comment is for the southern pilots to realise is quite different up north on the legal side of things.

I quite agree the full in's and out's of the trip should be documented because I can garantee they will be used for years for training pilots

[Pace]

VP959

I would really question ATC in this? I was involved in a Citation which filled with smoke climbing through FL240 over the channel at night.
We were trying to sort the thing out London were brilliant and very perceptive although at times they didnt have a lot to go on other than "we have a problem a bit of smoke" which turned into a lot of smoke and an emergency.

What happened here? a bumbling pilot all over the sky and ATC continued to handle him as if he had an IR and IFR equipt plane? Come on someone elses actions need looking at without knowing the full details or transcripts.

Pace

[Munnyspinner]

wreckless

A misnomer if ever there was one!

[Munnyspinner]

Fair point Mad Jock - It's roman law up here! None of that poncy common english stuff for us! Scots courts are actually much closer to their continental cousins than the southerners!

Having said that, you will be hard pushed to find any recent prosecutions for airspace infringements if you search the Scottish Courts records! - I've just looked.

PS No offence intended to those who are unfortunate enough to live or hail form Southern Britain.

[mad_jock]

You will be hard pushed to find any aviation related court cases in scotland. I haven't seen a single one on the CAA's list of success for years now

Something to do with the fact that the CAA doesn't get any of its costs back and its in the public interest to get drug dealers and other such scum through the courts.......

And just to note a previous posters comment. He has already been through one revalidation cycle. He might not be deemed a novice in the eyes of the powers that be. For all we know he could have a fair old number of hours banging around his local area.

[Stonebase]

Hi all,
I find it a bit strange that Vince seems to be quiet again since mentioning his contact with the AAIB.

As i understand things, the police will carry out an investigation into how this flight ended in a tree. Depending on who the investigating officer speaks to will depend on what evidence that officer takes to the PF.

One good thing might come out of this over the next few years though! I might just be tempted to try for my PPL to fly Microlights!
Take care out there!

[fisbangwollop]

What happened here? a bumbling pilot all over the sky and ATC continued to handle him as if he had an IR and IFR equipt plane? Come on someone elses actions need looking at without knowing the full details or transcripts.



Get your facts right before you spout off PACE.....At no stage I think you will find did our mate Vince intimate to ATC that he had a problem.....the only problem was for the lady controller that found her self confronted with an ultralight aircraft bumbling through the Scottish TMA at FL 090 ish and 70 kts as she was trying to sequence here Edinburgh inbound traffic towards the tartan holding fix!!! And dont forget he was operating in the Scotish TMA which is class D airsapce where VFR flight is permitted with an ATC clearance with what dear Vince boy got....now starting to think you more of a muppet than Vince!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[silverknapper]

apart from the nice man from Sky News in his Twin squirrel!!

Heard him today sounding a bit stressed. Gla wouldn't accept him for fuel - airport authority not ATC. What reason could that be for?

[pilotbear]

The guy is a :mad: idiot but, it also just goes to show the ludicrousness of the NPPL. This licence is a joke.:eek: I cannot believe insurance companies will cover people with so little experience.
There should be a law akin to dangerous driving or driving without due care and attention and licences should be withdrawn in lieu of retraining and another test.
Furthermore, the attention should definitely be on WHO signed his revalidation and who signed his test pass. Because, in fairness 'pilots' like Vince are only in the air because some other idiot let them.

[smnasn]

Obviously it's unfair to criticise the NPPL on the basis of one idiot (who had 70 hours training before he passed by all accounts).

Is there any real evidence that NPPL pilots present more risk?

[Crash one]

The guy is a :mad: idiot but, it also just goes to show the ludicrousness of the NPPL. This licence is a joke.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif I cannot believe insurance companies will cover people with so little experience.


Just how does one gain experience when one cannot get insurance to fly, in order to gain experience? Or is one expected to fly someone elses aeroplane at that other someones expense & on their insurance, which the insurance company won't cover because the pilot has so little experience?
Only a :mad: idiot would blame the licence, what the hell difference does it make what licence he had?
Yes I obviously have a NPPL(A) & yes, being tarred with the same brush does piss me off. What type of licence do you have that qualifies you to criticise anyone elses? :ugh::ugh:

[mad_jock]

ATPL with unrestricted current FI rating :p

And i think there is :mad: all wrong with the NPPL and its various flavours.

Now old farts and gingers!!!! different story. ;)

[Pace]

Get your facts right before you spout off PACE.....At no stage I think you will find did our mate Vince intimate to ATC that he had a problem.....the only problem was for the lady controller that found her self confronted with an ultralight aircraft bumbling through the Scottish TMA at FL 090 ish and 70 kts as she was trying to sequence here Edinburgh inbound traffic towards the tartan holding fix!!! And dont forget he was operating in the Scotish TMA which is class D airsapce where VFR flight is permitted with an ATC clearance with what dear Vince boy got....now starting to think you more of a muppet than Vince!!!

Fisbangwollop

or rather Pea brain is more apt what qualifications do you have to make such comments reveal all amaze me NPPL? PPL? or NOTHING probably NOTHING!

Really how many microlights do you think in your amazing wisdom cruise at FL100 in that space? How many microlight pilots given a FL to fly then go up and down like a yo yo and dont even know what the setting for a FL is? How many microlight pilots flying at those levels talk rubbish and sound as if they have no place to be there?

If ATC are not alerted to a possible problem by the antics of this pilot any one with sense would check regardless of the pilot informing them that he had a problem...... That is pretty obvious

Go change your nappy

Pace

[fisbangwollop]

PACE.........I was on duty on the next sector when it all took place....:ugh:

[Pace]

what ATC ? Then explain? wasnt anyone alerted by the fact that the guy didnt know what a FL was? didnt you realise that something wasnt right? Its not rocket science. or were you too busy drinking tea and reading mags? You have a duty of care to those up there. The good ATC are far more intuitive than your purile response indicates

Pace

[fisbangwollop]

PACE its obvious from comments like that that indeed you know nothing at all about ATC...if you would like to visit Scottish Control just PM me and I will arrange a visit and maybe educate you a little........the word muppet comes to mind in this thread many times...sadly at times poor Vince is not the victim!!:ugh:

[Saab Dastard]

Guys,

Can we all take a deep breath and count to 10? There seems to be some heat developing under certain collars!

There's many good posts and many good points here.

Please can we continue the discussion without raising hackles?

Thank you all.

SD

[Pace]

Fisbangwollop

I have flown your airspace scores of times and never met an ATC guy like you nor want to.

Pace

[140KIAS]

I have flown your airspace scores of times and never met an ATC guy like you nor want to.



If thats the case I think you will find you are in a minority of one.

Do you really expect Fisbang and his colleagues to check you have the necessary privilidges every time you ask for a service ? Not to mention checking that the conditions in your locality really are VMC like you claim ?

[Pace]

Do you really expect Fisbang and his colleagues to check you have the necessary privilidges every time you ask for a service ?

140KIAS
When the pilot cannot hold a FL, cannot set a FL, goes up and down like a Yo Yo, doesnt even know RT and descends clean through a cleared level and is flying an aircraft, a microlight at those levels then a resounding YES!

In my thousands of hours flying all over the world I have heard many situations where ATC have been intuitive and intervened if that doesnt happen in Scotland then God help us.

Pace

[mad_jock]

Pace I think you are being a tad unfair mate.

How many times do we hear complaints on here of controllers sealing off airspace.

Unfortunately this will mean that they will quite likely not be so helpful next time someone wants a transit.

Hell its the sort of thing I would do in a none airways IFR equiped single if I had a stonking tailwind.

And if this spat continues I can see a very useful thread being locked by the moderators.

[Pace]

Mad Jock

Ok maybe I went over the top with fisbangwolop being rude and insulting to me. But we are NOT talking about a competant pilot requesting a clearance.

We are talking about a pilot who has generated over 20,000 hits on this sight, nearly killed himself and plainly should not have been where he was or qualified to be there.

In my time I have witnessed ATC being very intuitive. they have questioned whether the pilot was OK, They have questioned his qualifications,They have questioned his abilities. Not once but scores of times.

To be insulted for saying fact and the truth??? I dont care who the poster is.

Pace

[Crash one]

Pace
You are welcome to your opinion. But as 140K says you are in a minority of one, fisbang & his colleagues provide us with an excellent service, far beyond that which is now required, & we can do without the licence slinging. I've met them & they are the real thing.

[Pace]

fisbang & his colleagues provide us with an excellent service

My last post on this. I dont know Fisbang. Yes I have flown many many times over Scotland and have always found Scottish to be excellent too.

Sorry but Something went wrong in this situation and I cannot change that view given the reports to date.

You are welcome to your opinion. But as 140K says you are in a minority of one So be it ! one will do!

Pace

[mad_jock]

We don't know how it all kicked off.

His intial calls could have sounded "by the book" and then once cleared inside and inside airspace only then did it transpire that he was a fud. I don't know how often a VFR/ unfiled IFR transit of that airspace occurs. I am sure fisbang can tell us.

Then the controller only had 2 choices try and turn him round or shepard him through all while shoving aircraft towards the tartan hold as fast as Manchester chucks them at her. You can be sure she won't do it again :)

There might very well be debrief points for the lady concerned and I am sure it will be become a story that trainers will scare trainees on that sector for years with.

So another outcome of this whole incident is that class D which in my opnion was being operated in the spirit of class D ie if there was space and workloaded allowed you got access to it. Now quite understandably, perfectly competent pilots will be refused access in case they do a "vince"

[Crash one]

Pace
I don't know the procedure when plonkers meander through CAS but perhaps it would be a better use of rescources to redirect traffic that is able & willing to respond & act, rather than try to educate the one that is not, probably making his situation worse in the process.

[Captain Stable]

Pace, you ARE in a minority of one. I have also flown through that airspace more times than I care to count. It is quite clear that ATC was a tad busy that day. They are NOT required to check whether a pilot is feeling well, is missing his teddybear, to ask him whether he knows what a flight level is (it's in the syllabus so he bl00dy well SHOULD know).

IF the posts on here are genuinely from Biggles, then the guy has no business ever getting in an aircraft again. Were I in Enforcement Branch of the Campaign, I would recommend pulling his licence (based on what has been posted here). He might still save his skin if he tells them it wasn't him posting here, he wouldn't say anything like that, he made several very silly mistakes during the flight in a state of panic and confusion, and he's very, very sorry and he most certainly will never do anything like that ever again. But that's about his only hope.

PS ATPL/FI, Flight Safety Officer and former AFISO.

[fisbangwollop]

what ATC ? Then explain? wasnt anyone alerted by the fact that the guy didnt know what a FL was? didnt you realise that something wasnt right? Its not rocket science. or were you too busy drinking tea and reading mags? You have a duty of care to those up there. The good ATC are far more intuitive than your purile response indicates

Pace


PACE good morning, thats me heading off to do another day on the sector as you say drinking tea and readings mags....its a shame your muppet lioke comments have ruined what was a good thread untill you came along....as for ATC reacting to emergency situations there is a certain PA28 driver that was very greatfull for my services on Easter Sunday.....Until you get your facts correct how can you come on this BB and spout off like a demented budgie......As I said in one the very first posts....I was on the next sector when all this situation started to happen so saw it from close quarters.....at no time did Vince advise the sector that he had a problem apart from wanting to transit the TMA, climb above cloud and be kept away from the other "big planes"....to that end the Lady controller in question did a brilliant job....now I am not going to go on or say any more on the subject....as far as I am concerned now the rest will come out in the wash ....as for insulting you maybe you should actually read the posts you have made about me and my colleague's as I see the shoe on the other foot there!!.....safe flying to you.......:ugh::ugh:

[VP959]

In defence of the ATC unit involved, I doubt that they would have had any clue as to the limitations of the type of aircraft involved in this incident or the limitations of the pilot due to the type of licence he holds.

I doubt that Vince declared that he was flying a microlight, as there was no need to, and I suspect that Vince is might be of those who prefers not to admit to his aircraft being a microlight, anyway. He was apparently transponder equipped (relatively unusual for a microlight) and flying at a cruise speed and height commensurate with that of many other GA types. There would have been few outward clues to the controller of the class of aircraft they were dealing with.

It would be quite reasonable for the controller to assume that the pilot should know the limitations of his aircraft and licence type and just do his/her best to maintain safety in that bit of airspace, once it was clear that there was a potential problem. This seems to be just what was done, albeit with some inconvenience to other users.

I very much doubt that any legal action will be taken, as the outcome wasn't too serious, even though it had the potential to be. The rescue seems to have been fairly straightforward, damage to third party property seems modest and proving whatever the Scottish equivalent is of "reckless endangerment" would be fairly difficult (and expensive). My guess is that the AAIB report will be brief and inconclusive, Vince will whitewash the media and the true underlying reasons for this accident will be submerged beneath a layer of hype, leading to the loss of a valuable set of lessons learned.

VP

[Pace]

PACE good morning, thats me heading off to do another day on the sector as you say drinking tea and readings mags....its a shame your muppet lioke comments have ruined what was a good thread untill you came along....as for ATC reacting to emergency situations there is a certain PA28 driver that was very greatfull for my services on Easter Sunday.....Until you get your facts correct how can you come on this BB and spout off like a demented budgie......

FisBangWollop

Things got heated basically because you were personally rude to me when I made what I thought was a valid point questioning the ATC part in the Vince scenario.

Firstly I have flown to most destinations in Scotland and ATC are brilliant hence my reason for asking why ATC had not been alerted to something being wrong as from what was printed here there were multiple mistakes made by the Vince over quite a distance.

I am sure it would be very interesting to hear the ATC side how relaxed Vinces Voice was, the recordings etc.

Until you get your facts correct how can you come on this BB

That is the problem in a forum we do not have the facts so a lot is supposition but you do have some of the facts regarding ATC and know a lot more than we do.

Anyway my apologies if things got heated but you were personally rude to me over what I though was a valid question so I blew my top off at you. It was late at night which also didnt help :)

Pace

[C42]

Can i change the subject,

got this text mesg from someone in the know

no RT Licence
no medical
no check flight after long illness
inability to listen
no planning before take off
no CURRENT maps
no fuel planning

= BIGGLES :mad:

[mad_jock]

I hope to hell this aircraft was 100% his if that last post is correct.

No medical = big poo hits the fan


I feel really sorry for the others if he was a group member.

I have had a poke around about this type and its one seriously nice bit of kit.

Vne of 150knts
20lts of mogas an hour at 120-130knts
nice avionics
Fat tall bastard fit of cockpit.
40knts stall speed
STOL
Under a 100k with all the extras.

PS its good to see you two have kissed and made up.

[Jucky]

no RT Licence
no medical
no check flight after long illness
inability to listen
no planning before take off
no CURRENT maps
no fuel planning



If half that is true, they will throw the book at him, and I hope they do. I know a case of an instructor a number of years back who got 6 months in prison for falsifying a log book!

[gasax]

Gosh don't read the thread for a day and it's handbags at 10 paces!

I was waiting for the almost inevitable 'microlight' and 'NPPL' attack and of course it came!

The aircraft type is pretty irrelevent because the CT does not look like one and certainly out performs the majority of two seat 'conventional' GA aircraft.

I'm sure that as the situation developed, ATC became very clear that if they did not expedite Biggles route onwards he would overload and become very unpredicatable.

From many conversations I have heard you can often see that point being reached - ATC decide that 'educating' 'shepherding' 'clarifying' whatever is not going to work and so giving a clearance and moving everything out of the way in the sensible thing. The last time I heard it happen it was two foreign military jets, with biggles at least he was slower so it was easier!

I shudder to think what the amazing shrinking GASIL will publish - doubtless more condesending rubbish, then of course we'll have some 'Reggie Bender' prognostigations from GASCO. I feel the hatred for Biggle building.

But to be blunt there really is nothing for the vast majority of PPLs to learn from this - fly with enough fuel? Well who would have thought. Don't land in a tree? Don't talk to the media? Try not to be a prat?

[fisbangwollop]

PACE...
I have flown your airspace scores of times and never met an ATC guy like you nor want to.


That was your response to me inviting you to come and see the operation here at Scottish Centre....and you have the cheek to say I have been rude to you!:eek:

If you have been angered by my response to you I will kiss and make up if that makes you happy :)

I got rather upset I must admit when you intimated that the blame may fall at the feet of Scottish ATC when infact the controller in question should have been given a good show award!!!:ok::ok:

But one thing for sure the response from others that use the service's we provided shows in general we are doing a pretty dam good job..:p

Finally I must thank you for getting me a nice chocky biscuit sent to my sector this morning from AIRPOLICE.....I wonder if the fact there were two fingers in the package was a cryptic clue!!!

Take care and safe flying next time you manage to get into the air..:cool::cool:

[Pace]

I have had a poke around about this type and its one seriously nice bit of kit.

Mad Jock

I have drooled over this aircraft too Shame its so expensive :sad:

If no RT licence and if true then that makes the quality of his RT chat enroute even more interesting. ;)

Pace

[Dr John Watson]

fishbangwallop.

just had to register and post after reading some of the posts doubting Scottish . I was the "PA28" drive that Easter Sunday when the engine chewed a valve. From my perspective I could not have asked for anymore assistance than was given - It was only when I got down safely that I realised how much was being done in the background for me - luckily it was not needed - calling a Mayday early on was to my way of thinking the only sensible way to proceed.Training and experience kicking in no doubt. All I had to do was nurse the engine back to Cumbernauld. Pity Vince didn't have the where with all to declare a PAN situation. The outcome could have been very different. I don't belive ATC should be second guessing any pilots intentions. It's a two way exchange

Thanks again and I owe you big time.

[Pace]

What happened here? a bumbling pilot all over the sky and ATC continued to handle him as if he had an IR and IFR equipt plane? Come on someone elses actions need looking at without knowing the full details or transcripts.

Get your facts right before you spout off PACE.....At no stage I think you will find did our mate Vince intimate to ATC that he had a problem.....the only problem was for the lady controller that found her self confronted with an ultralight aircraft bumbling through the Scottish TMA at FL 090 ish and 70 kts as she was trying to sequence here Edinburgh inbound traffic towards the tartan holding fix!!! And dont forget he was operating in the Scotish TMA which is class D airsapce where VFR flight is permitted with an ATC clearance with what dear Vince boy got....now starting to think you more of a muppet than Vince!!!


FisbangWollop

This was your posting which riled me last night where you called me a muppet for asking what i thought was a valid question. It was that rudeness that got me to make the statement of not wishing to meet an Air Traffic controller like you.

If you look at the extract you pasted I actually referred to the fact that i did not know the full details or transcripts. Mine was an impression based on snippets of information. You are in a position to know facts.

I fly corporate jets and also have thousands of hours on a multitude of piston twins many of those hours have been over Northern Ireland and Scotland in summer and winter, day and night, so I hold Scottish in high esteem and know the quality of service you offer.

It was late at night and I apologise for my part if you felt offended by my comments back at you but I was offended by your initial response to me.

May I further add that the problem with these forums is you do not see peoples facial expressions and we often say things to each other which we would never dream of face to face

Pace

[mad_jock]

Expensive if your by yourself.

During my internet crawling there were a couple of groups down south for 6k for 1/12 share 50 quid a month and 55quid an hour wet including local landing fee's.

Puts an hour in a C152 or PA38 to shame.

Has anyone got pics of the avionics fit and the cockpit?

If true about the medical and RT now its public that there are suspicions. I think the authorities would be failing there duty of care to the rest of us both private and commercial if they didn't take it further.

[hatzflyer]

Lets face it, if he gets locked up for it in Jockland he'll be out in no time on compasionate grounds.

[mad_jock]

Compassionate grounds my backside, they just realised it was cheaper getting him home as SLF than in a lead lined box.

I would have thought they would have looked at the option of barbequing him over here and sending him home in a jiffy bag but the political fall out would have been to much.

And I doudt very much if it does go to court that it will end up doing porridge.
A suitable community service order would be being a tea walla at scottish for a week which would also aid in his retraining.

[gasax]

Maybe true Hatz - but do remember he has to be dying first!

Anyone got any idea what the upper winds were doing on the 12th. I note from a post a few pages back that the Dundee conditions were about 20 mph from the West. Is it possible that Biggles actually had a substantial headwind at FL70 plus?

[mad_jock]

Well if scottish thought he was doing 70knts and the plane cruises at 115-120I suspect about 50knts which wouldn't be unusual in that area.

[NorthSouth]

madjock:He has already been through one revalidation cycleAn earlier post suggested that there might be a question over whether he has actually "been through" it; and it seems to me that may well make a big difference to the prospects of a prosecution being brought - perhaps unrelated to the accident and therefore not necessarily in a Scottish court.
NS

[Pace]

Mad Jock

Fisbangwollop hinted in one of his postings FL90 ish and 70 KTS which I presumed is what ATC estimated off his returns. So realisyically 30-35 kts

Pace

[mad_jock]

I will go with that Pace.

very true NS

And Dr John it seems a kitkat while doing a stint on scottish info makes for a happy FISO can't see you going far wrong with sending a couple of multi packs as way of appreciation.

Or even better make the effort to deliver them personally the whole team down there likes nothing better than showing pilots the ins and outs of what they do. I found it extremely interesting when I visited.

[T18]

Pace

Perth to Tiree, Fl10, groundspeed of 107kts each way with a fuel burn of 12lt mogas, heater, room for inflight self catering, helicopter like vis, light precise handling.

Who would prefer to fly a 25 year old spamcan?

T18

[Dr John Watson]

Mad Jock


not a bad idea - will pursue this one -what their poison?

Visited Glasgow end of last year and it was an eye opener. I would go as far to say as part of the PPL training a visit to an ATC unit should be compulsary. The effects of all these wind farms of the radar returns was not comforting.

[mad_jock]

Don't know what there posion is. But I have never met an Airtrafficer yet that doesn't like chocolate biscuits or some shortbread with a brew. Also means the whole team gets a look in.

Also has the pontential for quite a bit of banter with Scottish info telling Talla sector to piss off and get there own biscuits while they munch away making lots of "bloody hell these are good" comments

[VP959]

gasax wrote:
The aircraft type is pretty irrelevent because the CT does not look like one and certainly out performs the majority of two seat 'conventional' GA aircraft.

I have absolutely no desire to provoke any microlight-related debate, but the fact that this aircraft was a microlight is highly relevant here, as the law and regulations that apply to the operation of microlights is more limiting that that which applies to a standard GA type. Of particular relevance are the licence and Permit to Fly restrictions that apply.

VP

[trex450]

where has biggles gone in the last few pages, I guess common sense and reality have kicked in and he has shut up at last

[Unusual Attitude]

NorthSouth has a very good point there, if indeed our intrepid Biggles was out of Medical / Currency and a variety of other ticks in the boxes then that changes things significantly.

Since a portion of the flight took place in English airspace then an offence was committed in England and a case could be brought through the English courts (allowing the CAA to recover all costs).
The evidence from EDI ATC et all and the final outcome of the flight would just be used to strengthen the case further.....

Personally, if he has knowingly flown out of check, medical etc then I hope they make an example of him.

[mad_jock]

Actually Fisbang are you still an AFISO after all the service changes

Surely you would now be an ABO or as we normally shorten it a BO.

I am sure none of your collegues would cruel enough to refer to it as a "BeeO"

:p;) MJ who will get a FAll service next time he asks for basic.

[yakker]

Also bearing in mind a point I alluded to earlier, when he turned south over Dundee, he should have been at a height where he could 'glide clear' with an engine failure. This he clearly did not do as he landed on the golf course.

[Crash one]

as the law and regulations that apply to the operation of microlights is more limiting that that which applies to a standard GA type. Of particular relevance are the licence and Permit to Fly restrictions that apply.


Here we go again!:ugh:
As far as I am aware microlights are allowed in class D.
Permit a/c are allowed in class D. And since recently, over built up settlements.
VFR was complied with.
VMC was complied with.
NPPL daytime only was complied with.
UK airspace? does the Hieland Republic of Jockistan constitute UK?
Is there anything else that I've missed?

[T5 Mole]

All this speculative talk of prosecution is hardly going to enlighten the average PPL of the navigation and flight planning errors of our hero.

I take it that we have nothing further factual to discuss in the past few pages. There are many useful points on planning and wisdom of choosing to fly in certain airspace that are otherwise lost if we progress with further speculation on old VH's fate.

As we can at least all agree that there is little public interest in prosecuting anyone who certainly had no intent of breaching rules and/or best practice, it is highly probable that the relevant authority will take the same view.

It is also unlikely that our hero will be as open and communicative with the CAA and AAIB if such talk continues - hinderance of any investigation that takes place by such talk is therefore, surely, counterproductive for flight safety.

[Molesworth 1]

I think the point being made is (and without knowing all the facts impossible to know for sure) that what happened was not just due to inexperience.

[fisbangwollop]

OK guys just finished a morning shift on the good old Scottish FIR sector.....only 2 pages to trawl through today!!

Dr John Watson...it was my pleasure to react the way I did on Easter Sunday...to be honest I really didnt think you would make it back and therefore a great comfort to me to know Rescue 177 was well on its way to your last position!!:ok:

Mad Jock.....yes after all the ATSOCA changes I am still a lowly Area FISO but its a job I love so much as you can probably tell when we speak on the R/T.

As for biscuits anything with dark Chocolate and caramel would be fine....that said one of my fine young lady customers and a regular on here has just reminded me that the last time she left a box of Roses after I invited her club for a visit I scoffed the lot myself.....sorry Colette!! but then again I thought they were all for me??

Pace........OK no hard feelings and thanks for the nice apology...I love my job and the guys and girls I work with so get annoyed when any one tries to put them down........next time you are flying north come up on 119.875 and say hello...if you ever night stop with the coporate jet let me know and I will buy you a beer......:p:p:p

[Captain Stable]

"Biggles" claimed a couple of times in these pages that his GPS would exonerate him. Does anyone know if the CTsw's GPS can remember what it did before it was switched off?

[Squadgy]

Most CTSWs do not come with a intergated GPS. Most have an Airgizmos docking station on the panel which allows a standard Garmin 196/296/396/496 etc to be carried.

The Garmins can 'memorise' track/altitude data.

I will try and post a photo later.

The 'Group A' version of the CTSW - the CTLS, can come with the above arrangement or a perm fitted Garmin 695, which can be coupled to the auto pilot.

[Dr John Watson]

fisbangwallop

one of the main things I learned from the engine going pop was at 1800lbs AUW a cherokee 140 will still maintain height with three clyinders working if throttled back (to cut down on vibration) and trimmed out. Ground speed is not impressive but it was sufficient. You are not the only one who thought I wouldn't make it back but we were both wrong. A definate brown trouser experience.

How does a supply of caramel wafers/logs sound?

[fisbangwollop]

Hey Dr Watson...well I was glad to all went well....as for Caramel wafers thanks for the offer but really no need.......thats why I am here to offer the service that I do.:ok::ok:

One thing that struck me about that incident I think at first you had picked a field then once you found you could maintain alltitude decided to creep back to PG leaving your nice safe field behind!!.......on landing I know you had little oil left so I guess a landing on the A80 may not have been so nice!! I guess though always a very difficult decision to make...the main thing is a good outcome and all safe and well. do you know the airtraffiker at Strathaven with the Kit Fox...PM is a great pal of mine and keeps promising me a flight one day....as yet I have not felt brave enough!!!

Best wishes to you. :cool::cool:

[Pace]

Pace........OK no hard feelings and thanks for the nice apology...I love my job and the guys and girls I work with so get annoyed when any one tries to put them down........next time you are flying north come up on 119.875 and say hello...if you ever night stop with the coporate jet let me know and I will buy you a beer......

FisBangWollop

Good we are best of pals and of course i would love to pop in and see you all sometime......will take you up on the beer but my treat :ok:

Pace

[Dr John Watson]

fisbangwallop,

the "airtraficker" keeps his kitfox behind my Cherokee at Strathaven. If you want a flight ( in a real aeroplane) "e" mail me and we can arrange a flight anytime that suits you. Re picking a field -that believe it or not was not an issue.I was taught to fly by Yankee Mike Anderson at Cumbernauld with Merlin Flying club of unfond memory in the late 1990's - so I had done so many PFL's in that area I knew the place of by heart. On reflection if this happened again I would be in a position to do it better. What was going through my mind was a friend had a similar occurance some years before in an Arrow and had to return to Edinburgh in IMC. He just made it - the engine seized on approach and he got charged £3,500 for recovery services!! Anyway let me know if you want to fly

[NorthSouth]

T18:Who would prefer to fly a 25 year old spamcan?Perhaps the IR/IMC holder who would prefer to have the option of flying Perth to Tiree at FL100 on more than the tiny number of days a year when it might be possible in a VFR-only aircraft.

Get it and others like it certified for IMC and it becomes a hugely more attractive aircraft.

NS

[NorthSouth]

Dr JW:The effects of all these wind farms of the radar returns was not comfortingGlasgow has been bought a brand new radar to get rid of all the radar returns from the new wind farm south of the airport.
NS

[fisbangwollop]

No fisbangwallop, the chocs left were not all for you and I had rather hoped your poor work colleague who was busy handling two Pan calls at the same time (and after an earlier Mayday call too) would maybe have been allowed a couple of them before they were all scoffed!!



Yea but he had not given up his spare time and also his evening to wait around whilst your flyin came by road due to the weather being too nice to fly in ....anyway I think you know they were greatly appreciated...nearly as much as those you bought for the poor wee lassie at the Prestwick Flight centre!!...:ok: :) ;)

[Captain Stable]

How many of those does 10W manage to nick when he happens to be feeling hungry? :E

[fisbangwollop]

10W gets none..!! :p:p:p

[Dr John Watson]

Northsouth

that's comforting to know - exactly who paid for the new radar - was it an upgrade to allow for mode S?- just curious

[fisbangwollop]

Dr John...thanks for that offer will take you up on that one day....as for a visit no problem at all, I will be in touch to arrange and please please leave the chocs at home as I may do a Colette on you!! :):):)

[Piper.Classique]

Can we all come and visit if we promise to bring choccy biscuits? Even if we are flying fifty year old taildraggers that are VFR only? I can do FL 100, more if I dig out the portable oxy bottle and buy a new mask :)
Maybe Biggles could be there to tell us all how to do it? In his jimjams for preference of course :}

[fisbangwollop]

Sounds good to me....maybe I will arrange a "top of the tree" flyin....visit Atlantic House then a local hostelry in Prestwick before a night in "The Club too far" in Ayr.....a night in a local hotel to recover then all fly home the next day....Ohhhhhh wat have i said......seems the last few pages of this thread have been hijacked by ATC...:ok::ok:

[mad_jock]

"Scottish we can accept that clearance"

Haven't had a PIK bash in years.

seems the last few pages of this thread have been hijacked by ATC well we had sort of done to death that the guy is a prat and I for one was getting quite depressed that these sort of antics are going on.

NOTAM: All pilots who try and keep up drinking with 10w, fisbang and the other ATCO's at scottish it can be very messy and makes your kidneys hurt the next day.

[fisbangwollop]

And not to mention your head!!...:cool::cool::cool::cool:

[VP959]

Crash One wrote:
Here we go again!
As far as I am aware microlights are allowed in class D.
Permit a/c are allowed in class D. And since recently, over built up settlements.
VFR was complied with.
VMC was complied with.
NPPL daytime only was complied with.
UK airspace? does the Hieland Republic of Jockistan constitute UK?
Is there anything else that I've missed?

I have no disagreement with most of the above, and, as many on here know full well, the very last thing that I would do is start any sort of anti-microlight feeling.

I do think we need to consider the true limitations that applied to this flight though, and not just assume that they were the same as most other GA flights, as they were not. I was making the very valid point that the limitations for a microlight, particularly key issues like licence revalidation, medical requirements and minimum visibility under certain conditions, are different from those appertaining to other licence holders.


VP

[Captain Stable]

How, exactly, does one "comply" with VMC? And how does that differ from complying with VFR?

[Crash one]

VP959.
So, the limitations are different. The point being?
What should we consider that the last 25 pages of "discussion" have not considered?

[Crash one]

How, exactly, does one "comply" with VMC? And how does that differ from complying with VFR?

A NPPL is not permitted to fly in IMC & cannot add an IMC rating to the licence, therefore to comply with VMC would involve remaining in VMC & not entering IMC.
Complying with VFR would involve not flying under IFR.
Seems clear enough to me:confused:

[Crash one]

Having enough money to do your own thing without asking permission means you lose the requirement to convince another Pilot to authorise your flight. This requirement is "a good thing" which is why the RAF still use it.

Probably one reason why there are very few privately owned Tornado's being flown from grass strips to Afganistan.:ugh:

[rata2e]

"How, exactly, does one "comply" with VMC? And how does that differ from complying with VFR?"

Simples. VMC minima change according to level, qualification, airspace, and aircraft type. To be VFR you must comply with these minima.

Please don't tell me you are unaware of the minima YOU require, as per ANO?

[VP959]

crash one wrote:

VP959.
So, the limitations are different. The point being?
What should we consider that the last 25 pages of "discussion" have not considered?

Please don't read anything hostile or sinister into my comment, I was simply pointing out that, as questions had been raised as to licence validity, medical declaration status and the visibility during certain parts of the flight, that it might be worth taking account of the differences for a microlight, nothing more.

Many on here who do not fly microlights may not be aware of these differences, as they tend to be buried in the depths of multiple bits of the rules. Those of us with many years microlight flying experience tend to become acutely aware of all the little quirks of the rules that make interpretation and compliance a bit of a chore at times.

VP

[NorthSouth]

Dr JW:exactly who paid for the new radar - was it an upgrade to allow for mode S?Wind farm developer paid for the new radar, which provides 'clean' coverage of the airspace overhead the wind farm. Nothing to do with Mode S since the problem is confined to primary radar only.
NS

[Dr John Watson]

NORTHSOUTH

good to know many thanks for your reply


CAA Establishes Whitelee Windfarm TMZ


The CAA has announced that a temporary Transponder Mandatory Zone (TMZ) will be established from 15 September until 6 December 2009 over the Whitelee Windfarm, south of Glasgow, to mitigate its effect on the NATS Lowther Hill radar.
The CAA commented, "Windfarms can generate unwanted returns on primary radar and degrade the performance of Secondary Surveillance Radar. The temporary TMZ has therefore been put in place to ensure the wind turbines have no adverse effect on the safety of air traffic in the area."
The TMZ will be withdrawn once NATS’ new air traffic control centre at Prestwick comes online in December 2009 with a feed from the new radar station at Kincardine in Fife. This will provide improved coverage of the airspace around the area.
The TMZ will extend from surface level to 6,000ft. Most of the TMZ will be in established Class D airspace with two small areas in uncontrolled airspace.
Phil Roberts, Assistant Director of Airspace Policy at the CAA, said: “As the majority of the TMZ covers controlled airspace most aircraft that will be affected are already transponder equipped. The local flying club at Strathaven has been consulted and due to the temporary nature of the restriction are content that there will be no major impact on their operations.”
Details of the changes will be published by NOTAM, while the AIP will be amended at AIRAC 12/2009 (19 Nov 2009).
A map showing the revised airspace can be found at www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=14&pagetype=90&pageid=10893.

[sharksandwich]

What a facinating thread!
But the most useful comment has already been made by BabyBear:
In my view the man's a nutter that needs saving from himself and I base that solely on comments from him, rather than conjecture posted here.
I suspect this is as far as any investigation into cause will get.

[dont overfil]

'Scuse me guys. Does any of this matter if as a couple of earlier posts suggest he was not even legal to fly in 100 mile vis cloudless VFR class G sky.
Sounds like a dangerous personality type not unknown in aviation.
DO.
ps It's been interesting though.

[fisbangwollop]

Too many freeby choccy biscuits was it ?


Ah Eric..never thought of that maybe some nice person poisoned that Twix biscuit sent to my sector yesterday??....:*:*:*

[fisbangwollop]

Airpolice......hey OK sorry for that...reckon it was a bad pint in Scotts at the marina.....unsure if it was the tenth or the eleventh..:):):):)never really suspected your Twix bar but would like to now who your mole is?????

Would be great to organise a pprune fly in and even I can provide transport from the flight cente ....reckon I could get at least 12 in the Reliant Robin if I put the roof down :):):)

You ca nick my jacket but please not my shorts!!!...as for a friendly voice next week it will have to be monday or tuesday after that its 14 days stress break for me!!

Take care and safe flying......:cool::cool::cool:

[dont overfil]

Captain Stable,
What I meant back in post #507 was that the detail of vmc and vfr are hardly going to be of interest to biggles if he doesn't bother with the basics such as medical and rt licence etc.
Airpolice,
You have a point. This is what happened with the thread about the new ATSOCAS. It brought to light that very few people understood the old system.
DO.

[noblue]

I have followed this thread with no small degree of fascination from the start. There are so many lessons to be learned.
While the pilot can legitimately be faulted in many ways - I think that perhaps his greatest failure of judgement was the 'decision' to go "VFR on top" of an overcast with the consequent necessity to repeatedly climb using up more fuel. I know that he has claimed that he could see the ground and navigate visually, but I am inclined to take that with a pinch of salt as others flying in the vicinity found 8/8 oktas. Had he stayed down low there would have been a different outcome in my opinion.

[dont overfil]

Noblue you may be correct but look on the bright side. His accident is in the past and nobody was hurt. With his attitude if it had not happened then it sure as hell was going to happen somewhere else in the future with perhaps a worse outcome
DO.

[Saab Dastard]

I've moved the debate on VMC / VFR and R/T phraseology to another thread.

SD

[grumpyoldgeek]

I don't know what I've liked better in this thread, the aviation-related content or the colorful usage of British wit and slang...

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Whit? That was back in May. :)

It is interesting to see kindred spirits indulging in righteous indignation and good old mob feeding frenzies.

[Munnyspinner]

This has been great sport for all and in the course of some humour and righteous indignation I have seen some good points made.


I have only recently come across flightnav and would draw attention to this for any pilot wishing to fly in areas with which they are unfamiliar - which should just about cover everyone who wants to make use fothe PPL and not just bumble around the local area.

This is an excellent resource and is not only useful to basic flight planning but has plenty of additional information and aerial view of airfields. I may be somewhat of an anorak sometimes but, ever since my early flying career I have made a point of being able to spot which aerodrome is which and now use the clues in CAA charts and pooleys/other VFR guides.

As I fly around, even on commercial flights, I take time to "navigate" my way around and usually look up airfields not stopped at but viewed from the air. Had Captain calamity taken the time and effort to plan properly - i.e. not just for what he wished and expected to happen but, for as much as might reasonably happen, he might have found Flightnav to have been a very helpful resource. He might also have been more aware of what options were available enroute and not diverted past Perth on a detour to Dundee - quite unnecessarily.


It's all about decision making - the more relevant information you have the better the results.

[Union Jack]

I take time to "navigate" may way around

Munnyspinner - Didn't realise you come from "Morningsaide"!

Jack

[B_Fawlty]

Although he hasn’t flown since the accident, Mr Hagedorn is busy setting up his air taxi company.
:eek: - even if
He said, “I’ll not be flying them. I’m not a commercial pilot so they’ll be flown by ex-British Airways pilots.” That'll be alright then :hmm:

More here (http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2009/10/07/newsstory13906738t0.asp).