PPL: Start in Oz, continue in UK?

[floydy]

First of all - Hi there, this is my first post. This forum came highly recommended so I'll be hanging around!

I wanted to get some help on a question I've been pondering since I don't want to take the casual word from a flight instructor over here in case he or she is wrong.
Basically I am looking to obtain my PPL, I have no flying experience yet. I am currently based in Sydney, Australia but am due to return to London in March 2010. I work a fulltime job and realistically I can't start my flight lessons until start of November, therefore I probably can't get the 45+ hours required flight time to obtain an entire PPL over here before I return to London.

However, I am itching to start and would like to atleast make some headway into obtaining the license. Is it possible for me to begin my PPL training here in Sydney (I am thinking at Bankstown - BWU) then continue the training in London (there I am planning Biggin Hill - BQH)?
I accept the fact that I might have to spend a few more hours learning how to deal with the busier airspace etc but it would be a shame for me to spend 20 hours here only to have it all unrecognised when I return to the UK.

Anyone have any comments or advice?

Cheers!

[BackPacker]

Yes, this is possible but it requires a bit of forethought.

First, Google for, and download something called LASORS 2008 from the CAA website. This is basically the UK ANO but interpreted by the CAA and put into a readable form, augmented with some CAA advice. (Although it's not always clear when they are interpreting the law for you, and when they are dispensing good advice.)

On your question specifically, LASORS writes:

In circumstances where previous flying training towards an ICAO PPL(A) (non-JAR-FCL) has been conducted but no licence has been issued, PLD will consider the crediting of such flight time towards the issue of a JAR-FCL PPL(A). In all cases, applicants must apply in writing to PLD enclosing appropriate training records and flying logbooks for the PPL training received. PLD will review the training records to establish a course of training and advise the applicant accordingly.
In addition to any additional training required (where there is a shortfall of requirements), applicants will be required to complete One cross-country flight of at least 270km (150nm), during which full stop landings at two different aerodromes from the aerodrome of departure shall be made, pass all the JAR-FCL PPL(A) theoretical knowledge examinations and pass the PPL(A) skill test.

(LASORS section C1.)

So what you need to do is establish a training record which is acceptable to the UK CAA. In addition to the normal logbook entries, you will need a list of exercises you've done in each flight. It also helps a lot if you get a copy of each instructors license: after a flight your instructor will normally sign a logbook entry and put his/her license number next to it. But the UK CAA has no record of AUS license numbers, hence the copy. And lastly, once you leave the Australian school, make sure they stamp, sign, whatever, your logbook and training record with "logbook entries verified and correct" or something like that.

And if you want to have the process run more smoothly even, why not write to the UK CAA beforehand and ask them what they need exactly. If you refer to LASORS section C1 they know you've done your homework and can probably answer real quickly. If you then follow their advice, and refer to their advice in the cover letter of the package which eventually goes to the UK CAA to validate your hours and decide on a further training plan, things should sail through the system.

[mjc123]

I got my full PPL in Australia some years back and converted it into a UK licence. Licensing rules have changed since I converted (in both countries I think) and slightly different situation (only being part way through training) to the situation I had. Therefore I would re-iterate the advice to do your homework on the bureacratic requirements first (LASORS is an excellent source) to ensure that you are sure about your prticular situation. I have personally always found "Flight Crew Licensing" department of UK Civil Aviation Authority very helpful when I have needed to contact them. (Small tip on finding your way around the CAA website - all these types of issues come under the Safety Regulation Directorate...)

A few further thoughts, though, which may be useful based on my experience:
- do not bank on doing a PPL in the minimum number of hours! These really are minimums not averages...
- Australia is an excelllent place to do flight training - the standard of General Aviation there is very high and an Aussie PPL always used to be extremely similar to a European one: puttting aside whatever the licensing rules are, therefore, the actual flying you would do there will stand you in good stead for the requirements of the flight test in UK.
- Do not forget ground school/theory exams - check these out in LASORs as well. I did not have to do the full set of exams again when I came back to UK but not sure what rules apply if you do not have a PPL already from Australia. You will need to do at least some of these to go solo and will need to retake some of them back in blighty (and if only part-way through check LASORS but you might find you have to retake them all). Expect at least some duplication here. Exams/ground school may not be the biggest cost of doing a PPL but do represent a significant time investment and need to be taken into account. You might also have to buy a text book in each country for at least some of the subjects... Air Law especially always used to have some subtle differences between the two countries.
- I found converting to flying in UK relatively easy - the main differences are around navigating across country where you need to navigate through different airspace requirements and navigating across England feels very different to navigating across the outback - even though the principles are the same. Reading the weather also has its differences...
- RT (speaking on the radio) is also more different than you might expect between the two countries and you would need to re-learn some of the phraseology used. I did not find that particularly difficult but did need to be taken into account. As with much in flying, if you prepare and do your homework on the ground when you get to UK on this front then will not impact on hours spent in the air.
- Any switching of schools/instructors will probably add a little to the hours you need to do in practice as you will need to get used to a different approach. Unless very budget constrained this is not an argument not to start in Australia, but I would be aware that you might effectively add a small number of hours to the process this way. This also depends a bit on how far through the training you get in Australia. Basic handling and circuits (take off and landing) is pretty much the same - how and why an aircraft flies does not change with the hemisphere and I think the syllabus is pretty much the same at this stage of training. As above, navigation does represent different challenges though, if you get to that stage in your training down under.
- Obvious point: but you do get different / wider experience if you fly in both countries which enriches your overall experience. I got to fly in situations and into types of airfield in Australia which I would be hard pressed to replicate in UK (and vice versa).
- You might also want to consider what aircraft you would learn to fly in each country - but cessnas and pipers are pretty prevalent as basic trainers in both countries. WWW makes it pretty easy to check out prices and types of aircraft available at different schools/airfields back in UK.

Hope that helps your deliberations and good luck!

[BackPacker]

- Do not forget ground school/theory exams - check these out in LASORs as well. I did not have to do the full set of exams again when I came back to UK but not sure what rules apply if you do not have a PPL already from Australia.

The situation in this respect is pretty simple. Unless you hold a full ICAO PPL, except for the flying hours, nothing is transferable to count towards your UK-issued JAR-FCL compliant PPL.

So in any case you will have to do all UK ground exams plus the R/T practical once you arrive in the UK.

Because of that, it's wise to start studying while in Australia, but it does not make a lot of sense to do exams there. With one exception: if Australian law requires a pre-solo exam (like the FAA does) then you need to do that, obviously.

[floydy]

Wow, what fantastic replies. Thanks guys.

Given what you've said it definitely seems like it's possible. I am going to take your advice BackPacker and write to the CAA querying exactly what I will require to have my Oz hours validated once I return to the UK.

Thanks for the background and thoughts mjc123, very interesting to read about the similarities and differences between both environments.

[paulthornton]

I did something similar myself. I started my PPL at Bankstown whilst working in Australia back in 2001, did my GFPT, and passed all the theory exams, and did the solo Nav flights. Unfortunately, I had to return to the UK earlier than expected - before I could do the PPL test.

I phoned the CAA from Australia before leaving and explained the situation and the person I spoke to said it wouldn't be a problem to credit the hours (can anyone guess what is coming here...?)

So back in the UK I asked the CAA what counted - and the best that I could get was a credit of 15 hours. At the time, I had about 50 hours logged and wasn't all that happy with the idea of most of my flying to date not counting; so I ended up going back to Sydney 18 months later for a month to do the test and get the PPL issued. Moral of story: get anything from the CAA in writing - although I've heard that this can be easier said than done.

Problem with Australian license is the "quick trip" down under every two years to do a BFR. I've never found any Australian instructors in the UK who can do it (there are, however, plenty of doctors around especially at Gatwick and Heathrow who can do CASA medicals if you want to keep that up to date).

I am now literally in the middle of getting a JAA PPL - and this is straightforward as others have said. As I have over 100 hours, I've just had to take Air Law and Human Performance theory, and I'm doing a skills test next week. Presumably I then enjoy a trip to Gatwick with every bit of avaition paperwork ever issued to me and I leave with a shiny new license, but we'll see how that goes :)

I think that it was a benefit to learn initially in Sydney. For example, I didn't know the area and therefore I was forced to actually learn to navigate properly rather than being able to look out of the window and say "Ah, that is Brighton" or similar. Also, the prevailing attitude to GA in Australia seems to be (or was then) that its a damned big place and you're learning to fly so you can get about - it does appear that flying a light aircraft is seen as a practical tool rather than something you do on a sunny Sunday afternoon once a month. The airspace around London is more congested than that around Sydney, but it gave me a good introduction to what was needed in terms of RT use, planning for control steps, etc. The scenery out over the Blue Mountains is fantastic of course, too.

Good luck with whatever you do - but I'd try and do some flying in Australia, its a great experience.

Paul.

[floydy]

Thanks for the help Paul.

I've booked a trial instructional 1hr flight next Saturday (22nd - if you live in South West Sydney, don't go outside around 2pm! ;)) at Bankstown with a view to continue onto part-time lessons at weekends - really looking forward to the experience!

[mikehallam]

Interesting -
I didn't subscribe a comment before as my experience was too far back to be useful, but I too started at Bankstown in 1969, whilst on a 3 month posting in Sydney. Took hours with me on return to Blighty to complete PPL(A) at Shoreham in '71 & still use the original full size log book.

[paulthornton]

Some added information I found out today - added mainly for the benefit of the archives and those who follow with the search function.

Having passed the skills test yesterday (:ok:) I trotted down to the CAA at Gatwick this morning armed with lots of paperwork to see just how easy this was going to be. My concern revolved around the FRTOL which is handled by a different section of LASORS, and it seemed on first glance that I should have taken an RT practical.

Having spoken with a very helpful lady there, I was informed that Australian PPLs were acceptable without taking the RT practical exam, but my JAA PPL would be endorsed to the fact that it relied on the Australian FRTOL. This isn't mentioned in LASORS anywhere that I could find, but she confirmed it with another staff member and wrote 'Not required' in the RT section of the application form, so it must be true...
At any stage in the future (so sooner rather than later) I can take an RT practical exam and then the CAA will remove this restriction on the license, and the two licenses will be fully independent.

They took copies of my Australian PPL, medical, and UK medical; but they kept the log book. I wonder what comments might be made about the one hour in the B738 sim... I made sure I copied everything before I went down there as I wasn't sure what they would need.

So I'm eagerly awaiting another license in a couple of weeks time now. I will report any other developments that may be of interest to anyone.

Paul.

[BackPacker]

You might want to get that R/T practical out of the way soon. If your JAA license (partly) depends on the validity of your Australian license and if anything happens to that license, then the house of cards will start to crumble.

So if any part your Australian license is going to expire anytime soon, make sure you know what the exact consequences are!

[paulthornton]

Backpacker,

Yes - I'm going to do the RT as soon as I can for exactly this reason.

The only problem with doing it this way is that I'll have to pay them £84 to remove the restriction - if I'd been a bit more sensible, I could have done the RT beforehand and never had this link to the Australian PPL.

More importantly... Floydy how did your flight go?

Paul.

[floydy]

Hi guys,

I had a great first flight. It was the introductory trial flight with an instructor who works there full time who took care of everything without hassle. I arrived and was in the plane within 5 minutes, I was quite shocked at how casual everything was - after all those commercial flights filled with security points and other safety issues, this was definitely slightly different!
We had a Cessna 152, being 6'5", I found it a little bit of a squeeze and was offered to switch up to a Cessna 172 but after a few seat adjustments I was strapped in ready to go.
The plan was to head north, fly to the Northern beaches (Manly etc) and then return to Bankstown, however, it was a warm sunny day but visibility up north was low so we decided to head south instead which isn't anywhere near as scenic but it allowed me to concentrate on the flying a bit more I suppose.
We did some turns and I was on the controls (just the stick, not thottle, trim and all the rest of it!) probably for 50% of the flight which was a great first flight. I got very queezy about midway through the flight which was a terrible shame as I was really enjoying it up there - a bit of air in the cabin helped things slightly and we killed about 10 minutes doing some turns and then heading back for Bankstown.
We did a touch and go circuit at the end on 29R and then a circuit back around to land on 29C.

Overall I had a great flight but I am a bit worried about the sickness I felt mid-way, is this normal for a first flight in a small plane? - it's obviously a lot more bouncy and subject to turbulence than the massive commercial jets I am accustomed to - I've only once felt airsickness on a rough flight to Spain once so I was surprised by my reaction to the Cessna. Any comments or advice regarding this?

Cheers!

[paulthornton]

Hi Floydy,

Glad you had a good first flight, and yes GA is a little more relaxed than flying commercially - although it can be a bit more hassle at larger airports.

From the weather conditions you describe, I can imagine that it was a bit lively in a 152, and if there was a bit of haze and an the visual horizon isn't too distinct this can add to the brain's confusion and feed motion sickness.

I think we've all felt queasy at some point in a light aircraft - I wouldn't write yourself off just because of one flight, see how you go after another one or two maybe earlier in the day before the ground has a chance to heat up and generate thermal activity and the bumpy ride.
(someone actually in Australia may be better placed to comment on weather patterns at this time of year and when the ride may be best - August and September are the only months I haven't spent time in Sydney so I'm not sure exactly what its like).

Paul.

[paulthornton]

Well all is good, and I now hold a nice shiny JAA PPL. This conversion from an ICAO license does indeed work and I now have the paperwork to prove it!

The RT license has been issued with a dependency on the Australian RT license, but as I've already mentioned that is just a case of doing the comms theory paper and the test. LASORS wasn't that helpful with the RT info; so I'd advise anyone else planning to do this route to check with the CAA first. Apparently there is this unwritten allowance that Australian and Canadian PPLs with an RT license don't need to do the test here - but not many people at the CAA seem to know that. The person who issued my license didn't - I had to ask him to check with someone else.

All told, it was quite a pain free process, and the people I dealt with at the SRG were all very helpful and pleasant.

Paul.

[Bryn the Sheepdog]

Flloydy - have a good look around as I think there are some FTOs in Oz which teach the JAA syllabus and are recognised by the CAA.

[Hot High Heavy]

Floydy, how are you going with the flight training?

I'm finishing off a CPL at Moorabbin in Melbourne and am considering moving to the UK to try and find work (i was born in Blighty so have the passport!).

Thanks for posting the thread.