Hold Entry

[masterwarning10]

Hi guys.
Recently did my line check with one of our better training captains. Was on the STAR for our destination airport which was busy and we were told to expect to hold. Cpt told me to dump the FMS and manually fly the hold for training.

Inbound track was 280, right hand off a vor 20d out to 25d – simples

Direct entry. Approaching the fix, ATC comfirmed hold and contact approach.

I passed over the fix and turned outbound, doing 180kts. Glanced at the time and used 3d as a cross check. At 3d (23d) and roughly 1 min later I turned to establish on the inbound radial. Cpt asked me what I was doing and insisted that I continue outbound for 5d (25d) before turning. I replied that we were not yet established in the hold and that I needed to establish on the inbound radial, pass over the fix and then fly the published holding pattern.

Cpt insisted that I was wrong so to avoid a row I continued out to 5d before turning and suggested that we continue the discussion on the ground.

Am I wrong. I was taught that the entry, be it direct or otherwise, was simply a maneuver to establish on the inbound radial as quickly as possible before flying the holding pattern. More importantly, what do you guys expect an a/c to do when told to hold from a direct entry?

Thanks in advance

Ps – On the ground, I explained my thinking to the cpt who agreed not to include it in the line check. Still insisted I was wrong. By the way, anyone know what document holds the definition – JAR, ICAO etc.

[Glamdring]

As far as I was taught your captain is right. For a direct entry once you pass the fix and turn outbound that is you in the hold.

[Otto Throttle]

That's why it's called a direct entry.

However, you were right to decide to hold the discussion on the ground, and not in the air. Priority is to fly the aircraft.

[Thunderbug]

I'm with Glamdring...

The skipper is right. A direct entry join is exactly that - directly into the hold at the fix. The hold dimension was out to 25d so that was your point to turn back inbound.

T'Bug :ok:

[masterwarning10]

Tx for reply's - I live and learn.

I was taught during my IR that you are not in the hold till you are established on the inbound radial. Therefore, a direct entry on a heading other than the published inbound radial is just a maneuver to get established and then fly the hold.

Mind you, given some of the comments on another forurm re the school I did my IR in, then it wouldnt surprise me if they were wrong!!

Tx again

[Guzzler]

You may be a little confused in terminology here.

If it was a Direct join there would be no need to turn as you passed the fix.

[DFC]

Two issues;

1. A direct entry means that at the fix, the aircraft heading is such that a turn onto the outbound track will keep the aircraft in the holding area.
Thus at the fix they turn to fly the outbound leg and at the end of the outbound leg they turn to fly the inbound leg.

2. The hold appears to be at 20 dme and the outbound leg is limited to 25 dme. There is no requirement to fly all the way out to 25 DME if one can turn inbound before that and fly an inbound leg. The 25 DME limit may be just right for a CAT C aircraft however, if a CAT A went all the way to 25 DME and then turned inbound, it could take a long time to get back to the fix into a headwind at say 120Kt.

So one is correct - on a direct entry you start a normal hold pattern at the fix.

The other is also correct - with a DME limit on the outbound leg, this is a limit and there is never a requirement to always fly as far as that limit be it an hold entry or nornal hold pattern.

Regards,

DFC

[Quincy M.E.]

The hold is designed with the assumption that the outbound led is flown up until the DME limit (or specified timing) for all CATs.

[Fratemate]

You may be a little confused in terminology here.

If it was a Direct join there would be no need to turn as you passed the fix.

I don't think it's him whose confused by the terminology.

Sector 1 or Parallel join = over the fix, continue outbound on the inbound course and at the approriate time/distance, turn towards the holding side and keep the turn going to establish on the inbound course.

Sector 2 or Offset join = turn over the fix, towards the holding side, by 30 degs and then turn back towards the fix at the appropriate time/distance to establish on inbound track.

Sector 3 or DIRECT join = turn over the fix, directly onto the outbound course.

[Dont Hang Up]

There is a germ of truth in Masterwarning's training school teaching.

If the hold is pure NDB with no other aids, it is very difficult to establish if you are on a tidy outbound leg from a direct entry.

Only when you are established on the inbound track can you estimate wind drift properly and compensate on the next outbound leg.

[DFC]

The hold is designed with the assumption that the outbound led is flown up until the DME limit (or specified timing) for all CATs.


True. But there is nothing that prevents the hold being completed well within the maximum limits.

ie. 20d to 25d represents a 1 minute leg at something like 280Kt. At 120 Kt, one can safely fly a standard hold ( 1 minute legs) and not go anywhere near the limits.

Thus if the flight has continued outbound for the planned time but not yet reached the DME limit there is no requirement for the leg to be extended until the limit is reached.

[masterwarning10]

The plot thickens. tx again for all posts

DFC - very interesting. I have researched this as much as I can and, as usual in Aviation Law, its as clear as mud. The only document I can find is one which compares Transports Canada's definitions for holding to ICAO (PANS-OPS)

It wouls appear to support your assertion that a hold defined by DME, in this case 20d out to 25d, means that 25d must not be exceeded as it will take you outside the protection of the hold. However it dosent say that one can turn earlier, eg after 1 minute as I did, and thats a pity as it makes good sence.

Holding

Bank Angle

Make all turns at a bank angle of 25° or at a rate of 3° per second, whichever requires the lesser bank. ICAO procedures do not allow correcting for winds by adjusting bank angle. Attempt to correct both heading and timing to compensate for the effects of wind to ensure the inbound track is regained before passing the holding fix inbound.

Limiting Radial.

When holding away from a NAVAID, where the distance from the holding fix to the NAVAID is short, a limiting radial may be specified. A limiting radial may also be specified where airspace conservation is essential. If you encounter the limiting radial first, initiate a turn onto the radial until you turn inbound. Do not exceed the limiting DME distance, if published.

Holding Entry Procedure.

The ICAO holding entry procedure is a mandatory procedure and is the same as Canadian entry procedures.

Anyone able to quote the appropiate governing EU-OPS / ICAO document??

Cheers

[BOAC]

All a bit esoteric (unless, of course, you are being 'trapped':eek:) but I thought the idea was to fly outbound the equivalent of 1 minute's groundspeed to try to get the inbound leg as close to1 min as you can - hence the '1 sec per knot' I have always used. Like mw10 I would bow to the 'training captain' of course for the 'test', but I reckon the OP was right at 23D (Edit to add: Depending on wind). Take it to its illogical conclusion and fly out to 25D at 120kts with a 60kt headwind and see how long the whole '4 minute hold' takes!

BTW, I thought the examiners always treated the 'first' hold as a 'freebie' and expected a sensible correction on the next?