Commander's discretion

[9.G]

Gents question regarding the commander's discretion while on extended duty?
I'd be interested in finding out the practice in other outfits operating in accordance with EU OPS? What's the general take on going into discretion while already being on planned extended duty? Is that legitimate or not, if so how what's the maximum extension? Any reference material is appreciated.
Cheers.

[Henry VIII]

Hi 9.G,
in my company, according to EU-OPS 1.1120, cdr discretion to extend FDP during actual ops (not in planning of course) is allowed for unforseen circumstances only, after consultation with all other crew member and limited to max 2 hrs if minimum flight crew or max 3 hrs if augmented flight crew.
Those figures have to be applied to the basic daily FDP (OPS 1.1105).

[BOAC]

What exactly is planned extended duty?

[Nightrider]

Waking up the screwing department here...

The max duty is 13:00 hrs, it can be planned 2 times in 7 days to be 14:00....and this can be extended by up to 1 hr using captain's discretion.

Regularly used now in Morocco following the JAR-FCL....

[Bealzebub]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "extended duty?"
What is the cause of the extension?
If it is an FTL approved variation the maximum period of available discretion is usually reduced as part of the terms of the variation.

In other cases, the commander may at his discretion and after taking note of the circumstances of other members of his/her crew extend an FDP beyond that normally permitted, provide he/she is satisfied the flight can be made safely. The extension shall be calculated according to what actually happens, not on what was planned to happen. An extension of 3 hours is the maximum permitted except in cases of emergency. If the FDP involves 2 or more sectors a maximum of 2 hours discretion may be excercised prior to the first and subsequent sectors, but this may be 3 hours prior to the start of a single sector flight or immediately prior to the last sector of a multi-sector flight.
There is no particular requirement to consult with other crewmembers, only to note the circumstances that may be applicable to those individuals with regards to an extension (for example prior rest and extensions etc.)

[BOAC]

Still waiting an answer for 9.G (unless we have one:)) but for nightrider - what is the '13 hours'? FTL or industrial agreement?

[excrab]

9.G

Nightrider seems to have got it correct, the reference is in Eu ops subpart Q - I'm afraid I'm not clever enough to put a link in, but if you google it you will find Eu ops in its entirety as a downloadable pdf. The 13 hours may be extended up to 14 hours twice in seven days as a planned rostered duty. As you are allowed 2 hours discretion on a 13 hour day you are allowed 1 hour on top of a 14 hour day ie up to 15 hours maximum - that would then be reduced for extra sectors, time in the WOCL etc. Certainly whre I work this is the way that the rules are implemented and is as published in the ops manual.

BOAC

The 13 hours is the max duty for a two sector day under Eu ops subpart Q FTLs. It is shortened for multiple sectors and flights at stupid oclock (Window of circadian low or WOCL) in a similar manner to the way that FDPs are adjusted in cap 371 for late finishes and early starts.

Hope that helps. Personally I find cap371 to be far more user friendly, but maybe that's just because I've used it for so long.

[9.G]

excrab nightrider, thanx guys much appreciated. I entirely concur with the interpretation of 1 max discretion while being on planned extended duty. Just wanted to gather more info on this one. :ok:
excrab you opened a can of worms here mate, CAP 371 is indeed a master peace on it's own. I for my self just love it. EU OPS part Q unlike cap 371 doesn't regulate max DUTY while being called out of standby some few other glitches etc. Guess in the end EU OPS is gonna adopt CAP 371 as suitable for all sorts of operators.
Cheers.:ok:

[BOAC]

Thanks EC - that's the way I understand it too (I fully agree with you about 371:ok:) and since it is, to me, quite clear from the wording that 15 is 'the max' in normal ops I thought we needed to establish whether there were some other 'factors'.

[Nightrider]

Sorry BOAC, was unable to reply any earlier, was down-route.
The CAP371 is much more restrictive and as mentioned here already, the EU-OPS allows the 13 hrs plus the scheduled 1 hr extension plus the 1 hr discretion. Of course, there are reductions for WOCL, landings etc....

Interpretations in some countries, since no comments have (yet) been issued, are getting absurd. The funny (not!) part starts where the English version has been translated into French, this version being "tuned" by the respective CAA and legislator to look like a law, the now available basic document made available to crew in English language with all the errors and "improving" thoughts for multiple interpretations.

As always, limits are there to be reached, not to be observed. And violations are easily dealt with, a report about some unforeseen circumstances, accompanied by the statement that all crew agreed to the captains suggestions for discretion and all is sorted.

:mad:

[BOAC]

Interpretations in some countries, since no comments have (yet) been issued, are getting absurd. The funny (not!) part starts where the English version has been translated into French, this version being "tuned" by the respective CAA and legislator to look like a law, the now available basic document made available to crew in English language with all the errors and "improving" thoughts for multiple interpretations.
- ah! Now I understand. It is not the regulations, it is, as ever, that well-known EU-wide 'implementation' of them.:mad:. Bad luck all.

Have you tried EU-OPS themselves? Might be a waste of time, but you never know.

This Regulation shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States.
Done at Brussels, 20 August 2008.
For the Commission
Antonio TAJANI
Vice-President