Advice on flying in/to Germany (EDNY)?

[In_a_Spin]

Hi,
I am planning my first flight into German airspace next week, to Friedrichshafen in a C182 and would appreciate any words of advice from those in the know.

We have the Jeppesen charts; is it worthwhile getting the (rather expensive) 'trip kit' also, or is there a way of getting visual approach plans etc? Unlike France, these don't seem to be freely available on the web. Does anyone know how easy it is to get cleared through the low restricted airspace corridors (usually 800'AGL upwards)?

Would be grateful for any comments on our current route planned as follows:

1st leg: Leicester (EGBG) to Le Touquet (LFAT), skirting the east of the Stansted CTA - I'm familiar with that part.

2nd leg: CMB and overhead LFGS and LFGV to land at
EDSB (Karlsruhe / Baden-Baden) also for fuel - do you know the airport? We thought this would give us a useful stop before reaching high ground, in case of a low cloud-base.

3rd Leg: via VOR. From there, course 142 to VFR reporting point NOVEMBER for entry into Friedrichshafen airspace.

Cheers,
:confused:
In_a_Spin

[BackPacker]

You can access most, if not all, of the German AIP via the Eurocontrol site: EUROCONTROL - The European AIS Database: Introduction to EAD Basic - Home (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/). (Registration required, then look for an application "PAMS Light (AIP)". For Germany, the textual info for EDNY is in AIP type "AIP"; "AD" but the VFR+IFR charts are in AIP type "Charts"; "AD". PAMS Light is a bit of a fiddly application to find your way around in.)

Having said that, I prefer to use the Jeppesen VFR Trip Kit (formerly Bottlang) for these types of trips. Not that expensive, IMHO, at just over 50 euros for the whole of Germany. (http://jeppdirect.jeppesen.com/product_listing_template.jsp?pageSize=31&catId=cat10091&start=1) All the aerodrome information for VFR flight in one convenient package, optimized for in-cockpit use. And when flying VFR, you never know when and where you're going to have to divert.

And of course a trip kit is just a one-off, current-when-printed-but-no-updates-provided Jeppesen VFR guide, which in itself is a subset of the Jeppesen IFR guide. You can access the exact same materials with a JeppView account (or similar). If you know someone with a JeppView subscription you could ask him/her to print off the relevant pages for you.

[hatzflyer]

I did much the same trip couple of weeks ago to Tannheim (just a bit further over).
The route reccomended to me which worked well was Abbeville Nancy (fuel and food stop[ total card required but usually someone in the aeroclub with one that will take cash in exchange] ..very friendly,offered FREE lunch). Haguenau then hop the high ground.
Haguenau/Strasbourge is where the bad weather is likely to be if there is any. From the clubhouse at Haguenau you can see the peaks of the high ground, so it is a good waiting point if the weather isn't playing ball.(as was the case with us!).
We were weathered in there for a day in torrential rain and then had to go north parallel to the hills and cross where they are lower.However ,landing there did give us options,rather than pushing into the really high ground in deteriorating conditions and daylight.
Whatever way you go I hope you have a good one!

[what next]

Hello!

Does anyone know how easy it is to get cleared through the low restricted airspace corridors (usually 800'AGL upwards)?

In Germany? Never heard of anything like that! Between the French border and EDSB and between EDSB and EDNY there is no airspace restriction at all. Apart from ED-R 9 that covers the whole of Germany and starts at 10.000 ft MSL, above which a clearance is required for VFR flying (which is near impossible to get).

Try to download the AIP plates as Backpacker suggests for the airports that you want to visit (or send me an Email in case you have difficulties with it).
If you can get it in time, the "Fliegertaschenkalender" is always nice to have (R. Eisenschmidt GmbH, Fliegertaschenkalender Ausgabe 2009 (http://www.eisenschmidt.de/product_info.php?products_id=4747)). It is a bit like your Pooleys guide but much smaller in size and should give you enough information for landing on every aerodrome in Germany in case of a diversion (just bear in mind that there are no overhead joins here. Traffic pattern altitude is usually 1000 ft above aerodrome altitude und you join downwind unless otherwise instructed.).

Both EDSB and EDNY have quite expensive landing fees. For your refuelling stop, either Lahr (EDTL), Freiburg (EDTF) or Donaueschingen (EDTD) could be cheaper alternatives in the vicinity. Or Speyer (EDRY) on the Rhine in the north if you have to avoid high ground due to weather.

Greetings, Max

[bookworm]

You can access most, if not all, of the German AIP via the Eurocontrol site

The German VFR AIP is not on EAD. You can get the AIP text and airport charts, but not the VFR arrival and departure procedures.

[Pat210]

I can recommend Saarbrucken as a GA friendly, economical(12 euros landing) and well equiped airfield staging point. Was there in April last time, quick turn round if required, friendly staff and restaurant if required.

[007helicopter]

Pat210 out of interest where did you get your charts for the trip from?

[In_a_Spin]

Thanks, folks - this is the first time I've used PPRuNe and I'm really impressed by the helpful advice :): just need to find a couple of hours to follow up your leads, and see if I've got time to get the Trip Kit.

Thanks, Max,
The areas I referred to are actually in France, en route. I'm not yet as familiar with Jeppesen maps as the CAA ones, but it seems to me that areas such as 'LF(R)-45N4' (800'AGL to 3800') could well force us up into IMC unless we get cleared through. :uhoh:

Or am I making some very basic error, here?
Cheers,
John

[BackPacker]

see if I've got time to get the Trip Kit.

To order your trip kit, call Jeppesen direct. Don't go through an intermediate party such as an online reseller or your local pilot shop. They won't have stock anyway (gets outdated too fast) and thus will phone Jeppesen on your behalf, which adds its own delay. AFAIK, Jeppesen prints everything on-demand. They don't hold paper stock, except maybe for some things that do not go out of date.

Tell Jepp by when you need the kit and if necessary they can make it a rush order. They might charge a little more for that though.

The call center number I have for Europe is +49 6102 5070 but that's a few years old and might be outdated. Don't forget to order appropriate binders for the kit as well otherwise you'll end up with a very big stack of loose paperwork.

There's also a "general" part to the trip kit which contains stuff like volmet frequencies, marshalling signals, emergency ground signals and a few other things that are either useful as a reference, or are a required item for international flight (interception signals come to mind). Might as well get that too.

Or am I making some very basic error, here?

Not so much an error, as well as forgetting something. Those Danger/Restricted areas may well be time-limited or activated by NOTAM. So you have to check the flight guide/trip kit for the details of that area. A whole load of those areas are only active when the military needs them and, like most folks, they try not to work weekends for instance.

Specifically for R45N4 I found the following in the French AIP:

LF R 45 N4 MOSELLE

49o22’45”N,006o31’07”E – 48o41’03”N,006o41’16”E -
48o40’18”N,006o33’48”E – 49o22’21”N,006o23’29”E -
49o22’45”N,006o31’07”E

800ft ASFC -- 3800ft AMSL

Entrainement très grande vitesse, très basse altitude. Le pilote n’assure pas la prévention des collisions. Altitude maximale du plafond 3800 ft AMSL

Contournement obligatoire pendant les créneaux d’activation.

Gestionnaire : CDPGE Athis—Mons.

Connaissance des créneaux d’activation par :
-- Internet www.sia.aviation--civile.gouv.fr (rubrique Notam -- AZBA du jour)
-- Tél vert 0800 24 54 66
-- CIV
-- AD Metz--Frescaty, Metz--Nancy--Lorraine, Nancy--Ochey, Epinal, Nancy--Essey et Strasbourg.

Sauf JF.
LUN : 0730--1000 et 1130—1500.
MAR, JEU : 0730--1000 et 1130 – LS-30
MER : 0730--1000 et CS+30 – 2400.
VEN : 0730—1000.
HIV : +1HR.


So they're doing high-speed training at low altitude and you need to fly around the area, but the activation times are very limited. At least, that's what I glean from this with my limited French.

Beauty of the Trip Kit is of course that the good folks at Jeppesen have nicely translated this in English... :ok:

(By the way, I accessed the French AIP via the Eurocontrol site at EUROCONTROL - The European AIS Database: Introduction to EAD Basic - Home (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int). Registration required, then look for an application called "PAMS Light (AIP)". It requires some minutes of fiddling with the options to get the information you need. The French AIP is also available from SIA : Service d'information aéronautique. Contrôle et réglementation de la circulation aérienne. (http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/))

[KeesM]

In Germany? Never heard of anything like that! Between the French border and EDSB and between EDSB and EDNY there is no airspace restriction at all. Apart from ED-R 9 that covers the whole of Germany and starts at 10.000 ft MSL, above which a clearance is required for VFR flying (which is near impossible to get).


If I remember well Germany has those mill. low flying areas 1 to .. as shown on the Jeppessen maps.

And some(most) fields have German R/T only. Most of the time one get an answer in English but do not count on that.

-Kees

[what next]

Hello!

If I remember well Germany has those mill. low flying areas 1 to .. as shown on the Jeppessen maps.

There are none in that part of Germany that he intends to visit. And they are not restricted airspace anyway for daytime VFR flying. But since you may encounter low-flying miltary traffic anywhere in Germany, the official advice is to stay above 2000ft AGL whenever weather and airspace permits. (There used to be a military corridor all along the black forest right across the intended track, but that has disappeared over ten years ago.)

And some(most) fields have German R/T only.

I have no statistics, but I would say that 3/4 have German and English RT. It is written on the Jeppesen/Bottlang charts what languages are spoken. And every airfield/airport with a control zone or class F airspace must provide English RT.

Greetings, Max

[BackPacker]

I have no statistics, but I would say that 3/4 have German and English RT. It is written on the Jeppesen/Bottlang charts what languages are spoken. And every airfield/airport with a control zone or class F airspace must provide English RT.

They are usually able, sometimes required, to speak English *to you*. But the rest of the circuit traffic may be talking in German. And even en-route Langen Info & similar will speak German with the German traffic.

Having a rudimentary understanding of German, and a crib sheet with the common phrases in the circuit may help a lot with your situational awareness. And if you can say "Guten Tag" and "Auf Wiedersehen", so much better. Even if the rest of your RT is in English.

[KeesM]

When it comes to German RT maybe the following link will help a bit.
It will not make one fluent in German R/T.
Flugfunk/Sprechfunkbeispiele (http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/~fp/fliegerei/ausbildung/sprechfunk/sprechfunk5.html)



-Kees

[BackPacker]

Oh, and by the way, the same applies to France of course. They may speak English to you but between French pilots and French controllers the language is normally French.

French Phraseology (http://www.higher.flyer.co.uk/franglais.html)