Operational Reasons?

[Flypuppy]

So there I am fat dumb and happy and I receive a text message. BA have told me that they are canceling my flight back home from LGW due to "operational reasons".

This leaves me with a slight problem as there is no flight home until Sunday - so I am stranded in London for an extra 2 nights and my opinion of BA has just gone through the floor.

I am just guessing - obviously - that as I have been given so much forewarning of this that it can't be an aircraft going tech, and given the fleet that BA have I can't believe they would have trouble finding a suitable replacement a/c for the route. So I am left wondering if they have just pulled the flight due to a lack of pax. As the customer service office doesn't open until 0600 I was wondering what recourse I have with BA to be able to find another way home or do they have a duty to provide me with accommodation until the next available flight departs on Sunday. Anyone any ideas?

[Phileas Fogg]

Operational reasons could cover anything, I had a call from BA some years ago, the day before the flight, to say they were cancelling for technical reasons.

'Bullsh1t' I told them, you've got 24 hours to source a replacement aircraft, they didn't and having been rebooked on an alternative carrier, whereas the minimal load of 2 combined flights clearly indicated the, so called, 'technical' reason, and my suitcase having arrived in a absolutely destroyed condition BA told me it was that other carrier's problem, despite travelling on a BA ticket, and the other carrier having no representation in UK.

When I questioned of BA who on god's earth decided they were the world's favourite airline they got the hump.

R.I.P. British Airways and the sooner the better, 7 years later they still haven't recompensed me for that suitcase so they can go to hell as far as I'm concerned :)

[Malone]

Phileas,
I am not too sure why you should think that BA should have any responsibility for your luggage when you did not travel with them.
Surely the airline you travelled with had representation at your destination when you discovered your damaged case?
I understand your feelings about your cancelled flight but this comment regarding luggage seems to be irrelevant and just another "moan".
With regards to accomodation etc, it is my experience that BA will try their utmost to get passengers accomodation if they are away from their home base, if they cannot get you to your destination by another route.
They have a "hold" on rooms at hotels for precisely this purpose. This also tends to be organised locally.
Also, Flypuppy, BA just do not have huge numbers of replacement aircraft these days, their fleet is not as large as you may think, especially at LGW. They do borrow from LHR if at all possible.

[James 1077]

I am not too sure why you should think that BA should have any responsibility for your luggage when you did not travel with them.


Nut Phileas did travel with BA. That is who he paid for his ticket and that is who his contract was with. If BA wishes to sub-contract the flight to someone else then fine - but Phileas' contract remains with BA and it should be up to BA to recompense Phileas and then claim it back from their sub-contractors.

[Panop]

rebooked on an alternative carrierThis is not the same as sub contracting a flight. Any loss or damage to luggage is the responsibility of the carrier who's flight you are on - the carrier issuing the ticket is generally irrelevant to such claims, I think you will find (and which Mr Fogg HAS found!).

Back to the thread "Operational Reasons" is a useful catch all phrase that could mean just about anything from "We've run out of serviceable planes", through "the pilot got held up in traffic", "It was foggy yesterday morning and we haven't caught up yet" to "We're only the handling agent and we don't have a clue why but it's going to be late/cancelled."

[Bealzebub]

'Bullsh1t' I told them, you've got 24 hours to source a replacement aircraft, they didn't and having been rebooked on an alternative carrier, whereas the minimal load of 2 combined flights clearly indicated the, so called, 'technical' reason, and my suitcase having arrived in a absolutely destroyed condition BA told me it was that other carrier's problem, despite travelling on a BA ticket, and the other carrier having no representation in UK.

Nut Phileas did travel with BA. That is who he paid for his ticket and that is who his contract was with. If BA wishes to sub-contract the flight to someone else then fine - but Phileas' contract remains with BA and it should be up to BA to recompense Phileas and then claim it back from their sub-contractors.

If the airline terminates the contract then you would need to consult the conditions of carriage to understand what terms you accepted when you entered into the contract. In addition there are statutory conditions that might apply in your case. For example EU denied boarding compensation rules. The airline would certainly be required to refund the monies you had paid for the ticket in addition to any statutory compensation. However if a passenger is re-booked on another carrier at their individual request, then the ticket is endorsed to the new carrier. This permits the new carrier to receive consideration for the transportation. This is quite distinct from the situation where the original airline sub contracts another airline to operate its own service.

If the ticket is endorsed to another carrier and you accept that endorsement, then your contract is with the new carrier who will accept responsiblity for you in accordance with their own conditions of carriage.

[James 1077]

However if a passenger is re-booked on another carrier at their individual request, then the ticket is endorsed to the new carrier. This permits the new carrier to receive consideration for the transportation. This is quite distinct from the situation where the original airline sub contracts another airline to operate its own service.

If the ticket is endorsed to another carrier and you accept that endorsement, then your contract is with the new carrier who will accept responsiblity for you in accordance with their own conditions of carriage.


This may be another of those legal versus customer service arguments that come up all the time in the SLF section.

As far as I am concerned, as a passenger, I have paid the airline money to get me from A to B. My contract is with that airline. If the airline can not uphold its terms of the contract then it can, as you say, either refund me my money and pay me compensation or arrange for its contract to be upheld (ie get me from A to B).

If it decides to get me from A to B on a different airline then fine with me; it is upholding its contract with me by sub-contracting this part of the service to the different airline. I have, when this has happened to me, never been told that my acceptance of this means that I no longer have a contract with the airline and now have one with the new airline - instead I am told something alone the lines of: "we can get you on a flight with Air Other leaving at X:XX - is this OK with you?".

No they haven't wet leased the aeroplane from Air Other - but they have sub-contracted the service of getting me from A to B to that airline. If anything else goes wrong then I would naturally talk to the airline that my ticket is with to get it fixed.

[Bealzebub]

No, The airline is then only acting as an agent for the new carrier.

Extract from general conditions of carriage.
15g) General

15g1) If we:

issue a ticket for you to be carried on another carrier; or
check in baggage for carriage on another carrier;
we do so only as agent for that carrier. If you have a claim for checked baggage, you may make it against the first or last carrier or against the carrier performing the carriage during which the damage took place.

[Munnyspinner]

Operational reasons - this could mean

"We are cancelling your journey because we will not make a profit on this flight and it is much easier for us to consolidate a few flights together as this will make much better use of aircraft and staff resource. We're sorry if you don't like this but hell, we know you have no alternative -if you did, we wouldn't be able to do this -and it is what the flying public are now used to, thanks to Michael O'Leaky. So, have a pleasant few days of unexpected ( bonus) time in London."

Remember the above when you get the obligatory " we thank you for choosing BA and flying with us today. Your custom is valuable to us and we look forward to welcoming you aboard again in the future "

Fat chance! Bye, Bye, BA.

[draughtsman99]

We're sorry if you don't like this but hell, we know you have no alternative -if you did, we wouldn't be able to do this -and it is what the flying public are now used to, thanks to Michael O'Leaky.Amazing the lengths some people will go to to contrive a dig at Ryanair!.

London Air have let me down on the last 4 occasions I booked with them. Ryanair have never let me down - so who gets my money?

Operational reasons? Well if Bloody Awful are short of a plane you can be sure the first one to be used will be from the Glasgow route.
Operational reasons are blamed when you find yourself being bussed from Edinbugger to Glasgow with 20 other people. Why aren't they honest enough to say 'we are saving a fortune by sending you all to one destination and then bussing you'.

Wow, where did that rant come from? - must not forget my medication (which I didn't need until BA was privatised! ).

[Rollingthunder]

Headline - BA Provides replacement Aircraft for Disgruntled Passenger

http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/183785/1/Royal-Aircraft-Factory-Se5,-Single-Seater-With-Vickers-And-Lewis-Gun,-Powered-By-Hispano-Suiza,-1914-18.jpg

[Capot]

o, The airline is then only acting as an agent for the new carrier.Extract from general conditions of carriage.
Quote:
15g) General

15g1) If we:

issue a ticket for you to be carried on another carrier; or
check in baggage for carriage on another carrier;
we do so only as agent for that carrier. If you have a claim for checked baggage, you may make it against the first or last carrier or against the carrier performing the carriage during which the damage took place. BA cannot change the law by writing conditions that suit the company. This could well be regarded as an unfair contract, even if the basic premise that they are "only acting as an agent" is arguable. For a start, the purchaser has not been offered a look at the other carrier's Terms & Conditions which BA is trying to say are applicable ones.

More people should use the Small Claims procedure without hesitation as soon as they come up against a large company acting unfairly. It's inexpensive and effective not least because the large company will, if it suspects it might lose, settle to avoid a judgement.

[man friday]

Flypuppy,

check out EU reg 261/2004

it tell you exactly what BA should offer you.
had a dispute a month or so ago with them regards a cancelled flight and subsequent reroute. Exec club staffs attitute was f.u over the phone, however an email with a cut and paste of the above worked a treat!

[Solar]

R T
If BA were to offer the that as an alternative I would make a point of being disgruntled.
A classic.

Solar

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Capot has it spot on.

Take BA to the small claims court and get them to explain to the judge why having taken the money they then cancel a flight, shift poor passenger to another airline, and wash their hands of all responsibility.

One suspects the judge would tell BA to get their cheque book out and stop wasting his time.

Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations apply to airline/passenger contracts. Airline employees need to know this, obviously not taught in groundschool. Airline terms and conditions are a joke and they will bully you into thinking you are somehow bound by them when you quite often aren't.