BA to lose another 100 pilots

[overstress]

On top of the 78 we're losing already :eek:

[StudentInDebt]

Nothing like a little invective eh? For starters no-one is being made redundant at BA, the 78 have accepted voluntary redundancy as part of a negotiated productivity improvement package. Secondly, BA has merely filed the required notice to consult over the possibility of redundancy, the exact number of pilots in surplus has yet to be decided. More importantly, both the company and the BA CC believe that the surplus can be managed using methods other than redundancy. But why let the truth get in the way of a good headline :hmm:

[wiggy]

Dress it up in whatever language you want, it's not great news, hence Overstress's "eeek" ( now edited out:confused:).

The Company are in the process of releasing 78 pilots as part of a VR package ( AFAIK funded by the remaining pilots by productivity changes) and are looking for a possible reduction of another 100 pilots/MPE/or want the equivalent in cost savings.

[overstress]

Invective, "insulting, abusive, highly critical language" :confused::confused:

Sorry, SiD, don't see that. I just see BA starting the process to lose another 100 pilot jobs and your comments cannot detract from that. :suspect:

[StudentInDebt]

Overstress - Perhaps invective was too strong, my comments were aimed at presenting a more balanced view of what has been announced. Your topic title, "BA to loose another 100 pilots", is not currently the case and could be seen as being rather alarming. :uhoh: Reading between various lines it is clear that BA expect that the surplus will be a temporary one and compulsory redundancy is to be avoided as far as possible. :ok: Hopefully this time around any measures taken to reduce the surplus will be temporary :cool:

Wiggy - not sure how I dressed up the announcement, you seem to have got the same gist as me in fewer words :D

Anyhoo I think we can all agree that it's a difficult time to be working for BA :bored:

[Tandemrotor]

rather alarming.
Oh dear, we wouldn't want that, would we?

compulsory redundancy is to be avoided as far as possible.
Oh yes, just as long as WE pay for it's avoidance!

Hopefully this time around any measures taken to reduce the surplus will be temporary
Once the company start recruiting, it would be difficult for even this bunch of Shiesters to claim we still had to keep on paying!!

no-one is being made redundant at BA
That's up to us. Nobody else!

[Day_Dreamer]

Why not get rid of another 100 or so middle managers.
BA are top heavy with managers.

If it has to be pilots then forget seniority and retire the over 55's who have their final salary pensions. (If BA can afford to pay the pensions)
The future of BA lies in the younger more dynamic pilots, but BALPA will never agree my course of action.

Terminal 5 "Ryanair - Globespan - Jet2" Long haul.

Unless BA can change significantly, in its working / union practices it may well go the way of Swissair and Sabena.
In the current climate (Economic) I cannot see the government affording to bail them out like Alitalia.
After all most of the family assets have been sold or are in hock.
Selling Heathrow slots may be their only way to survive.

[captjns]

Same airline... different paint job.

[Sir Donald]

''The future of BA lies in the younger more dynamic pilots,'' yea for definite especially if they use Flexi Crew.

''Unless BA can change significantly, in its working / union practices it may well go the way of Swissair and Sabena.''

Get some facts then compare apples with apples please. Like most things on the continent work rhetoric comes second.

''Terminal 5 "Ryanair - Globespan - Jet2" Long haul. ''An incomprehensible reply or incompetent retort?

What BA needs is someone that isn't trying to exploit the so called crises for a fatter bonus and diluting the product in the process. Unfortunately a lot of people buy into the garbage that spews out of waterworld. Thats why the share rising was done at a premium rather than at a discount, because the airline has no future.

[Day_Dreamer]

Like in Banking the bonus culture will get you every time.

Get paid for what you do at a rate commensurate with your experience in the field.
But lets not get to the level of footballers.

BA is still concentrating upon its High Rollers, who may come back when business improves, however the bread and butter is in the VFR/Tourist markets.
Improving the service received there, with an small increase in fares would put the numbers up and get cost covered.

An overall appraisal of the renumeration and working practices for all employees, would save money, through closing the bid line system, and balancing the flight allowance system. (Probably over BALPA and BASSA's dead bodies)

In an ideal world listening to the employee's who know what the traveling public want, with a sharp reduction in middle managers would solve the problem.
However BA is so entrenched in practices agreed years ago and in todays world un-representative that even the simplest of tasks take a very long time to be implemented.

BA has lost the plot !! why should 100 pilots be made the scapegoat for managerial bad decisions.
This Legacy carrier is living in the past, to survive they just need to make more efficient use of the resources that they have, and revise working practices.
We may yet see BA go they way of the Dodo, and maybe phoenix like arise as "British"

(Tongue in cheek)

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

So its facts you want, Sir Donald?

How about these (http://www.latimes.com/business/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-as-asia-budget-carriers,0,500575.story), these (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=asu4t0LRNDDI) and these (http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=75786)?

Day Dreamer is spot on. Of particular note is the fact that the imminent BASSA strike (http://www.bassa.co.uk/BASSA/webpages/front.asp) will cost the company £25 million per day! No wonder our Willie went for the rights issue.

Of particular interest should be the comment from SQ.....
British Airways has announced it won't configure any new planes to offer first-class cabins. Qantas has also scrapped first-class service on several long-haul routes and is considering reducing the 72 business seats in its Airbus A380 superjumbo jets.

But Singapore Airlines, one of Asia's top carriers, remains confident of a recovery in the premium market. It has cut fares and capacity this year but said it would not crop the 60 business seats in its A380 planes.

"It's a cyclical business and positive growth will return. We are not going to fundamentally change our business focus overnight just because of the downturn," said spokesman Nicholas Ionides.

So either SQ are right and WW has sold the farm just before the bumper crop starts to rise, or BA are right and SQ are screwed. Which do we think the more likely?

Discuss.

[wiggy]

You say:

"An overall appraisal of the renumeration and working practices for all employees, would save money, through closing the bid line system,"

Q: How would "closing" bid line (sic) save money?

and then state.." and balancing the flight allowance system. (Probably over BALPA and BASSA's dead bodies)"

The pilots' allowance system is already a completely different system ( calculated with respect to time away from base) to the one used by the cabin crew ( Destination specific), so please explain what you mean by "balancing" and why do you feel both BALPA and BASSA would object to your "balancing".

[Metro man]

So either SQ are right and WW has sold the farm just before the bumper crop starts to rise, or BA are right and SQ are screwed. Which do we think the more likely?

There will still be people prepared to pay for first class. If BA drop it and SQ keep it, looks like they will be travelling on SQ then. There probably won't be enough premium passengers to go around, SQ have decided to go after the few left with their top class product and it looks like BA will concentrate on those a bit lower down the tree. Sensible decision on both sides prehaps ?

[qwertyuiop]

metro man.

In my opnion you could not be more wrong. BA can not move into the low cost/ economy sector. Their cost base is simply too high. If they loose the First class/ Business pax they will fail.

[TheKabaka]

First has never made money for BA but has other uses. It will not be completely removed from the airline, but at the moment having large areas of space given over to First makes no sense.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Perhaps at the moment it doesn't, but the problem with BA first is that the product stinks. Thin, nasty seats, ancient in-flight entertainment, tiny screens. If BA were serious about retaining their spot at the top of the tree, they should invest some serious thought into improving First Class. Look to Etihad, Emirates of Singapore for clues. As it is, BA first is last...by a LONG way.

People already have too many reasons to go to Paris, Frankfurt and Madrid to commence their longhaul flights. Surely tempting them back into the pointy end should be the name of the game?

Refer qwertyuiop for consequences of failure.

Leo.

[Human Factor]

As it is, BA first is last...by a LONG way.

The trouble BA has is that it tends to be among the first in the industry to introduce a particular product, which means it's around longer than the competition. For example, flat-beds in business class. As a result, the competition eventually catches up and there is a longer time between product relaunches for BA.

[TheKabaka]

Just to finish off the thread creap a new BA first product is been rolled out as we speak (not that the old one is anything like Leo claims). HF + TT comments are spot on

[Walnut]

LHC and Day Dreamer will not be happy until we are all in the same cess pit as them.

I believe all airlines will be in the same cess pit unless they cut costs and offer inovation in their product. Willie Walsh has been saying for some time that he is not confident that premium traffic will return to former levels. This is born out by the current historic data, and other travel trade indicators, People will still travel but only on their cost terms, not the airlines, however that does not mean that costs are cut to such a level that travel becomes uncomfortable or inconvienient, eg Ryanair.

[AF jockey]

I believe BA is playing a dangerous game at letting 178 pilots go(more ?). I think it's offbeat now as the economy seems to be picking up again. Summer 2010 should be nice again and 2011 will be hot. Considering the length of training cycles for pilots, future growth needs to be tackled today.

Air France is walking around that pitfall by taking advantage of the legal possibility left of making employees "partially redundant" which implies you're only part-time. This allows the airline to reduce costs while keeping its pilots in the nest and up and ready for the restart. Nothing would be worse than having to go through unsustainable training again when things kick-in again as not being able to cope with a rising program makes you miss the train and keeps you stuck in the mud while the troop is rushing in tailwind growth.

If I were BA management, I wouldn't...But, hey, they surely know better after all.

[Fundi-Ya-Ndege]

178 heads is ( while very sad ) a very very small percentage of a roughly 4000 strong work force.
Virgin have just lost 21 ( started with over 50 but reduced with voluntary measures ) with another 100+ possibly on the way with a total head count of just under 800!
Looks like the industry is going to continue to be a difficult place for those looking for work....

[Human Factor]

178 heads is ( while very sad ) a very very small percentage of a roughly 4000 strong work force.

It's actually about 3200 so around 5.5%. Fairly significant if you're one of them.:eek:

[Tandemrotor]

Where did the figure 178 come from?

Does it include the 78 voluntary redundancies, associated directly with productivity improvements, and not a reduction in flying volume??

[Fundi-Ya-Ndege]

HF.

Was merely comparing the two percentages-

VS Starting with 155 of 795 =19.5% (Hope it works out a lot less)
BA Starting with 178 of 3200=5.5% (Also hope it works out a lot less)

and as I said very very sad if you are one of them...:ok:

[robberdog]

Wrong numbers there Fundi

Way out in fact.