Eastern J32 Inpounded at ABZ ?

[abzinsider]

Was told by an engineer at ABZ tonight that BAA were about to inpound a J32?

Is this true ?

[expedite_climb]

I hope not, surely not another airline that has expanded too quickly ?

[Daifly]

C'mon, when are you lot going to learn - a rumour from a one-poster who has obviously been here before (the way it's written) isn't going to really command much belief is it?

[tilii]

And it would certainly be interesting to watch the BAA 'pound in' a Jetstream. INpound indeed. Harumph!

[Raw Data]

And of course the BAA wander about the airfield all day, telling engineers that they are about to impound an aircraft... yeah, right!

If Eastern were in trouble, not much chance they would leave the aircraft on the ground at ABZ if there was any possibility of it being impounded!!

I guess abzinsider has a grudge against Eastern...

[tailscrape]

Come on guys,

Let's get real. There was a thread flying round here a day or two ago intimating that Eastern are in trouble.

Lets hope they're not and that this is just another scurrulous rumour. If Eastern have problems, then lets hope they sort them quickly. If they don't have problems let's try and stop the harmful (rumour mongering) stories quickly. It does none of us any favours whatever.

I sincerely hope this story has no foundation.

[Bluelabel]

Raw Data has it about right.

There's no such animal as "nearly impounded"!

It either is or it isn't, but no courts sit over Easter Bank Holiday, so it isn't!

If Eastern was really in trouble, they would "impound" the company.

They havn't, so it isn't!

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Bluelabel

(Sorry abzinsider.....I see that it was rumoured to be "inpounded"...that must be something different to the usual legal process!

[This message has been edited by Bluelabel (edited 13 April 2001).]

[Raw Data]

And if it IS impounded, the first anyone is likely to know about it is when they park trucks in front and behind, and slap a writ on the door!

[Mister Geezer]

Not another post about Eastern? :)

If this story is the case then I am afraid to say that I would not really be surprised. There was a Eastern related thread a few days ago and I recall someone posting a comment from a EZE Captain who said that he would be surprised if EZE make it to the end of this Summer. Not very encouraging if their own Flight Crew say that!

My general impression is that they seem to be an Airline which is struggling. I have heard some worrying stories about their practices in the Flight Deck and their general standards of operating. I could be wrong and I would be pleased to be corrected if I am wrong because seeing any airline in financial trouble is not a pleasant sight. I also heard that EZE staff were seen at ABZ approaching passengers who had arrived from HUY on a rival's flight. EZE staff were apparently seen approaching these passengers in a bid to woo them across to Eastern before their next flight. I can only describe this as 'Distress Marketing' and emphasis on the first word.

It is always sad to hear about aircraft getting impounded (speculation or truth) and when Jobs are on the line, then it is no laughing matter. For the sake of those in Eastern I hope that the situation is better than I fear it is!

MG

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Don't land in a field or the sheep will eat the aircraft.

[Raw Data]

Mister Geezer

Everything that you have "heard" has been on PPRuNe in the last week or so. You have no idea how true any of it is, and yet you wade in with all this speculation, whilst qualifying it with the standard "I hope its not true" line. Your "general impression" is based on gossip that you have no verification of.

Now it is quite possible that NONE of it is true, and in that case all that is happening here is that a possibly-struggling airline is having its name dragged through the mud for no reason whatsoever. Bear in mind that significant number of SLF/jounos hang here as well. Such publicity can do SEVERE damage to an airline, even if they are guilty of no wrongdoing whatsoever and are financially sound.

I only hope that your employer never has this happen to them, as the bottom line is that you, by your careless repetition of gossip and rumour, are quite possibly putting at risk the jobs of your colleagues in Eastern.

How about being a little more responsible, and only repeating what you KNOW to be true???

That goes for everyone, by the way.

[THINALBERT]

Hey R D, Lighten up a bit. This is a RUMOUR network, not an "I know its true network".

If someone hears a rumour, they are entitled to post. If Danny doesn't like it, then he or his moderators edit or cut postings as they see fit.

By all means express your opinions but please dont try to tell the rest of us what opinions we may have or post!

[Glesk]

Raw data seems to thrive on FACTS so allow me to shed some light on this subject with some FACTS.

FACT 1 - To anyone who spends as much time in the locale of stands 11,12,13 at ABZ as I do, Eastern look to be doing very well.

FACT 2 - The nonsense about any aircraft being 'inpounded' is exactly just that.

FACT 3 - There apears to be some petty fueds between Eastern and some other operators going on at ABZ, I think most of the tosh above stems from that.

FACT 4 - An Eastern Airways member of staff has been reported to the airport authority by a passenger for allegedly approaching them in the terminal building. Several other complaints have been made an an investigation is currently underway.

There, that was pretty easy, enough facts there for you RD ???
While you are right in your condemnation of the endless rumour mill which as I know only too well can seriously undermine an operation (in this case a healthy one) one hopes that if any complaints are upheld against Eastern or their staff member, then they are dealt with swiftly and with the full force of the law (!)
When was the last time you went into for arguements sake, Tescos and were approached by someone from, say ASDA and were told at the checkout that their selection was poor and you will get it cheaper down the road ????
That's right, its never happened, reason ? Its illegal !!!


[This message has been edited by Glesk (edited 14 April 2001).]

[Mister Geezer]

Raw Data thanks for your reply to my post.

I fully understand your feelings and comments. I may of seemed to be rather vague and inexact, however I feel that in any situation like this one it would be very foolish for anyone to stand up and firmly say what he or she thinks about this topic. To firmly say something on this thread can cause harm however I was treading with caution, hence the lines of 'I heard' and 'please correct me if I am wrong' were used.

The majority of what I have heard and know about Eastern is not from PPRuNe and will not be posted on PPRuNe. I continue to play my cards close to my chest on this topic and I won't say anymore!

Regards

MG

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Don't land in a field or the sheep will eat the aircraft.

[Raw Data]

MG - OK, fair enough then, I shall retire to the middle distance!

Forgive me for being a little testy, but I have seen good operations fail as a result of lost confidence due to rumour (usually of the "having to pay cash for fuel" type of rumour).

Not to mention not-so-good ones (remember Ratners??)

[Mister Geezer]

Raw Data

I am glad we still see eye to eye with each other! :)

Regards

MG

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Don't land in a field or the sheep will eat the aircraft.

[5711N0205W]

Glesk

I agree your post with the exception of your Fact 4, if as you say you spend as much time around those stands at ABZ and believe that nonsense I would suggest you investigate a bit further and you will find that there is no credence whatsoever there.

Someone is obviously having a go at Eastern but who and why are not known or not really cared about either. Any 'feud' does not originate from Eastern, ask yourself who would it benefit to see Eastern damaged ?

Load factors are a matter of public record to those within the industry, if you are that interested you should check Eastern's and you will see that there is no cause for concern there.

Low staff morale, any organisation will have its share of moaners but on the whole Eastern does not have a morale problem, there are always plenty of crews waiting to join as others move on to BA, EZY, BMI, Airtours or whoever, this is the natural flux of the industry at present.

Eastern are one of the very few British independants remaining and along with Gill (who also have their enemies) and Scot Airways should be applauded and encouraged. It is a peculiarly British character trait to show envy and attack a person/company that is doing well.

Oh and before any viputerative comments are forthcoming I do not work for Eastern! I have industry connections but my only active involvement with any airline is as SLF (frequently) but I do hate to see unjust and unnecessary rubbish written, especially against a British company therefore it is my right to reply as much as it is any one elses to flame.

**edited to change wrong airline designator above**


[This message has been edited by 5711N0205W (edited 15 April 2001).]

[Glesk]

5711, Reading your previous posts I find it extremely hard to believe that you are not an employee of Eastern, but that FACT is bye the bye. For someone with no connection, you seem to be far better informed than the majority of their crews and staff!!!!
I will very much look forward to your apology when you discover FACT 4 in my last post is proven to be a FACT (I am sure your 'industry contacts' will keep you abrest of this very soon)regardless if the allegations are true.
Yes, airlines should be applauded for standing up for themselves and no one likes to see anyone struggle, but does that mean telling passengers on a another carrier that they are travelling with an airline that is not safe ???
Dirty tricks may or may not be going on here, maybe your 'industry contacts' dont tell you all the FACTS.
Stick to FACTS 5711, oh, and make sure that those contacts of yours continue to keep you well informed (with FACTS), we wait with baited breath !!!
Seems like you have had one champaigne breakfast too many old chap!!!

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Oh and my only connection with Eastern is that I park my rather larger taxi next to theirs - FACT

[kippa]

RAW DATA....No I don't remember Ratners. What did they fly???

[Raw Data]

Kippa-

Hard to believe that you are not winding me up, but what the heck... besides, some non-Brits might not know about this.

Ratners was a large, multi-million pound jewellery chain, selling pretty cheap jewellery. Gerald Ratner, who essentially owned the company, got up at an AGM and mentioned during his address in a flippant manner that his jewellery was "crap". This got reported (as in front page in six inch letters in the tabloids), and within a year the large Ratners empire was no more- soley because of a few (admittedly stupid) lose words.

A good example of what damage thoughtless words can cause.

[kippa]

Don' take the bait look at the smilie!!

[This message has been edited by kippa (edited 15 April 2001).]

[Raw Data]

Yeah, yeah, I know, but I thought it might be an interesting story for the non-Brits!

[Borg32]

1st Point - RATNERS
Gerald Ratner told this story of "selling over-priced crap" for over two years at various business seminars - this "fact" was used to illustrate good marketing over good product - why do we pay £100($150) for a pair of Calvin Klyne jeans? Tesco sell jeans for a tenner ($7) a pair - ergo CK have GOOD MARKETING.

2nd point - EASTERN

I suggest a good read of FT (Financial Times)or, telephone Companies House and do a "Search" on your "Target Company" (cost £15) - this information is open to anyone. You could also do a "Credit Search" (cost £15 from various credit companies) as a prospective "supplier of goods" this is legal and within your rights.

BAD CREDIT = uh-oh they need a paddle
GOOD CREDIT = it was all B*****KS

If you cannot read the information (which can be quite cryptic) ask your accountant to give it the once-over

32

[Borg32]

***Missed one VITAL(legal)POINT****

When requesting information from a credit company - you are a prospective "Supplier of goods or SERVICES" - "services" being the keyword for a potential (employee) pilot of said company.

32

[Borg32]

AND...RAW DATA

The true facts surrounding the collaspe of RATNERS was more to do with it's borrowings to turnover(leverage) being nearly 5:1 as to the business norm of 2:1. Ultimately, global economic down-turn and over-stretching the company on new (leased)premises and diversing into areas unfamiliar to the management at that time, killed off RATNERS (and several airlines worldwide).

BAD WORDS do not kill companies.

BAD MANAGEMENT KILL COMPANIES.
32

[Raw Data]

Borg32-

Yeah, yeah, whatever. Some interesting documentaries at the time, and Mr Ratner himself, all attributed the collapse of his empire to the loss of consumer confidence (according to the video of him saying so that I just checked). If you know better than he does, I bow to your superior knowledge. The idea was simply to make a point without getting too anal about the details.

Also, your last point is a bit of an oxymoron, as one usually leads to the other.

[Borg32]

RAW DATA...

RATNERS - would you honestly like to go on record as saying "I'm a bit of a plonker, I knew I was stretching that overdraft at the bank" or, how about "it was'nt MY fault, the papers did it to me"

Oxymoron - Can you state one case of a company going belly up due to scare mongering alone? I think not.
Rumours usually have some substance behind them (Sacked employee dishes the dirt, shares being unloaded at an unusual rate) if not, they are quickly ignored or never taken seriously in the first place. Companies, individuals and fund managers usually rely on "the bottom line" and stewardship of a company (The Management team) to assertain their solvency. Do you use a different formula to come to a decision on a company? Please let me know what it is. Crystal balls? Tea leaves? What the bloke in the pub told you?

I say again. One does not lead to the other.

P.S.
Got any good share tips?

Regards
32

[Raw Data]

Borg32- it isn't the scaremongering per se, it is the resultant erosion of confidence amongst suppliers that does the trick. It may simply push the airline over the edge, but if that is the case, my point stands. I know of at least one airline, that I used to work for, that died when a fuel company "heard" that we couldn't pay our bills and cut off the fuel supply. The rumour was wrong, but because the local fuel company manager believed it and acted accordingly, we were deader than a dodo in two days flat. There are several other points surrounding this that I don't care to share in public.

You are entitled to your opinion, I'll stick to mine thanks!!

[Borg32]

RAW DATA...

Thank you for your reply, after reading your post, I can understand why you think this way.

I will close with this last piece,

2 DAYS AND BUST -

If your employer "went the way of the dodo"
after only 2 days, this should surely tell you they were severley over-strectched i.e - no money left in the pot. Any bank (and I do mean any bank) would up the O.D. for a company suffering "a short-term cash-flow" problem. I refer to a very recent case; A chemical company involved in animal testing, had £20 million overdraft with a certain hight street bank, lots of press coverage (banks dont like press coverage)loan was passed to U.S bank "on the nod" from first UK bank (U.S bank refuses to disclose its name!!) Banks like companies (any company, even those involved with disgusting acts of cruelty) if they are profitable.

Believe me, if your outfit was solvent and profitable, your bank would back you to the hilt, its how they make money.

On this point I refer to my other post, there must have been some truth to the rumour.

RAW DATA....its been nice chatting with you, but I feel we will have to agree to disagree.

Best Wishes

32

[Raw Data]

Just a quick further explanation Borg32.

Once the fuel company stopped delivering, we looked at refuelling away from base, but of course aviation is a small world, and the word was out. Before too long (about two hours), caterers, ground handling and the airport all wanted monies owed them (none of which was overdue BTW). The next thing that happened was that travel agents stopped booking and our forward reservations dried up. Many pax re-booked with other airlines after a news item on the local radio station... and on it went. The point was that it didn't take long for it to become clear that only a miracle would save the company- banks might have had confidence in us, but too much damage had been done for them to be happy about just doling money out to us.

Most small airlines lead a fairly hand-to-mouth existence. They may be getting good load factors and be in profit, but it takes very, very little in this industry to upset the apple cart- consumer confidence is everything. Many airlines, large and small, have found this out to their cost- and many of them might have been able to trade out of any difficulties in a less unforgiving industry. That is why smaller airlines often fail after a serious accident.

Anyway, I agree, nice chatting aboutt his stuff!