Turn Etiquette

[Ryan5252]

Folks, just started flying after spending most of life with eyes skyward. All is going well and my instructor is please with our progress to date. Firstly, I feel its important to note I have only logged 5 hours so am at the very bottom of a very enviable ladder.
In recent lessons we have focused on turns. We have reviewed Straight & level, in climb and decending turns. We have also covered off slow turns, turns in a clean config and turns with flaps. We have also covered stall recovery mid turn; so suffice to say we have done a few turns!!
Technique which I am taught is to roll the wings, wait for for about 20o pitch, apply slight back pressure to maintain altititude and continue roll to 30o - apply rudder as necessary. I am told to roll out onto course about 10o before reaching assigned heading. I can enter the turn at a given altitude (say 3000) and leave the turn on assigned heading and am flying at 3000. However, throughout the course of the turn I find I am at any point +/- 200 feet from assigned altitude - but always correct before 'rolling out' and always make it out on correct heading. I get the feeling I am making life difficult for myself as I seem capable to judge the distance and the time I have left i.e. if im at 2800' passing 050 for 090 I know I have 40 degrees or about 25-30 seconds to get back level. I always seem to judge this ok. I seem to be very dependent on attitude indicator to check my level of bank and VSI to check if im level - I believe this is bad habit picked up from years of Flight Sim! :ugh:
Basically, what im wondering is if everyone here can judge their angle of bank and maintain altitude simply by the attitude of the nose relative to the horizon?
Any tips would be great as I feel my next lesson my instructor my just cut his losses, open the door and kick me out!!

[Tinstaafl]

MS Flight Sim is a curse! I'd be surprised if you aren't focusing on the instruments and chasing the performance instruments if MSFS has seen a lot of use. I'd say you need to break the instrument focus habit, to be replaced with external reference points. You could ask your instructor to cover the instrument panel *and* re-emphasize the external reference points appropriate to your aircraft. The idea is that you align the bits you can see out of the windscreen with the natural horizon. Do the exercise when it's smooth and with good visibility to the Hz - even if it means an early morning start.

At various points in the turn your instructor can expose the panel for you to check the performance then cover it again. Make any attitude adjustment using the outside reference points, not while looking at the panel (you can't refer to the panel if it's covered!).

Don't do a single 180 or 360 turn. Do two or three before rolling level again. The goal is to focus on the external cues with just an occasional check of the instruments and then *small* attitude adjustments using those outside cues. With some practice you'll be able to do enter, maintain & exit accurate turns with minimal reference to the panel.

[Contacttower]

I seem to be very dependent on attitude indicator to check my level of bank and VSI to check if im level - I believe this is bad habit picked up from years of Flight Sim!

MSFS is probably the problem as you say, I know from my own experience that while it is good for practicing instrument stuff it's not great for practicing visual flying. Similar to what Tinstaafl mentioned what my instructor simply did was perform two turns, one in each direction and got me to memorise the visual picture of the aircraft's attitude relative to the horizon. Hold that picture visually and you won't significantly climb or descend.

[Jofm5]

Ryan,

I am probably not in a position to give advice as I have a little less than 5hrs logged but I can appreciate where your coming from (although I avoided flight sim prior to starting but have bought it to install when I get to instrument practice as its cheaper than flying).

The way I am being trained is to keep looking out and have the instructor tell me when I get to 20degrees or 30 degrees depending on types of turns we are doing. I then get asked to hold it then by mentally marking the points of where the horizon cuts across the front window and get used to that (Not easy on a hazy day). It was explained to me to use the real horizon in the windshield as you would the artificial horizon and correct based upon that.

After getting it sort of right my instructor then asks me to look around outside scanning for traffic and return back to looking out the front window and correct if required - I am told judging the bank angle visually is something that comes with time as is adjusting the throttle by engine sound and not watching the RPM.

Cheers

[Ryan5252]

Thanks for the replies - both seem helpful and will make a point of engraving them to mental kneeboard for the next lesson!! Next flight is scheduled for 8.30 so it cant get much earlier than that hopefully the weather will reward my early rise! A contributing factor which I forgot to mention previously, actually two, is that I had previously flown on a C150 but we now use the club's C152 which is back from maintenance. I know my hours are few, but it would appear I had become accustomed to the 150 in some small way. The changes are not massive but a slight change to horsepower does result in surprising changes to visual attitude i.e. nose tendency etc. Something I hope practice will cure. The other factor is that my instructor has started to get very upset each time I enter a roll I apply back pressure/pitch up immediately. I know they say anticipation is vital but this is extreme and I am concerned with this already. I think the reason this is happening is before I 'roll' I flip the downward wing up slightly to check for traffic - it is possible im pitching up just before entering the turn. Sorry for the long responses but im not flying with an ATPL or CPL for that matter in mind. I'm flying purely for the love of general aviation, club life, socialising and fly ins - those are my dreams and I want my flying to be an art long practiced and well perfected - which is why messing up turns at this early stage has really got to me!! :ugh:

Thanks again for the replies guys!

[AdamFrisch]

Back in the 90's when I took my PPL the instructor always hammered in that the altitude in a steep-ish turn is best controlled with good rudder work. Maybe you should give a bit more top rudder during the turn?

[Tinstaafl]

He's not doing steep turns. The goal is to keep it in balance throughout the manoeuvre and to use co-ordinated controls. Pitch attitude is the correct means to adjust altitude.

[hatzflyer]

Look out of the window!
Get your instructor to demo a perfect turn whilst you watch the horizon (the REAL one -not the instrument!)
Note the distance that is above the instrument coaming (from memory..a long time since I flew a 152.. I think its about 4 fingers to the left and slightly different to the right).
Once you get that off pat, you will find that you can roll into /out off a turn very quickly and accurately without chasing the instruments. This then frees up brain space and enables you to judge the roll out onto heading much more accurately.
At 5 hours ..don't worry..lots of people find it difficult..it will come with time and practice .All of a sudden it will fall into place and you will wonder what you were worried about!:ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Ask your instructor if you could put post-it notes over the instruments you shouldn't be looking at (pretty much everything but the ASI, altimeter and DI at this stage) thus giving you no choice but to keep looking out of the window.

The instruments, at this stage in your flying, are not your friend. It is very important to keep your head out of the cockpit as far as possible. For anybody who has done much PC based sim flying, this is very counter-intuitive.

Overall however, your level of trouble at the moment sounds pretty typical for a 5 hour student - it'll come, just relax and enjoy the learning process. The odds are that the thing your instructor is most worried about is over-analysing the flying rather than just getting on with it.

The differences between a C150 and C152 are significant enough to disrupt the learning process but, to be frank, probably not with the few hours you've got so far. I'd do your best to stick with the same type throughout your training - and the C152 is the easier aeroplane to fly, but again not over-analyse the differences from a couple of previous C150 hours.

G

[RTN11]

Which aircraft are you flying?

You say that your height varies during the turn, and then when you roll level it goes back to your original height. This could be due to mis-use of the rudder, so you are slipping in the turn. This would cause an error on the static pressure instruments if you only have one static port, say on a cessna 172.

As stated above, don't chase the instruments. Set and hold an attitude, then it should just be a glance in checking the ball is in the middle and the height is holding, then straight back out.

[Midland Transport]

I think you need to ensure the aircraft is in trim before you enter the turn. Too often when you are training there is a tendancy to ignore the trim and carry too much load on the yoke. This then means your movements on the yoke are too large and you will under or over compensate. You should hold the yoke with 2 fingers not your whole hand if that is too much load for 2 fingers you are probably not in trim.

[Pace]

Ryan5252

Apart from the good advice from other posters I would like to stress that this is a trimming problem which you should discuss with your instructor.

With low hours its perfectly normal to be all fingers and thumbs as in anything new whether its flying, skiing or whatever. Suddenely it all clicks and then it all becomes instinctive.

We are taught to climb and descend but what about trying that with your hands off the control column?

ie just use the trim wheel to control the aircraft in pitch.

Trim it to climb. As you approach your level trim it to hold that level.As the speed builds the aircraft will try to climb. Still using the trim wheel only keep trimming forward till for a given power setting and stabilised speed the aircraft holds level.

Now trim forward for a descent again as the aircraft accelerates the tendency will be for the aircraft to pitch up. Look at the VSI and try and maintain the VSI on say 500 fpm down playing with the trim to hold that.

Do this to practice getting used to using the trim wheel and understanding the effects its a good exercise.

Pace

[neilr]

Hi Ryan

Sounds like you are making good progress .... and the fact that you are recognising your mistakes is the first step to fixing them - I wish more of my students had the same outlook

Common mistake is to focus on instruments - the most accurate indication of flight attitude is outside the aircraft (any guesses what it might be)

Instruments lag pilot input - if I see a student focussing inside I will cover the instruments up - it always surprises them how much better they do when they have to look outside !!

Just to add a few comments on climbing and descending - airspeed is the worst culprite in terms of lag - student regularly chase the airspeed - remember Power + attitude = Performance - at a given power for example climb power - if you always set the same attitude - you will always (almost) get the same performance in terms of airspeed and ROC

Back to the turns .... as already suggested - get your instructor to demo a left and right 30 AOB turn - ask him to hold the turn until you have satisfied your self you are happy with the picture out front .... ie where the nose is relative to the horizon for each turn (note it will be different for right and left turn if side by side seating) -

If you put the nose in the same position (with given power setting) you will always complete a 30 AOB level turn - guaranteed !!!

It is also common to overcontrol in turn - in your case pitch - again just match the picture outside with the mental image - once in the turn make small adjustments - just a few cms is enough (depending on a/c) to maintain the turn - do occasionaly check instruments - to confirm height and when to turn out - but 95% out max 5% in

Rudder has been mentioned - with a little practice you will automatically apply the correct amount of rudder in a turn, or when changing power setting or speed - again this is just practice

Good luck ...... and in the unlikely event your instructor does kick you out - your welcome to come flying with me any time

Neil

[jousby]

I think flight sim is taking an unfair hammering here. I finished my ppl last nov and found it incredibly helpful. Admittedly im a total nerd and spent a decent amount of money to get it setup right. 3 screens, yoke, pedals, phote realistics scenery for south england.

Adressing the tendancy to focus on intrusments. You can hide the instruments in flight sim as well if you want, and there are alternate views from outside the plane to get a better picture of what your control surfaces are doing (something you can't do in a reall plane). As long as you're aware that you shouldn't be spending 80% of your time looking at the instruments then it can be a great tool.

- Can practice pre flight checks on a layout the same as your training plane.
- With photo real scenery you can fly all your navs before you get in a plane. This way you know what landmarks you are looking for.
- With vatsim you practice your radio calls against real humans practicing to be controllers.
- Can get exp with more complex types before you go near them.

[Pace]

G-Dunx

Pretty impressive set up you have there.

Flight sim is an excellent traing tool especially for IFR flight and on autopilot. Its biggest letdown is the flight modelling capability.

The standard aircraft that come with MSFS are awful but some of the third party addon aircraft are much better although still flawed. I have not used it for 4-5 years but did find it kept you up to speed especially with instrument work.

Pace

[Tinstaafl]

I speak about MSFS with a couple of thousand hours instructing experience. It is not getting an unfair hammering. In later stages it *can* be useful to practice tasks that have already been taught how to be done correctly. Used to self teach generally leads to poor or incorrect technique.

I've seen a set up similar to yours and it would be great for navigation training. Even a couple of 'fake' navexs before the first ones in the aircraft to practice the skills needed in the air. Bear in mind that 'pre-flying' a navex isn't always beneficial though. One of the skills that you're trying learn is to be able to navigate in an unfamiliar area. After all, your licence lets you fly just about anywhere in the world and doesn't have the restriction "Not for navigational use unless route pre-flown" on it!

Alternate views that the sim provide *may* help a little in understanding what is happening however there is a danger of negative transfer. If your understanding of what is happening depends on these alternate views you will be at a disadvantage in the real aircraft where such views aren't possible.

But, used as an aid with appropriate instruction, MSFS and similar can be useful aids to learning. No substitute for the real aircraft though - at least, not yet.



blody tipos

[Ryan5252]

Folks, thanks again for the replies and alot of useful information is being soaked up (I hope). MSFS has been carefully placed back into its box and will be stowed away until such times as I am ready for ratings beyond PPL. I reference to trim – I am confident that I can trim the aircraft very well and seem to have this down to instinct level. I was taught to hold my finger tips on the yolk whilst trimming and as such I can feel the pressure easing away. To confirm I go ‘hands free’ for a few seconds to ensure the aircraft is stable. I suppose its just more practice required in this regard. I am completely unfamiliar with judging distance, attitude etc from external visual points so make focus is required in this regard.
If all else fails – Neil; I look forward to flying with you in the not too distant future!! (“,) :ok:

Regards,
Ryan

[bjornhall]

There is one thing, besides instrument work, that MSFS does really well. It is absolutely outstanding as a procedure trainer. For pattern work, for example, with 50 patterns in the sim, for free, you will know the checklists and procedures in your sleep (get a third party aircraft identical to the one you're training on though). For real life pattern work, certainly not free :ooh:, you can then focus on the actual flying, without the distraction of trying to learn the procedures at the same time. Of course, this is best done after the first pattern lesson, not before...

Same thing with all other procedures, notably emergency checklists.

Saved me hours of pattern work during my training, and helps me stay sharp on procedures and checklists afterwards.

I find it helps to use the autopilot as much as possible in the sim, and keeping a mindset that you are not doing any kind of stick and rudder work. You are just moving the simulated airplane around so you can practice your procedures.

[DenhamPPL]

Another supporter of MSFS (FSX) here..

Had been "simming" for years until I passed my PPL skills test in 2006.

MSFS really helped me with basic IFR training, understanding radio/nav equipment and came into its own when practising cross country nav (with UK photographic scenery installed). I still "fly" it occasionally before setting out to a new airfield and use it to check visual reporting points, noise abatement areas, circuits etc before doing the "real" trip.

I also suffered initially from the temptation to look in rather than out and my instructor was quick to cover the instruments at such times. I quickly learnt to look outside instead..

Best of luck with your PPL - keep a good lookout!

PS: A yoke and rudder pedals are a must for MSFS if you wish to have any semblance of realism IMHO.

[mary meagher]

Ryan, I've quickly scanned through all those thoughtful replies to your posts.

Pleased to see that a lot of them recommend eyes OUTSIDE! And that a sim is not like the real thing. If only power pilots would follow this advice, and keep a good lookout with a proper scan, pay less attention to the gadgets.

It's probably not sensible to vary your approach at this stage with some gliding but if you do, the lookout is from lesson one emphasised. And we do a lot of turning. That's how you stay in a thermal. The artificial horizon is usually not part of the equipment in a training glider, we use the real thing. And our most reliable instrument is a piece of string taped on the outside of the canopy... can you guess what that is for?

I flew with an airline captain last week, he had 30,000 hours, and a cap 10, but was astonished to find that we were going up without an engine!!
Try it someday.

Mary