Saha Air 707 loses 2 on climb out

[Slats One]

Cannot see this anywhere here? Did we miss it? Or am I blind...

Aug 3 Iran. Saha Air Boeing 707 lost 2 donks with fire on T/O: Seems well handled- returned on remaining 2 and had a minor runway excursion.

If reports accurate, it was v well handled. They got the fires out. Odd how the national media ignore it - must be a non story for some reason- ah -no schools, old girls, or horrid celebrities involved....

[Wycombe]

I believe this is about the last civil pax-carrying 707 operating worldwide.

[Slats One]

Hmm - a bit of a snide shot across my bows there , and for your info, there is plenty of freely available information in Iran - it is called the web and played a major part in recent socio-political events there. Teheran was remarkably switched on when I last saw it, in February..

Its not all Mullahs and media profiling you know.

Back on the topic, indeed, we may have just seen the end of that last schduled B-707 service....

[Der absolute Hammer]

For those who like to read Thursday's papers on Friday and who like to keep a broad breast on world affairs, the story is in today's
Tehran Times.
It is in English for those of you who do not speak Farsi and, even without having to use a dictionary, it should provide the possibilities for endless discussion , possibly if traditionally, of a most useless nature.

tehran times : Passenger plane makes emergency landing in Ahvaz (http://www.tehrantimes.com/Index_view.asp?code=200167)

[captjns]

Bin the political bull ****. The good old 707 is a handful with an outboard motor gone, let alone two on the same side, especially at low speeds and high power settings. Bottom line the crew recognized a problem, dealt with it appropriately, and nobody went to the hospital.

Kudos to the crew for a successful outcome:ok:.

[Scimitar]

This was reported on the JACDEC website yesterday.

I'm impressed that they got it round the circuit with two out on one side. Not a happy situation. I never flew the 707 but the DC8 was a handful with two out.

[411A]

I'm impressed that they got it round the circuit with two out on one side.

It takes a really strong (pilots) leg and adequate airspeed (180 knots minimum, rudder boost ON) but it can be done, provided the weight is 'reasonable'.

Congrats to the crew.:ok:

[sleeper]

Everybody seems to think it was two out on one side. So far I can't find any evidence for that. If it was not , then it must have been much easier. At one time , in the jurassic 747, they failed two engines in the sim. Expecting the usual, both on one side, scenario, there was some rudderjuggling. However, surprise, it was one on each wing. At that point it was a twin, albeit an underpowered one, and quite easy to fly.

[sb_sfo]

While not authoritative, the Aviation Herald has it as #1 and #2 out.
Incident: Saha Airlines B707 at Ahvaz on Aug 3rd 2009, two engines on fire at liftoff (http://avherald.com/h?article=41daf401&opt=1)

[Scimitar]

JACDEC also has it as #1 and#2.

[Steamhead]

There was a similar incident a long time ago, a cargo 707 out of Switzerland when #3 and #4 fell off and the wing was on fire. Finished up landing at some
airfield in Southen France

[Corsair19]

Hi guys,
This happened on 31 march 1992, flight Luxembourg - Kano, registration 5N-MAS. Full report available on BEA site.

[FirstStep]

Apparently a good effort by the crew, as 2 out on the same side is a handful ( mucho muscles are involved during roll control with all operating ). I do believe Vmc 2 out( same side) is 170 KIAS, with (rudder) boost ON. Not that 10 KTS takes away from the crew(previous post), but just being anal.

[411A]

I do believe Vmc 2 out( same side) is 170 KIAS, with (rudder) boost ON. Not that 10 KTS takes away from the crew(previous post), but just being anal.

-320B advanced, 170 is correct, 180 on other models.
If rudder boost should fail however...235 knots.:eek:

[ZFT]

411A

320B advanced, 170 is correct, 180 on other models.
If rudder boost should fail however...235 knots.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

Now this is going back far too long but 166 knts is well and truly stuck in my grey cells. (gray to you of course)

[411A]

Now this is going back far too long but 166 knts is well and truly stuck in my grey cells. (gray to you of course)

I mostly flew the long body models -300/320/420 series, the only short body model I flew was the -138B (ex-Qantas).
With these long body models (at reasonable weights) the airplane would climb very slowly (2-engines out, same side) with flaps at 14/17 or 20.
Flaps 30?
Not a chance.
Downhill, until the flaps were retracted, part way.

707, one tough 'ole bird.:ok:

[aseanaero]

707, one tough 'ole bird

How many civilian 707s still flying ?

Ok , John Travolta has one and there's 69 707's of various types on the FAA register but don't know how many of them would still be airworthy

Anymore ?

[bufe01]

169 !
I remember this number because I always thought "why the hell is not 170!".
I know for a fact different operators had different, but very similar, figures.
Done it endlessly in the sim.
Tough scenario especially in August if the place was hot&hi.
Well done!

[411A]

A TWA manual for a 707 had very little applying to a PanAm 707...

So very true, and just one item...hydraulic system interconnect on the PanAmerican airplanes definitely did not apply to the Trans World airplanes, whilst airbourne....among many other differences.

The 707 was different for each original customer, and it showed, when some 'know it all' pilots perceived to actually 'know it all'.:ugh::ugh:...when they had no idea whatsoever.:}

[B-HKD]

A recently retired Captain once said:

We pilots have a saying when entering a Boeing... "where are the switches on this one...?

Leo :cool:

[oceancrosser]

The DC-8s were the same, ours were sourced from several different original customers and almost nothing could be found in the same places.
Worst of all were the ex-Air Canada things they tried to convert into a 2 crew cockpit (never flown that way to my knowledge) and scattered 2/3s of the FE panel around the pilots.

[Dave Gittins]

And I thought the "find how the radio works" game only applied to PA-28s :O

[captjns]

I never knew that TWA could reinvent the cockpit until actually flying a -231. Some good, and some bad.

Sure went through alot of landing lights though:E.

[Entaxei]

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac157/Entaxei/B7073ENGINE1500X1000SIZE686.jpgN712PA a JT3 engined 707 from Pan Am's initial 6 lost the No 4 engine over France on 25th February 1959 in a training incident, it landed at Heathrow and was repaired in the Pan Am hangar.

N712PA had been involved in a near 30,000 ft dive over the Atlantic three weeks earlier where it got close to Mach1...possible autopilot malfunction ..... No 3 dos'nt look to clever either!! ..... nobody checked the engine mounts?.

[atakacs]

Any idea of the history of the plane involved here (was it originally delivered to Iran in the 70's) ?

[cactusbusdrvr]

The Boeing fleets at my airline were all standardized - until the second jet showed up on the line.

[wileydog3]

Not a true 707 but rather the REAL 717.. when I went through Instructor school on the KC-135 we did 2 engine out (same side, in idle) approaches and go-arounds. Once we had demonstrated that we did 3 engines in idle and a single engine (sort of) pattern with an approach and go around. Gear when you were assured you had the field.. flaps 30. On the go, MAX thrust, lots of rudder and gear up with the slightest hint of positive rate. Milk the flaps back up SLOWLY and climb out. Not easy but did not require a superman.

Long time ago...

[Bigt]

Plane was originally delivered to the Iranian Government - model 707-3JPC

[PJ2]

oceancrosser;
Worst of all were the ex-Air Canada things they tried to convert into a 2 crew cockpit (never flown that way to my knowledge) and scattered 2/3s of the FE panel around the pilots.
You are correct. I had originally posted that it was Douglas that tried this but I recall now years ago seeing some Canadian Pacific Airlines DC8s and their cockpits were completely different - F/O seat on regular instead of long rails, a proper Engineer's panel with all the systems at the back. On the Trans-Canada (later Air Canada) DC8s, except for fuel and electrical, the systems were mostly on the front, center panels if I recall. Cockpit standardization has come a long way, enhancing flight safety in doing so.

[captjns]

Ooops.... CIRCUITB... should have specified the 727-231 series x-TWA birds.

[superspotter]

http://newimages.fotopic.net/?iid=yz692q&outx=800&quality=80

http://newimages.fotopic.net/?iid=yz692o&outx=800&quality=80

[lomapaseo]

Finally some facts about the incident:ok:

Thanks superspotter for the pics. I wish there were more but I couldn't navigate the forum that they came from :)

The #1 engine probably would have been only slightly damaged from FOD into the inlet. #2 looks like a possible overspeed when I brighten up the picture. I don't recall a similar looking failure since AAL Nov 1960 over Albany NY

[atakacs]

Meanwhile back at the 707 ...bit of a mess innit ! ... looks lucky the exploding bits of JT3 didn't bring out out of the sky. Could have been an Airtours at Manchester again but at 3,000 ft !!
indeed

what was the sequence of event here ? did they loose the second engine due to debris ingestion (quite possible given what we see on those pictures).

In any case hat tip to the crew...

[411A]

Could have been an Airtours at Manchester again but at 3,000 ft !!

Highly unlikely whilst airbourne....besides the specific type has four engines, no similarity whatsoever with the Manchester accident.

[rog747]

wow u flew 707-320/420/320b/c and 707-138b:ok:
did you ever fly them into the UK?

i flew on british eagle 707-138b as a child which (both a/c) went to laker
g-avzz and g-awdg
great little ships they were...
always at LGW for many years...
often i was at laker hangars and visited them

also flew on BEA airtours -436's many times too

my first BIG 707 flight was LGW-PMI on 707-349C of caledonian in 1969
g-awwd home on g-avka -399c flagship bonnie scotland
flt time of 1hr 20 mins !

when i joined BMA we had coal-burning -321's ex PAA (6)
then we got 3 -320C's and eventually fitted 212Y seats in them for charters.
interesting load sheets for LGW-LAX non-stop with 212Y on board in august...lol

incredible feat for this Iran 707 to safely get back on the ground after losing 2 on same side...174 pax on board so was not that light.

often our chaps at BMA were talking of the odds of losing 2 same-side out of LGW on 27 (26 now) and clearing the hills on a hot day.

[bugg smasher]

On a related note, the mil variant of the 707, a KC-135, impacted shortly after takeoff at Elmendorf, Anchorage, after ingesting several Canada geese and losing two on the same side, in the early nineties I recall.

Impressive stick job by the Iranian crew, Sullenberger kudos all 'round (he knows geese), not an easy event by anyone's standard.

[411A]

did you ever fly them into the UK?

Numerous times...-320B (advanced) mostly, occasionally the -138B.

[Dave Gittins]

If you lost a couple coming out of Gatwick 26, at laest (if you cleared the hills) at least you had Dunsfold to go to without much manoevering on two..

[captjns]

cactusbusdrvr

The Boeing fleets at my airline were all standardized - until the second jet showed up on the line

Yeah... I remember in 1990 the diffrences manual was thicker than the AOM too:E

[ORAC]

On a related note, the mil variant of the 707, a KC-135, impacted shortly after takeoff at Elmendorf, Anchorage, after ingesting several Canada geese and losing two on the same side, in the early nineties I recall.
No, it wasn't a KC-135, it was an E-3A, Yukla27 (http://www.elmendorf.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123070056), with 24 POB.

[411A]

Yeah... I remember in 1990 the diffrences manual was thicker than the AOM too

This was noticed in the seventies as well...and sometimes the differences section did not match the airplane it referred to...:}

I well remember one simulator session I had with a smarta** check pilot, when he mentioned that the cabin PA would work with all engines shutdown and all switches OFF, except the battery switch.
I told this turkey that only the later model airplanes might be wired this way, but it most definitely did not refer to some of the earlier models we had....so I bet him $100 that I was right...out to the ramp we went...and I promptly collected my $100.:E

[millerscourt]

411A Was that why you had to leave SIA by any chance?:D

[411A]

411A Was that why you had to leave SIA by any chance?

Thanks for your concern, millerscourt, however I didn't have to leave...I left to more than double the salary with no tax, elsewhere:ok:
The check pilot?
He was from Kenya, and proved his own undoing whilst trying to outwit a cab driver on Collier Quay at 2am one early morning over a S$4 fare....and ended up in hospital, quite battered for his trouble....no idea where he went after that.:}

[lomapaseo]

He was from Kenya, and proved his own undoing whilst trying to outwit a cab driver on Collier Quay at 2am one early morning over a S$4 fare....and ended up in hospital, quite battered for his trouble....no idea where he went after that.

I felt sorry for the poor chap (the check pilot) after you took him for a $100 and all his lunch money for a month:}

[bugg smasher]

No, it wasn't a KC-135, it was an E-3A, Yukla27 (http://www.elmendorf.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123070056), with 24 POB.

Thank you, ORAC, for the clarification. Pedantry notwithstanding, I believe the basic airframe and engine combination remain the same. I have some experience on the type in question, my initial judgment stands; they performed to a remarkable standard.

[411A]

I felt sorry for the poor chap (the check pilot) after you took him for a $100 and all his lunch money for a month



I certainly didn't feel 'sorry' for him, he proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was full of BS.
Quite frankly, I would have expected better from a check pilot.

Nearly every different model of the 'ole 707 was wired differently, according to the original customers specifications.
About the only thing they all had in common was the fitment of four engines...:}
Five if they had the required mod.:hmm:

[millerscourt]

They certainly were wired differently. In KAC in late 70's we had 5 brand new 320-C's that had certain switches the British way so as not to confuse those Trident and Comet Pilots! Then we received 2 ex Pan Am wired the usual Boeing way.

PS We had the 5 engine mod in order to deliver engines to Lufthansa at Frankfurt for servicing.

[matkat]

Strange thing this as the same thing happened in early may also from Ahwaz, I know this for sure I was there and saw it happen again it was an engine fire/explosion which also took out the other engine on the same side and also some bits of flap.