Pilotless Cessna takes flight

[flynerd]

Downunder...

After a hand-start, the plane took off without the pilot!:{

Cessna takes off without pilot - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/04/2645510.htm)

[Lightning6]

Blimey mate, you don't swing a prop without assistance!! At least it should have been chocked!! Even then you need someone to remove the chocks when you get back in the aircraft. :eek:
He's lucky he got out of the way before the aircraft moved forward!!!
Obviously left the parking brake off.

[stickandrudderman]

I have to say that I was rather distracted by the tagged news article about Miss Japan's short Kimono!:}

[Dan Winterland]

"The police said the aircraft is a write off"

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200908/r411368_1944378.jpg

It obviously took the Aussie equivalent of Sherlock Holmes to deduce that!

[Tmbstory]

Shades of the Auster that tried the same thing at Bankstown in the 1950's.


Tmb

[blue up]

A bit of speed tape 'll fix that!




Anyway, he wasn't the first and he won't be the last....


FAA training video clip
YouTube - Hand-Prop Accident FAA Training FIlm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeTM-paAXCo)

[Bigglesthefrog]

Mmm...It hasn't taken long for someone to nick the engine:cool:

[ExSp33db1rd]

Gave Aged Aunt a flight in a Chipmunk to another airfield, on departure used up the two remaining cartridges for starting. Primed, set brakes, put Aged Aunts' left hand on slightly cracked throttle with instructions to pull BACK if the engine started. Swung it myself.

Had visions of Aged Aunt getting airborne !

Got away with it. Aged Aunt never knew that that wasn't what flying was all about. Thoroughly enjoyed her flight from Croydon to the Isle of Wight and back - in 1957.

[hightower1986]

The hand proping video was hilarious until the tail wheel hit him on the noggin, was wondering when his shoes were going to wear out!:ooh:

[Captain Smithy]

Perhaps I'm too stupid to understand this, but I don't get this story at all.

The pilot couldn't start the engine, so he tried swinging the prop. In a Cessna with an electric starter? Big no-no for starters. :hmm:

Were the parking brakes not engaged? One of the first things you check surely. :hmm:

Then the aircraft "became airborne". For that to happen the throttle must've been wide open - the aircraft wouldn't get airborne with 1/4" open and <1200rpm, which seems the normal starting setting for most aircraft. :hmm:

Is this story a wind-up?

A somewhat bemused Smithy

[BackPacker]

Obligatory reference: VH-KBZ

vh-kbz - Google Images (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=vh-kbz&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=&aqi=)

In a Cessna with an electric starter? Big no-no for starters.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought electric starters all had a "Bendix" drive (or whatever it is called) which physically disengages the starter from the engine when the starter is not engaged. This would mean that hand-propping an engine with an electric starter does not have any impact on the starter whatsoever. There may be other considerations, but damage to the starter motor is not one of them.

[Captain Smithy]

I also believe the same BP. That's why if the starter warning light stays on after starting, you shut the engine down straight away because the starter ring is still engaged with the prop, never a sensible idea.

As that sketch in Chewin' The Fat used to go - "I smell ****e..." :)

Smithy

[SNS3Guppy]

Blimey mate, you don't swing a prop without assistance!!


Yes, you do. How do you suppose one does it when one is alone? There's nothing improper or dangerous about hand propping an airplane alone...if it's done correctly.

Were the parking brakes not engaged? One of the first things you check surely.

Proper procedure is to tie the tail (never a wing) and chock it, and before propping one always attempts to move the airplane to ensure it's going to stay put.

The pilot couldn't start the engine, so he tried swinging the prop. In a Cessna with an electric starter? Big no-no for starters.


Handpropping an airplane equipped with an electric starter is not a big "no no," by any stretch of the imagination. It's done safely all the time.

Is this story a wind-up?



Why should it be. This most certainly isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened.

What's shocking is that instructors aren't teaching students the proper technique to hand prop an airplane, given that it's basic propeller safety.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought electric starters all had a "Bendix" drive (or whatever it is called) which physically disengages the starter from the engine when the starter is not engaged. This would mean that hand-propping an engine with an electric starter does not have any impact on the starter whatsoever.

You are correct. However, it's not uncommon, especially with a dead battery, a weak bendix, or a damaged gear, to have the bendix stuck and engaged with the ring gear. Usually ensuring that it's disengaged is the first step in preparing to handprop, after making sure the airplane is secure and controls are set.

As far as a starter-engaged light....most light airplanes with which I'm familiar don't have them. One need only listen, and check the ammeter or voltmeter, to have an indication it's still engaged, however.

[Lister Noble]

I fly an L4 Cub,A-65 engine.
No parking brake,in fact brakes used soley for taxiing, if at all.
Normally on my own and often no one else at the strip.
No electric starter,the only way to get airborne is hand start,known as the Armstrong Starter;);)
Chocks,tie stick back with harness,switches off, throttle shut (for me,others open a crack) Prime 2 pumps,pull through 6 blades,switch on 1,then swing.
Starts first time,every time.
Move round to put switch onto both and open throttle a crack,and jump in for run ups.
When all completed,throttle on tick over,jump out and remove chocks,get in and away we go.
We are on grass and we have several hand starters but no one ties down.
Been OK so far.
Lister:)

[worrab]

Of course, it's not without danger even if there are two of you:

YouTube - Plane Accident (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1e_eI9u8dM&feature=related)

[foxmoth]

Shades of the Auster that tried the same thing at Bankstown in the 1950's

And the dH82a at Goodwood earlier this year!

[foxmoth]

I fly an L4 Cub,A-65 engine

I know a number of pilots who start the cub from behind the engine, giving easier access to the cockpit in the event of cocking it up!

[wsmempson]

I thought it was a Stampe at Goodwood this year....

[hatzflyer]

If you try to start a lycoming with a flat battery the bendix will engage. When you swing it you have to drag the starter as well because you can't swing quick enough to disengage the starter untill the engine fires.

If you know what you are doing ,its perfectly safe.

Believe it or not, there ARE actually lots of planes flying without ANY electrics. I have two , they are called FUN.:ooh:

[DX Wombat]

Were the parking brakes not engaged?In a Cessna? :D :D :D The parking brake is mainly for decorative purposes - well perhaps not quite that but it doesn't have a reputation for being very effective so tends to remain unused.

[Lister Noble]

I had a look at starting from behind,although did not try it as I was not too happy with clearance behind etc.,might have another look later today.
Lister:)

[Scott Diamond]

Wonder if it declared a mayday to ATC :E

[Whip99]

As you can see from the pic, Coober Pedy is in the middle of the desert, where it gets quite windy. Certainly doesn't help if you aren't on top of things when something goes wrong.

[RatherBeFlying]

Usually the a/c goes walkabout on the apron and chews up a few of its fellows before coming to a halt. It's nice to have a glider towhook, but a tail tiedown can save a lot of grief. Once the engine is started and settled down at 800 rpm, you can untie.

And yes, C-172s handprop just fine.

[bjornhall]

And yes, C-172s handprop just fine.

Does that include the IO-360 powered variants?

[RatherBeFlying]

Does that include the IO-360 powered variants?Don't know -- all the handpropping I've seen have been carburated engines. RTFM I guess:p

[blue up]

No starter or handbrake. The rope is wraped round the struts and is tied so that if the aircraft rolls forwards it will tighten the rope and thus stop it from going any further. For the testing phase (ie the day of the video) it was also bolted to the concrete driveway through the skid!
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xqw8ZcI0eEw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xqw8ZcI0eEw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Captain Smithy]

Some interesting material to read through here. Thanks all.

Still don't know though why you would want to swing something with an electric starter... if it doesn't start then something is wrong, why not just get the problem fixed instead? Rhetorical question of course.

Smithy

[Tinstaafl]

Why? Flat battery, failed bendix, failed starter motor, stripped ring gear, maintenance not available, key start switch broke, in the outback miles from anywhere or anyone, SARwatch going to timeout & no R/T or phone available on the ground, cheaper maintenance elsewhere, overnight fees excessive, on the way to somewhere else, on a promise from the other half for when you get home...**

Handswinging a prop isn't an issue if you do it correctly. Even a stuck bendix can be dealt with if necessary.




** Especially that last one.

[The Heff]

But what actually is the proper method for hand-swinging a prop?

So far its been covered that the basic safety tips are apply parking break, wheel chocks and tie the aircraft down; but no mention has been made about how to safely turn the live propeller without having one's hands sliced off.

[SNS3Guppy]

Does that include the IO-360 powered variants?

No difference at all. Yes, easily handpropped.

But what actually is the proper method for hand-swinging a prop?

So far its been covered that the basic safety tips are apply parking break, wheel chocks and tie the aircraft down; but no mention has been made about how to safely turn the live propeller without having one's hands sliced off.


Perhaps that's because if you do it wrong, you're going to hurt yourself. Propping an airplane is something that you need to be shown; not something you should read about and go try yourself. I can tell you about raising one legand throwing it behind you to draw you out of the way, not curling your fingers or grasping the prop, keeping your upper body straight, stepping back as you prop, and all the other things necessary, but it would be unprofessional and improper to address that in any detail here...because you need someone to go through it in person.

Anything less would be a disservice. Get hands-on instruction, then go try it yourself. This isn't something about which you educate yourself over the internet.

[Piper19]

Somewhat same story happened to this C150 in Antwerp a few years ago
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Cessna-152/0204465/M/ (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Cessna-152/0204465/M/)
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Cessna-150M/0204227/M/ (http://www.pprune.org/photo/Cessna-150M/0204227/M/)

[BeechNut]

Some interesting material to read through here. Thanks all.

Still don't know though why you would want to swing something with an electric starter... if it doesn't start then something is wrong, why not just get the problem fixed instead? Rhetorical question of course.

Smithy

The "something wrong" can be something as innocuous as sitting too many weeks in a Canadian winter without flying due to foul weather. And when time comes to fly, the battery is flat.

So you hand swing it, and once it is running, go flying for an hour to top up the battery. It's much less trouble than opening the baggage door and bulkhead (where the battery is on my Sundowner) to boost the battery. In my case there's always a qualified pilot at the controls with feet firmly on the brakes, and throttle just cracked enough so she'll catch.

An O-360 is a fair bit of work to swing though... not for wimps.

Beech

[Lightning6]

We're talking Oz here not Canada...If you're a spam-can flyer it's unlikely you've had any training in prop swinging, this chap obviously didn't, the 'got to get home' syndrome is not an excuse, the pilot obviously left the parking brakes off (Inefficient as they are) and had more than 1/4" power set or the aircraft wouldn't have been able to take off.

As for an hour bimble about...If there were any serious problem, anything could happen.

If there is a problem starting an aircraft with an electric starter, and that's the only sort you've flown (no prop swinging experience) then leave it on the ground and get it sorted, unless you're an aircraft engineer. ;)

Common sense innit?

[hatzflyer]

2 of my aircraft are hand start. There is nothing to be scared off.
Having said that I agree entirely with Guppy about learning how to do it properly.
Hand propping anything up to 300 hp is reletively easy and safe, 6pots are slightly trickier, due to the compression positions,as are 3 bladed props.

As with all things aviation, correct training,current practice and good procedures minimise risk. Short cuts kill you

[SNS3Guppy]

Common sense innit?


Not if you're stuck somewhere and there's no other option. Knowing how to start an airplane without the starter motor is as important to a student pilot in a Cessna 152 or 172 as it is in a J-3 cub. It's a basic skill, and should be taught as part of propeller and engine handling skills.

How could a student ever pull an engine through if the student hasn't been properly taught? How could the student ever be considered schooled in pulling the engine through at all, if the student hasn't been properly taught to hand prop? The same precautions, techniques, and practices apply.

A R-985 is easy enough to handprop if done properly. I presently work with an individual who is without a medical certificate at the moment; he made an error in handpropping his propeller and was struck in the head. His propeller was on a twin commanche, and it was a low prop, which requires special care to prevent leaning into the propeller during the downstroke. To compound his problem, he's fairly tall. A nice gentleman, he doesn't remember what he did wrong because he doesn't remember anything at all. He was at a remote location, and managed to drag himself part way onto a structure before collapsing. Law enforcement officials later found him in a coma...and he stayed in that coma for a time before recovering.

He hopes to get his medical back soon. He's not an inexperienced pilot, but setting aside the particulars of his incident as being unrecoverable due to his memory loss...nobody is immune from being hurt handpropping a propeller. It's a safe enough activity, and an easy one, but demands respect. Accordingly, no competent instructor should ever consider letting a student go who hasn't been properly schooled in the handling of a propeller.

An O-360 is a fair bit of work to swing though... not for wimps.


An 0-360 really isn't any different when it comes to handpropping than a C-80 or an 0-320. It's a small piston engine, and the secret isn't in how hard the prop is swung, but how the engine is prepared (on the compression stroke, engine primed, mag on, brakes set, tail tied, chocked, throttle cracked, mixture set, and engine position on the impulse coupling).

So you hand swing it, and once it is running, go flying for an hour to top up the battery. It's much less trouble than opening the baggage door and bulkhead (where the battery is on my Sundowner) to boost the battery.


While this is true, one must consider the circumstance. If it's simply a dead battery, then one should investigate the cause before one elects to ignore the cause and press on. If you're stuck in the middle of nowhere and have no choice...that's one thing. If you're simply too lazy to remove the battery and charge and test it properly...that's another matter.

Bear in mind that running the airplane isn't a substitute for charging the battery, and your electrical system was never intended to be used for charging the battery. Keeping it topped when it's in good working order, yes. Recharging it, no.

A discharged battery takes a higher charging current, which means greater demand on the alternator/generator, and a higher temperature increase in wiring and the battery. In some systems this can cause battery thermal damage, and in nicads, can cause a thermal runaway...I have seen a thermal runaway melt through the underside of an airplane, and i've seen lead terminals melted off batteries, before.

If the dead battery is caused by a short, you're feeding the short and setting yourself up for a fire. Several nights ago one of our airplanes caught fire just after takeoff as the result of a short. Unfortunately a failed circuit breaker didn't do it's job: circuit breakers are there to protect wiring not components, and it didn't stop the wiring from burning...which melted surrounding wiring, and soon caused multiple shorts that accelerated the problem...eventually burning out a good share of the wiring runs and associated nearby materials, throughout the airplane. This occurred at night in a remote area over unfriendly terrain. The crew was able to get turned around and landed again...and bailed out of the cockpit choking and coughing from the smoke.

Take care that you don't ignore the warning signs the airplane is giving you. The airplane will talk to you, often giving you subtle hints about what's to come. Your first sign of a catastrophic failure may be a little oil or fuel leaking or seeping, and it may be the only warning you get. An airplane caught fire while I approached an airport to land several years ago, and the slightest hint of burning insulation was the only warning I had before the cockpit was engulfed in smoke, and I couldn't breathe. I ignored that warning, thinking it was just my imagination. When I was over the airport (fortunately) in an overhead break, I had no doubt that I was on fire, and by the time I touched down, I coudln't see anything in the cockpit, or breathe.

Don't set yourself up to be in that position. Perhaps the dead battery really is a dead battery, but perhaps it's wrought on by something else. Your best bet is to remove the battery, inspect and test it, charge it, and reinstall it, and not fly until you've determined the cause of the power loss. Even if you know the cause (a master switch has been left on over night, for example, and the electric gyro has drained the battery), you're still better off removing the battery before you do any charging. The wiring in your aircraf was never intended for recharging a depleted battery.

Of course, you always have the option of flying home with no battery, removing it there, and charging it away from the aircraft.

Don't simply assume that the battery just needs a little charge and it will be good to go...that's often not the case, and even if it is...the routine act of charging it in situ can cause anything from equipment damage to corrosion from boiling or spilling electrolyte or gassing from the battery during the depleted charging process, to the rare-but-possible explosion, to say nothing of filling your engine compartment or empennage with flammable hydrogen gasses, and exposing avionics and other equipment to potential voltage and current threats.

Regardless of whether you ever do need to handprop, one should still learn the proper technique; it's a basic skill of aircraft handling that should be common to all airmen who fly piston powered propeller driven aircraft.

[cessna-kevin]

Good heavans im a bit suprised by all of this, during training at egka my instructor colin c often said let go of the controls which i then did and the aircraft would fly better by itself.

[blue up]

There are infront-of proppers and behind-prop swingers. Depends somewhat on your favoured method, the angle of the blade to your feet (Knee slicer?), and whether there is something to hang onto. In post 27, I've gone the behind-prop since there is something to hang onto, the throttle and fuel tap are there and it is easier to swing a Limbach from behind the port side if you are right-handed.

I've always thought that parking brakes are there for the same reason as fuel gauges. Decoration only.

Anyone feel brave enough to video "the correct way to swing" and stick it up on a video site? I must admit that I was self-taught after watching a couple of videos on youtube.

[hatzflyer]

Thats probably not wise as there could be a legal liability from any such post which is beyond the control of the poster!

Anyway, as someone that is in practice and has taught others, I don't think it is practical to put it on video.
There is no facility for interaction between the teacher and the person being taught. Therefor the teacher has no way of knowing if the person being taught has taken all the information on board and getting it wrong could easily kill some-one.:=

I strongly suggest that this is a case of one to one hands on teaching.

edited...the best place to get advice in the UK is through the LAA coaching scheme. They do courses.:ok:

[Mark1234]

Aside from hand propping, and other comments on the flat battery scenario, I also seem to recall from somewhere that if there's not enough juice in the battery to 'excite' the alternator field, that the alternator won't actually be able to generate charge anyway. Different if you've got a generator mind you.

[Pilot DAR]

The aircraft pictured wrecked appears to me to ba a Cessna 206, not a 172. (no copilot's door, but two back doors).The Cessna 206 was only ever equipped with the IO-520, or less commonly the IO-470 engine, both of which are injected, and use a starter drive, which employs a constricting clutch spring, not a "bendix". Though mechanically. it is very possible to hand start these engines, the fuel injection system makes it a miserable task. Often these aircraft are configured with a three blade prop, which can make hand propping half again more more dangerous. (A Lycoming with a bendix engaged after a failed starter satart attempt cannot be practically hand propped, and must have a starter start next).

The IO-520 engines can be challenging to start when hot, and it is common for an inexperienced pilot to run a battery flat trying. The fact that the pilot got it running by hand is a minor miracle. I have hand propped a modified IO-520, with a two blade prop, and a carb in place of the injection system, on a Cennsa 185, and that worked fine. I was at the controls of an injected one in a C185 amphib, which was started by hand, but I was quite surprised it worked, (and you still needed the electrics for the fuel pump to prime it).

Hand propping is common, and safe, when properly trained, and executed. The Cessna 206 was never intended for hand starting, and attempting it must have been an act of desperation. Like any accident, many things have to go wrong at the same time: Won't start normally, decided to try by hand, no qualified person at the controls, and not restrained during the start. If any one had gone differently, we would probably not be reading about this....

Oh well, our insurance premiums go up again...

Pilot DAR

[hatzflyer]

Just looked at the pic again...I think you are correct!

[Brian Abraham]

Aircraft is a U206F. The missing engine, complete with prop, is resting on the ground at the apex of the fuselage and left wing trailing edge. Have pics but subject to copyright.