Tom tom for Nav?

[hightower1986]

Sure this sounds stupid, but I was wondering if a car GPS such as Tom Tom would be of any benefit if you became lost whilst en route? To give you the name of the local town etc, I assume it would still work upstairs and wouldnt know you were 2-4000ft or so?

[tmmorris]

Exactly as you say - it would still work and would enable you to know where you were on a road map. Better than nothing as a backup.

I'm assuming from the question that you already have one so it's a zero cost option - otherwise there are a number of devices which can use both types of map (not an expert so won't recommend one but I'm sure someone will).

Tim

[hightower1986]

Yeah already got a cheapo Garmin car nav but was thinking it could be handy to take as a back up? Wait for abuse to follow!

[Agaricus bisporus]

Frankly, if your navigation skills are this bad (to say nothing of your attitudes towards aviation in general) you should stay on the ground, if only out of respect for the safety of everyone else. You certainly shouldn't hold a pilot's licence of any kind.

Find another way to kill yourself without endangering others...

But then this IS a wind-up, isn't it?

Isn't it???

[BackPacker]

I think the PocketFMS team is actually working on porting their software to road navigation devices, including the TomTom. Don't know the status though, and don't know for sure if the TomTom is included and if so, what models.

When using a standard TomTom in the air, DO NOT configure a route or otherwise it will continuously recalculate until it eventually crashes. Or so I've heard. Just use it as a moving map.

Edited: Checked the PocketFMS website, couldn't find anything wrt. the standalone TomTom devices. Lots of info on operating the TomTom software in conjunction with PocketFMS on the same PocketPC hardware but that's not what you're looking for.

[Captain-Random]

I've used a tom tom as a passenger once flying near leeds and its pretty crap tbh. It always puts you on the nearest road, even if the nearest road is 3 fields north of where you are. I don't know if there is a way to configure it so it doesn't think your a car but just an object going as the crow flies :confused:

[liam548]

Nokia Maps 3 on my phone works well (N95 8GB) but any Nseries phone can run nokia maps if it has in built GPS. It does not try to put you on a road at all. It gives you speed which you can then read off in knots giving you your GS. You can also use the GPS data app on the phone so you can get the phone to point to VRPs and any other way point you wish to set up. Just follow the arrow and it also gives ETA and altitudes.


Even does wx forecasting now and you can set it to show satellite images like google earth or terrain levels instead of road maps.

Good as a back up and its already on the phone!

:)

[juliet india mike]

AB wrote~
"Frankly, if your navigation skills are this bad (to say nothing of your attitudes towards aviation in general) you should stay on the ground, if only out of respect for the safety of everyone else. You certainly shouldn't hold a pilot's licence of any kind.

Find another way to kill yourself without endangering others..."

Yet another up beat and positive Pprune response. No wonder this place is a laughing stock.

[dublinpilot]

I think the PocketFMS team is actually working on porting their software to road navigation devices, including the TomTom. Don't know the status though, and don't know for sure if the TomTom is included and if so, what models.

[...]

Edited: Checked the PocketFMS website, couldn't find anything wrt. the standalone TomTom devices. Lots of info on operating the TomTom software in conjunction with PocketFMS on the same PocketPC hardware but that's not what you're looking for.


PocketFMS (http://www.pocketfms.com) will work on many many car sat nav units, but they must be based on the WinCE operating system.

Unfortunately both TomTom and Garmin Nuvi car sat nav's do not use with WinCE operating system, and can't be used with PocketFMS.

If you haven't yet purchased your car sat nav, then it's worth deciding before you buy it, if you want to use PocketFMS (or other software) with it first, as it will obviously affect your decision.

When looking for such a device, it's also good to check out the screen when outside in sunlight. Some of them are washed out and hard to see, and some of the better ones (eg. Navigon 8110, Mio C320) are excellent and easy to read in daylight. It makes a world of difference in the cockpit.

dp

[hightower1986]

No my Navigation skills are not that shocking that I am trying to find my way around with a car sat nav, I asked a simple question wondering if it would be of any use to take a long just in case as we are not all super human flying machine such as the great flying mushroom "Agaricus bisporus" surely you must have something more constructive to do with your time then give me a load of s**t for asking this, personally i think that it a sensible suggestion that us mere mortals may of not otherwise thought.

Whilst i think of another way to kill myself ill carry on using the good old map like im used to! :ok:

[bill.lumbergh]

There is a page in TomTom where you can see your lat and long. If you have a map with you (which I hope you would - unless you got lost in the circuit area!) then yeah the TomTom can be a handy backup.

Agaricus bisporus - If I crashed and had mobile phone coverage then I'd like to be able to give the rescuers an accurate coordinate to pick me up from rather than putting all my faith in the ELT option. I believe the technical term for someone like you is d!ckhead.

[Whopity]

Whilst i think of another way to kill myself ill carry on using the good old map like im used to!Is it Michelin, AA or CAA?
As a long time user of Tom Tom, I can't imagine what it displays that can be of any use in an aeroplane. Lat and Long is no use unless you have a relevant map to plot it on in which case look out of the window!

Once upon a time there was a Road Almanac called "Bradshaws"; pilots who followed roads were known as "Bradshaw Pilots"

My phone has Tom Tom and Memorymap in it, now the latter is useful for showing a student where they have been, especially their circuit patern.

[worrab]

Alternatively, use a (eg Garmin 496 or Av8or or ...) for your in-car nav and take that flying with you. Can't speak from experience, but there are many positive comments about these devices for both road and air application.

[hightower1986]

No the map I use is the one found in the times world atlas, its very handy in case i decide to pop over to America for example!:ugh:
Yes it is a current CAA chart and the origianl question was not meant to sound like such an unreasonable thing to ask, thanks to some for the useful information, i thought this may be something that not many people had thought of as a last resort that are too shy to ask the nice guys and gals of LARS etc

[airwave45]

If your phone runs any kind of WinMo (smart phone, windows operating system) and has a built in GPS load up winpilot.
WinPilot (http://winpilot.com)
runs a treat, shows airspace in 3d, you can use it for very detailed route planning. also has info on most airports. Assuming this is a "back up" only the battery life of around 3 hours (most phones) shouldn't be a problem

anyone who still persists in using a map (be it michelin or CAA) to navigate around is a danger to all and sundry and should get with the times.

Far better to be looking for traffic than messing about with a map.

[CS-CCO]

I've always heard from the mouth of VERY experienced Pilots and Instructors that specially during training there would only be 2 types of pilots the ones that had been lost at a certain point and the ones who were still going to be lost at a certain point.

AFAIK it's a very relevant question.

[Molesworth 1]

Garmin car sat-nav can be put into an overview mode which doesn't try to put you on roads. I've tried it a few times - helpful if you're looking for a particular town (Battle was my example) but next to useless if not sure of position (for example, the Chilterns).

[hightower1986]

Why is it dangerous to be flying around using a map? is this not how it is done? Thought that was the whole point of the things!

[FullyFlapped]

It really does no good to bite at the output of idiots like Agaricus : accept that attitudes such as his are either exactly what you'd expect from someone named after a fungus, or deliberate wind-ups (which I think is the case with his "contribution" - he even tells the Dear Reader as much).

Don't water or feed the weeds, you'll only encourage them!

[Mark1234]

Just a cautionary note on the likes of the N95; I use mine with sportstracker for tracking bike rides. A few weeks back, I got home and downloaded my track to find it thinks I rode for half an hour a couple of miles out to sea. Pretty sure it's wrong.. might not be the most accurate GPS going then!

[The Heff]

anyone who still persists in using a map (be it michelin or CAA) to navigate around is a danger to all and sundry and should get with the times.

Far better to be looking for traffic than messing about with a map.

What's the difference between messing around with a chart, or messing around with a GPS? The dangerous pilots are those who spend too much time "eyes in" and not looking out, regardless of what they're playing with in the cockpit.

[Whopity]

anyone who still persists in using a map (be it michelin or CAA) to navigate around is a danger to all Thats not what 27 years of Military flying tells me!

[hightower1986]

IF its dangerous navigating by a map then why does every CAA/FAA continue to teach Visual Navigation techniques using a MAP and not spend the time learning how to program the GPS!!?:ugh:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

last resort that are too shy to ask the nice guys and gals of LARS etc
Ah! - maybe what's called for is a ride with an instructor doing some radio practice then.

If you've managed to completely lose yourself such that you can't find out where you are using

- map
- VOR
- ADF
- DME (OK, so personally I've never tried to fix my position using nothing but DME and a chart and a pen, but it's obviously possible)

and there's no GPS built into the aircraft, then provided your radio is working you've got

- VDF [#]
- LARS
- a call to London Centre on 121.5

all of which will tell you something useful about where you are, and all of which are best practised when you aren't actually lost, so that you're confident doing them.

If that's not an option, eg because you've got a total electical failure, then sure, any hand-held widget, even one as inappropriate as a mobile phone running car navigation software, could turn out to be better than nothing.

But I would claim that this is a last resort, to be tried after all attempts via radio to get someone on the ground to help you have failed.

Plus, if you're lost, there's a fair chance you're in someone else's airspace, and I can assure you that they would much much rather you called them first rather than spent time fiddling around with some electronic toy.

[#] I made a practice QDM call once. I got the expected response, but didn't follow the given course, because I wasn't planning on returning direct to the field. I got called up a few minutes later by the controller giving me a new QDM - clearly he was assuming that I was (a) lost and (b) having problems following the first QDM he gave me. Perhaps I should have said on the first call that I wasn't lost and just wanted to see what a QDM call was like in real life.

[airwave45]

I knew that would lead to the ol duffers popping out of the woodwork :ugh:

Before I take off I tend to have a bit of a plan, that plan tends to be in 3 separate gps devices before the wheels start turning.

the only messing about I have to do is in the event that the flight does not go according to plan, other than that I'm monitoring the gps's to see they agree with each other and that mark 1 eyeball agrees with the screens.

a map ! puleeze . . . . . :ugh: erm, anyone else noticed it's 2009?

technology is there to make things easier, use it. It will reduce your workload and give you better things to be doing with your time than fighting with fold lines.
Besides, flapping a map around has a high pobability of disturbing the coffee, definitely unsafe having coffee swilling round the place.....

[The Heff]

a map ! puleeze . . . . . :ugh: erm, anyone else noticed it's 2009?

F*ck! I thought it was 1959! :eek:

Technically I would first like to point out that we use charts in aviation, not maps. Just an idiosyncracy inherited from the nautical world. :8

Secondly, I actually agree with you that technology should make our lives easier, but only if one decides to accept it. I for one, have the strange notion that technology actually makes life expensive; so its actually a preferable solution to be a luddite on occasion. £17.50 for the relevant CAA chart or £600 pounds for a GPS (and you can't legally use GPS as a primary mode of navigation anyway) provides a convincing argument for the old-fashioned way. The fact that you use three separate GPS units just indicates that you have money to burn.

I really don't mind how you navigate, but why does it bother you that some pilots prefer to use charts?

[Captain Smithy]

Hang on a sec. A thread about GPS. Where's IO extolling its virtues whilst slagging off PPL training and navigation as being stuck in WW1? ;)

No offence intended IO540, just jesting :)

Smithy

[Whopity]

Technically I would first like to point out that we use charts in aviation, not maps.Actually the CAA Chart is a Topographical Map with a chart laid over it! So it is both Map and Chart.

[Shunter]

you can't legally use GPS as a primary mode of navigation anyway

Would you care to provide a reference to substantiate that? As far as I recall, the last time this was discussed the regulations were found to say something along the lines of "suitable form of navigation equipment" and made no mention of the word "chart" whatsoever. As such, providing your GPS can alert you to danger zones, airspace boundaries, obstacles etc it fulfils these criteria. Not only that, but you are in the driving seat when it comes to updating which means you don't have to wait anything more than a month to get a new database.

Most of my primary nav is done using GPS, although I find a chart much easier for at-a-glance airspace recognition, especially in highly segmented areas with different CTA bottoms.

[LH2]

technology is there to make things easier

Not necessarily. I get the impression too many laymen are fascinated by it and will use (recent, electronic) technology for the sake of technology whether or not there is a more appropriate solution.

To follow the example at hand, a paper map has got a number of advantages on and off the cockpit, amongst the most important for me are the lack of maintenance and the amount of context it gives you thanks to its size (or you could always carry a nuclear powered, A-1 sized, foldable GPS I suppose :rolleyes:)

[hightower1986]

Wow well this has turned into quite the heated debate, :ooh: It was a simple question I asked, obviously I should of expected the usual comments as this is Pprune. Surely the safest way of navigating is by using the Gps combined with a chart/map whatever you may call it, to cross reference, obviously investing in a Gps is at least 6 hours sky time in a C150 put put ( for a half decent gpd anyway).

But hopefully when I have some money again, I shall add it to the wish list, so do most of you that use the Gps still use a chart/map also or just leave it in the car?

[airwave45]

I do almost all my planning off the map (chart) :uhoh:
then goto the waypoints nearest where I actually want to go via.
(aviation in my case being almost exclusively a method of getting from point A to point A)

I would encourage you to have more than 1 gps on the go, in my limited, sheltered, life it's not unknown for the beasties to keel over (almost always power related issues, but never easy to fix in the air) best to have some redundancy built in.

Given that a lot of my flying is spent significantly above clouds, Maps are all but useless anyway.

modern gps software makes airspace avoidance simple as it works in 3 dimensions, you can have vertical separation warnings and horizontal separation warnings, show or hide various pieces of airspace to your hearts content and have warnings for whatever you want, at whatever distance you want.

each to their own.
I have the utmost respect for those who choose to use a map, but I know I can't fight with a map and fly at the same time.

cheapest way to do it?
get a smartphone with all the bells and whisltles on a cheap contract (Winmo)
install Winpilot VFR.
that'll cost you less than a dedicated GPS and give you a phenomenal piece of kit, showing all airport info, frequencies, airspace, yada yada yada, for what you would be paying for yer phone anyway + the cost of the software. (with limited battery life, watch that)

on a half decent contract you can have free 'tinternet on it and it'll show realtime weather too. (separate programme)

takes a lot less to understand the modern software than it does to understand VOR . . . . and it's faster / more accurate / less fiddly / less operator dependant / i.e. safer.

[TrafficPilot]

hightower1986

I've experimented with my Navigo car satnav with TomTom software installed hoping it may have been of some use in showing me extra detail on road names (for traffic spotting). Our built-in Bendix aviation GPS is great but only shows major road numbers (ie A34, M3 etc).

The major problem for me with TomTom was that the map zoom function cannot be switched off so even if you zoom out when airborne - the software "auto zooms" back in after around 10-20 seconds. You don't really want to be hitting the "-"button every few seconds while trying to fly the aeroplane as well.

I am investigating installing the Memory Map CAA charts on my Navigo so I can have a cheap backup to my chart nav in an aircraft with no inbuilt GPS.

Memory Map can apparently work on many car satnavs but requires some "adjustment" to the registry/desktop on products built by Navigo. Not sure if this is case with other manufacturers devices.

TrafficPilot

[mikehallam]

The BMAA forum is free access and in their sub div. Technical Questions & Answers:- Have a look at "Memory Map CAA charts on a cheap satnav".
Chap there has done a lot of the needed work on how to etc.

Mike Hallam.

[eph6]

airwave45, what phone do think would be the best? or would you look at a pda, like the ipaq 214, need to renew contract. fungus boy, i despair, it was a very sensible question.

[Eric T Cartman]

Traffic Pilot

I have a TomTom GO 530 so the menu may differ from yours.
If I hit "Change preferences" then the ">" icon 3 times, it gives an "Automatic zooming" icon. This allows me to disable the auto zoom in Driving View.

I've stored navaids as POI's on it & have used it when SLF on 737's & I reckon it is capable of giving you a pretty accurate fix but that's from an ATCO's point of view , not a pilot's :cool: In any case, it's got to be better than nothing !

[liam548]

I do almost all my planning off the map (chart) :uhoh:
then goto the waypoints nearest where I actually want to go via.
(aviation in my case being almost exclusively a method of getting from point A to point A)

I would encourage you to have more than 1 gps on the go, in my limited, sheltered, life it's not unknown for the beasties to keel over (almost always power related issues, but never easy to fix in the air) best to have some redundancy built in.

Given that a lot of my flying is spent significantly above clouds, Maps are all but useless anyway.

modern gps software makes airspace avoidance simple as it works in 3 dimensions, you can have vertical separation warnings and horizontal separation warnings, show or hide various pieces of airspace to your hearts content and have warnings for whatever you want, at whatever distance you want.

each to their own.
I have the utmost respect for those who choose to use a map, but I know I can't fight with a map and fly at the same time.

cheapest way to do it?
get a smartphone with all the bells and whisltles on a cheap contract (Winmo)
install Winpilot VFR.
that'll cost you less than a dedicated GPS and give you a phenomenal piece of kit, showing all airport info, frequencies, airspace, yada yada yada, for what you would be paying for yer phone anyway + the cost of the software. (with limited battery life, watch that)

on a half decent contract you can have free 'tinternet on it and it'll show realtime weather too. (separate programme)

takes a lot less to understand the modern software than it does to understand VOR . . . . and it's faster / more accurate / less fiddly / less operator dependant / i.e. safer.

Do you know of any such software for Symbian smartphones?

[airwave45]

I'm using an HTC Touch HD as the screen is huge and bright.
It also runs for 4 hours with the brightness up full and the GPS functional.
+ back up battery pugged in + solar charging
(Solar Charger + battery 23 quid)

Switch the phone to "aircraft mode" i.e. switch off all the transmitter functions to save battery life.

think the screen is 800 x 480 pixels so it is very high def.

only software I know of runs on WinMo.

SeeYou (http://www.seeyou.ws)

WinPilot (http://www.winpilot.com)

winpilot VFR gives you pretty much everything you'll need en route.

http://www.winpilot.com/images4/VFR2.gif

[TrafficPilot]

Eric T Cartman (http://www.pprune.org/members/16345-eric-t-cartman)I have a TomTom GO 530 so the menu may differ from yours.
If I hit "Change preferences" then the ">" icon 3 times, it gives an "Automatic zooming" icon. This allows me to disable the auto zoom in Driving View.That's interesting. My TomTom software doesn't have that option:hmm:

Maybe it's time for me to upgrade!

Thanks for the info

TrafficPilot