When to select flaps up in a A320?

[Microburst2002]

I have noticed that sometimes, when heavy and hot, if I order flaps up just when passing S speed, the airplane will stop climbing, or even slightly sink for a while (more if in a turn).
But when I delay asking for flaps up because of this, letting speed to get closer to Green Dot, the captain will "force" me to ask for it putting his hand in the lever, or announcing "s speed" or even selecting it on his own. Even if VFE is still not a problem.

¿Is there a manual or briefing or whatever that makes any recomendation on this subject?

thanks

[thesilversurfer]

There is nothing regarding hot/heavy t/off's in the FCTM. However the following procedure is based on encountering turbulence during flap retraction

Ref FCTM Sup Ops,Adverse WX


For takeoff in high turbulence, the flight crew must wait for the target speed +20 kt (limited to VFE-5)
before retracting the slats/flaps (e.g. the flight crew must wait for F+20 kt before setting Flaps 1).

[MD11forever]

The manual to consult are the SOP of your company. These will more or less follow the guidelines form Airbus. See FCOM 3.3.12:
At F-Speed: Flaps 1
At S-Speed: Flaps 0

[Henry VIII]

even selecting it on his ownInstead to become mad trying to find possible solution(s) within the books, ask to the LH seat filler a reason about his/her behavior.
Ask him/her "why are you forcing me to do someting while I'm still flying within acft limits and company rules ? could you be so kindly to give me written reference about it, or it's simply your personal point of view ?"
It should be a good food for thought about CRM.

[TyroPicard]

For takeoff in high turbulence, the flight crew must wait for the target speed +20 kt (limited to VFE-5)
before retracting the slats/flaps (e.g. the flight crew must wait for F+20 kt before setting Flaps 1).Not really relevant when going from 1+F to 0 at heavy weight - auto flap retract will occur at about S speed.

Microburst - are you following the FD pitch commands precisely or just allowing the FBW to compensate for flap retraction? It is not perfect in this situation - fly the aeroplane!

[Microburst2002]

When flying with FD I never let it sink, always 100 fpm at least.
But AP will not ignore the bars.
It is not very important, maybe, but I just don't like when that happens.

Thank you all for your replies!

[John Citizen]

the captain will "force" me to ask for it putting his hand in the lever,

I find this very annoying when the captain / other pilot does this to me. :mad:

Especially when the other pilot expects me to ask for gear and flap up/down at a different point to SOP. :confused:

At other times/situations, it may not be clearly defined in the SOP's but these captains believe everyone should be flying to the captains own technique as if this is the one and only way to fly.

There are quite often several different techniques within the SOP's.

Kind off an insult to my flying ability too. :{ It's as if I am not aware when to call for gear or flap. :confused: I might as well sit in the back if they are going to talk me through everything. :p

Otherwise maybe some of these control freaks just like to be in full control and perhaps don't like an FO asking the captain to do things (giving orders).

I often wonder how these captains would react if started doing the same to them (placing my hand on the gear and flap lever before they ask for it) ?:ooh: I am sure they wouldn't like it all and it could possibly lead to conflict in the flight deck :mad:

[TyroPicard]

Not worth getting your knickers in a twist about, IMHO. It is merely another form of communication - body language that says "I'm ready when you are...". It annoyed me for a few years, then I just accepted it and got on with enjoying the job.. though occasionally I would leave the call as late as possible just to irritate - but always with a smile! On the previous generation of airliner one could call for a heading adjustment to get that hand up onto the glareshield - now we do it all in NAV and the opportunities for fun have reduced...

[John Citizen]

It is merely another form of communication - body language that says "I'm ready when you are...".

Yes, that's one way of looking at it :ok:

But I interpret it as :

"you should be calling for gear and flap THIS MOMENT NOW, let me remind you, as this is when I would be calling for it. I got no regard for SOP's or other techniques within the SOP's. I know better than anyone else or the book. This action must be done now when I say"

or

"you are totally incompetent and I have no trust in your flying ability. I always have to drop subtle hints to you"

or

"you might be the Pilot Flying / Handling Pilot, however, "I, the captain" still have ultimate control and will control how you fly. I alone will make the decision when to operate the gear and flaps, and not you on your call. I will talk you through everything you do"

[TyroPicard]

Sounds as though you fly along trying to decide which of the three applies today... If it bugs you that much, have you tried discussing it? Try a bit of banter?

[Boroda]

Some flight cases to share with you on this topic.

When you are heavy, especially on 321, but it even can occure on 320, late retraction leads to overspeed warning as it active according to actual sl or fl position in contrary to PFD bar that dissapears togeather with lever.

When you are fast in retraction even at F, S speed you can fall on Vls, even Aprotection if command for retraction goes togeather with steep banking to tailwind.

I have seen both cases by myself, the first one more often, but the second one left more emotions in me.

[Jumbo Driver]

John Citizen, after reading your last post, I would respectfully suggest that you may be the one with the problem if that really is your attitude.

A gentle prompt from the LHS should not elicit such a seemingly aggressive attitude from you. Try and think why you are being prompted and seek to learn from other pilots' techniques. If this is occurring repeatedly, then it might even be that you yourself are not adhering to your company SOPs or best handling practice. Professional flying is a continual learning process. There is no room for feelings of self-righteous indignation or affront in a professional flight deck.


JD
:)

[Carnage Matey!]

Oh I don't know, that sort of behaviour gets on my tits too and it only ever seems to come from captains at the lower end of the ability scale. Often the same people who insist on saying "1000 to go" at 1200 to go when they're handling.

[John Citizen]

Jumbo driver :

Problem with my atttitude ? Aggressive attitude ? :confused:

Sorry, please explain. I don't understand. :confused:

In these situations, I go along peacefully with the other pilot and do things if prompted. It just annoys me but I keep quiet. Is this aggressive ?

In regards to SOP's, in my last cyclic I flew with a training captain in the LHS who kept on prompting me to lower flap when I did not want to. I eventually gave in due to his persistence and went along with him. During the briefing at the end, I was criticised for lowering flap too early !! :ugh:

But hey, who I am to know better ? I am just an aggressive inexerienced FO with an attitude problems who refuses to listen. :ugh:

Often the same people who insist on saying "1000 to go" at 1200 to go when they're handling.

Yes, this is very annoying too but I just go along with it.

I sometimes wonder what would happen (I never do this) if :
-I replied "negative, I still got 1200 to go" :p (no doubt he would see me as a smart ass, but hey, the altimeters are out of tolerance :p !!)
or
- If started doing the same calls (other pilots standard calls) at the same time as the other pilot (early) when I was the Handling pilot / Pilot Flying.

Looks like its a race to some pilots who can make all the standard calls first, whether its their duty or not.

I once had a captain who still made my standard calls after I already made them :confused:

I think pilots who act like this have a "control freak" personality disorder and I am still trying to work out how best to deal with these people.

Suggestions anyone ?

[Gary Lager]

'"Hand on the flap lever' - I have had an 'over-eager' FO select Flaps up in a B737 when I asked for "gear up". This was an 'action slip' - right action, wrong moment. Placing your hand on a switch in anticipation of your colleague calling for it is asking for trouble, and leaves you exposed to errors of this type.

Do not put your hand on a switch or lever until a) asked for and b) you have confirmed it is the correct one.

"Have you tried discussing it?" - That advice is more properly directed to those pilots who feel that putting their hands on a safety-critical lever is an appropriate form of communication! What's wrong with "Shouldn't we select flaps up now?"?!

[Jumbo Driver]

But hey, who I am to know better ? I am just an aggressive inexerienced FO with an attitude problems who refuses to listen. :ugh:

I guess you meant this in irony but that's precisely the way your second post came across I'm afraid - hence my response.

Cool it ... ;)


JD
:)

[KERDUNKER]

On the other side of the coin this sort of action can be very helpful during your LPC AND OPC often leading to a beer.

[Microburst2002]

There are so many different situations...

For instance, you have just made G/S interception at 3,000 and are waiting as usual to the flaps 2 moment, but then captain puts his hand on the lever. Then you think "OK, I got it, but why so soon?" then call for flaps 2. Then you see the TCAS traffic ahead, which is now getting closer than 5 nm. "So that's why!" Thank you captain.

And other times he puts the hand on the lever just because he would do it in that moment and he wants you to do it exactly at the moment he would do it. Well, it is annoying sometimes, makes you feel "accused".

In take off, some captains consider autoflap retraction as an offence. Others like to make use of it. By the way: Anything written regarding this?

[PantLoad]

Gentlemen:

It is absolutely critical that flaps/slats be extended/retracted at exactly the correct speeds.....also, with regard to the 1000-feet-to-go callout,
the call must be made at exactly 1000 for the callout to be effective.

Otherwise, we'll all be killed......


Fly safe,


PantLoad

[Osterhase]

Come on pilots,


don`t behave like little girls.

Flaps are selected zero at S speed.

Don`t try to things in an extra clever way, which the one in command can not anticipate.

As a copilot, you are supposed to assist and support and not to start discussions on stupid things like that, this is not good CRM either.



Osterhase (copilot)

[John Citizen]

Extract directly from the A320 Flight Crew Training manual :


Suplementary Information
Adverse Weather
TAKE-OFF
For takeoff in high turbulence, the flight crew must wait for the target speed +20 kt (limited to VFE-5)
before retracting the slats/flaps (e.g. the flight crew must wait for F+20 kt before setting Flaps 1).


No girlish behaviour here :confused:

The book (FCTM) says you MUST fly this way, but doesn't look like some pilots are aware of this and only fly by the FCOM SOP section (where it says flaps retracted at F/S speed).

I also wasn't aware of this (FCTM procedure) until now :O

Definitetly worth discussion I say. :ok:

[Retire2015]

So in this circumstance of high turbulence:

Accelerating through S speed, I would verbalize "I am going to let the speed build another 20 knots before retracting flaps due to this turbulence."

The practice of verbalizing any variation from the norm is my normal mode of operation - this way your partner is in the loop with your thinking and intentions.

R

[MU3001A]

Forgive my ignorance, but how are we defining high turbulence and how might one differentiate it from say large turbulence or tall turbulence?

[TyroPicard]

John Citizen
I am tempted to point out post #2 but that's a bit like putting my hand on the flap lever before your call..:)

Very relevant when selecting Flap 1 but not Flap 0, on a heavy aircraft S speed is close to Flap auto-retract speed. In high (sic) turbulence at max weight auto-retract will probably happen as you accelerate, due to speed fluctuations - all as designed and you still have the slats working for you. The trick is to stay below VFE until the flaps are retracted - the VMAX tape moves to a higher speed when the flaps start to retract.

And to take retire2015's point a little further, on a turbulent day this is a good subject to include in the T/O brief - that way the PNF is already in the loop from the start.

[porch monkey]

Finally, someone has hit the nail on the head. Retire 2015. TALKING to the other pilot, be they Captain or F/O, especially during the brief. Doing that has meant I've never had to feel that "they" were forcing me to do anything. I've also learned a great deal from their experience, when I've asked about the different ways they work within the FCOM/OPs Man etc.

[Jimmy Do Little]

Just use - and brief - the use of the "Auto-Retract" system (1+f to 1 automatically). Perfectly acceptable per the FCOM. The issue should then solve itself.

[PappyJ]

The book (FCTM) says you MUST fly this way, but doesn't look like some pilots are aware of this and only fly by the FCOM SOP section (where it says flaps retracted at F/S speed).



A regular review of the FCTM and the Supplementary Techniques section of FCOM3 is worthwhile reading.