Are we too old?

[Mike Juliet]

I have just been reading a feature in AV8 Magazine which describes the world of UK GA in about 20 year's time. According to the article, there won't be any due to the lack of younger pilots coming into GA. It got me thinking...and it could be right!

I personally only know one pilot under the age of 40. Yes, I know there are younger ones out there (even 16 year olds) but they seem to be the exception. Looking around the flying club this weekend, I would say the average age of the pilots was 55-60. Now in 20 years, they will be 75-80 and almost certainly won't be flying, so does the article have a point? Where are all the GA pilots in their 20s and 30s? Where is the next generation of UK GA pilots coming from? Just out of curiosity, how old are the pilots on this forum? I would post a link to AV8 Magazine, but not sure if that's allowed, but it's free to view, so just google it.

Just for the record, I am a mere youngster at 45!

[flybymike]

I am nearly sixty and have been flying for 27 years or so. There are certainly many ancient pilots around, and I agree that they tend to dominate the Club bar scene.

However, many people can only afford to learn to fly in middle age, and thus will always make up a large part of GA. When I and many of my ancient peers have hung up our headsets, there will be a further set of old cronies to follow along behind us, that's for sure...

[Lightning6]

Mmmmm...If you were to look on a GA forum (Flyer), you will see there are quite a few youngsters in PPL training, I'm 59 and grounded for medical reasons, but I really hope that GA will continue to grow.

[LH2]

Talking to an Air France captain the other day, he said you only tend to see the very young (under 18s sort of thing) and then the very old (post-retirement) on the PPL/club/gliding scene. His theory was something to do with mortgages/cars/wives/work getting on the way in the 20-60 y.o. bracket :)

So I can't really agree with the assertion that GA will disappear once the lot of you have croaked it (:E) I reckon what is happening is people start training at a latter age, so what is possible is that the average/median age will stay about the same, but the experience level may drop.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm sure it's true. Personally I'd blame the high cost of living combined with the high cost of flying, and the inevitable pressures of being in your 20s.

The solution is almost certainly ways to fly which don't put too much pressure on either the wallet or the diary. To be frank, that eliminates most club rentals, and most gliding clubs.

It pretty much leaves big well run syndicates on modern aeroplanes, and the lower price-bracket microlights. But is anybody selling these to young PPLs and potential PPLs? Dunno.

G

[IO540]

The demographics observation is certainly true. There are graphs in the back of Flight Training News (a free aviation trade rag) in every issue. I've just chucked out the last copy but the average age of a PPL holder is about 50. The CAA license issue data (on their website somewhere) confirms this, from how many licenses are issued to which age group.

No doubt, it is due to most people not having both time and money until later in life.

In my case, I started around age 42 but only after I got divorced - before then the wife would not have allowed it. 10 years later, I am about the youngest of the people I meet with.

The suggestion that the PPL scene will die out is a separate thing, and I don't think it will happen. I think the GA airfield scene will always be dominated by old codgers :) Like the cloud forming above a hill, in constant airflow, we will always have that age group being dominant.

I don't think flying has ever been cheaper than today, relative to the cost of living. It's not a hugely expensive hobby but it's not a cheap one either, and that cost will always select the participants pretty sharply by age and type. Look at the yachting community - similar. I wonder if sailing has as many Walter Mitty types though :)

While the median is clearly 50+, the age distribution (the standard deviation, if you like) is actually wider than most people think, when you look at the FTN graphs. I suspect the reason we see a rather narrower age group around airfields is because the younger ones don't hang around the "anorak scene" very much.

There have been many threads here over the years, on how to bring more "normal" people into GA.

It is a tough assignment. Improving the social scene (more young single women are badly needed) and improving the wreckage scene (the planes, I mean ;) ) is what it will take. Plus decent club facilities, and allowing experienced pilots to hang around as mentors.

It's a catch-22 though. The business as a whole is not interested in turning out pilots; each school has a narrow business view of how much they can extract from each punter before he vanishes for good, and being businesses without any other mandate one can't blame them.

[ExSp33db1rd]

75.

Temporarily - I hope - lost my Class 1 medical for a CPL but will re-apply when the statutory 6 months has passed, tho not prepared to spend a lot of money jumping through too many hoops, but the Recreational Licence will probably be within my grasp, i.e. effectively a PPL to Microlight rules, one of which is only 1 passenger - I can live with that, covers most single engine 4 - seaters

Meanwhile medically fit to continue with the microlight licence - Microlight ? 100 hp. Rotax, variable pitch prop, retractable gear, 130 kts cruise, 4 hours endurance - now available with Glass Cockpit.

The GA scene at our club is almost extinct, not had an aeroplane for over a year. all the pilots running out of licence renewals and turning to microlights, and hey ! finding it fun. The present generation of microlights knock a lot of GA types into a cocked hat, and are affordable, in our case NZ$ 100 /hr ( approx GBP 40.oo ) and if a private owner around 20 litres an hour consumption at NZ$1.60/ ltr. ( approx GBP 65 pence )

Also, the microlight medical - basically the 75 yr. driver medical exam - has brought a lot of older pilots back out of the woodwork, my first student was 78, first learned tio fly when he was 10, but had been without a PPL medical for many years. At age 82 he flew his bride of 60 years - to the minute - over the Bay of Islands on their 60th wedding anniversary - magic.

Microlights also attract the youngsters, being affordable. Had one student start at 14, went solo on his 16th birthday, youngest pilot in NZ for a day.

[liam548]

Im 26 and rattling through the PPL. There are plenty of younger ones flying even that I know of. I would have started younger but it is not until more recently that I have had enough spare cash to fund it.

Maybe the majority of younger pilots use GA as a a stepping stone to commercial flying hence the true GA pilots are older who have more time and money to do it as a "hobby"..?

[Lightning6]

Liam...It's more than just a 'Hobby' it's an obsession, which I sadly miss, I keep in touch with GA by these forums, and it's nice to see the young ones doing what I did, I fulfilled an ambition in life, just sorry I can't continue it, enjoy your flying and make the most of it, I don't mean that sarcastically, I mean it sincerely. :ok:

ExSp33db1rd...You're doing a grand job :ok:.

[Rodent1982]

Personally the club I'm learning at there seems to be far more 'younger' students around 20 - 30.

[tmmorris]

38 myself... learned to fly at 30.

I would agree:

1. those 25-45 too busy having and paying for children;
2. social life tends to revolve around work and/or children, not clubs;
3. when I do get out it's for a limited time: no time to hang around and chat at the club, just in, fly, home.

I certainly plan to spend more time flying when I have more money and fewer kids at home...

Tim

[Lightning6]

Personally the club I'm learning at there seems to be far more 'younger' students around 20 - 30.

Terrific, nice to hear.

[callum91]

It would be interesting to see the statistics on the ages of new PPLs last year.

I learned to fly at 16 and got my licence at 17 and I hardly ever meet qualified pilots of my age. Flying is expensive but I'm certainly not rich - it just depends on what your priorities are (I'm only just learning to drive now).

Learner pilots would appear to be in 3 groups:
Some Under 20 or early 20s
Mainly 40-50 year olds
And a few 60+ year olds

[cats_five]

Why do women have to be young and single? Whats wrong with women who are not single and/or not young? No wonder there are so few women in the GA / gliding world if yours is a typical attitude. The few young and possible single ones get far too much of the wrong sort of attention (from their PoV) and the older and/or not single ones usually get ignored.

[IO540]

OK, fair enough; "old and single" would be a vast improvement over the present GA scene :)

However, looking at it from a business POV, there is no doubt that men with money to spend will spend it where there is an "interesting" social scene.

[jonkil]

Take a look around, you will find the younger people in the microlight scene, basically because it is more affordable, better social scene and better gatherings etc.
In 20 years this is going to be the norm, and "cats five" there is also quite a few women flying microlights... always very welcome at our club.

Jon

[youngskywalker]

In short...don't get married and don't have kids! :ok:

[Rodent1982]

I setup forums for my flying club in an attempt to bring fellow students together and get to know each other. I figure we are all flying the same planes, may complete at roughly the same times and may want friendships in place in order to share fun and flying.

However, the site has had 5 registered members in as many months. Despite a big poster on the notice board in the club.

Speaking with the instructor it appears the majority of students are not as social as I thought.

Perhaps this fits with what's being said here. The majority of younger pilots only have the dosh available as they don't tend to socialise / spend vast sums in pubs n clubs.

If this is the case, do we get to see, hear about the younger hermit type pilots?

[IO540]

I think the forum community is a small chuck of GA.

Most normal people readily use the internet for all the normal stuff but don't spend time on forums :)

There is very likely a formula for making the GA scene more interesting but it is difficult to combine this with the current flying school business model.

A few years ago, I knew of one reasonably bright bloke who was aware of these issues and he said he would set up a school/club which had all the "right stuff", and he indeed did, but very soon it ended up just like all the others: a sausage factory with all the bent practices we read about.

[tmmorris]

youngskywalker,

In a nutshell, yes!*

Tim

*PS it's OK really...

[englishal]

I'm under 40 (for a few weeks :eek:) , started flying at 30, have no kids (no wish to either at the mo), the wife bought me a share - I wanted a Brietling so she bought me one, just not the type that goes on the wrist :D, and we also go to the USA several times per year for some real flying adventures in something new.

I'd like a hard core IFR tourer in the UK but frankly that isn't going to happen anytime soon unless I win the lottery and / or GA in Europe becomes more like the USA. I also don't have any debt caused by flying, and all my licences and ratings are paid for - one of the advantages of getting older. The only way a 17 yo is going to learn to fly is if their parents pay for it. I really couldn't afford to fly until I hit 30 and had a pretty decent job making decent money.

[IO540]

The only way a 17 yo is going to learn to fly is if their parents pay for it

Very true, though him having loads of unlogged flight time, and then going off to the USA to get his JAA PPL, is going to help no end :)

One can do a fair bit of flying on not much of an income IF one lives in a very simple fashion - no family, no boozing, no "accidents" ;)

[bjornhall]

Wonder if this is another one of those problems that is particular to UK GA flying?

Where I fly (Sweden), most people who start their PPL training in a flying club are in the 30 - 40 year bracket, since few will afford it before that... There are older beginners as well, but they are in a minority (they tend to go to soaring or ultralights instead). The younger ones tend to be the most active, so the people I come across at the club are generally in the 30 - 60 bracket; at 36 I'm rarely the youngest. Our flying school has been swamped with new students, signing up faster than we can train them, and it's been that way for several years.

"GA in Europe" is not the same as "GA in the UK"...

[Slopey]

Well, out of the 8 or so people I did my PPL at Ormond a couple of years back (all under 30), I'm the only one who flies now (but now over 30).

The rest are too busy/not interested/can't afford it.

I imagine there's a strong "get the ticket" goal for younger people starting out, but once the realities of cost, maintenance of the licence, medical and availability if not in a group coupled with the UK weather, it's more trouble than it's worth.

(The general unhelpful attitude towards GA at the UK's international spaceports doesn't help either.)

[tmmorris]

One of my colleagues qualifies for a sabbatical soon, and he mentioned to me over lunch the other day that he is thinking of 'getting a pilot's license' during the sabbatical. We discussed his options but he began to look concerned when I pointed out it was merely the first step, not a goal in itself. He hadn't considered the financial and time implications of maintaining the licence.

It is sad that so many people still see it like that - learn to fly, pass the test, then give up.

On the plus side, though - he's never shown any interest before, as far as I know (and all my colleagues know I have a PPL so I would have thought he'd have mentioned it) so I suppose he will be a genuine 'new' person.

Tim

[Put1992]

I'm 17 Y.O and personally only know of one other PPL of the same age

But I know plenty aged 20-24

The only way a 17 yo is going to learn to fly is if their parents pay for it.

To a certain extent, but I Helped for a large portion of it, and still feel guilty!

Cheers, Put.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Very true, though him having loads of unlogged flight time, and then going off to the USA to get his JAA PPL, is going to help no end :)

One can do a fair bit of flying on not much of an income IF one lives in a very simple fashion - no family, no boozing, no "accidents" ;)

And no hiring overpriced thirsty American spamcans!

Youngsters who want to fly can, and do. Most microlight and all glider clubs have a few around.

It's breaking this mindset that the most expensive way to go flying is the only way, along with the fixation on the licence - rather than the through process of flying.

G

[Pace]

Learnt to fly in my 20s now in my 50s. Spent years flying 12-20 hrs a year before going commercial and getting others to let me fly their machinery :)
Now have well over 4000 hrs.

Cost and a young family and low income were a major influence back then.
Maybe also having achieved the goal of a PPL and 10 times around the local area a lack of direction as to where do I go with this now nearly got me to drop it all a number of times.

My son is flying for EasyJet in a 737 and was doing so at the age of 22. He is just 23 Straight into flying at 16 and onto a career.

It is expensive to fly as a PPL and hence maybe some truth in the fact that many take up aviation later in life.

The young ones either get sidetracked by other life interferances or make a career in aviation and see the PPL as purely an enroute stepping stone.

Pace

[gpn01]

I remember it being described a while a go as a triangle with three points - Time, Money and Enthusiasm. When you're young, you have lots of Time and Enthusiasm but no Money. When you get a bit older, you have the Money but not the Time. Eventually you have the Time and the Money but have lost the Enthusiasm!

Intersting statistical note is that, whilst GA activity is decreasing, helicoptering, microlighting and parachuting have all been growing.

[flybymike]

I'm not fussy. Put me down for some old wreckage of a female, single or otherwise.....

[cats_five]

Given most men in the GA scene are married or have partners, what's wrong with married women? The requirement for women to be single sort of hints at looking for a date (or something like one!), but I can suggest some much better places for that than a flying club!

[Molesworth 1]

Given that just about every other activity is dominated by the young what harm GA being dominated by oldies?

[AC-DC]

Why do women have to be young and single? Whats wrong with women who are not single and/or not young?

and...

what's wrong with married women? The requirement for women to be single sort of hints at looking for a date (or something like one!),

Do we really need it at the club too? Don't we spend time in the club to have a deserved rest? Isn't it enough to have it at home? Nag Nag Nag :}

[IO540]

Only married women nag :)

[tmmorris]

If I could, with a permit aircraft, fly at night and in IMC, I'd do it tomorrow. These artificial restrictions keep me in spamcans and thereby put up my costs, as well as making me fly dinosaurs.

Tim

[Rod1]

I learned to fly gliders at 24, converted to power at 30 and am now 48. If we want to change the balance we need to keep a higher % of the pilots who pass and then fade away. The key to this is to get to them during the training and educate them that there are many options other than hire an expensive clapped out spam can from a dilapidated ex WW 2 airfield. The micro guys have managed this, and the rest of GA needs to follow ASAP.

Rod1

[englishal]

The only way IMHO, is to BUY BUY BUY. If you rely on renting then of course you gradually fade away as it becomes too much hassle. When you own, or own a share, you can use your plane like you would a car pretty much - i.e. when you want, for as long as you want, and no one is going to run up to you and give you a bollocking for walking across the apron with a baseball hat on, or give you a bollocking if you arrive back 1 few minutes late - or don't fly...etc.....

[Genghis the Engineer]

If I could, with a permit aircraft, fly at night and in IMC, I'd do it tomorrow. These artificial restrictions keep me in spamcans and thereby put up my costs, as well as making me fly dinosaurs.

Tim

Yes but:

(1) Buy a share in a syndicate aeroplane with a private CofA and you'll get your flying for half the hourly price if you fly any kind of decent rate, and

(2) For the majority of PPLs (legal) night and IMC are something which happen to other people - so an aircraft on a PtF can probably meet all of their requirements.

G

[Human Factor]

I'm mid 30s. I learned to fly at 17 and joined the airlines at 23. There are plenty of chaps (and a few chapesses) at my club in the 25-40 bracket. Quite a few more "experienced" (ahem!) members as well. I even met Mrs HF in the private flying world.

[DenhamPPL]

32.

Passed my skills test in 2006. Wanted to learn to fly since age 8 but didn't have the funds.

No wife, kids or mortgage. I guess being gay helps.

DenhamPPL

[Fuji Abound]

Only married women nag


Which reminds me of the Indian wife called "three horses" .. .. ..

That is an unusual name the the bloke said to the husband, where does it come from?

Sorry, you know what is coming, "nag, nag, nag".

Hat, coat.

[vee-tail-1]

Spent most of my life flying BOAC/BA all over the World, but not Europe.
Being divorced, on retirement from BA I bought a Robin ATL intending to gently explore Europe. Only one trip to Britanny then I met a French lady and now we have an 11 year old child. Result most of BA pension goes on family, not much left for flying, and she won't fly with me in case our son is orphaned.
Women or aeroplanes.. make your choice.. can't have both :*

[Genghis the Engineer]

32.

Passed my skills test in 2006. Wanted to learn to fly since age 8 but didn't have the funds.

No wife, kids or mortgage. I guess being gay helps.

DenhamPPL

I'm pretty certain that in this liberal modern world, it's actually legal for gay people to buy houses! (And I suspect that a great many have found ways to have families as well).

:}

G

[Juno78]

I'm 31, and have just started working towards my PPL this year. It's the first point in my life where I've actually been able to afford to, and given that I a) have a reasonably well paid job (I'm a solicitor), b) am not married (the average cost of a wedding would be enough to put both people through the PPL!) and c) don't have children and have no intention to, I can imagine that many people would get a lot later in life before they would be in a position to be able to afford to learn to fly.

Having said that, my club seems to have a reasonable amount of people my sort of age around - it doesn't seem to be particularly dominated by the over-50s.

[Cusco]

I was 48 before the demands of kids education,university , mortgage, weddings etc relaxed their grip on my (pretty good) NHS salary enough for me to be able to learn to fly.

16 years on my only regret is that my wife (whose pressie of a trial lesson got me hooked) steadfastly refuses to fly with me: Her antipathy is such that she never wishes me a good flight when I go to the airstrip or asks me how I got on when I return.

Her only slight showing of interest was when my grandson (8) had his first flight last month: She dragged herself to the strip with his mum: presumably to make sure I didn't kill us both...........

Aeroplanes every time.

Cusco:ugh:

[DenhamPPL]

I'm pretty certain that in this liberal modern world, it's actually legal for gay people to buy houses! (And I suspect that a great many have found ways to have families as well).Yes we have the same choices:rolleyes: Am not into marriage (to either sex).
Mortgage paid off. Children too expensive and noisy.

Flying much more fun:ok:

[Pilot DAR]

Children too expensive and noisy

Yeah, but the expense and noise is worth it! You don't hear the kid "noise" in the video, but the cheers of glee following the maneuver were worth every penny of the cost of the plane, the kid, and the bear!

Family :: Mr. Bear flies! video by PilotDAR - Photobucket (http://s381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Family/?action=view&current=MrBearFlies.flv)

Pilot DAR

[Lew747]

Well I think i'll bring a bit of youth into the system :E

Successfully passed my Skills test today, age 18 :):)

[Pilot DAR]

Nice going Lew,

You are now another stage along to a life long association with some great people, and a fascinting pastime. Aspire to be an old pilot one day...

Pilot DAR

[J.A.F.O.]

I tend to come across people in GA who fit into three groups:

1. Young and working towards a career in aviation
2. People who work in IT
3. Retired folk

No, I'm none of the above but would happily be 3. tomorrow if I had the money to run a wife, three kids, two dogs, a horse and an Aviat Husky without working. At the moment I work (not in IT) and just about fund everything but the Husky:{

[mary meagher]

Back in WWII, when every US armed service had its own little airforce (Navy, Army, Marines, Coast Guard, etc) some of those pilots who were lucky and careful enough to survive may still be flying today!

I met a remarkable gentleman in Bend, Oregon, last year. He flew the Pawnee tow plane for the local gliding club. To be a pilot, you do not have to be tall. I think he was a bit shorter than he used to be, (we do shrink when we get older, something to do with gravity). He used to fly from an aircraft carrier in the Pacific.

It was a bit disconcerting: the Pawnee appeared to be without a pilot altogether; when he flew it you couldn't see him at all at all. Evidently not a problem. View from a taildragger improves when you get it up on the step, so to speak.

He is an inspiration to us all. Keep on keeping on! you too can aspire to become a member of the UFO's!

[The Fenland Flyer]

Thought I'd chip in: I've wanted to fly since I was a child, I have a job I love but it doesn't have high pay attached. It's only in the past couple of years I have been able to afford to fly. I chose microlights (I'm learning in a C-42) because it is just so much cheaper. I love the aircraft and don't feel I am missing out on much; I reckon once I have my license I will be able afford to do twice as many flying hours as in most GA aircraft, which is just as well as I'm addicted!
I had planned to get the house/mortgage thing sorted out before I started flying (I'm still living with my parents) but then I worked out how old I would be before I would actually have paid off the mortgage! Not Good! So I decided to get my priorities right and follow my dreams first :) (plus I won't reach retirement age until 68! I couldn't wait that long untill flying!)

[jonkil]

I am 42 y/o, got married 20 years ago, left school at 14, worked like a dog, built my house and mortgage paid & gone, 2 kids, one at Uni, the other next year, fly C42 from my own strip...... I believe people get to tied up in school/learning/job to make real dough and end up old before their time.
One life...... live it.

[Heliport]

DenhamPPL Am not into marriage (to either sex).
You can't marry someone of the same sex, in the UK anyway. You can register a civil partnership with someone of the same sex but that is not a marriage.

[Genghis the Engineer]

DenhamPPL
You can't marry someone of the same sex, in the UK anyway. You can register a civil partnership with someone of the same sex but that is not a marriage.

I suspect that's like telling a microlight pilot that they can't hold a real PPL because they only fly microlights.

G

[Heliport]

:confused:

Or perhaps like telling a bus driver they can't hold a CPL if they only drive a bus.

The use of analogies when a statement of fact is already clear often serves to create confusion rather than increase clarity. The 'analogies' rarely truly are.

Anyway, back to the topic ................. ;)

[DenhamPPL]

You can't marry someone of the same sex, in the UK anyway. You can register a civil partnership with someone of the same sex but that is not a marriage.Oh dear I think you're taking what I said a little too literally:hmm:

Anyway thankfully due to my lack of marriage/kids/people carrier/school fees I can afford to fly loads (weather permitting..).

And no I don't wear a pink headset;)

[Piper19]

I learned to fly at 16, I was the youngest in the club back then. Now I'm 28 and still the youngest.
The few young guys that made it to the club now fly the big stuff and don't really fly in GA anymore.
This has always be my weak point in the club, very difficult to get through these old barnstromers. Also difficult to get in their club, e.g. I'm really keen on flying old airplanes, but most teachers I know on them are as old as the plane and don't want to teach me. Then who's to fly these things in 20 years?