The Job Of A Engineer

[JamieMac]

Hi guys.

I do not want to make this sound rude but what is the role of aircraft engineer? what sort of jobs do they do?

Also what is the difference between a aircraft engineer, a aircraft mechanic and a aircraft technician?

Thanks for your time

Jamie

[Miles Gustaph]

Licensed engineers can through professional qualification and development gain approvals from an approved maintenance organization (145) to certify work carried out to an aircraft, its components and whole aircraft, subject to the approved capabilities of the approved maintenance organization.

Whether a licensed engineer turns spanners depends on trade, fixed wing, rotary wing and many other factors of the industry.

Technician or mechanics generally do turn spanners and may gain certification privileges from their maintenance organization. These however are usually confined to limited or simple tasks, normally associated with line work.

I have generalized...

[Genghis the Engineer]

And the terminology changes enormously between country and organisation.

What is called a licenced engineer in the UK (highly trained and qualified) might well be called a mechanic in the US, whilst the term mechanic in the UK implies probably unskilled where aircraft are concerned.

The other term you may have come across is "aeronautical engineer" or "aerospace engineer" which tends to imply graduates (university trained) rather than skilled (apprenticeship + college trained). There's no real standard job for an aeronautical engineer, it's more about having the skill set that can then be used for a wide variety of jobs.

The UK Engineering council would admit what in the aircraft industry we call licenced engineers as "engineering technicians" into its national register, whilst it tends to restrict the term "engineer" to graduates only - a restriction which is certainly not recognised within the aircraft industry.

G

[JamieMac]

thanks, i have always been uncertain on what the difference was. If i wanted to actually fix the aircraft (e.g turn spanners, replace parts) which would i be? Aircraft mechanic?

How would i become one of these?

[Genghis the Engineer]

thanks, i have always been uncertain on what the difference was. If i wanted to actually fix the aircraft (e.g turn spanners, replace parts) which would i be? Aircraft mechanic?

How would i become one of these?

In the UK, that's what we call a licenced engineer, or a ground engineer.

Loads of threads here on that - just do a search, but in a nutshell, one of...

- College JAR-66 course
- Apprenticeship with an aircraft operator or maintenance company
- Join one of the services as an aircraft ground engineer.

All good valid routes, and there's loads of information here, just have a trawl and use the search function.

G

[Miles Gustaph]

Jamie,
I would suggest that if you actually want to get dirty and work on aircraft that your going to want to aim to become licensed.

If you go to the CAA website and look up the ELGD, engineers licensing guidance document it gives you most of the info your looking for.

I my get hunted down by your mother for suggesting this, but you could join the military to get the experience and sit your exams, a lot of engineers in the industry are ex-military... it pays better than an apprenticeship, that's if you can get one.

Good luck

[JamieMac]

thanks guy for your replies.

Is the military a good route to go down?

i recently seen a apprenticeship with ryanair at prestwick airport.

Does this pay well as a job? What sort of wage does a engineer bring home?

Thanks

Jamie

[spannersatcx]

Is the military a good route to go down?

No.

It used to be, but if you want to work on civil aircraft within EASA (possibly other states as well) then for the purpose of becoming a Licenced Engineer within EASA military stuff is not recognised anymore.

I did 12 years in the RAF many years ago and when I gained my first licence in 1989 training and experience was recognised, these days it's not, so if your ultimate aim is to be a LAE in the civil world then the military is not the way to go, in my opinion.

There are apprenticeships out there, but they are few and far between, what with the economic downturn and all that. Unfortunately a lot of airlines do not look at investing in the future as the beans counters can only see this years profits and maybe next years.

When the old farts like me start retiring in a few years, there will be gaps that can not be filled due to a lack of investment, what will happen is the big players will pressure the CAA and EASA into believeing the highly qualified/experience engineer is not necessary and is a burden on their profits so will dumb down the knowledge and experience needed to work on and certify highly complex aircraft, that's until the first incident anyway.

Earnings would depend on what licence and type ratings you hold, where you are and what shifts you do, a rough ball park figure at this time for say a B1 with a couple of types with shift pay would be around £45K give or take.

[JamieMac]

thanks very much for the last post spannersatcx.

would i apply to a airline direct or are there companys that do the maintainence for them? like a sub contract?

I know i sound very picky and stuff but it would be mechanical stuff e.g engines, landing gear that sort of thing that i would want to work on. Is that a b2 engineer? or do u get b1 and b2?

I am currently a apprentice vehicle technician, would this be a advantage to applying to a company or would it not matter?

thanks for your time people, it is very much appreciated

[JamieMac]

thanks very much for the last post spannersatcx.

would i apply to a airline direct or are there companys that do the maintainence for them? like a sub contract?

I know i sound very picky and stuff but it would be mechanical stuff e.g engines, landing gear that sort of thing that i would want to work on. Is that a b2 engineer? or do u get b1 and b2?

I am currently a apprentice vehicle technician, would this be a advantage to applying to a company or would it not matter?

thanks for your time people, it is very much appreciated

[TURIN]

Just to add (and I know I'm going to get abuse for this) it would help if you could locate the letter 'n' on your keyboard. :ok:

a advantage

a apprentice

a engineer

a aircraft engineer, a aircraft mechanic and a aircraft technician?



There is a serious point to this.

You will be doing a hell of a lot of writing when you become an LAE. Being able to communicate effectively with others in your field (and aircrew:}) will be vital to your role.

The pen is often mightier than the spanner.

Best of luck and don't let the miserable old gits like me get you down!:ok:

[JamieMac]

TURIN - thanks for your input into my thread. Yes once i read it i understand what you mean, my mistake.

Thanks for the luck aswell :)

[JamieMac]

The pen is often mightier than the spanner

I said earlier on in the thread i think, that i was wanting to get my hands dirty and actually work on the aircraft. Would i be doing this a engineer?

[Hand Shandy]

Manning levels are generally slashed to the bone on line stations Jaime , so you can have your hand down a toilet trying to get a nappy out of a dump valve one minute to trying to fix an autopilot the next . Of course, you could wear gloves .:eek:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just coming back to the point of the military.

Joining the military is an excellent route - if what you want to spend at-least a major part of your career in uniform working on military aeroplanes (and why not, many people have had no regrets about such a career route).

But, don't do it as a route to a civil career - do it because a job in uniform or with military aircraft is what you want, no other reason.


Also echoing TURIN's point: few engineers manage to avoid a lot of written communications during their career: as well as the technical work which is our bread and butter. Your written English will be important: so capital "I", "an" before a vowel, don't separate sentence clauses with commas... Sadly modern school education is shockingly bad in this regard so to some extent you can blame your school teachers, but ultimately an employer doesn't care about that and you need to get your written English sorted out.

G

[boeing_eng]

There is some useful info on the various License types and the various paths into the Industry at:

Aircraft Engineering introductory year, foundation degree FdEng and top-up year BSc(Hons) - Course Information - Undergraduate Students - Kingston University London (http://www.kingston.ac.uk/aircraftengineering/misc3.html)

The Military route is not mentioned, but echoing what others have said, (I'm ex RAF myself!) the merits of going this way these days are limited. There are now no exemptions from the EASA exams for military training and the quality of Forces training is not what it once was.

As I've mentioned to other youngsters, it’s a demanding, rewarding and varied career (but don't expect it to be easy or a path to rapid riches!)

[Miles Gustaph]

Guys,
it's mentioned a few times here that military time doesn't get you exam exemptions these days, but don't forget the lad is just 18 and needs his 4 and a bit years to even become licensed.

Time in the military would teach him to drink, socialize and fix aircraft, and if he was dedicated as with any route into the industry, he could sit his exams then gain a restricted license until he gets his 12 months commercial experience.

There are still people coming out of the Senior service, the Army and the other lot who enter the commercial world down the license route.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Why this mentality that the military is only useful as a route to a civil aircraft career? Isn't anybody allowed to want a career in the RAF / Army / Navy any more?

G

[mitzy69]

a stewardess once asked a friend what was the difference between a mechanic and an engineer as if it did not matter and just splitting hairs.
His reply was about £10,000 a year.

[spannersatcx]

To answer an earlier question, B1 is mechanically orientated, although these days it does involve a lot more on the avionics side. B2 is avionic (electrical) orientated. There's nothing to stop you gaining both, except a lot of hard work and studying and exams.....to get both. People tend to start off as one and may gain the other later.

There are or were seperate maintenance organisations that offer apprenticeships, not sure these days though, Monarch do, not sure about Thomas Cook etc, Virgin do, no idea about BA (doubt it).

BAMC certainly used skilled people from different areas, vehicle mechanics etc, that is a BA subsiduary in Cardiff.

If all you want to do is work on aircraft, I would try the civil route first rather than the military but that's just my opinion.

[JamieMac]

Thanks everyone for your help, things are becoming much clearer now.:ok:

the lad is just 18 and needs his 4 and a bit years to even become licensed.


does this mean there is a age limit on it?


i have never ruled out the opiton of military but if i could get into civil avation that would a bonus. The only problem i have is i stay in scotland and there aint many avation engineering courses around up here which means i would have to move.

Another question i have is, are there many jobs available once i would be qualified or is it like airline pilots at the minute where the pilots are actually paying to sit in the cockpit?

Thanks

Jamie :)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thanks everyone for your help, things are becoming much clearer now.:ok:



does this mean there is a age limit on it?


i have never ruled out the opiton of military but if i could get into civil avation that would a bonus. The only problem i have is i stay in scotland and there aint many avation engineering courses around up here which means i would have to move.

Another question i have is, are there many jobs available once i would be qualified or is it like airline pilots at the minute where the pilots are actually paying to sit in the cockpit?

Thanks

Jamie :)

No age limit - it's just a slow tough route to qualify (as any kind of Engineer to be honest, particularly in aviation).

You could try Bristow Helicopters in Aberdeen to see if they're planning any apprenticeships in the future, or I'm certain that several of the Scottish HE colleges do aircraft maintenance courses.

G

[JamieMac]

</title> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/_layouts/1033/styles/core.css?rev=5msmprmeONfN6lJ3wtbAlA%3D%3D"/> <title> (http://www.perth.ac.uk/courses/Pages/SearchResults.aspx?Search=aircraft) - will any of these be the type of courses that would be useful? as this is only 18 miles away from my house.

[Geezer7348]

Jamie,

Those courses may be quite suitable for you but remember they do not provide you with an EASA Licence, however, AST is based at Perth College and you may be able to do your EASA Exams alongside your College course although this would be classed as a self improver/modular route and you would be required to show at least 5yrs of relevant documented experience. :ok:.

[ivor toolbox]

i have never ruled out the opiton of military but if i could get into civil avation that would a bonus. The only problem i have is i stay in scotland and there aint many avation engineering courses around up here which means i would have to move.

Another question i have is, are there many jobs available once i would be qualified or is it like airline pilots at the minute where the pilots are actually paying to sit in the cockpit?

AST (at Perth Aerodrome) should be ok. Like Mr Spanners, I used their services myself many moons ago, they are part 147 approved to train and conduct their own examinations, so you'll end up with a 'frozen' licence that just needs you to add in the practical experience (and be over 21) before it will be issued.

more info...look here...

Air Service Training (AST) :: Approved Category B Basic Course (http://airservicetraining.co.uk/approvedcatbbasic.html)

or why not write to Loganair

Careers :: Engineers - Loganair (http://www.loganair.co.uk/careers/engineers)

Services :: Engineering - Loganair (http://www.loganair.co.uk/services/engineering)

Alex Williamson (the engineering boss-man) is pretty approachable
(I used to work with him a few years back....its' a small world);

and Mr Genghis, its IEng that we're eligible for,upon joining the RAES.

http://www.raes.org.uk/cms/uploaded/files/GCAA1.pdf


Section 6.3.2 of the Incorporated Engineer chapter of the Engineering Council's Standards and
Routes to Registration, 3rd Edition (SARTOR 3) which is now replaced by UK-SPEC, authorises the
Royal Aeronautical Society to assess licensed aircraft maintenance engineers for Incorporated
Engineer registration through a special alternative route, recognising that their formation does not
follow the standard model cited elsewhere in SARTOR/UK-SPEC.
The special route to registration continues for appropriately experienced licensed aircraft maintenance
engineers holding Category B1, B2 or C JAR-66 licences to register as Incorporated Engineers.
This route has been maintained, not withstanding the increased educational standard of an ordinary
degree, on the basis of the final outputs, i.e. equating a JAR-66 Cat B1 or Cat B2 licence holder who
has held authorisations for typically three years with a graduate of an ordinary degree with three
years’ appropriate Initial Professional Development. This does not mean to say that the licence is
equivalent to a three-year degree, but that the nature of acquiring and applying authorisations meets
the same professional output standards as Incorporated Engineers who have achieved their
registration by other routes.


(thats' if there's a proposer and seconder locally,which is why I'm not registered yet)

Job availability depends very much on the market forces,but as someone esle has said, there's not many youngsters out there to replace us old gits when we retire shortly.

ttfn

[Miles Gustaph]

Jamie,

sorry for the ambiguity, with "the lad is just 18 and needs his 4 and a bit years to even become licensed." If you give the CAA ELGD a looking over you will see that there are a number of options/routes into becoming an engineer.

While there are exceptions to the rule, special courses, apprenticeships etc, there is a requirement to demonstrate four and a half years experience on aircraft and be over 21 years old. Like I said there are exceptions, some courses require less practice experience, list options go on.... coming back to my original post, to clarify... were you to decide for any number of reasons to go down the military route you would get your time on spanners, however due to changes in the regulatory standard when coming into the commercial sector from the military as well as having passed all your exams you would need one years experience from the commercial sector.

As for your question about availability of jobs... well I don't know any licensed engineers who are out of work that are willing to move about, and that is something that you may want to consider if you want to enter the Helicopter world.

Aberdeen is "fairly" stable a place to work with it's cycles of people moving hangars, changing overalls and the occasional cycle like we have just seen where people have been made redundant, but it is probably the most stable market of size in the UK. However moving job normally means moving house as a helicopter engineer, or working away from home. This may sound a bit like the "you should start a pensions" lecture, and at 17 it may not mean a lot to you but at some stage in your life you may meet someone nice you want to live with; all this means you may end up working away from home, or moving home with every job change.

All that aside, its not a bad job and can be a great deal of fun.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Ivor, I stand corrected and education (and think it's entirely appropriate by the way).

G

[ivor toolbox]

Ivor, I stand corrected and education (and think it's entirely appropriate by the way).


Thanks, yes,after all these years, we are now officially entitled to call ourselves 'Engineers'...once registered of course....

ttfn

[Alber Ratman]

As others have said Jamie, read the Engineers Licence Guide Document on the CAA website. This tells you the basic requirements and the routes to gain an "A", "B1" or "B2" AMEL. For the "B" tickets, that allow you to issue Certify Release to Service certificates in the tech log of an aircraft or base maintenance CRS (WITH the correct aircraft type ratings and company approval from the quality department of the PART 145 organisation you work for), it is going to take you 5 years of experience proof, including passing all the theroretical exams (17 for a B1, a couple less for B2) before the CAA will think about issuing a ticket, if you take the exams via self study. If you did a full time 147 course like the ones advertised by AST, LRTT, KLM Tech College, etc (two years in length) the minimum requirement of experience is two years working in a PART 145 organisation. The CAA do exempt experience time off for persons who have a suitable and proven record of military aircraft experience, but they still must do a year minimum, working within a PART 145 enviroment. The "A" licence is less time, but is limited on what task can be certified, and is only for self certification of these tasks(the ELGD specifies this). Some MROs seem to be starting schemes where experienced tradesmen from other sectors (such as motor mechanics) have been introduce at positions below mechanic and will receive OJT as well as oppertunities to study in a 147 based enviroment (night school). They have no time exemption.

As an afterthough, the military will soon have leased aircraft that require 145 maintenance. While 5 Sqn are sorted, Air Tanker will invariably require military licenced guys as well. If they are all seniors remains to be seen.