British Airways Regional merge with CitiExpress [Archive]

R308R

5th Oct 2001, 15:48

BA has just announced it will merge its BAR (A319BHX and 737MAN) into CitiExpress (the company created by the merger of Brymon and BRAL)according to BBC Cefax.

An announcement has been due today for the last week or so following a complete stratergy and route structure review by high level management.

Cannot comment on fine details because I do not currently know! However well over a year ago BA started a major review of its regional operations with aim of taking what BA had, comparing it with how it would ideally be and then obviously trying to get as close to that position. I belive the result of this work is todays announcement and all the recent drama has generated an ideal opertunity to action this plan. :eek:
BA will say this shows commitment to the regions and I guess it does unless you are currently on BA terms and conditions.

Ceefax suggests that the jobs that will go will be mainly management and support.

I think that there will be a substational, poss complete removal of the A319 route from BHX following a comment by a senior BAR manager. It is possible BA pilots could end up flying the RJ as CitiExpress are short of pilots, may take on new work but cannot recruite due to BA recruitment freeze.

Will hopefully have more news later following when I come back from work!!!!! :mad: :confused: :mad:

Hand Solo

5th Oct 2001, 16:16

Complete removal of the A319 from BHX seems a bit harsh given that the operation makes a profit. Which BACE aircraft would take over the FCO/BCN/BHX routes which regularly carry 100+ pax? Even the BRU is doing well at the moment. As for the BAR 319 pilots, its worth pointing out that BAR does not employ any pilots as such. All the flight crew are on BA mainline contracts and are on some sort of loan or lease arrangement to BAR. There's no way in the world in can see BA forcing Airbus qualified guys, many of whom are well up the BA master seniority list, to retrain as RJ pilots, esepcially when we're still buying lots of new A319s.

manx long tail

5th Oct 2001, 16:25

Why on earth would any BAR pilots be moving direct onto our RJ (don't know if you mean the Embraer 145 or the Bae 146 fleet). I've been here a couple of years with a jet bid in and I'm still waiting so this would be unwelcome. Surely it means that the 737 and 319 pilots will continue flying their existing type under new management, and we continue expanding as we already are. (True we do need pilots, but we've NEVER taken anyone direct onto a jet. Why start now?)

R308R

5th Oct 2001, 16:27

BA pilots who fly for BAR are employed by BA but work to a BAR schedualing agreement.

Removal of the A319? Big question mark. A key BAR manager stated recently that he did not want any A319's, just a fleet of RJ's.
The A319's would move to London where they are urgently needed, many of the pilots would go with them.

I cannot see the A319's being wholey absorbed into the BAR / BACE merger because getting BA crews to downgrade terms and conditions would be tricky, and the A319 is too big for most routes. I do agree that at prime times the A319 is pretty full but I guess this is not always enough.

What is fact is that the passengers I fly love the comfort and space of the A319 cabin and are always glad that they are on an airbus instead of an RJ!!!

The Guvnor

5th Oct 2001, 16:44

Very interesting - it ties in with a whisper I heard recently to the effect that BA was going to bundle its regional operations together in order to sell them off. :eek: :eek:

Maersk, which has a cash rich parent, was mentioned as a possible purchaser.

Gaza

5th Oct 2001, 17:19

From BA press site:-

Regional Network changes

British Airways today announced that it is to combine its two UK regional subsidiaries, creating the second largest regional airline operation in Europe.

British Airways Regional (BAR) is to become part of the newly formed British Airways CitiExpress, creating a single entity for its short-haul regional domestic and European network.

The combined regional business will have a turnover in excess of £600 million and a fleet of 92 aircraft serving more than 120 routes. The new entity will employ around 3,200 people and carry some five million passengers each year.

The airline also confirmed a number of capacity, frequency and route changes. In the current economic climate, the integration of BAR with British Airways CitiExpress will also help safeguard the future of regional flying and ensure a more flexible and co-ordinated approach to services.

David Evans, British Airways’ General Manager, UK Business, said, “Harnessing the strengths and route networks of British Airways’ CitiExpress and BAR under the control of a single operating unit will put our regional operation in a stronger position at a time of economic downturn and increased competition.”

“This move is imperative to protect the future of our operation in the UK regions and will ensure that our routes can become viable by achieving a better balance between capacity and demand in what is one of the most competitive and de-regulated aviation environments in the world.”

The synergies resulting from the integration, along with the tactical capacity reductions and network changes, will mean the regional business will employ around two hundred fewer people in the future.

Over the coming weeks British Airways will be consulting with trade union representatives regarding the integration of BAR staff with the British Airways’ CitiExpress business.

Notes to Editors:

Network Changes effective October 27, 2001:

Suspension of Manchester to Bristol and Newcastle to Oslo daily services.

Manchester to Amsterdam services will downsize from Boeing B737-500s to Embraer 145s - frequency unchanged at five per weekday.

Flights from Manchester to Shannon and Stansted will reduce by one daily frequency with Manchester to Londonderry services switching to franchisee Loganair.

As previously announced, Belfast flights from Cardiff, Aberdeen and Manchester will be consolidated at Belfast City Airport.

Glasgow to Cork services will move to bigger aircraft - Dash 8s - to meet demand on weekdays.

Edinburgh to Belfast services lose a daily frequency Monday to Thursday.

Birmingham to Glasgow and Edinburgh services reduce by one per day to seven weekday flights.

Off peak flights from Birmingham to Dusseldorf and Frankfurt downsize from Airbus 319 to Embraer 145s.

British Airways CitiExpress: Formed earlier this year following the acquisition of the British Regional Air Lines Group and the integration of that business with the West Country wholly-owned subsidiary, Brymon Airways.

British Airways Regional: British Airways Regional has a fleet of 10 Boeing 737-500 based at Manchester and 9 Airbus A319 based at Birmingham. It operates14 routes to Scotland and Europe from Manchester, as well as New York. From Birmingham it operates 12 routes to Scotland and Europe. BAR has a turnover of £284 million, employs 1,008 people, carries 2.2 million passengers and operates a fleet of 19 aircraft to 25 destinations.

British Regional Air Lines Group: The group constitutes British Regional Airlines (a British Airways franchise partner since 1995) and Manx Airlines. Manx Airlines operates in its own colours between the Isle of Man and major airports in the UK, Channel Islands and Ireland. BRAL serves regional and UK hub airports throughout the British Isles and Continental Europe from its main base at Manchester. The network includes routes to Berlin, Hanover, Lyon and Nice. BRAL has a turnover of £228 million, employs 1,469 people, carries 2.6 million passengers annually with its fleet of 51 aircraft on 70 routes.

Brymon Airways: West Country based Brymon operates UK and European routes to such cities as Dublin, Frankfurt, Munich and Paris from its biggest base at Bristol. Brymon has a turnover of £120 million, employs just 778 people and carries 1 million passengers each year on services to 22 destinations with a fleet of 22 aircraft.

Taken together, the network changes announced today will release three aircraft from the BAR fleet to British Airways mainline - two Manchester based B737’s and one Birmingham Airbus A319 - in addition to the previously announced move of four B737-500s to London operations.

PAXboy

5th Oct 2001, 17:49

It seems that the insurance problem for Manx has been sorted now?

My mother says that Manx Radio announced this morning that the UK govt has relented (or, in her words, "someone kicked Gordon Brown in the a***!") They have at last said Manx can be covered by its parent company's arrangements.

Naturally, it will take two or three days to get the schedules back to normal but it's on the way. Residents are still anxious as to what BA will do in the long run. They
ditched the Island in (about) 1983, saying that the population was too small to sustain a commercially viable service and they might do so again.

Stelios

5th Oct 2001, 20:11

All these arrangements are great, but how's BA going to make sure that easyJet doesn't end up poaching ALL it's customers for instance?

whine

5th Oct 2001, 21:07

More chief pilots - that should cover all the questions/problems

MarkD

5th Oct 2001, 23:23

Good news for EICK - I was afraid the Glasgow service would go the way of the Gatwick. That J41 is a bit cramped when you're over 6ft!

As for the IOM - so they get all the benefits of the UK but still have that handy tax regime - no change there then. :D

R308R

5th Oct 2001, 23:53

Latest news, gossip and rumours from BHX... sorry if the posting gets a bit long!

Firstly thanks for all the constructive postings on this sensitive subject.

For BAR staff a large Q/A briefing has been produced and distributed to most staff (eventually!) This contains lots of info which suggests that some BAR Staff will have to make further big concessions with terms and conditions. It appears that the model for most staff groups will be the current BRAL terms and conditions. Of course Unions have to get involved with these discussions to agree the details of merging in staff but reading the info there does not look like there is much flexibility as the current BACE cost base must be maintained.

It is possible, and I guess logical that BHX cabin crew could fly all / most / or combinations of A/C.

As for the 737's and 319's. Their position remains under constant review, but for the time being they remain with the reductions in hulls of 2 737's and 1 319. However they look like they will be replaced with quote " second generation regional jets" within 2 - 3 years.
It appears that BACE wants to have a stand alone position.

Immediate crew are dealt with in the internal briefings. Long term no facts, but I belive current BA flight crew will probably have to move to fortress heathrow or take up BACE terms and conditions. No news on how this will work, when etc.

Bigger routes? Some BHX routes do enjoy good loads on the 319. Indeed the BHX operation has been making good money. It is possible that BACE could wet lease a 319 / 318 etc from BA to operate these, but again this is speculation.

So were does this leave things. Very similar to the idea that I heard discussed a long time ago and I think that this was all very inevitable over time. BA will own a company which is effectively Europes largest regional airline with a very low cost base and a low staff to hulls ratio. The operation will generate a substantial turnover, will be lean, mean and flexible enough to adapt quickly, which will help it take advantage of a steep recovery in the industry whenever that comes.

Selling the new outfit to Mearsk?? I think mearsk would love the oppertunity of purchasing it and as we all know everything has its price and to save LHR I think it would go. BA do state that they have no intentions of selling the new outfit and I have no reason of disputing that.

Transition is difficult, whatever the longterm benefits... Good luck to everyone involved, keep smiling and safe flying. :p

Hand Solo

6th Oct 2001, 00:50

Why is it that the more I read about this merger the more it looks like a complete sell out to BACE? Everyone involved forced to move to BACE T&Cs or lose their job (flight crew possibly excepted)? Doesn't sound like a merger to me. I trust our senior management figures won't be moving to BACE terms. :mad: Very bad news for our cabin crews and ground staff, as it almost certainly means they'll be worse off. Will the last BA pilot out please turn off the lights? Another happy base bites the dust. :(

Bluelabel

6th Oct 2001, 01:53

Sorry, but I am very confused.

BA had a low cost Airline, called GO, and recently flogged it off.

Now it is combining two of its other low cost airlines, and presumably reducing their costs, to form another low cost airline.

Does the BA management really know what it is doing?

What will their next move be?

:confused: null

bertieb

6th Oct 2001, 02:05

Guys you all sound a bit surprised by this development,but if you've been in the regions for more than 5 mins you could see this has been on the cards for a long time.
Why do you think so much work has been franchised out in the past!All part of good old uncle Bob's plan for a virtual BA.Why pay me more money with better terms & conditions than somebody at BRAL ,the outfit is run by accountants thats all they see.Not larger more comfortable aircraft operated to the best of BA's high standards with excelent cabin service and the best engineering available.Nope lets fly around in ATP's that specialise in wheels up landings!cos they are cheaper who cares what people think.
Ok so i'm anoyed that they hatchet has finally fallen on real BA in manchester but good luck to the BACE guys enjoy being shaftedc time and again by Mr. Evans and crew , hope you can get on the seniority list and i'll see on the 777!!!!! :mad: :mad:

-------------------------------------------
Cat eats the last pidgeon!

R308R

6th Oct 2001, 02:13

The BAR / BACE merger will not create a low cost airline in the same sence as Easyjet or Go. As far as I am aware the company will still offer a high spec product for the domestic / euro travellor and the business travellor who wants a high quality service is still the target at BHX.

The company will have a much lower cost base than at current.

Ticket Prices. There are currently many good deals on BA tickets from the regions, and without checking them all out, I have been informed that many are very comparable, to the no frills carriers.

I think Go was sold as it was no longer part of BA's overall stratergy. I also seem to recall that it had become a hurdle in the BA / KLM merger talks.

Fly Safely :cool:

Hand Solo

6th Oct 2001, 02:15

Call me a cynic but does anyone see the hand of Rod in this? I mean he does have a reputation for a "Sign this new contract or you're fired" approach to industrial realtions. How long before it becomes 'cost-effective' for BACE to take over all mainline shorthaul?

As for a 'high quality service', well I'm sorry but those words simply do not go with an EMB145. No offence to the Brymon crews but they are awful, cramped, unreliable flying cigar tubes and I would do my damndest to avoid travelling on one, just like many of our customers already do! They are many good deals available out of the regions, but strangely the only time you ever see them advertised is when Maersk are having a promotion on their routes. Cost saving idea there, lets get rid of the BAR marketing team who seemt o do virtually nothing anyway! The fact is, BA will never create a succesful low cost operation in-house because that requires a lean and responsive management structure which is alien to the company. The only way they see to cut costs is to attack the T&Cs of the front line staff, which is why GO pilots lagged behind Ryan and Easy in pay for quite some time. Despite BAR working their pilots harder than almost any others in BA, they are still burdened with a bloated management structure which cannot be justified and until that is dismantled BAR, and in turn BACE, will be doomed.

[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]

knows

6th Oct 2001, 02:56

Hand Solo.
Your postings always make a good deal of sense.
There are many out here who agree with you!

The Guvnor

6th Oct 2001, 03:31

Hand Solo - especially when taken in context with the following from an article in the current Fortune magazine:

The air traffic implosion is a particularly severe setback for British Airways, Europe's biggest airline by most measures. It gets only 25% of its revenue but all its profit from North American flights. (Its European operations lose money.) In the week after Sept. 11, BA watched its market capitalization plunge by 36%, or $1.6 billion. "We don't have many precedents for how things are going to unfold," says Andrew Sentance, chief economist for the airline. "But we are doing what we can to reduce manpower costs as quickly as possible and postpone capital spending." BA normally has $1.5 billion of cash on its balance sheet to meet ongoing obligations. That could dry up quickly.
"Bankruptcy isn't a possibility," says Martin Borghetto, an analyst with Morgan Stanley in London, "but if this North American downturn continues, the company will continue to have difficult times."

Dunno about you, but I'd take that to mean: "All those on European routes will henceforth come under BACE at BACE terms and conditions. BA Mainline will be long-haul only".

Comments?

Stelios

6th Oct 2001, 11:53

If BA is now almost only just a concept, then I don't see why there is a BA at all.

In other words, the franchise airlines have become the BA that BA used to be,with no expense, in fact only finacial gain for the BA management.
So why do BA struggle on and on paying their own staff the high wages they are accustomed to, just let the franchisees do the BA thing???

R308R

6th Oct 2001, 13:19

Hand Solo I agree with what you say and I think there are a number of intersting points.

1 The A319 provides a fantastic tool to provide a very high quality cabin product. I have flown on the emb145 and although the crew were very good it was very crampt. When BA introduced the A319 two years ago service perception soared. In short business customers generally love the airbus and don't like the emb145.

2 The A319 has been making profit on most routes from BHX.

3. If you are a passenger on an A319 your ticket price includes all weather operation meaning that we will get you to your destination even if its too foggy to find your way from the carpark!! The aeroplane has some of the most high tech and latest safety features like EGPWS and is technically very reliable.

The BA A319 also has SESSMA equipment which monitors the pilots flying, highlights any handling errors and enables any trends to be rectified. Using data from this system also shows that (as well as working harder in terms of no of sectors than any other BA pilots and making profit,) those pilots operating for BAR demonstrate some of the highest standards within a company where the meaning of high is very high.

I wish BA / BAR pushed some of these extras when marketing!!!

4. Will BACE cost base grow. I think it will over time because BA is a beurocratic company and most BA managers do like the nice hotels, the flush office and a bit of empire building. Having lots of managers the "Peter Principle" generally kicks in too which is great for generating extra costs. If they can resist this at BACE then fine but I watch with interest. I cannot see the management team (which will probably be the current BAR team plus the BA staff already seconded to BACE otherwise they wouldn't agree to merge) moving into a portacabin with last years PC and no IT department. More likely a new office development on the IOM where senior managers can enjoy watching every one working very hard whilst enjoying some personal tax benifits for their increased saleries and the lovely countryside. ouch....

5 Virtual BA..... I think the current announcment has taken the original concept being talked about some time ago about as far as initially planned. Prehaps BACE will merge with the Gatwick operation in the medium term but having two out of LHR euro and regional operations does make a lot of sence.

I think BA know that the unions are too strong at LHR and the cost / fear of a serious strike at any time would be too high. Remember that fleas don't kill cats and dogs because they would no have no more blood to suck!

The aviation world lives in exceptional and dynamic times at the moment and I do want it to be noted that I do appluade the decision by Rod and his team to take some cuts in pay themselves. If in years to come we look back and find that the only way we kept some kind of job was thanks to tough reductions in T and C then phew, but when they are gone they are gone and won't come back when the passengers do unlike all the office, admin and IT staff, of which BA has quite a few!!!
:(

Safe Flying

The Guvnor

6th Oct 2001, 13:45

A few years ago, I did my Masters thesis in Air Transport Management on the effects of franchising in European airlines.

In it, I said that there was a good case to be made for strong brands - such as BA, Lufthansa (and at the time, Swissair) franchising out <b>all</b> of their operations (cargo, regional, short/medium haul and long haul) to other companies, meaning that BA could downsize to about 20 people who would provide leased aircraft, manage the brand and quality control, and count the steady stream of cash.

No risks, no worries about declining markets, no passengers, no staff. Little in the way of expenditure; lots in the way of income.

We're talking management Utopia here, people! :D :D :D

Properly managed, this would well be the way of the future. I'm convinced that this was pretty much what Bob Ayling's Master Plan was, with the World Images and franchisees from Scandinavia to South Africa; and I suspect that Rod may have found a copy of it and has dusted it off.

Stelios

6th Oct 2001, 14:48

Guvnor,

This is exactly what I meant in my above posting, but without my "Masters thesis in Air Transport Management".

Love - Stelios

Kiltie

6th Oct 2001, 18:11

Manx Long Tail -

"....we have NEVER taken anyone direct on to a jet.........."

Not true. Two FOs outwith the company hired straight on to jet back in June.

Recover

6th Oct 2001, 19:19

Guvnor,

Bob Ayling was a **** too.

Big Nose

6th Oct 2001, 20:50

The 319 is an excellent aircraft and the passengers love it. However, its operating costs are v. high compared to an Embraer (which is CAT 2) and over the last year BAR BHX profits have declined by around 90 %. Used to be a cash cow but not any more. If it were your business you would do something about it. You would probably do exactly what BA are doing.

Lucky Angel

6th Oct 2001, 23:52

Well what can i say ....starting of R308R i think you are a sad spotter finding out things like EGPWS and whatever the other thing was but i think you havent done your homework quite well because wether you can get to your destination even if its too foggy to see where ur going depends on the destination field as well.Some airports are only Cat1 some up to Cat2 and some even Cat3...so do your homework better next time before you start talking astronomy..Yes the airbus is a great a/c but on routes where you only get 40 pax it will not do profit but a 50 seater jet will from something like 30% full...I think what they are trying to do makes sense and its good for the future..

buttonpusher

7th Oct 2001, 00:03

I'd just like to point out that I still work for Brymon as the merger with us and BRAL hasn't been completed yet! No new terms and conditions have been forwarded to us so the announcement on the 5th was our first idea what they would be. I feel sorry for the BAR crews (both flight and cabin)if indeed they have to accept lower terms & conditions. How will this work in the grand scheme of things, and how far will we allow ourselves to be pushed before making a stand?

Macman

7th Oct 2001, 18:19

Buttonpusher,

I hate to say this but your terms and conditions are so far below those enjoyed by BAR staff they are out of sight. Hopefully you will be brought up to their level and things will improve...i.e. no more phone calls on days off, no more phone calls when you are NOT on standby, no more tech logs full of deferred defects.... I could go on.... and I speak from personal experience. Anyone with an ounce of savvy could see this coming a mile off but I still feel sorry for the BAR cabin crew. Welcome to the wonderful world of 20 roster changes a month and Cabin Crew management who expect you to serve 50 hot meals in 30 minutes to 50 full fare suits....ON YOUR OWN because the No 2 went sick AGAIN. When you have finished the service you will not even be able to wash your hands as there will be no running water in the loo! If BAR bring their agreements and terms and conditions with them everyone will benefit.

Human Factor

7th Oct 2001, 19:29

Lucky Angel,

I think you'll find R308R has a pretty good idea what he's talking about!

As far as the route network from BHX goes, with the exception of some charter destinations and BCN, all the airfields are Cat 3 Autoland capable. The A319 can get in where Embraers cannot.

BTW, 2-3 years remaining for the A319 at Brum is pretty accurate according to the management. :rolleyes:

Barcli

7th Oct 2001, 19:42

to AIRFORCENONE and STABTRIM,
I dont really think you have an argument in justifying the 319 just because it has Cat 3 capability and teh Embraer doesnt , having flown both types , i can assure you that in five years I used Cat 3 in anger in the 319 once, - this will hardly justify its operating costs being above that of the 145.
As far as STABTRIMS comments about 20 rosta changes a month, being called constantly when not on standby - well the latter might happen occasionally , especially since manx was grounded, and we were providing cover, One C/crew ? - never, rostas are stable now and dont see any reason why they wont continue this way..

FlyboyUK

7th Oct 2001, 20:29

Ask the cabin crew in cardiff about stable rosters!!!

Macman

7th Oct 2001, 21:29

Barcli,

I flew many a sector at Brymon with one cabin crew down the back where I should have had two. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer - I have no experience of BRAL, never having worked for them and my comments were directed towards Brymon. I suspect you work for BRAL at SOU? Best of luck in the new outfit anyway.

R308R

7th Oct 2001, 23:17

When I posted this topic it was because I belive it to be important to many people and worthy of debate from all sides of the fence. I have endeavored to provide information and comment honestly based on fact and experience.

Lucky Angel ...... I would be careful calling me a sad spotter as you do not know who I am. I would hope that any one in my position does know exactly what EGPWS is all about, and the SESSMA philosophy.

Of course, to operate to a specific Cat x limit you need the appropriate ground equipment, it all needs to be working,(and to be complete there is a whole host of other small but very critical points) but Airforcenone backs up my point very well.

Although I have rarely used its full landing capabilities having it as an option is very useful and enables us to commence our flight to a foggy destination when many other regional and low cost carries are looking for other options.

When was the last time you heard a Speedbird diverting due fog? In twenty years I cannot think of an occasion, however I have heard plenty of others.

So is this merger a good thing or a bad thing? Well when I write my memoirs I will tell you. The fact is that it all depends where you are sitting, in an A319, E145, paying for a seat down the back, serving the product or in the board room. We must remember that some people will lose there jobs, others will have to move or take much lower T&C. Other people may find opertunity. At the moment I just do not know. I don't fancy new T&C's and I do not want to move. I also want to have some form of job in the future which as missiles start flying in Afganistan is not as certain as a few weeks ago.

One thing that does concern me greatly is that mergers like this start off with the idea of taking the best bits of all ingredients and turning them into a super tasty delight. However it is much more complicated in reality as BA should know from its LGW experiences and we all know from experiences such as trying to buy a really high spec car that does 100mpg and yet doesn't worry the bank account one little bit!!!!! In short life is a compromise and the final reality is often much less rewarding than the bean counters would like us to belive.

Things do need to change, we need to respond to the challenges that become our industry as a whole and specific markets like regional operations. However I generally belive that if you desire quality then you mast be prepared to pay for it. If its low cost, then there is always someone who will do it cheaper.......

Safe Flying :cool:

Ringwayman

8th Oct 2001, 01:31

When was the last time you heard a Speedbird diverting due fog? In twenty years I cannot think of an occasion, however I have heard plenty of others.

Some BA examples:

15/1/97: 2 x 747 and 2 x DC10 diverted to MAN

26/11/93: 3 x 747 and 1 x Conc diverted to MAN

25/2/92: 5 x 747 diverted to MAN

13/12/91: 2 x 747, 2 x 767, 2 x 737, 1 x 757 and 1 x Conc diverted to MAN

13/11/89: 5 x 747, 1 x 747 and 1 x 737 diverted to MAN

Still want to say that you've heard no Speedbird flights diverting due to fog? These are just the LHR/LGW listings; I could add in all the BHX flights as well that have ended up at MAN.

Their planes may be CAT 3 but if holding time is excessive, then you will see aircraft diverting to fuel and go. Unless BA have got everlasting fuel ;)

Ringwayman

[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: Ringwayman ]

overstress

8th Oct 2001, 01:49

Ringwayman:

So the Speedbirds you quote didn't divert due fog, they actuslly diverted due FUEL, which is a different point to that made by R308R.

Angel Fish/Cake or whatever:

I suggest YOU find out what the term "R308R" actually means, and when you find out, reconsider your slagging off of the eponymous PPRuNer.

PS: I prefer IBI67/240/4 myself!

Ringwayman

8th Oct 2001, 02:17

Okay...you want to bring out the "anorak" in me:

15/1/97: AI (2 x 747), KQ (A310), PK (747), VS (747), KU (747), LO (737), AY (DC9), PS (737), CP (DC10), RG (MD11), MS (A300), CO (DC10), AH (737), UA (767) and RO (737) diverted in addition to the BA planes.

26/11/93: NW (DC10 & 747), KU 747, VS (2 x 747), MH (747), EK (A310), TK (A310) and AZ (2 x DC9) all accompanied the BA planes.

25/2/92 SV (747), UA (3 x 747 & 1 x 727), QF (747), AA (747sp), TW (747), RH (767), BW (L1011), AC (747), VS (747), MH (747), NW (747) and CX (747) all visited as well

13/12/91: LH (737), HV (737), KL (737), TP (737) and CY (A310) as well.

All foggy days/evenings at LHR/LGW. Fortunately for all, I don't have a list of countrywide diversions from LHR/LGW to hand ;)

Or put more succinctly:

Fog = hold = low fuel = divert!

Besides, we know that BA are loathe to handle diverted aircraft here, even for the "splash and dash" scenarios.

Ringwayman

Lucky Angel

8th Oct 2001, 13:40

Well here i am again with another point to you R308R...My question to you is...For how long do you thing people in BAR would have kept their jobs if the situation stayed as it was??..eg i went on 4 BAR flights within the last year, 3 on a 737 out of MAN and 1 on an A319 out of BHx...The MAN flights pax 17 and 24....how much profit or loss shall i ask does that make...and the BHX flight 40 pax......so how long do you think BAR would stay alive if the loads stayed like that??????? I met and i have friends that work for BAR and they all tell me that the loads are more low than high and they dont know how BAR was keeping on top.As for the all wx factor i ask you in your 20 years of experience as you say....how many times did you have to do a CAT III actual approach?????? and how many times did you have to divert because the wind was greater than your 30kt x-wind limit ...yesterday for eg there was uknown delay time into EGLL because of strong winds ,, one more question how many times did you hear an airbus or 737 had to divert from ABZ because of performance limitations due to snow/slush on the rwy???? i heard quite a few of those too.....so i think we all have to accept that each a/c has its own special capabilities and can get into airports where higher technology a/c can't. Looking forward to your reply and answers to my questions......oh and by the way you dont know who i am either....

Paddington*

8th Oct 2001, 16:12

All the techinical/operational arguments that I've seen posted here in favour of the Airbus make perfect sense. However there's also another side to this:- The customers (those people who we hope will fly with us more than once!) prefer the Airbus.

From a pax's point of view the A319s are vastly better than any alternative currently used at BHX. They're quieter inside the cabin; the pax love the leather seats & the moving map display; the cabins are more spacious; there's far more room in the galleys too, therefore the cabin crew can do their job more effectively; etc, etc, (I could go on but I wouldn't want to bore you....!).

Lucky Angel, I took 82 pax out to BRU this morning. Doesn't sound a particularly low load to me!

[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: Paddington* ]

Tandemrotor

8th Oct 2001, 22:00

Anybody out there happen to know whether BAR pilots will have any part whatsoever to play in the BACE setup, IF the unions allow it to go ahead?

What's the betting that in 2 years time BACE are operating aircraft not too dissimilar to the A318!

Nice one Rod. Let's all bend over, this won't hurt a bit!

R308R

9th Oct 2001, 00:38

Thank you ringwayman for demonstrating just how few times BA's fuel policy has required diversions for fog over the past 10 years. Of course with so hundreds of flights a day there will always be a few, otherwise you could argue that we are carrying too much too much of the time fuel.

My point is in danger of being diluted here. The bottom line is that you are more likely to get to your destination with a BA operated service than many other carriers who will find various reasons for not flying or landing at the right place. ie running out of de-icing buget or fog or no crew of poor reliability.

Now I know some of you will point the finger at some of the BA francisees or subsideries who may not be as good with reliability and achieving a high schedual achievment as BA. I do not have figures so will not comment, but I believe BA are aware of things(BAR management certainly were a short while ago) and will have to make decisions over time.

Lucky Angel. I have seen the BAR figures for Oct and November 01 and prior to 11/9 they were up on last year.
I stated in my last posting that change is needed. I have also stated that I am not prepared to say whether this is good or bad until I write my memoirs.

Is there a plan for BA pilots who fly for BAR in BACE. Nothing has been said, lots to discuss with unions etc.but probably Yes. If the A318 is the replacement then we should consider that a number of experinced A319 pilots may find oppertunities to get involved with its introduction and training you lucky BACE guys and then enjoying a beer down route with you.

Overstress & Paddington or indeed anyone else ..... wiggle your wings over R308R ............ I'll be watching .....

Safe Flying :cool: :D :D

Tandemrotor

9th Oct 2001, 02:09

BALPA - Do you have your eye on the ball this time, or are you going to allow the Regions to be shafted AGAIN!!!

If you do, please excuse me for laughing when all your (our) pigeons come home to roost at fortress Heathrow. Remember, you read it hear first!!!!

Incidentally, I currently earn my keep at LHR. "It's life Jim, but not as we know it!"

52049er

9th Oct 2001, 11:35

Overstress - I prefer R325R meself :) Yup - attacking R308R does show, how can I put it, a lack of 'local' knowledge?

As far as BAR pilots working for BACE, the word seems to be that if the situation improves and 100+ routes remain available, there is a chance that BACE will wet lease 319/318's from BA. As far as us drivers are concerned, that would be a fairly similar situation to present, except that there would be no rosterers/crewcontrol etc at egbb - which I for 1 would miss, plus no decent nightstops (sounds familiar :) ) and a lot of egbb/egpf/egbb/lfpg/egbb/egpf days. We are on mainline contracts and so may have the option of moving to RJ's, but that should (!) be an option.

The feedback I get from customers (especially those many we take from tech'd emb's) is that they do much prefer the 'bus. Not surprising really but with a CEO wedded too frequency (see his recent egbb crewroom briefing) I guess if a customer wants flights at 7.00, 12.00 and 17.00 to Rome hes only going to get an embraer.

Customer service eh? Funny how that doesnt seem to have been factored in to the way our customer service specialists seem to have been treated. Once again our crew colleagues have stunned me with their sheer professionalism and ability to keep a smile under the most difficult of times. More than once over the last few days I've seen a tearful, worried and frankly furious CCM turn on the charm and service once aboard. Bravo - we are thinking of you!!

rhythm method

9th Oct 2001, 13:22

Please let's stop the BACE bashing.

References to how BA mainline are getting the job done while the franchises are not performing don't wash too well.

R308R, don't personally care who you are, but having looked at the first 8 months 'on time punctuality' figures released for 2001, BAR only managed an average of 55.5% for the 8 months. BRAL however managed 63.75% (Manx was even higher). I'd also like to point out that these figures only refer to punctuality and no reference is made to flights which couldn't go due poor wx, a/c unserviceability, etc, but in defence the companies don't even use the same guidelines to record punctuality. BAR use the time the door is closed. We on the other hand record the time we actually move off stand (much harder to be on time by our rules yet we do manage it more often).

I think there is a trend for criticising BACE already, but let's be fair, at present the choice would appear to be dole queue or BACE... If the boot was on the other foot and I'd been earning your high salaries and was now faced with these new T+C's I would be slightly financially worried, but we've been living like this for years and it can be done.

Presently BA are in financial diffs and all means to reduce costs and overheads are necessary. Filling a barbie jet instead of half-filling a 'bus means PROFIT. Everyone needs to waken up and smell the coffee. It is a business not a charity we're running.

I do feel for people who will be made redundant in these difficult times, but we at BACE are bending over backwards to help out at present (indeed it means mega-upheaval and disruption to our own plans). BA's problems have forced us to freeze all external recruitment. How would BA crews have felt if you were suffering redundancies whilst we continued to hire as was planned?

Not really one for proverbs but I believe this one may fit in nicely...

..DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS!

direct chase

9th Oct 2001, 16:29

BAR punctuality is not measured on doors closed, it is measured on brakes release. On time has a plus 3 min window

BHX punctuality with the 319 has actually outperfomed Brymon/BRAL and BAR at MAN ...fact not fiction. average daily on time ( brake release !!) has been as high as 85% some weeks (measured over a 7 day period) indeed a number of days at 100%

No one is argueing that the 50 seater offers a better shedule, and no one is argueing that the pax. prefer the 319. What is needed and will happen is a mix of aircraft being able to offer the best service in terms of frequency/choice of destination/cost

As for the 318/319/320 flying in BACE....these types of aircraft offer the options as above.

There is no change to to the way the 319 will be crewed, it will be flown by BA pilots who operate to a BAR sheduling document.

Maybe one day there will be opportunities for BA pilots and BACE pilots to move across the fleets, but at the moment there is not.

What is important is that we all get through this crisis. We are all paid by BA whatever our terms and contracts may be.

knows

9th Oct 2001, 16:36

I'm a bit surprised that the Citiexpress crews haven't asked to be treated the same way that Cityflyer crews were treated recently.
<It seems, after reading pprune, that some Citiexpress crews are actually pleased to see BA being " dragged down" to their levels of remuneration/rostering.>

Surely it would be better for all communities if we could join the companies AND achieve improvenments to their pay/lifestyle ( such as CFE enjoy. )

Hand Solo

9th Oct 2001, 23:36

There certainly seems to be a misconception by one BACE poster that BAR pilots are to be dragged down to T&Cs of BACE, but this is not the case. It's business as usual for us on our not-so-high salaries. We are actually the cheapest and most productive base in flight crewbase in BA and many of our ex-charter DEPs claim they work as hard if not harder now for less cash (but more roster stability). There also appears to be a perception that BACE are 'saving our bacon' in a time of crisis. WRONG! Management figures show loads improved since last year, and are barely impacted by Sept 11. This 'crisis' merger has been on the cards for well over a year and represents the BAR managements utopian dream of forcing everyone on a BA contract to work for peanuts. If this wasn't planned, then why did the BAR Chief Pilot take a secondment to run Brymon about 6 months ago?

BA in Birmingham has been running at a profit for some time, and its certainly not a question of BACE or the dole queue. I'm not exactly sure how BACE have been 'bending over backwards' to help (though I'm willing to be corrected). Rather as you use the terminal we pay for, the ground customer service staff we pay for and the dispatchers we pay for, not to mention access to the BA ticket sales network and brand and the exec lounge, I think BACE do rather well out of the deal.

Red Snake

10th Oct 2001, 11:12

BACE isn't a different company! It is BA - costs are born by BA & profits are returned to BA. Which part of BA pays for lounges, tickets, network, marketing is irrelevant - it's just internal squabbling. At the end of the day it's profit and cost. BA's job, as that of any business, is to maximise the former & minimise the latter. And try not to shaft too many people in the process.

Fool's Hole

10th Oct 2001, 12:24

R308R

QUOTE:
"Now I know some of you will point the finger at some of the BA francisees or subsideries who may not be as good with reliability and achieving a high schedual achievment as BA"

Just tell me what is the ACTUAL difference between BA and a franchise aircraft like a Maersk 737 for instance?
Where is the difference?
Are the people that fly the aircraft made of different particles?
Are the cabin crew a BA brand of person?
How different are they?

What is BA, when it could just become a bunch of highly paid managers that franchise away every single flight so there are no employees or aircraft or indeed any overheads at all????

How come you believe that BA are different, when it's just a Concept?

habibi

10th Oct 2001, 13:24

Brymon has been making a good profit, under difficult conditions (and pay) we don't want to undermine anyone else's pay, we'd just like to improve ours a little, reducing someone else's won't help. Arguing about who's better than who or who's better at getting off chocks helps no-one, we shuld be helping each other out supporting the pay and conditions of those at the top of th e tree and trying to improve those at the bottom, having first ensured survival. EGPWS I think that Brymon Embrears have that - for what it's worth, oh and some of the Dash 8's have leather seats - aprt from that though the A319's are a world apart, but are a tad more expensive.......

HOVIS

10th Oct 2001, 19:55

Rhythm method,

I have to agree with 'Chase, The BAR fleet are timed when doors are closed and brakes are off. Many are the times when I have been asked by a captain if he can release the brakes even though the tug hasn't arrived, or there is a line of traffic a mile long behind the a/c with no chance of pushing back.

As for your comments regarding recruitment,
BRAL/BACE engineering are still recruiting externally even though the MAN hangar is closing and 120+ staff are looking for jobs!

To all you pilots currently working for BAR, good luck, you are going to need it, as we have been well and truly shafted.

Nice working with you over the years, see you at the job centre.

[ 10 October 2001: Message edited by: HOVIS ]

Mr Angry from Purley

10th Oct 2001, 21:19

Exerts from a memo to BAR staff dated 5/10/01 from the GM UK Business.

"Therefore it is our intention to combine our two UK subsideries (Citiexpress and BAR)by CLOSING BAR over a period of time and intergrating the operations with BA Citiexpress.The synergies resulting from the intergration, along with the tactical capacity reductions and network changes, will mean the regional business will employ 200 fewer people in the future.
(Apparently they are not merging but Citiexpress is taking over BAR?)
The long term strategic fleet plans for the UK regions is to re-equqip the fleet, replacing the 737 and A319 aircraft with smaller regional jets. Current Citiexpress Staff have been told that the model for their terms and conditions in the future willbe based on the current BRAL model (presume that's the chepest labour?)
We intended to relocate BA Citiexpress Ops in Manchester. However, following recent events resulting in a downturn in business and a subsequent embargo on capital expenditure we have decided to consolidate our operations into the IOM, and decision which is unlikely to change before April 2003. This means the PLY Ops centre and Line Mx Control at BRS will close.The BAR Ops centre at BHX will continue to control the BAR Operation ( for how long )
The info sheet also included some Q and A which was basically a load of management answers.The question of "what will be offered to BA Pilots flying for BAR" was answered as
"BAR Pilots are on mainline contracts, however, in view of the current crises hitting BA, Flight Ops Mgmt will be discussing with BALPA about how best to accommodate BA Pilots flying for BARand the new work falling to BA ****yExpress

So in basic terms the Ground Staff will remain on their basic pay, the Pilots will slide back into LHR, and the BAR Cabin Crew are getting shafted.
I wonder if the Management will go to Bral wages.....

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Amazon man

11th Oct 2001, 00:52

Mr Angry from Purley,

Please dont start a slanging match with us here at Citiexpress formerly BRAL.

As a pilot with the former Bral our salaries were and are fairly near the top for the type of work we do. We didn't ask for the merger into BA we were a pretty successful airline before the franchise agreement,the subsequent franchise benefitted both companies.

The plain fact is that with or without Sept 11th BAR and BA mainline were going to face some very serious decisions as to what the future shape of BA was going to be, it seems to me that sometimes this was only obvious to those outside the airline.

The other point I rather dislike is the suggestion that we are a rather inferior product to BA proper, this is simply not the case.The aircraft we operate are obviously smaller, but I for one much prefer flying in our aircraft than much bigger types ,the seat pitch is good and high back seats far more comfortable than many bigger aircraft.Many passengers have commented on the above to me in the past.Most importantly of all they make money with only a few seats filled,and yes many of the aircraft in the fleet have the leather seats like your mainline aircraft,in fact we wanted them before BA but they refused, worried that they would look and offer a better product than their own aircraft.

Whatever happens in the future both of our survival depends on BA and the steps it takes in the next few months , Citiexpress will no doubt become a larger part of that survival you should welcome that it may benefit you in the long term, dont forget we have been around for some eighteen years ourselves thats not a bad record for what was a small airline in a very harsh business and we have never made anybody redundant during that time.

Lets pull together not fall apart.

wayward

11th Oct 2001, 03:04

well said Amazon Man
We have been merged and have to get on with it.There is no point critising and slagging off Bace.We didn`t ask to be merged with BAR,just as BAR didn`t ask to be merged with BACE.It was a business decision.We are on our second merger in 5 months.
If anyone doesn`t want to join BACE then they need to seriously think of the alternatives.There are a lot of people being made redundant, with very little hope of an immediate return to flying with another airline.
I can understand the concerns of changing to a less financially attractive terms and conditions.No one really wants to earn less money for the same amount of work.Berating BACE solves nothing.

It doesn`t solve your problems

rhythm method

11th Oct 2001, 04:23

Wayward, you beat me to it!

As Amazon so rightly said, we didn't seek this BAR merger. It is being forced upon us and is the reason some of us will be disadvantaged in promotional terms (BACE crews know what I'm talking about as its been on our company forum for over a week now).

However let's look at the bigger picture. MAX PROFIT from every route is one of the priorities right now. One half full Airbus or 737 may mean a minimal operating profit. Put an Embraer on the route and it's now full and operating at MAX PROFIT!!! GET IT?
Yes it's only a baby plane in your mind but it CAN do what is required (and it pains me to say that as BACE crews will know!).

The other facts about BAR operating on schedule better than us as Hovis corrected me... I've only got my facts (if they are facts) from BAR dispatchers. We've been told in the past that if they exit the aircraft and shut the door at STD then we're 'ON TIME' by their rules. Perhaps flight crew are told that 'brakes off' time is what counts, but not in our books. If I release the brakes with a tug attached and don't leave stand for another 10 minutes then my passengers think I'm late (they're right). I didn't want to get into a slanging match about on-time or not, but I won't accept incorrect assumptions that BAR are doing the job so much better than us. WE ARE NOT THE INFERIOR PRODUCT THAT SOME OF YOU IMPLY. We strive to better you at every opportunity and that's just from pride in our work (perhaps some could learn a lesson from this).

As a whole I want BA to succeed; 3 of my family are employed in differing branches of BA / BA subsidiaries so I'm viewing this all with a balanced opinion.

LET'S MUCK TOGETHER AND DIG OURSELVES OUT OF THIS SH*THOLE THAT TOP-LEVEL MANAGEMENT HAVE BURIED US IN OVER RECENT YEARS!

[edited for minor mis-spelling due drunkenness! (I'll bet there are others I won't spot till the morning!)]

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: rhythm method ]

Bigpants

11th Oct 2001, 11:34

The Times 10th October "Airline executive steals £2m after losing his bonus"

During 2 years at BRYMON Airways Mr S*******s saved the company between £4 and £6million with his expertise as a financial controller. He was expecting to be given about 30% of that sum as a bonus but the money was never paid.

He then set up a company to make false payments to himself and.....for the next 12 MONTHS! and 36 plus payments got away with it.

It was only when the Engineering Director realised that a large part of his budget was being paid to a company that he had never heard of that action was taken. Nice to know that we employ such sharp on the ball engineering managers.

Mr S******s Boss was apparently unsympathetic and had cut his performance bonus to £100...In the finest tradition of BA management I might add.

£750,000 is still unaccounted for... not a bad return given he will probably serve 12 months max of the 4 year sentence

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Bigpants ]

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Bigpants ]