With a flash......

[FFP]

Hi,

So I'm in a debate / difference of opinion with a foreign (US) colleague of mine regarding the above phrase when asked to "Squawk Ident"

I prefer to use the term " Squawk Ident (Callsign)" to acknowledge the instruction. They prefer the "With a flash" presumably because a) they think it sounds cool and punchy b) it refers to the indications a controller will see on their screen.

Now a) I can put down to a personality / cultural thing but b) I think I can fight with actual data. I thought that ident made the squawk stand out by brightening the numbers, rather than making it flash (did it use to on earlier systems ?)

Can someone clarify what actually happens (and if it differs around the world)so I can use it as ammo in my arguments or stick to my "It sounds sloppy" line of argument

Thanks and apologies if it's been done before. Search for "Slang R/T Calls" didn't bring up anything:E

[Scooby Don't]

On the radar systems I've used, IDENT has either made the entire data block (callsign, altitude, groundspeed) flash, or has put a flashing circle around the blip.

As for the radio response, I'm perfectly happy with "roger, callsign". There's nothing wrong with "squawk ident, callsign", but since the action of squawking ident indicates that you're following the instruction given I don't consider a readback of that instruction to be strictly necessary.

I've never heard "with flash", but I very much doubt I'd be quaking at the coolness of the pilot giving such a response....

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

On radars I once used, the ident feature came up as a flashing circle around the tiny cross representing the a/c position for a few seconds.

Sounds like your buddy is a Space cadet?

[The Many Tentacles]

At Swanwick, the area side anyway, anything squawking Ident gets a flashing circle around the radar return.

It's not a mandatory readback so I'm not fussed if pilots don't say anything back to me, although most do.

I've only ever heard the "flash" term being used by US Military pilots so I guess it's one of their things, although to be fair I've never had to change the squawk on civil US carriers so it could just be an American thing

[FFP]

I've only ever heard the "flash" term being used by US Military pilots

And that's the colleague in question.

So it does, in some fashion, create a "flash" in the sense of a circle around the a/c ?

Thanks for the answers !

[Dizzee Rascal]

At Swanwick, the area side anyway, anything squawking Ident gets a flashing circle around the radar return.

It's not a mandatory readback so I'm not fussed if pilots don't say anything back to me, although most do.

SSR operating instructions require a readback, ident included.

[Radarspod]

From a technical point of view, the when the pilot is asked to squawk ident (or whatever phrase chosen to use) an extra pulse (SPI) is sent in all SSR replies ,or a flag sent in all Mode S replies, for 18 seconds.

The radar will pass this information on to the RDP / display system. Whether the target label flashes, font changes, blip flashes, circle around blip, is down only to the implementation of the display system used at that unit. There isn't a 'standard'.

RS

[5milesbaby]

I always chase up a pilot that doesn't confirm he is IDENTing when requested. When changing squalk I don't ask for any IDENT as at Swanwick it isn't actually needed, the computer detects the squalk change and pairs the track as required and validation comes from observing the selection of the required code.

[The Many Tentacles]

I always chase up a pilot that doesn't confirm he is IDENTing when requested.

Why?? You can see it on the radar screen so why question the compliance of the pilot. If you don't see it, then I can understand it, but why are you badgering a pilot for something you can clearly see.

Waste of RT time

[FantomZorbin]

In the days of Methusalah before code/callsign conversion etc. SSR used to be displayed as something akin to a bar-code - 2 bracketing slashes and the rest in between. When a pilot squawked ident an extra slash (or flash) was displayed on the outside of the 'bar-code' ... R/T phraseology (when the 'Trappers' weren't around!) could be "C/S Squawk code with Ident/Slash/Flash" - "Ident" being the correct and, for my money, an easier term to use.

The best alternative SSRspeak to my mind was:
"Squawk Standby" = "Strangle your Parrot"!!!!

[BEXIL160]

Slightly off topic, but wonder how many people remember the instruction toStrangle the parrot??

BEX



oops, posted within minutes of teh above.... must be a few of us old bu... people, around.

i'll get me zimmer

[anotherthing]

Why?? You can see it on the radar screen so why question the compliance of the pilot. If you don't see it, then I can understand it, but why are you badgering a pilot for something you can clearly see.

Waste of RT time
Operation of SSR is a mandatory readback.

Being a pedant, how do you know that a pilot has two way communications with you if he does not readback 'Squawk Ident', pareticualrly in a TMA environment when it is often the first communication the radar controller will have with the aircraft in question?

Lots of pilots get airborne and press the ident button as a matter of course - they think it's helpful :ugh:. To ensure you have two way communications you should get a readback of the instruction and observe compliance.

There are a lot of times especially with the new VCCS system, that pilots miss calls or take other peoples calls. Strictly speaking you need the readback, otherwise you haven't actuall fulfilled the identification requirements.

it's not a 'Waste of RT time ', if you actually understand the implications.
Bexil -

I remember it, some of the old salts still used it in the RN as recently as a couple of years ago.

[Rule3]

Scooby, you "Northerners" don't talk to the dozens of warbirds we talk to daily in the "South".:{ To a man or woman they respond "WITH A FLASH", and yes, on our Display it does give a Flashing circle around the Track Plot Symbol.:ok:

[The Many Tentacles]

I don't work in a TMA environment so I guess it's different.

The only time I need something to Ident is when it's called me already so by telling it to squawk and it complying then I know I have two way. Horses for courses

[cottam approach]

The Many Tentacles,

If you allocated a different SSR code to a pilot, would you expect him to read back the code over the RT? Or would compliance on your screen mean it didn't warrant a response?

[Waterfall]

A strange thing to ask about.SSR codes MUST be read back over RT.that*s what the documents say(ICAO phraseology)- as well as RW in use,QNH and other stuff.

[Dizzee Rascal]

A strange thing to ask about.SSR codes MUST be read back over RT.that*s what the documents say(ICAO phraseology)- as well as RW in use,QNH and other stuff.

Waterfall, I think the point is that SSR operating instructions which therefore includes 'squawk ident' as well as dialling in the numbers, are required readback items (in the UK at least).

[cottam approach]

Exactly the point

[The Many Tentacles]

If you allocated a different SSR code to a pilot, would you expect him to read back the code over the RT? Or would compliance on your screen mean it didn't warrant a response?

Yes, if allocating a new code I would expect a readback and would chase it up, but I'm not chasing anyone for a confirmation of an Ident request especially if they've complied.

[Avoiding_Action]

Yes, if allocating a new code I would expect a readback and would chase it up, but I'm not chasing anyone for a confirmation of an Ident request especially if they've complied.

Why? If the radar shows that they have selected the code, why waste RT time?

[ImnotanERIC]

same could be said for seeing selected level via mode S without a readback. would you "waste" rt time checking that.

[Avoiding_Action]

That's the point I'm trying to make.

[elcrusoe]

AS far as i am concerned the term "with the flash" is used in regards to the request of the ATCO for the A/C to "ident" for radar identification purposes. The pilots respond "C/S, with the flash".

Pilots always get to use a more Cowboyish phraseology than we do. Especially here in the US.But mostly it is ex mil pilots

[Flash0710]

I say... " afirm ".... coz its got me on board....

hugs

xxx

f

[thorisgod]

It's plane-driver speak for "I'm cool"

Proper Pilots don't do it.

As ATC would you allow the Instruction "ABC123 Climb to FL370" be responded with "goin' up"?

A bit of professionalism is not only expected but necessary.:ugh:

Thorisgod

[WhatMeanPullUp]

The reply of (code) "with the flash" big deal, when you work so many military aircraft then you get used to it. There is absolutely no point in getting anal because they did not say (code) "ident" or trying to get them to say that. Life is too short and at the end of the day the result is the same. :ok: