Jeppesen Low Altitude Enroute Charts

[Heliplane]

I recently picked up a Jeppesen Low Altitude Enroute Chart to keep in my flight bag in case of emergencies (I bought this by itself and thus do not have the overall Jeppesen guide).

The minimum enroute altitudes for airways segments are mostly specified as flight levels - simple enough - but on certain segments, the letters "T", "a" or "g" follow the relevant altitude (eg 7000T, 6000a).

I recall that the "T" suffix denotes the minimum obstacle clearance altitude but can someone let me know what the others mean?

I've scoured these forums and the internet for a guide to these Jeppesen charts but can't seem to find one. Unfortunately there is no legend on the charts themselves. Does anyone know if one is available?

Thanks!

[IO540]

Try here (http://www.jeppesen.com/aviation/business/additional-info-ifr-paper-services.jsp). Might be in this big PDF (http://www.jeppesen.com/documents/aviation/business/ifr-paper-services/glossary-legends.pdf).

[Heliplane]

Certainly is a big PDF and it's there on page 56, thanks!

"a" is minimum off route altitude

"g" is minimum enroute altitude with GPS

"T" is as described above.

[SNS3Guppy]

Heliplane,

I commend you on your efforts to add to the information available to you in flight. I've always carried IFR charts when flying VFR for the same reason...and there's the added bonus that in the event of a forced landing far from help, you may have available the communications frequencies of the aircraft flying overhead to relay a message. I've done this in remote locations, before.

I would caution you, however, to be careful with how you view this chart and this information for emergency use. While the chart will give you minimum IFR altitudes, you can also get minimum altitudes and terrain information from VFR charts. If you elect to enter clouds and thus have to resort to this information, especially if you put yourself on an airway, you're placing ourself and others in significant danger from collision.

If the chart is foreign to you, one may surmise that you don't have an instrument rating or experience...I would strongly caution you to avoid inadvertant entry into instrument conditons and to know your routing very thoroughly before you fly. Entering instrument conditions accidentally has lead to a great many deaths and the loss of more than a few airframes.

Where the chart will prove most useful in your daily flying will be flight planning, and you can use some of the airway information to compare to VFR charts to pick your best routing. Bear in mind, however, that while some of this information is useful, one of the great utilities of flying VFR is that you aren't restricted to the spiderweb and maze of airways that constrict the IFR aviator.

[Heliplane]

Thanks for your cautionary words - despite being slightly presumptious!

Unfortunately my IFR experience (as PIC and CFII) has not extended to using what I have generally considered to be overpriced and inconvenient Jepp charts - I've generally avoided Jepp subscriptions in favour of other charts (NOS charts and approach plates available from AIPs) but the choice of IFR enroute charts in Europe appears to be slightly limited, hence my questions.

[IO540]

One can have an interesting debate about VFR chart carriage on IFR flights.

IMHO, a flight can be

- IFR
- VFR
- emergency situation

and in the last one the VFR charts can come in awfully handy, for terrain details, nearby (perhaps VFR only) airports, etc. For this reason I run a VFR chart as a GPS moving map on all flights.

For European IFR enroute charts, Jepp and Aerad are the only options, and last time I looked at Aerads they combined upper and lower airways on the same chart which made them much harder to use than Jepp ones.

However, on a planned IFR flight, I no longer carry printed enroute charts but instead print enroute sections (1"=10nm) from Flitestar. Much tidier; the printed enroute charts are not easy to use in the cockpit.

[SNS3Guppy]

Thanks for your cautionary words - despite being slightly presumptious!


Okay. Let me be more blunt. You have no business whatsoever carrying the charts if you don't fully understand them.

Your language indicates a strong ignorance of where you should be when carrying those charts, and certainly that with those charts in hand, you're out of your element.

If you think they're too pricey and can't bother to pony up the cash to get the jepp data providing a key to the charts, then carry something else.

Non-presumptuous enough for you?

[IO540]

Captain SNS3Guppy

If you think they're too pricey and can't bother to pony up the cash to get the jepp data providing a key to the charts, then carry something else.

Many people enjoy your long and detailed posts, which are a rarity because most people can't be bothered to write anything informative.

But when you write in terms like the above, may I suggest that you do us impoverished European pilots a favour: purchase the European Jeppesen FliteStar and JeppView 3 subscriptions (and I mean all of Europe, not what Jepp call "Europe" which is just the old White Christian bit west of the old Iron Curtain) and post the installation codes?

Then we will all have access to the latest authorised aeronautical information, updated every 28 days for the next 12 months, and will fly very safely.

:ok:

[SNS3Guppy]

You don't need to buy flightstar to know get detailed information on how to read a jepp chart. However, if you're going to buy a jepp chart with the intent of making it available in flight, at least take the trouble to know the material.

Jeppesen puts out books covering their publications in great detail.

[C-N]

sorry, you mean FliteStar

[Heliplane]

However, if you're going to buy a jepp chart with the intent of making it available in flight, at least take the trouble to know the material....You have no business whatsoever carrying the charts if you don't fully understand them.


Hence the reason for my original post.

Many thanks again to IO540 who very helpfully put a link up to a document that enabled me to fill the gaps in my knowledge - I'm now comfortable with the material and, should the need to file IFR arise during my travels in Europe, I'd feel safe using the materials at my disposal.

Now if I could just figure out how to stop coming out clouds inverted all the time.....

[worrab]

Now if I could just figure out how to stop coming out clouds inverted all the time.....
Time to ditch that Russian attitude Indicator then...:)

[A and C]

AERAD are now part of the EAG group, this is a company that has merged with the SAS chart company.

Unfortunately they have put IFR charts back into the dark ages mostly by cutting down on the number of charts and squeezing far too much data onto one chart.

I have raised an ASR about one of the charts that has a very poor depiction of the stop altitude on a SID from a major UK airport, this example is a "level bust" waiting to happen. Unfortunately this is only the most dangerous of the numerous errors in these charts that have been "staring" in CHIRP of late.

Some of you may think that Jeppesen are expensive but it costs to do a job properly.

I am reminded of the old adage "if you think that safety is expensive try having an accident"

[IO540]

I used to use Aerads (had the UK sub) and my recollection is that they cost me £160/year and took up two binders. I then went to the Jepp version which was £125/year and (due to thinner paper) was 1 binder which was much more convenient. And it had most of the military plates too.

I thought the Aerad plates looked "nicer" but this soon became totally irrelevant because as soon as one moves to electronic versions, one finds that Aerad don't have a product, and the paper versions because near-impossible to manage for say Europe.

A friend of mine married a girl working for some Gatwick airline whose entire job was stuffing the monthly Aerad updates into the binders for the company's pilots :) She must have been desperate for a marriage; anybody would do :)

I reckon European-coverage binders would weigh 10-20kg which is ridiculous - like the Jepp Bottlang VFR books I used to carry. I had 20kg of them on a trip to Crete.

So a "lone pilot" has to go electronic eventually, to save the updating time, and that rules out Aerad.

Cost-wise, I don't think there is any huge difference between the paper and the electronic versions. Europe is pricey any way you look at it - the whole of Europe is about £1000-1500/year.

[pplir2000]

After reading all the previous comments on the subject of charts, I now realise why I don't read these forums (or forums in general,all subjects). For some inexplicable reason, forums seem to spawn rudeness to strangers and "aren't I a clever dick" attitude! Surely the idea of forums is to pass on relevant information, and not to insult fellow members?:confused:

[BackPacker]

Surely the idea of forums is to pass on relevant information, and not to insult fellow members?

Yep, and when the discussion has run its course we generally let the discussion die.

If you resurrect a thread that's over half a year old you better have a very good reason to do so. For instance because new information about the subject has come to light. Commenting on the general tone of a thread, especially if you're new and don't know the members (who may know each other personally, and may be known to take their offline banter online sometimes) is NOT a good reason to resurrect a thread. Especially not if you do it in your third post on this forum in recorded history.

This particular thread happened to attract the attention of quite a few regulars. IO540, SNS3Guppy and A&C are all very respected members here, with literally 1000s of interesting posts to their name. We're just missing contributions from Bose-X, Pilot DAR, Bookworm and a few others, and the crowd is complete. So be very careful barging in here and insulting these folks.

[IO550]

IO540

Can you tell me roughly what it costs to maintain Flitestar/ Jeppview for the nearby Europe area, enroute lower airspace and terminal charts along with the IFR flight planning software?
I currently plan manually which is a bit long winded and borrow charts as required from the operation I sometimes work for.
Also what is needed to display this info in flight? Current setup is GNS430 plus paper charts/plates and paper plog.
You appear to be a regular distance traveller and should know the best compromise between cost and safety. My problem is that although I fly hundreds of airline hours a year, when I travel privately I don't fly enough on longer trips (say 300nm+) to warrant large expense just to make life easy. As a result I tend to avoid airways which I believe is a common issue.

[IO540]

IO550

You need to contact Jepp. They have an office at Gatwick.

From memory:

Flitestar IFR Europe is about £500/year including updates.

Jeppview Europe is about £2000/year if you include VFR plates and include the whole of what we call Europe (not what Jepp call Europe which is just west of the Iron Curtain).

I don't have Jeppview myself; used to for a while.

If you are an airline pilot, your best bet is to get friendly with another airline pilot who has Jeppview and get him to send you plates as PDFs. This is what an awful lot of private pilots do. The package costs far too much to be bought by most individuals. Sometimes a flying club buys it and they print plates from it as required.

There is also an online version of Flitestar called JIFP, which works out a lot cheaper, but you use up a lot of bandwidth which could be pricey if you are travelling and using GPRS/3G. I measured this once and on PAYG it was quite significant (and very slow on GPRS). I am not aware of a similar online product offering Jeppview (i.e. approach plates).

I fly with pre-printed plates, and pre-printed enroute chart sections from Flitestar. Rarely carry the big printed airways charts (too unwieldy to use in the cockpit).

To display Jeppview in flight you need a tablet PC running windoze. There are various options e.g. Fujitsu P1610. Another way, if you get the plates as PDFs, is to use one of the new e-book products (the Kindle DX is the latest) which are basically dedicated PDF readers.

Unfortunately, there is no realistic process for printing off large numbers of appropriate classified approach plate PDFs from Jeppview, suitable for loading onto a e-book reader. There are many American companies offering e-book approach plate products but most use the free U.S. NACO plates. These free and totally usable plates have forced Jepp to dramatically reduce their prices in the USA.

There is just one American company (can't recall its name) offering Jeppesen plates on their e-book product; in this case you pay a similar (huge) amount for the data as with normal Jeppview, although if you already have Jeppview then the extra sub to this "electronic" version is actually very reasonable.

There are also the free downloadable plates from Eurocontrol EAD (and many national CAA websites) which are used by many pilots. I use them but don't like them because they are often badly drafted, but they are free. You can get them for most European countries, with some exceptions e.g. Italy and Greece.

[IO550]

IO540
Thanks for that. I would agree that Jeppview is prohibitively expensive for the average low to moderate user and that copying or borrowing plates from someone else is the cheapest way to go.

You mentioned that you print enroute chart sections and also plates from your Flitestar program, costing circa £500 a year to keep updated. Does this update both the software and the navigation data? If so, you have everything you technically need for IFR and airways flight as long as you preprint the sections required for enroute and destination/ diversion airfields when planning a flight.

Have I interpreted this correctly? By the way I am familiar with your site which is quite excellent. I commend your approach to just filing airways everywhere and climbing through cloud layers to get on top. How deep a freezing cloud layer will you willingly climb through with the help of turbo and deiced prop? Do you notice easier climbs over the Channel and further south than over northern Britain where temps may be slightly lower and frontal activity more pronounced?

[JimmyGerrard]

Hi. Jeppesen also offer a package called NavSuite which combines JeppView and FliteStar IFR with a cost saving of around 15-20% over buying them separately, so that might be worth some consideration too. If you call the Gatwick office for more info we'll be more than happy to help.:ok:

[flyingfemme]

I have just paid a renewal for Jeppview CD subscription (UK only) and GNS430/530 data (not available for UK only so "smallest" area possible) and it was just over €1,000.

Don't forget that paper charts and plates are zero rated for VAT but electronic subscriptions attract VAT at the standard rate. :ugh: