Scottish airspace query

[Torque2]

Hi all. Was operating TCX 583L Her-BFS last night and began descent routing direct 'Nelbo' from around the 'Halif' position at our usual descent point under London auspices, transferred to Scottish 129.1 and then to Scottish 123.775. Nothing unusual there until we asked for descent below approx FL200 when the controller informed us that in order to remain inside controlled airspace we would have to wait approx another 2 minutes. Eventually we were cleared below FL200 and transferred to Aldergrove at around BEL R110/45D, roughly 6000 ft high on the ideal profile.

Having flown the route many times before and not had this particular problem could someone enlighten me as to any changes that may have taken place causing the situation?

Thanks :ok:

[Itsjustaride]

Hi Torque,

The recent changes to the sector airspace only introduced NELBO to this route, there were no CAS base changes to this particular part of the route.

The airspace along the route you were following has (and has had for at least the last few years) a stepped base, FL195, FL135 and lastly FL75. Each section being approx 10-15 miles in length as you track towards NELBO. Hence why you will often get cleared to FL200, then FL140 before being cleared to FL100 (Our agreed level for transfer to Aldergrove).

Some pilots don't seem to be aware of these bases, and indeed most aircraft can be cleared to FL100 early because the controller knows their descent profile is unlikely to drop below these levels.

Some operators however seem to descend earlier, and you should get a warning like you recieved or the controller should offer you a service below CAS if you wish to continue descent or you can level off briefly to keep you inside.

First post, so hope this makes sense

:cool:

[AntiDistinctlyMinty]

There is no change in procedures per say, just someone applying the rules.
I am making a number of assumptions here.
The direct track you were sent on, I assume took you north of the airway L10. The base of CAS was therefore FL195 until you reached the Dublin-Turnberry airway P620.
I also assume that you arrived after 10pm when the night shift is in when, speaking personally I apply "night shift" rules where everything goes direct and the appropriate ATSOCA service is offered as required (its the night shift so its always a deconfliction service).
It would seem that the ATCO last night decided for what ever reason, that they would keep you inside controlled airspace and offer no alternative.

[Torque2]

Thanks guys. makes sense now and yes we were certainly arriving after 2200!:ok:

[controller friendly]

Anti D

North of L10 is P6 and whilst I'm not exactly sure of all the bases there is a fillet which starts before P620 which has a base of 75, P620's base is 95 but the bit that overlaps the fillet is lower...!!! Keeping up..???

I don't understand how an aircraft can end up 6000ft above it's descent profile though as the point of the airspace is to allow continuous descent as much as possible..??:rolleyes:

[Glamdring]

I don't understand how an aircraft can end up 6000ft above it's descent profile

Allow me to introduce you to the British Midland Embraer 145 :ok:

[controller friendly]

Been a while since I've spoken to one of those but I don't remember many problems..!!
Now 737s..they're great craic..esp the ones wit a harp on the tail..for some reason..!!!:cool:

[RYR738_driver]

Just a few questions I was hoping someone could clarify for me.

Inbound to EDI from the East on the TWEED 1D, restriction is 260B at NATEB - is this the standard level for co-ordination between London and Scottish unless permission has been given for the restriction to be ignored?

Then, on to the 220B at OTBUN - is that due to airspace constraints or to keep above the restricted area below, which I think is RAF SPADEADAM? Its just that on the 737NG, the FMC wants to be at about FL180 at OTBUN for an idle path descent.

Lastly, when departing for the East, on the Talla 6C or more specifically on the 6D, I usually ask for a deconfliction service and direct NATEB if available - is this annoying for the friendly controllers at Scottish? :)

Many Thanks

RYR738_driver

[rolaaand]

Hi RYR738

1-FL260 by NATEB is a standing agreement between two scottish sectors,Montrose(126.925) and Tay(124.5).The airspace around NATEB is extremely complex,this restriction gets you low enough to be under midlands group inbounds from the north east at FL270 and low enough that we have a fighting chance of jumping you with traffic climbing out of the Manchester and Scottish TMA's that routes via NATEB,when traffic permits then Montrose and Tay between them can cancel the restriction at NATEB but FL220 by OTBUN will still apply so that you remain clear of the Deancross sector which sits above the TMA.

2-The base of CAS at OTBUN is FL205,so you'll often find yourself levelling off at FL210 until passing there.It's badly designed as we would ideally like you lower so as to filter you into the TWEED hold at a reasonable level. It is the Otterburn danger D512/A that sits below the airway between NATEB and OTBUN,this prevents the base of the airway being lower.

3-Not annoying at all,the worst we can say is no! It involves a phonecall from the Talla controller to the Tay controller to ascertain whether they can accept you routeing that way, and what level of service that can be provided. It can be helpful,especially if you depart runway 06 to get you routeing direct as it keeps you from turning south towards the Tweed hold.However there can be a LOT of military activity outside CAS between Edinburgh and Newcastle,bear in mind that even under a deconfliction service that it's still up to you to see and avoid.

You're always welcome to come in and have a look round,cheers,rolaaand.

[121decimal375]

Generally london (if you are coming up from the OTR/UMBEL direction) will transfer you to Scottish generally 126.925 (Montrose sector) at your cruising level.

The FL260L by NATEB is a standing agreement for the next sector (124.5 - Tay sector). This restriction applies to all Scottish TMA inbounds. This is designed to prevent penetration of the DCS sector. Where traffic and controller workload permits often the NATEB restriction is ignored and then we will go straight to the FL220L OTBUN restriction with co-ordination of the adjacent sector.

You are correct that there is a danger area below L602. However this is D512 (otterburn range). Spadeadam is D510 which is to the SW of L602. The base of L602 is FL205. Therefore you will often be given the next clearance to decend to FL210 on cantact with 126.3 (Talla sector).

It is rare that D512 is active above 12000ft but the controller will usually step you down on the bases of controlled airspace. Any decent further that this will take you outside controlled airspace.

Even if D512 is not active, it is often that military targets are transiting the area enspecially when Spadeadam is in use. Therefore controllers will generally keep the aircraft inside controlled airspace for your protection and ours

The Talla controllers all understand that the L602 base levels keep most aircraft well above the ideal decent profile. If it suits you could always ask for decent outside controlled airspace and request the appropriate service, however dont be suprised if this is denied due to unknown aircraft outside controlled airspace and controller workload.

As for direct routings, if the frequency appears to be busy, or you can hear what ytou think could be a complex or unusual situation then dont even ask. However if it seems quiet then by all means, we are all happy to help.

Hope this helps

[RYR738_driver]

Thanks rolaaand and 121decimal375, very informative and I've definitely learnt something new :ok:

I've only been here a short while and still trying to get my head around the sector boundaries and which frequencies are in use when they are not bandboxed, so is the following correct?

126.925 is Montrose which would be the first sector after London when using L602
124.5 is Tay and would be after Montrose

126.3 is Talla sector which would be used before DCS when departing EGPH to the south
131.350 is DCS which handles all traffic above FL???
Which area does 124.825 cover?

I only ask as there is always a competition between me and the Capt about which frequency will be the departure freq from EGPH and i'd like to win just once :)

Thanks again

[NorthSouth]

rolaaand/121.375: routings outside CAS on a DS? Has the long-standing ScACC policy of not offering anything more than RIS/TS outside CAS been dropped now?
NS

[BwatchGRUNT]

on a deconfliction service it is NOT up to the pilot to see and avoid, under a traffic service it is.

deconfliction is deconfliction - controller provides seperation at least it is that way at LACC

[ayrprox]

driver,

DCS has two frequencies. The usual one is 135.530(used to be 135.525 but its just changed to become eu friendly) but DCS sector can be split when its particularly busy with transatlantic traffic cutting across from NATEB routing to MIMKU, IBROD..etc then 135.850 will be used for the DCS north sector. The vertical limits of DCS are FL260+. As has been mentioned, the 260 LVL NATEB restriction is designed to keep you out of the DCS sector and will generally only be cancelled late in the evening when things get quieter.

with regards to Galloway 124.825, and Talla 126.3, the country is basically split down the middle with a line joining cumbernauld and a position halfway between DCS and MARGO. East of this line is Talla sector working the inbound aircraft from the south and overflights FL250- , west of this line is the Galloway sector who work the departures from PF and PH departing through DCS and SUBUK and also those departures going through TRN to the southwest and ireland.

hope this helps

[rolaaand]

BwatchGRUNT-If you want to guarantee separation under a DC then that's up to you but you will eventually get your day in court my friend.Separation is provided against other participating or co-ordinated traffic. If the traffic is unknown or unco-ordinated we AIM to get 5nm/3000ft,and the blips are not to merge. We can't guarantee any separation against unknown traffic and it is the PILOT that is ultimately responsible for separation and terrain clearance in class G airspace regardless of the ATSOCA that is being provided.

RYR738-If you want to scam some cash off your mates then wait until you're going north on the GRICE departure,you'll always be transferred to 124.5:ok: