Who makes C172 radio stack?

[tomtom_91]

Hey All,

Does anyone know the name of the company who makes the radio stack as shown in this picture - The person is me (no abuse :)

Flickr Photo Download: DSC_0150 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ukv1290/3708183082/sizes/l/in/set-72157621119379855/)

Thanks

Tom

[jxc]

I must say I do find it safer looking out the front window when taxying

[ShyTorque]

Lookout while taxying, eh, jxc?

0/10 for lookout. The engine isn't even running... :rolleyes:

:D

[Big Pistons Forever]

It is a King Radio Inc "Silver Crown" stack

From top down

KMA 24 audio panel
KY 197 COM
KN53 Nav
KNS80 Nav/GS/DME/RNAV
KR 87 ADF

[IO540]

It looks like ancient King (later Bendix-King, later Honeywell) stuff. But I am not sure.

Why do you ask? It isn't worth anything.

[tomtom_91]

haha you guys are not the first to make the comment of looking behind when taxing etc. I wanted to try and find the user guide of its operation I did my first hour on that a/c on Friday (last) so yah hoping to get a foot up :d

Tom

[IO540]

You can find a lot of the manuals on the web. If you can't drop me an email and I can email you some. I've got a big collection.

[tomtom_91]

Awsome! Have pmed you!

[SNS3Guppy]

Most of the Bendix-King (Honeywell) pilot guides and supplements are order items, for which the company charges. However, your aircraft flight manual should have the supplement for each item of installed equipment. Start there as your resource.

That radio stack is functional. Not ancient.

For the KNS 80:
https://www.bendixking.com/servlet/com.honeywell.aes.utility.PDFDownLoadServlet?FileName=/TechPubs/repository/006-08307-0004_4.pdf

You may be able to research other publications here:
https://www.bendixking.com/PilotGuides?noheader=true

Before you go purchasing any supplements or guides, I'd certainly see what's available in the aircraft flight manual in the airplane you're flying. It's supposed to all be there.

[n5296s]

Most of that kit just needs a couple of minutes of explanation. For sure I've never read (or even seen) a manual for any of it, although I'd happily fly behind any of it.

There's one exception: the KNS80. This is a phenomenally complex device which is capable of all sorts of clever things, should you happen to be one of the three people on the planet who can work it. I did read a manual for it once, out of curiosity, but since the manual belonged to the KNS80 that was removed from my plane before I bought it, it was without any real practical use. It's a bit like reading the Excel manual from cover to cover - at the end you're left slack-jawed and dazed. Luckily, the only thing anyone actually uses them for is DME, which is pretty straightforward - and again can be learned with a couple of minutes of explanation.

So get your instructor to sit in the plane with you and run through it all. It's easy.

n5296s

[tomtom_91]

Ill have a chat to my instructor ! Manuals sound like they would make it more complicated to use then it achually is! :ok:

Tom

[S-Works]

There's one exception: the KNS80. This is a phenomenally complex device which is capable of all sorts of clever things, should you happen to be one of the three people on the planet who can work it.

LOL, that's a bit unfair to the old KNS. They are actually a great bit of kit and in the days before GPS they were the bees knees in radio Nav. You can create virtual waypoints by offsetting a VOR using a DME/RAD. A good installation at airways height can give you over 100 miles of coverage. We still have them in some of the Dorniers and they actually work. I have a .pdf version of the manual if anyone wants a copy.

Not to say that I would give me GPS up for them but if fitted and working they can be a handy tool!

[IO540]

The KNS80 is obsolete.

The major drawback is that it requires you to be within reception of the real VOR/DME which can be pretty limited at UK GA levels. Also France does not have DMEs in most of its VORs. For RNAV, a GPS is the only way to go.

[S-Works]

The KNS80 is obsolete.

Only in your opinion!

If it is fitted and working then no harm in learning to use it and making use of it. Apart from the RNAV function it is also a GS/LOC and pretty handy to know how to use if flying an approach.

I kow you are obsessed with GPS and think that everyone should rip all the old stuff out and replace it with the bells and whistles but for guys like Tomtom renting aircraft that is not an option and with a little effort he can add another tool to his toolbox.

Not saying he should not go out and buy himself a bloody good GPS but do try to be a little more open minded please Peter.

[Cusco]

We have the NS80 in our a/c which is the Narco equivalent and IMHO is a darn sight easier to use than the KNS 80 I'm using in a training a/c right now.

For starters the NS80 has 8 waypoints while the KNS only has four.

We still keep our airstrip coordinates in waypoint 8 all the time: Was very useful pre-GPS to find the strip in dodgy vis (weather or into setting sun before we got a new windscreen installed;) )

Worked well off CLN right down to about 800ft.

Cusco

[A and C]

Standby for the Bose-X vs IO540 knife fight !

[S-Works]

Standby for the Bose-X vs IO540 knife fight !

Nah! I have said my piece. I just tried to bring a bit of balance rather than the often blinkered GPS is the only tool bias that we often see. Peter is entitled to his opinion, I have given mine as a counter balance to it.

If he chooses to come back and throw personal stones as often happens then it is his call. Personally I am off to work in a minute flying in Spain again and a ferry flight for the next few days so don't have the time or inclination.

But thanks for the thought!! :ok:

[IO540]

Standby for the Bose-X vs IO540 knife fight !It's OK; I couldn't care less nowadays unless Mr "IT Director and Commercial Pilot" who "flew to the Channel Islands 300 times in 2 years" (in a C172) attacks me personally :)

My comments on the KNS80 stand. It works as a DME of course, and is worth using for that purpose if already fitted. But as I said its usefulness for its intended purpose (as an RNAV device which works by synthesising a virtual VOR/DME based on an offset from a real one) in the UK GA low level flying context, is very limited. It is also not FM Immune (unless antenna filters are installed) which means it cannot be used to fly a VOR/LOC instrument approach in most cases.

tomtom_91 - I have emailed you what I have. Hope your mailbox is big enough :)

[Cusco]

Of course when the NS 80 is not R-NAVing it powers the OBS/VOR 1

Ours is FM Immune and even when not RNAVing it provides 8 handy preset VOR (+ or - DME) frequencies.

Don't write the RNAV off just yet : I always fire it up alongside the GPS when I'm flying.

Cusco.

[S-Works]

See what I mean AandC not a bad word said against him and he comes out with the attacks. My kids were better behaved as toddlers. ;)

[Rodent1982]

While everyone else goes off on a tangent...

TomTom the most important thing at this stage is learning to fly the plane, not how to operate the radio's etc (apart from PTT and changing frequencies, which needs little more than a couple of minutes to learn).

Don't get caught up learning stuff you needn't learn. Get the flight manuals, read up on upcoming lessons, and practice for your Air Law exam or others if you've already taken that.

Hell, if you've taken all your ground exams then go for it. I'd personally prefer to practice flight planning than reading radio manuals, but each to their own.

[Katamarino]

Check your navigation. Your artificial horizon suggests that you may be in Australia.

[Rodent1982]

Honestly, people will start saying "Look's like you've broken the 500' rule there" next.

[Katamarino]

:} .

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think that the KNS80 remains a good reliable and sturdy VOR/LOC/GS/DME (at least in North America where we do not have the FM imune sillyness). The main drawback is the waypoint selector button (aka the suicide switch). It is very easy to inadvertantly have different nav data displayed from the frequency shown. I had this happen one day while flying IFR and started off flying in totally the wrong direction. After that I always left it in waypoint one and never used the RNAV function.

[IO540]

I am sure it works well in the USA, where for VFR purposes the CAS base is 18,000 feet, and the airways are nicely designed to have the MEAs based on continuous VOR/DME reception, with midway changeover points etc.

Here it isn't quite so good, hacking under the LTMA at 2400ft :)

Incidentally, has anybody found a KNS80 hack for France? One old pilot told me there is a hack whereby you can make use of a DME located away from the VOR, which would allow the use of a TDME on somebody's ILS. Short range though...

[n5296s]

I think that the KNS80 remains a good reliable and sturdy VOR/LOC/GS/DME
I don't disagree with that, and it's reasonably easy to use as such. It's just if you try to use it do all the RNAV stuff which is presumably the reason people bought them in the first place, c. 1980.

I guess you COULD (illegally) fly a GPS approach with a KNS80, but you probably wouldn't get a chance to kill yourself flying the illegal approach since you'd in all probability already have flown into something while twiddling the knobs to set up the waypoints...

n5296s

[IO540]

I guess you COULD (illegally) fly a GPS approach with a KNS80

I don't think this would work well because the accuracy is no better than that of the real physical VOR/DME being transposed, and from say 20nm away you would quite possibly be way off the airport - say 2 miles. Perhaps even worse than an NDB approach ;)

The other weird thing is that you can get a KNS80 installation approved for BRNAV and fly airways with it. On practically every IFR flight I've done, I've been sent to waypoints which were 100nm and occassionally 200nm away, so anybody trying to fly such a DCT with VOR-based RNAV is going to have their work cut out because they will have to pick off a number of navaids along the track. But that would be 100% legal ;) IFR GPS is the only practical way to fly IFR nowadays.

[BackPacker]

IFR GPS is the only practical way to fly IFR nowadays.

I've been wondering about that. Of course if you file your aircraft SG/S, you're going to get "Direct XXXXX", where XXXXX is a lat/long-only waypoint 200 miles away. But what if you just file S/S? On the one occasion I flew IFR (with an instructor, in an S/S aircraft, no GPS) we were neatly cleared from VOR to VOR. Do controllers pay attention to the equipment field in your FPL, and base their instructions on them?

[tomtom_91]

Ill stick with the Air Law manual.... lol

[IO540]

I've been wondering about that. Of course if you file your aircraft SG/S, you're going to get "Direct XXXXX", where XXXXX is a lat/long-only waypoint 200 miles away. But what if you just file S/S? This Q was asked in the ATC forum years ago; I recall.

The answer was the expected No; IFR controllers don't care for the declared equipment. I used to declare S/S for all IFR and got long DCTs then. That's how traffic is managed these days. The whole thing is an RNAV point to point nav exercise. Occassionally the waypoint is a real VOR (or NDB) but this means nothing as they are freely handed out even if you are way outside its reception range.

Also, above FL095, BRNAV is mandatory and the only way this can be achieved is either INS (inertial navidation) or GPS. So there you are: GPS is de facto mandatory...

IIRC, Australia was the one place where ATC cared for what you declare in the equipment list.

On the one occasion I flew IFR (with an instructor, in an S/S aircraft, no GPS) we were neatly cleared from VOR to VOR.

What level was this at, and where? If it was a short and "obviously" training flight, they might have done that.

[BackPacker]

What level was this at, and where? If it was a short and "obviously" training flight, they might have done that.

Indeed. Rotterdam-Antwerp, at night, at 3000 feet to Antwerp and back at FL60. In an S/S airplane, flight declared as I/X, as I recall.

[A and C]

All this talk of Area Nav and what you can use is dependant on the time you have available.

I have flown direct to an entry point for the Helsinki FIR from just north of Norwich with just VOR/DME fixes. But this was with two pilots, + me running the Flight Engineers panel and taking "fixes" from abeam radio aids an updating the heading.
That is a low workload situation, so very safe because we had the time to give to the navigation.

I would not try it single pilot in the London TMA!

The KNS80 is still usable if you have good VOR/DME cover and a low workload but in today's busy IFR ATC environment give me GPS any day (preferably two GPS+ two FMC's with DME (X5) update).

In short the KNS80 is now only good for short range RNAV not because it cant find a point in space but because the ATC environment has moved on.