What to do with BA miles as I wont fly with them again!

[profot]

I was wondering what I can do with a not unsubstantial quantity of air miles I have accumulated with BA that I do not want.

I had intended to make some lovely holidays with them but have been treated so badly by BA recently that I will never step foot on one of their aircraft or part with another penny of my money again for their coffers.

Any suggestions?

[Seat62K]

Log on to your Executive Club "home page" and click on "spending BA Miles" for ideas.
P.S. I'm intrigued as to why you won't fly BA again. Please tell us!

[profot]

It seems they are only useful to use for flights, I have always used them for F upgrades in the past, but anything that gives BA any revenue in the future frankly churns my stomach!

It is nothing too substantial, they have done things to irritate me over the years but recently I asked them to change a date on a flight because of a very valid reason and they refused to do it saying I would have to purchase another ticket and forego this one, bearing in mind it was a Sydney Club fare so not a cheap ticket ( second one this month too!).

Although I appreciate a non changeable fare is just that and they are within their rights, I feel that after spending in excess of 60K with them on fares in the past 3 years a little flexibility when ones Father has been given days to live was not too much to ask for! Apparently it is.. No more money for BA from me.


Nice seat number btw

[Capetonian]

I believe you can donate them to charity. Try this Donate Airmiles - LoveToKnow Charity (http://charity.lovetoknow.com/Donate_Airmiles) or similar.

I feel the same about BA after they treated us with total contempt some years ago and compounded the situation by lying about what had actually happened when the dispute was escalated. I also had a lot of IB miles, and that's another airline I hope never to set foot on again. I was able to use my IB miles to send my mother in law on holiday!

[happyjack]

Profot.
Easy this one: spend them on flights/upgrades on other one world airlines. If you are frequently going to Australia you can redeem on Qantas.

[simfly]

or transfer them to me so I can book my honeymoon next month :E

[geoff1248]

Try ebay, I think you will find that there is a market for them there.

[smala01]

I've just spent some BA miles on AA getting to and around the US.

Additionally miles in general usually go a lot further once inside the US as there is no silly tax to pay!

Smala01

[Rainboe]

Ah! So you believe because you bought some other tickets, you don't feel the ticket change regulations should apply to you? I see! It's OK it applies to everybody else, but not you, and that is your definition of being 'treated so badly'?

As an outsider, one thinks maybe BA is better off not having such a customer! Try that little one elsewhere and see how far you get!

[UniFoxOs]

Well, I bought the cheapest tickets I could get on Emirates, thought they were non-changeable, non-refundable etc. Fell ill in Oz and was medically unfit to fly back, rang Emirates, one free change of date (for both of us) and I was advised to keep the booking open until I was certain I could fly back as there was a (relatively small) charge if I wanted to change it again.

Don't see why other airlines don't do the same.

UFO

[Gibon2]

one thinks maybe BA is better off not having such a customer

Clearly BA thinks so too - but it is commercially nonsensical (assuming Profot is giving us a fair account of the situation). Tossing away a big-paying J-class passenger, especially in the current business travel climate, is sheer unbridled lunacy. As has been noted, other airlines allow changes for genuine compassionate reasons - there may be hoops to jumps through (medical certificates, etc), but they do it - and even for ordinary Y class passengers.

Profot will be snapped up by CX (you can use your points on them, much better than QF in my experience), SQ, EK and others plying the Kangaroo Route. BA can ponder their empty Club World cabins, plummeting revenue, and wonder why.

And this is only one of several recent threads about BA customer relations decisions that defy any rational commercial explanation. What is going on?

[Scumbag O'Riley]

I think you have to be pragmatic here and not do anything that might appear to be cutting your nose off to spite your face. If you refused to fly on an airline because they treated you with contempt then you would be going everywhere by train. You have paid for those miles and not 'spending' them on BA services instead of using hard cash is exactly what BA want you to do.

We are not great fans of BA at all, but we have >500k miles in our household account, and they are worth money. So we have started using them for late bookings within Europe. Even with their deceptive fuel surcharge they are now almost competitive with the Locos on last minute flights.

You can also put them in a household account so family members can use them if you don't want to. Or just use them to buy tickets for other people.

I certainly wouldn't throw them away.

[profot]

Rainboe

I did mention that I understand they were well within their rights, I just thought that perhaps a good customer who has exceptional circumstances in the form of a dying father might show a little leeway on one occasion.

Perhaps I am wrong.

[jetset lady]

profot,

I am in no way doubting you when you say that your father was extremely ill, but the number of times that airlines are told such things has to be heard to be believed.

Take the situation that I had a while back, when the aircraft went tech. Another one of our A/C was due to leave for LHR in the 40 minutes or so and it had approximately 30 spare seats. One of the ground staff was heard to mention this by a passenger at the front, while we were trying to get as many passengers sorted as we could. It spread through the aircraft like wildfire and suddenly, it seemed that virtually every passenger onboard was going to a funeral/wedding/sick relative etc. I find it hard to believe that all those people were in fact, telling the truth.

In thread recently, someone mentioned that we should show more leeway, initiative and common sense. I personally, would love to, but experience has shown me that all three have a habit of coming back and biting you in the rear. Give an inch and many will insist on taking a mile.

I know this doesn't help you now, but hopefully, it may go some way to you understanding why such a stance may have been taken. It seems that you may have paid for the past behaviour of many selfish people. Fair? No. But then again, life never was fair.

UniFoxOs,

If you had been declared medically unfit to fly, along with all the relevant documentation, then that is a completely different scenario and I would have thought that most airlines would not charge to change the date of travel under those circumstances. No doubt, I will now be deluged by posts from all those that can't wait to prove me wrong! :rolleyes:

[radeng]

Jetsetlady,

The sensible thing to do, before saying 'No', is to look at the customer's profile. Has he/she flown a lot? Have they spent lots of dosh on Business/First recently? If you see a 'Yes', the start kicking in flexibility, even if it means bending the rules. Especially in today's climate, where you REALLY don't want to lose Business or First Class PAX to other airlines just because you followed the rules.

I had the situation last year where the last flight from Nice was cancelled. (and I'm on a 'No changes' 'D' class ticket). BA found me a hotel room, but on getting to the gate for the next morning's flight, my Club Europe aisle seat had turned into a Euro Traveller window seat - and there was no room in Club Europe all of a sudden. In spite of 5 years of holding a Gold Card. We did a deal where I took the next flight in Club Europe in 1D (which I was originally in) and BA paid for all the 'phone calls. And I got £50. But if I'd had an onwards flight to catch, it would have been my last flight on BA. Plus a compensation claim.

So flexibility is even more important today, As they say on American ' We know you have a choice when it comes to air travel'. P*ss off the customers and they (and the airline) will be gone tomorrow - like PanAm and Empire Airlines and BCal......(which last I don't miss at all!)

[jetset lady]

radeng,

And maybe flexibility would be more likely if people didn't take the proverbial quite so regularly! Take buggies on board as a pefect example. Technically, they are supposed to be in the hold. We don't often have room for them on shorthaul aircraft, but in the past, if we had a light load, I'd try to be helpful by accepting them on whilst reiterating that it was only because the aircraft was half empty. Most of my colleagues would do the same. Then it slowly dawned on me that I was spending more and more time arguing with parents who were still determined to bring their ridiculously oversized buggies onboard, despite it being obvious that the aircraft was full to overflowing. And their reasoning was always, "Well they let us on our last flight!" It seems I wasn't the only one, so guess what. Now we have a blanket ban. As usual, the idiots have ruined it for all.

Do you get what I'm trying to say here? Yes, profot was in an awful situation. One that I wouldn't wish upon anyone. And yes, he was obviously someone who had spent a lot of money with us. And yes, in an ideal world, his past history would have been looked at and the appropriate decision made. But repeated abuse of the system means that the ability to be flexible has now been taken from us.

As for your situation, I can't see what else BA could have done. They put you up in a hotel and, when there was no Club seat available for you on the flight out, probably because they were now trying to accomodate two passenger loads on one aircraft, they offered you either direct travel out in Euro Traveller or a Club seat on the next available flight. If you had have been connecting and needed to take the first flight, you would have been compensated for the fact that you had not got the Club seat you had paid for, as you would have been if your connection had been on the day of the original flight. That is standard. What more would you have expected them to do? Yes, the original flight was cancelled which was a pain for all involved, but I'm sorry, things go wrong in aviation, just as they do any other form of transport. We're not miracle workers and there's only so much we can do!

[profot]

Jetset Lady, I can only imagine how frustrating it must be and I know customers continually take the p**s and want everything for nothing but in this case they were not even remotely interested.

I am not sure of the exact words but it went along the lines of is he actually dead yet? No? then in that case we cant help you you will have to purchase another ticket but try to look at it that you only paid GBP3k for this one so if you buy another one it will only seem like paying a little over a fully flexible fare!

I could have very easily emailed or posted them a copy of the surgeons prognosis for my Father and actually rather than trying to get a refund I thought the cheapest option for BA would be to give me a different date later in the year allowing them to re sell my ticket, I did this out of concern for them losing revenue in these tough times.

I know that everyone is at a scam, and i know that if I wanted to be able to change my ticket at will then I should have bought the fully flexible fare but these were exceptional circumstances and I just thought perhaps a little customer loyalty would have meant something, I do not expect anything above anyone else as Rainboe so abruptly suggested, I would like to think BA would have helped anyone else out too!

Anyway, I didn't really come on here to slag BA off, I was just trying to find a way to get rid of my miles.

Thanks for your input

[jetset lady]

....I am not sure of the exact words but it went along the lines of is he actually dead yet? No? then in that case we cant help you you will have to purchase another ticket but try to look at it that you only paid GBP3k for this one so if you buy another one it will only seem like paying a little over a fully flexible fare!...



profot,

You have me there. I admit to being BA crew and being the loyal type, I will try to defend the company wherever I feel it's justified, but the above is pretty hard to defend. Those questions were insensitive in the extreme and I can only say I'm sorry. Too late, I know. :(

[Gibon2]

Jetset Lady, you raise some good points and your tales of woe I think well illustrate the pitfalls involved in exercising discretion that may have led the industry to steadily withdraw discretionary authority (the story of the passengers who all suddenly remembered they were travelling to weddings, funerals and dying relatives really made me chuckle - I can just picture the scene...).

But it's important to remember that "discretion" here means (or should mean) discretion to make an on-the-spot decision in the best interests of the airline - which will not always be the same as the best interests of an individual customer. In other words, if some customers must be made unhappy, you should have the discretion to choose the ones whose unhappiness will cost the airline the least. This is a different calculation to deciding who will be most unhappy, or trying to judge the respective merits of competing sob stories.

And this is why profot's story, and the similar tales in other threads, puzzle me. They just make no sense, even when judged from the most hard-nosed mercenary perspective.

Let's take a closer look at this, going right back to basics. The purpose of an airline is to make a profit. The purpose of an airline's terms and conditions is to help it make a profit. They have no other purpose. If a situation should arise where rigid adherence to the terms and conditions will cost an airline more than making an exception to them, what is the point of not making the exception? Adhering to the terms and conditions is not an end in itself.

Now, looking at profot's case, we have:

1. A regular business-class passenger, who has racked up GBP 60,000 worth of travel in the past few months, who regularly travels on a long-haul route that is also served by many other airlines, several of which offer levels of comfort and service equal to or better than BA, at similar prices.

2. A request from this passenger essentially for a favour: to change a non-changeable ticket, valued at about GBP 3000. He has no history of asking for similar things, or otherwise being difficult or demanding.

Putting aside the reason for asking for the favour, and the associated compassionate considerations, here is the calculation:

1. If BA sticks to its guns and insists that the passenger buy another ticket, what are the chances that he will buy it from BA? Answer: zero. So no extra sale.

2. BA keeps the original GBP 3000, and has a chance (but no guarantee) of re-selling the seat. Possible gain here: between 0 and, say, GBP 6000.

3. Original passenger is annoyed and disappointed, and makes the not-very-painful decision to fly CX, SQ, EK, EY, etc, in future. Based on his past travel pattern, BA can expect to lose something in the vicinity of GBP 30000 per year.

Do the sums! Does it make the slightest sense? What do BA staff who are being asked to work for free or take unpaid leave think of business decisions like this?

[Kelly Hopper]

"The answer is no, now what's the question?"
That is the disease running through so called UK customer services.

Get out of the UK and see how others deal with PR problems. It doesn't always work but at least someone will use initiative and try to find a way.

No-one cares in England anymore. It is a terrible state of affairs and just adds to the woes of the state of the country's finances and makes it the most frustrating place to live in the world! 'Glad I no longer do.

[manintheback]

As an outsider, one thinks maybe BA is better off not having such a customer! Try that little one elsewhere and see how far you get!

Continental at Houston. Biz class. Missed flight due to 5 hour i/b delay (on BA as it happens). Not a through ticket. Non Flex. Changed Wife and I tickets no problem.

Virgin. Missed flight Narita to LHR. Upper class. Non Flex ticket. My fault , got the wrong train. Put me on the next flight out no charge.

Virgin 2 non flex uclass tickets to Vegas to watch the boxing. Fight put back 2 weeks. I asked - no problem -we went 2 weeks later.

Air Canada. Exec First. Missed connector LHR to Toronto. Again not a through ticket, not flex. Again next flight no problem.

So the answer is, try it and in my experience you always get there (except on BA in this case).

[barstow]

Absolutely agree with "manintheback".

Personally done the same recently and often on several other airlines.

BA, or "Bad Attitude" as I like to call them seem to have the knack of indifference and customer contempt down to a fine art. The fact that the guy's father was ill just makes it unfortunately a very sad reinforcing proof of how pervasive the attitude is.

Prediction: KLM buys them out in a fire sale and shapes it up. They simply can't exist the way they treat customers. :D

[VS-LHRCSA]

This one of the reasons why I'm glad I'm not in customer relations anymore. A few years ago, I dealt with a lady who had booked two seats to SYD with miles a year in advance (the only way you can with miles) but during that year, she was diagnosed with cancer. Her doctor advised not to travel until after her treatment, which is understandable.

When she went to cancel her tickets, she was told that she would lose the miles. She wrote letters, supplied evidence but was told no refunds on miles, end of.

Her case sat in the BA system for 6 months until it was escalated to Willie Walsh - ie: Me. It took all of 30 seconds to re-credit her miles. I then wrote to her apologising for the treatment she had received - not one person expressed any concern for her health - wished her well with the treatment and sent her flowers.

It's a pity profot has to be the victim of a short sighted policy that doesn't account for the circumstances of its valued customers.

[radeng]

Jetsetlady,

In my case, my Club Class seat turned into a Economy seat between checking in and boarding. So they must have known at check in what the loading was likely to be.

I haven't had any other real problems with BA, I'm glad to say, although it does seem silly now that we have a policy of 2 + 2 seating in Club Europe to not have the wider seats on the A-C side of the aircraft as we used to do when it was 2+3. I know the 3 seat side isn't flexible, but the 2 seat side stil is....

I do find BA cabin crew and T5 and PHX check-in people the best of all the airlines I've flown, although the suggestion that one flies too much gets worrying when you walk into the lounge and they greet you by name before looking at your ticket! I do have grave doubts about the management that sets inflexible policies, though. So, I am led to understand, do many BA staff.....

[Pax Vobiscum]

Barstow, I had to grin at the idea of KLM (or Air France as we must now call them) teaching BA staff their customer service techniques. Repeat after me: "issh not possshible ..."
[With apologies in advance to my several Dutch friends and colleagues.]

[jetset lady]

radeng,

You know what? I'm giving up. I always try to defend BA, I really do. After all, I work for them and I'm nothing, if not loyal. And we do have a lot of very good staff. Time after time, someone will post, regarding a problem they've had. I'll be there, with my BA hat on, trying to come up with a reason as to why things have been done the way they have and then the person will add a little more to their story. Slowly, bit by bit, it'll dawn on me. The issue has got as far as, either, our bl**dy useless Customer Relations department or our reservations department and that's where it'll stay for the next decade or two....again!

I've spoken to many Pprune members behind the scenes, to see if I can help in anyway. I've been to Waterside, I've sent emails, I phoned the entire company directory. And what happens? Precisely nothing!

But you know the really stupid thing? I can't seem to stop! I keep on gathering up my examples and emailing them to whoever I can think of. They keep patting me on the head and telling me that they're grateful to me for bringing it to their attention and that'll they'll get onto it immediately. And I, in my seemingly everlasting naiviety, will trot off thinking I may, at last, have made a difference for at least one of our passengers. God, I must be really dense! :{

So for all those that have suffered at the hands of our CR dept, I'm sorry! I've tried. Many of us have tried and, more fool us, we'll probably carry on trying. They may not care, but we do!

As for the "fantastic" new CE seating arrangement, don't even get me started! :ugh:

A very tired and disillusioned JSL :(

P.S. Why do I get the feeling that I'm really going to regret posting this after a hard day and early start.....

[Crepello]

Hmm, this thread's converging with the parallel FlyBE discussion, which also has its share of "customers" miffed at an airline's refusal to waive contractual provisions.

Somebody please enlighten me: Why would anybody buy a flexible ticket, if similar flexibility can be bargained into cheaper fares on production of a good story? I'm all ears - this could save my employer millions.

[profot]

Im not sure sure I was looking for the same flexibility as a full flex fare, I was asking BA for a little leeway for an exceptional circumstance which frankly was not a 'good story' but in fact the death of my dear father rather than I fancied flying on a wednesday instead of a thursday.. quite a difference in my book

[Crepello]

Profot, my condolences to you, with apologies for my insensitivity.

Sadly, not everybody is quite so honest when requesting changes from their airline. Without checks and balances, the case for flexible tickets is much diminished. My question, therefore, remains.

[profot]

No problem at all, I know only too well what customers are like being in a service industry myself.

I think it is time to end this thread as it has become somewhat pointless. I had no intention of beating up BA or moaning about how hard done by i am, rather I was looking for some good ideas to spend my rather large quantities of air miles but I have successfully worked that out now as well

[MarcJF]

Legally BA was correct, morally wrong. That's why this organisation is in the mess that it is, needs a thorough clear out of dead wood, of which there is lots. I doubt they will ever be a propper airline again, would be a shame if GB lost a national carrier but that's the way it's going, fast.

[VS-LHRCSA]

Jetsetlady, I don't think it's fair to say that customer relations don't care (at least at Waterside) it's just like Radeng mentioned, many BA staff DO care but are bound by restrictive policies.

I can relate to what you say about helping out - I've been PM'd many times on here - to the point where you are genuinely saddened and frustrated by not being able to get anywhere.

A tip for those who are having troubles with BA customer relations - write to Willie Walsh directly. The letter goes to a specialised team. It may take longer to get a response but you should get a quicker resolution once your letter has been picked up.

Another tip is if you have had problems and a crew member, or ground staff member has tried to help but to no avail (ie wanted to but couldn't for the reasons above) it would help when you write in to name the person. A copy is sent to that person's manager which means another set of eyes is looking at your complaint letter. It may not help you in this instance but helps with the bigger picture.

[radeng]

JSL,

Maybe if they cleared out management (Ha!) from Waterside and promoted some check in staff and CC and even flying crew from the sharp end to run things, it would shake up the operation and be back to what those at the sharp end really want to see.

I wonder if they've started the 'empowerment' idea for staff, which usually gives responsibility without any power at all?

Of course, often in Europe, the 'sharp end' people aren't very good, and that's because although they have BA uniforms, they are Servisair or whoever, and BA is juts one of the airlines they deal with. Sad, because it gives the wrong impression when they're clueless or awkward - people who don't know think they are dealing with BA staff.

Still, I expect to be flying BA enough to renew the Gold card again next year - for year seven.

[barstow]

I hope it doesn't sound trite, or sarcastic, but it's actually quite nice to see there's at least 2 BA employees who are restoring my faith in BA's humanity - kudos to you! I didn't think that it was possible for 100% of an airline to be brainwashed into machine mentality...

Pax Vobiscum, I wholeheartedly agree - the tradition of Germanic service has always been a reputation based on tolerance-bordering-on-contempt, but has been rapidly changing over the last 10 years. I see the shape-up concept of a takeover solely based on a customer responsive group, which for survival AF/KLM has to be, and which BA never has been, nor required to be due to their "glass monopoly".

Crepello, a small amount of flexibility costs an airline in the big picture nothing. To lose a regular pax for saving the office work of verifying his "good story" (one phone call to his doctor with family's permission to disclose) and changing his booking vs. losing a customer is just bad business. Airlines run badly don't survive, especially in a competitive, and low margin environment. Simple as that, and at least 2 employees here understand their jobs rely on that fact.

radeng, It is immaterial if the personnel are Servisair under contract from BA. If BA aren't aware their contractors aren't performing to an acceptable standard, then they aren't getting value for their money (whatever it is).

[Jofm5]

Crepello, a small amount of flexibility costs an airline in the big picture nothing.

You have never obviously run a business as a going concern.

We can observe in this example a high fare paying pax being peeved because the airline has followed the contract to the letter and now thinking they dont want to deal with the airline.

If you look at it from the other side, a business is run to make a profit - the contract is entered into on the basis of moneys paid for service offered. If you want to deviate from that contract you can either expect it to be cancelled and a new contract put in place or for penalties to be applied.

Business is business - life is life, if a member of your family is mortally ill it is a tough situation but should you really be expecting a business to finance your repatriation ?

No matter how you look at it a business there to provide a service for a profit to its shareholders.

We seem to forget that compassion of people within a business may gain some leeway, this is an exception to a rule not an obligation.

If you expect compassion on rebooking a flight then make sure that is written into the rules when booking the ticket. If you accept a contract on the terms given dont be so upset when entity you have the contract upholds the contract.

Not being funny but if the situations were reversed would you be happy if your flight was brought it forward a day because of personal issues with the flight crew ?

Flexibility in any contract is there when it suits both parties - if you want flexibilty for a flight then pay for it - whilst everyone within reason has compassion you cannot expect everyone else to underwrite your needs in exceptional circumstances regardless of what you have done previously.

I aplogise if I have offended but life is hard, business is hard and no business will succeed by writing off costs from being nice.

[radeng]

Jofm5

Business is hard. There are times when it's worth while taking a small loss to avoid a much bigger one from losing the repeat business. Sometimes, the loss is even bigger because there's no repeat business from that customer and he persuades others not to deal with you.

[Crepello]

Jofm5 sums it up nicely. Sorry guys, but the bottom line is this: You can run a competitive, low margin, mass market business. Or you can pitch for service, catering to each customer's whim at a price that reflects the costs incurred. But you can't do full service at low price - not profitably, not sustainably.

Crepello, a small amount of flexibility costs an airline in the big picture nothing.

Had my regular airline demonstrated such leniency, I could have saved over $10,000 from flexible fares - just this year, just for one pax. That scales up to a lot more than 'nothing' in the big picture.

Many service providers (utilities, banks, telecomms) ditch hundreds of 'nuisance' customers annually, precisely because they've become liabilities - the cost of their requests exceeds the profits they generate. It's nice to imagine an airline that's staffed to investigate every request, calling doctors, corroborating with family members, ensuring legal compliance and preparing all the documentation - but who would pay for this capability? Many airlines can barely afford even their current payrolls.

Three groups seem to be emerging from this discussion, namely (nay provocatively):

True 'high roller' customers that airlines must - and do - bend over backwards to accommodate and delight.
Regular travellers, who the airline may further assist out of goodwill, but who shouldn't take this as granted.
Occasional customers, whose marginal value provides incremental gains but whom, come next year's holiday, will continue to favour the cheapest provider.


Maybe some on this thread aspire to the first group, but are piqued to be stuck a little lower down the table! :E

[Juud]

Profot, first of all, very sorry indeed about your father.

Further to radeng, Jofm5 and Crepello.

A business can not show compassion. An individual can.
An individual can only show compassion if he/she has the power to do so.
A power derived form being trusted enough to make a judgment call by the management layer above.
For an employee to be trusted enough to make a judgment call, that employee needs to have enough brains & experience to do so.
An employee that has enough brains and experience to make a judgment call, will cost more than an employee who is able to do no more than follow rules.
With everything in the airlines except management salaries and bonuses subject to cost saving, any manager wanting to stay employed will opt for the cheapest possible employees still able to do the job to the minimum standards as stated in the written rules.
Hence what happened to profot.
Similar to what happens daily to tens of thousands of passengers at the hands of badly managed, under-skilled and maxed-out staff.

The industry, barely profitable at the best of times, is once again in the doldrums. Different types of airlines are using different tactics in their bid to survive.
Few of these tactics are pretty for either staff or pax.

[Gibon2]

Crepello and Jofm5:

You may be right in general, but in this case - as I pointed out at length in my post #19 - the decision made no commercial sense. Clearly you can't regularly grant such requests, otherwise (as you rightly argue) nobody would ever buy a flexible ticket. But this was a first request from a regular business-class traveller (let's put him in your second category, Crepello) who has many alternative service providers.

It simply isn't worth saying no. And that is a purely commercial calculation, quite apart from the humanity and common decency angle. As Jofm5 said:

Flexibility in any contract is there when it suits both parties

This was such a case: BA just failed to recognise their own commercial interest. And consquently they've lost revenue to the competition.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Of course companies can show "compassion" (whatever that is), but only if the directors decide to. The amount of "Compassion" is shown by the policies the directors dictate and the managers implement. The minions do what they are told.

And thats how it should be.

This is when frequent flier status should be taken into account. Some airlines have good frequent flier schemes, some don't. You need to know about this before you decide to spend serious coin with any airline. Who knows whether BA made the right commercial call on this occasion, I don't and I don't think anybody here does either.

[radeng]

JSL has it right. Cut costs too far, especially on staff, and reap the result. You are better off with the more experienced dedicated staff who are paid well enough that they are capable and not pi**ed off with their management, because they'll often do that bit extra unpaid and they have the bottom line in mind. Plus good staff don't need so many mediocre managers, just one or two good ones.

Sadly, beancounters don't think that way, probably because many of them are mediocre - as an example, look what happened to GEC-Marconi.

[flyingfemme]

It used to be commonly held that repeat business was much cheaper for a company than new business.........is that not still the case?

A business may have a primary purpose of making money but, surely, it should have a secondary purpose of staying around long enough to keep making money? Even if there is a little less money each, and every, year?

The world has become a very short-term place; witness this "global credit crunch" caused by people only concerned with the next pound of profit when they should be thinking about the next 10/20 years of profits.

I shall carry on running my own business in the same old way - I want the mortgage to be paid until it ends, not just next month!

[eliptic]

Prediction: KLM buys them out in a fire sale and shapes it up. They simply can't exist the way they treat customers. :D

I take that as a joke,,KLM is not one sense better on customer relations, especially not after join the even more arrogant AF

If you want proper service use Asian airliners

[Wannabe Flyer]

Fly about 500K miles a year. Stopped Flying BA 12 years ago for about the same issues plus more as mentioned by the posters. I agree it is about the individual and the powers they are given.

I feel they train their staff to be rude and impolite and treat every passenger with suspicion.

Either way I am sure they don't miss me and I don't miss them. :rolleyes:

PS: I have had run ins with BA staff from JFK to DEL to BKK

Not a lot of fun and in 2 of the situations found it better to re book on alternate carrier then to fly them.

[eliptic]

As an outsider, one thinks maybe BA is better off not having such a customer! Try that little one elsewhere and see how far you get!

Rainboe, You may be a great Pilot/captain BUT running a business or in other customer related areas i think you are a catastrophe.

Your attitude to people around you gives exactly the story's given in this tread.

Please stay in cockpit and lock the door

(From one who can´t afford arrogances to my customers)

[profot]

I'd like to defend the BA ground and flight crew a little, I certainly have always felt very well looked after both on the ground and particularly in the air. It was the management that niggled me.

But I am also in the wrong, I should have booked a fully flexible fare if I found it such a hard pill to swallow loosing my company 3K. I never expected the circumstance to happen to me therefore was quite comfortable with my restricted ticket, although ultimately just a touch surprised by BA's response to a reasonably good customer who books quite a lot of J and F fares per year long haul.

That is the way of the world these days I guess. I better start revising how I do business with my small company, that 300K deposit I gave back 2 years ago because a clients wife was diagnosed with cancer I should clearly have kept in this day and age and spent on some fully flexible fares.

[Crepello]

Cheese with your whine, profot? ;) :)

It's really very simple: If you want flexibility, pay for it. If you don't, don't. If you occasionally change your plan, appeal to the airline for special consideration. But especially in tough times, don't be surprised if they insist on enforcing conditions of the contract you initiated.

Do they risk losing a customer? Sure. But long term survival demands short term profitability. As I've said before, if the customer's partial to bending the rules, it's a customer that's costing them money. And that's a customer they'd rather send to their competitors.

[Crepello]

With apologies for double-posting: Reading back, flyingfemme raises the Value Dilemma - exploit your market in the short term, or develop it in the long? In practice, the maximum Net Present Value is a trade-off between the two.

Here's another side of the coin: Wanton dismissal of enforceable contracts may sound cosy, but generally threatens incomes, jobs and investor confidence. This is not a sound business model.

[profot]

Crepello

You are quite right, I am whineing, I shall stop forthwith

[Nick Riviera]

Crepello

You are suggenting that it is good business for an airline to lose the custom of a regular traveller because they want to change a non-flexible ticket due to the most exceptional of circumstances? Astonishing.

[andrewwordsworth]

Crepello remind me never to hire you to run a business. BA's continuous pettiness and ineffective computer systems, lose them customer after customer I have earned 2.5k tier points 6 of the last 7 years. Now I have told my travel agent LH for everything.

I have worked for big companies and small and I know the secret of running effective businesses is to empower your staff with information systems to allow them to make effective decisions and then give them the power to make decisions.

I ordered a rather nice bottle of wine at dinner last night in a good restaurant, I tasted it and thought it needed air. After about twenty minutes it became clear I didn't like it and the somellier took it away, without any fuss, and got me a bottle of something else. Would that have worked in a little chef- probably not. The question is whether BA wants to be 3 star or little chef I think the answer is clear.

The trouble with treating your gold customers badly when they buy non flex tickets is that they then don't fly with you when they have the budget to fly full price.

[Paul2412]

You could always give them to me!

[Crepello]

andrewwordsworth I can see where you're coming from, but I don't see the connection with the example you quote - the wine did not meet your requirements, so was replaced by one that did.

Nick Riviera, the whole point is that these days, it seems every traveller claims exceptional circumstances for every exemption request. You're suggesting its good business to service these regardless and erode the premium market? Astonishing.

I've been in a similar situation. It didn't even occur to me to call the airline, as I knew my ticket was non-flex. I 'manned up' and paid up for a new single fare. Perhaps I should have flashed my plat-card and demanded 'something for nothing'?

[Nick Riviera]

No, Crepello, you don't get it. It is called 'discretion'. A particular traveller, one who spends a lot of money with BA and has made no previous requests in this vein, has made a request to change a non-flex ticket in exceptional circumstances. It would not take a genius to work out that it would not be good business to piss this guy off on this occasion. A small gesture on the airline's side, on this occasion, would have kept the business.

What you have done in similar circumstances is neither here nor there, no matter how 'manly' you were. You think this is good business on BA's part. As I have said, astonishing.

[Crepello]

Take a few deep breaths, Nick. It's clear that my opinion differs from yours. This does not mean that I "don't get it", nor does it render past reactions irrelevant. I don't expect you and I will agree on this, but I would appreciate a little courtesy.

IMHO the customer should not feel 'pissed off'. He made the decision to save money on a discounted ticket. He's now faced with different circumstances and needs to purchase some flexibility. He could beg the courtesy of an exception, but shouldn't presume this will be granted. Ultimately, an airline's survival depends on protecting premium markets against freeloaders.

[Capetonian]

No Crepello, you don't get it, or you are just arguing for the sake of being contrary. I suspect the latter, not that it matters.

You overlook a fundamental concept of customer service which applies in all sectors of service industries. Today's 'little guy' might well be tomorrow's big customer who can influence positively or negatively the flow of business to an organisation.

Years ago I went to open an account at a bank in Rondebosch, close to the University of Cape Town. Because I was young and casually dressed, they assumed I was a penniless student on the scrounge and treated me like crap. I went to another bank and opened accounts for a new and ultimately succesful business I was starting. Over the years family and customers also opened accounts at that bank and we now have a long, mutually beneficial, and happy association. As for the other one, I wouldn't set foot in it.

Recently I went to a restaurant in Palma where I was planning to host a large party (about 70 people) for a reunion of ex-colleagues. Mostly wealthy folk. We (myself and a male friend) were treated like crap, given a bad table, badly served, and I was given lip when I complained that the bottle of wine I'd ordered, and it was not a cheap one, was bought to the table opened instead of being uncorked in front of us. That restaurant not only lost the group of 70 people but also the possibility of any future business from most of the fairly influential people we know who live in, or visit, Majorca on a regualr basis.

I can give you numerous other examples of related situations.

You may think these are poor analogies, you may think that dogmatically sticking to the rules does not equate to poor customer service, but in my book it often does. The guy who buys a cheapie 'fly it or bin it' airline ticket might well be on his first trip with that carrier, or it might be a private trip but if he's well treated he'll give his company business to that carrier.

If you work in a customer service related area of an airline, please tell me which one, as I'll make sure to avoid it!

[Non-Driver]

Methinks Crepello must be a lawyer, albeit one with a reasonable grasp of business drivers (if not customer retention propositions) given the numerous references to "contract" betwixt pax & airline. I doubt whether many punters consider purchasing a flight ticket a "contract" (I'm in Purchasing and even to me its not my primary thought). What they do is pay a fair price for the service and (in)flexibility they are getting. Most won't read the small print. People who moan about inflexibility on Ryanair/FlyBE etc clearly don't grasp their business concept but a frequent flyer for BA can't be bracketed the same. The sad thing in this case is that many years ago I worked for BA and even though I wasn't in a customer facing environment we all had to go on courses outilining the importance of retained business vs new business and the 10x factor of sales effort of the latter. I'm sure back then the majority would have made the call to bend the rules. I know times are tight and cash is king but the same rules apply if you can distinguish between genuine circumstances and freeloaders. The latter certainly aren't going to give you premium value repeat business.

Getting back to the original topic, use your miles with other OneWorld carriers or book a BA flight that Jetset Lady is crewing, I'm sure you'll have a better experience.

[Munnyspinner]

Oh joy!

I wasn't going to say anything here as it has probably already been said but after 6 weeks afloat without any thoughts of BA or PPrune I thought I should just post a few thoughts.

Profot - you justifiably feel that BA have treated you unfairly -even though they have stuck by the letter of the law ( their ticketing rules ). Being a "frequent flyer" used to mean occasionally, when things didn't go according to plan and/ or we cocked up slightly, having a gold clubcard would persuade BA to just go that extra mile to sort things out - even when they didn't need to. Sorry, that was the old profitable, world's favourite airline etc. BA , not wee willie walsh's big bad budget BA.

Things have changed. Loyalty, and I note that you too were quick to divest any you may have had for BA, counts for nothing - which is perhaps why BA have posted a Q1 loss for the fist time in 22 years. Despite bemoaning the loss of the premium passenger ( and no doubt his/her bags too) they don't appear to be doing very much to hang on to those who have kept them in profit in the years gone by. Indeed WW acknowledges that they may never see some of them again!

Things are tough in aviation and BA have no doubt decided to adopt the MO'L approach to cutomer relations. Is it working? Hmmmm?

Frankly, BA needs to change - that is evident. As far as I was concerned, their benevolence to exec club members used to make up for much else that wasn't too great ( tardiness, pricing etc.) but now (even though they are more punctual and cheaper than they were) I can think of no reason to give them any more business.

There are plentyof choices out there and airlines that really do value you custom. Such a pity that BA don't realise that there is no such thing as customer loyalty.

Flying Femme,

the only reason for being in any business is to make a profit. BA have consistently made profits for many years through bad times and good. Unfortunately, the management have made some very grave errors which have been amplified by a very severe downturn in the economy. Staff relations, fule costs, etc. etc. will not diguise tha fact that management have no vision, and no idea how they will grow the business in the future.

They have lost and continue to lose (loyal?) customers because of some mistaken belief that a rigidly controlled, process driven company will be more efficient and thus more profitable. Regretfully, whilst they may be able to control costs admirably - they have done so to the detriment of their revenue stream. Just doesn't add up. I suspect WW has worn the knees out of his trousers paying for an upturn in business traffic. It will come but will BA still be around to see it?

[Crepello]

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: Just help me clear up one thing, chaps. My opinion differs from yours. Does this mean I'm wrong?

We're discussing the tension between customer service and financial discipline - specifically, when the terms of a contract ought be varied. Neither of Capetonian's examples addresses this tension. I gather you believe customer service should reign, and accept this may result in the system being abused. We probably agree that customer service must retain and grow future business. But I believe there should be tight limits on what customer service can do/spend, in order to ensure there is a future for the business. Both our positions are valid.

Naturally, a well treated customer may bring repeat business. But if I'm an airline CEO and his freeloading has just cost me money, why would I want him back? Smile at the customer, politely decline - that's where the service is critical, and hope to see him again soon. Then serve your next customer, a full fare traveller, who's now happy because you didn't just devalue his ticket. You're now balancing short term cashflow with longer term CRM, and that's how to run a business. In my opinion :E

Edit to clarify: CRM meaning 'customer relationship mgt', not 'cockpit resource mgt'

[dubh12000]

My opinion differs from yours. Does this mean I'm wrong?

I'll bite.....I would say, in the bigger picture yes....for the reason you quote below.

You're now balancing short term cashflow with longer term CRM, and that's how to run a business

[Capetonian]

I'll bite too :
Then serve your next customer, a full fare traveller, who's now happy because you didn't just devalue his ticket.

There aren't that many of those rare and precious beasts around now. If you know that your next customer is a high yield one, then yes, but that is not guaranteed.

As for devaluing his ticket, there I agree with you. It's an unfortunate consequence which can arise.

[Munnyspinner]

Crepello,

Discretion is the key to the tension that exists between financial discipline and customer satisfaction. This is seldom succesfully exercised in a process driven environment where it is not possible to legislate for every eventuality and where the default stance is no change.

The advantage of a 'loyalty' programme is that it is meant to develop a bond between service provider and service user. "If you give me repeat business, then you can expect a 'reward'." Such rewards may be free flights or service enhancements - lounge access etc.

Those whingers, myself included, have come to expect levels of customer satisfaction which were never contemplated in the T&C of the contract between airline and passnger - indeed, T&C which I have only ever had cause to seriously examine once in 20 years. As a Gold member I appreciated these ehnacements and saw at first hand that they staff were willing to help out when things didn't go quite to plan. Unfortunately, the process doesn't now appear to permit initiative and effort in the name of customer service.

If I or any of my staff are faced with customer who wants to change something that isn't contemplated in our 'contract' then I expect the following analysis ' Is this practical?' 'what is the cost - to us?' If the cost is low then, is there any value to me in bearing that cost? ( i.e. what amount of goodwill do I need / am I willing to extend to this particular customer). If there is no goodwill relationship - then 'what value can I extract by making a charge? ( can I make a profit on this transaction?)

I suspect the beancounters at BA have identified 'foregone' revenue from BA exec club members who were getting 'soft' changes etc to tickets etc. free. However, by applying more rigid rules they may have captured some of that 'lost' revenue only at the expense of the long term relationship with the customer. Only time will tell if this is good business or bad.

[Munnyspinner]

Capetonian,

I think you have raised a good point regarding the class of ticket being purchased. What is the motivation of the passenger travelling with a full service airline?

Is it to get the most amount of service for the least amount of money? - the freloader argument - I'll buy a cheap ticket and if I need a change I'll busk it with my club card and , if that fails, pay the extra. or,

I want that route, that timetable but the full ticket price - exceeds its true value. Why should I pay that? - the frugal flyer

Whichever the circumstance - the Frequent flyer programmes can assist airlines in deciding how to treat their customer base - if the process allows. If it's the busker, then a one off - OKay sir /madam but....next time we'll need to make a full charge unless you have paid for a flexible ticket.

For the frugal flyer, assuming that he has earned some tier points in the past, is this not a great opportunity to demonstrate the benefits of paying a little bit extra in the future?

The result of saying sorry sir/madam, to either of the above is likley to be the same - a perception of poor customer service and no little desire to repeat the experience. In both of the above cases the airline has right on its side but will be the eventual user.

Crepello perhaps suggests that in some way, by saying no to a customer, you will develop and command respect - I'm sorry, but on that count you are most probably wrong!

[Crepello]

in a process driven environment where it is not possible to legislate for every eventuality and where the default stance is no change.
Agreed. Success requires consistent application of the rules, so that no passenger feels unfairly treated and nobody gets special treatment - both outcomes are costly, in their own ways. The perks of loyalty programmes are well documented, yet no mention of occasional changes to restricted tickets. So, why should this be expected?

Your service provision logic looks sound, though probably requires more resources than most airlines could afford these days.

I suspect the beancounters at BA have identified 'foregone' revenue from BA exec club members who were getting 'soft' changes etc to tickets etc. free. However, by applying more rigid rules they may have captured some of that 'lost' revenue only at the expense of the long term relationship with the customer. Only time will tell if this is good business or bad.
True. And it's my bet that it turns out to be good business, because otherwise:
- Whiners would only demand further exceptions later, and would eventually start bawling when the freebies dried up.
- Whiners will be similarly treated by the competition, sooner or later, so may well come back.
- Leisure whiners will generally revert to the cheapest carrier for a given fare type. Corporate whiners will generally be obliged to follow their employer airline policies, or... take the cheapest carrier. Either way, cost wins out over quality for the longer term competitive edge. (And I don't like this either, but such is the market.)
- Tightening up on 'soft' changes should generate additional revenues from flexible ticket sales - once the word gets out...
Crepello perhaps suggests that in some way, by saying no to a customer, you will develop and command respect.
Those aren't my words - or thoughts. I did opine that every customer interaction must be polite and friendly, whatever the message. Personally, I have a lot more respect for airlines that treat everybody consistently per the terms of their ticket, rather than airlines that decide special rules should apply subjectively to some customers.

[Munnyspinner]

Thing is that the changes required at BA are so radical that our postulation is likley to be entirely hypothetical.

If you are correct about cost wins all then BA have been operating the wrong business model for the past 20 years - and still talk about Premium and quality. If cost is the only driver for the consumer then BA need even more radical re-organistion as their margin will continually be eroded by those with a much lower overheads.

It's easy to postulate that cost is everything when discretionary expenditire is under pressure but I belive there are other factors which are of importance to customers. Relative Cost, Quality of service experience, environmental and ethical considerations are all pertinent to aviation and, I would suggest that cost considerations alone will not endure beyond this current recession.

If BA adopt the low cost, no frills model then they will be leaving a market which they have dominated for years for one in which they have never been successful because of their structure and corporate mentality. However, if they adopt a predatory strategy , slash unprofitable routes and target profitable routes with additional capacity leading to a price war between operators - it might work. BA will hog slots to assist this strategy and allow future diversification - can't see competition commission wanting to get emboiled with this given the mess they made with BAA!

Interesting times but,despite the potential value in their brand, I still think that BA are on the way out.

[bealine]

Interesting times but,despite the potential value in their brand, I still think that BA are on the way out.I do hope you're wrong, but privately as an inside Customer Service employee I am worried! BA has always had a certain arrogance as a company, but a few years ago it could afford to be arrogant because it was the best airline in its class!

The hard-nosed attitude with non-refuindable, non-changeable tickets is doing us no favours except getting short-term cash in the till. Continental, on the other hand, sells non-refundable, non-changeable tickets, but will issue the ticket value as a "Travel Credit" against a future booking if the customer has "hard-luck" circumstances.

As staff, we now have zero discretion allowed to us. We have to apply whatever rules there are without regard to the circumstances, except in a very few limited cases (such as bereavement where even that must be "evidenced" by producing a Death Certificate.)

Sorry to hear of the difficulties you're experiencing. As the catering gets pulled from our short hauls (under 1 hour), other catering gets "re-aligned" and our baggage allowances reduce, I and my colleagues fully expect to see many more of our loyal customers walking away! (As well as loyal staff leaving when the Terms and Conditions are tampered with and the job market picks up outside!)

Sad, isn't it, to see such a proud Empire brought down by those who know the cost of everything but the value of nothing! I honestly believed an Irishman would do better!

If you are correct about cost wins all

No way is the "cost wins all" argument correct. If it was, then no one would buy from John Lewis or Harrods. No one would buy a Mercedes Benz. It is value for money that people desire.

As British Airways service was superior to EasyJet or Ryanair, people were prepared to pay a bit extra, but as the gap closes between the service standards (Easy and Ryanair's lack of check in desks notwithstanding) customers are finding it difficult to justify the extra costs.

I wish I could see a way out of the downward spiral.

[rjc54n]

As a regular lurker here I find myself in the rare position of being able to post from a professional perspective. I am a UK director of a large, successful subsidiary of a US fortune 500 company. We charge a little above the average for what we supply but we attempt to do so at a higher than average level of service. For our customers I hope that the latter more than offsets the former. In our case the extra service is paid for from our slightly higher margins.
I am clear with my staff that we must earn the loyalty of our customers. That does mean showing empathy and compassion and stepping outside of the rules or procedures once in a while. I know the maths; the cost of losing a profitable customer over his or her lifetime versus the cost of bending a rule: even at a short term cost. I also know the cost of alienating high value customers through short-sighted decisions. I trust my staff to differentiate between the ‘genuine’ (in my experience most customers) and the piss-takers (few, who tend to make themselves obvious). How you make people feel is important.

In the case of profot, in my business I would be despairing that my staff failed to take care of a loyal customer of huge value. Had it reached me I would have bent over backwards to put the situation right. (Juud, your post was depressingly insightful)
Bean-counters take a bit longer to understand this (in my experience). There are plenty of academic papers and case studies out there that seek to demonstrate the bottom-line value that accrues from customer loyalty. For some very transactional and ‘lowest cost’ brands I accept that this doesn’t apply: it just isn’t the business model. However, If I was WW at BA I’d be watching very closely the retention rate and value development in my most profitable customer segments.

[James 1077]

Bean-counters take a bit longer to understand this (in my experience).

I'm a bean-counter and I totally understand this! Nearly all of my bills that go out to my top clients have some services performed for them with "No Charge" in the fee column. Could I charge them for them? Definitely. Would they be upset if I did? Almost definitely not. Then why do it? Because people like getting something for nothing and keeping these guys happy means they aren't looking at other service providers so the big ticket items bring in the fees for me.

There is an interesting book that I've read recently by an American car dealer (Sewell I think he is called but I could be wrong). His view is that it is better to be ripped off occasionally by a chancer than to piss off a loyal customer. And I agree with this entirely! It costs a hell of a lot of money to get a loyal customer so you don't want to lose them to a competitor without very good reason.

[bealine]

It costs a hell of a lot of money to get a loyal customer so you don't want to lose them to a competitor without very good reason.My favourite story concerns a much younger Sir Tom Farmer of Kwik-Fit fame and I'll apologise for hte length and for taking this wildly off-topic, but it is one of my favourite yarns!. When the company was quite new and just had a few Scottish exhaust depots, he entered one in Edinburgh to find the manager having a row with a customer about a fault with his exhaust.

After the customer had gone, Tom turned to the manager and said "What was all that about?"

"Och! I told him yesterday he needed a complete new exhaust but he insisted on just having the back box changed. Today, his front pipe has gone and he's telling me it's my fault! No way am I giving him a front pipe for nothing!"

Tom looked at him and asked "How old is he?"

"I dunno - 21 or 22! Why?"

"What does he do?"

"Medical Student, I think. Why?"

"How much do you think he will spend on tyres and exhausts during his lifetime?"

"I'm flipped if I know or even care! Look what is this all leading up to?"

Tommy grabbed a calculator from the counter top, tapped in a few figures and said "At today's prices, he will spend about £30,000 - do you think he'll spend that with you?"

"No, but there's plenty more customers out there!"

Tom smiled, put his hand on the manager's shoulder and said "Of course I'll back you up if that's what you want. A new front pipe costs what - about £6.00 to the trade - I would say £6 against £30,000 is a pretty good return. Why not give the man a ring, tell him you don't accept it's your fault but as a goodwill gesture, you'll put a new front pipe on for him free of charge?"

That's what happened - the pipe was replaced to the customer's delight. That medical student becaame one of Edinburgh's top teaching surgeons and today, his entire family swear by Kwik-Fit and recommend the company to friends and colleagues. Sir Tom Farmer has long since retired, but he is one real gentleman and a character I learned to love while I worked for Kwik-Fit - a tough boss, but always fair and a shrewd businessman!

So - James 1077 - you have proved that not all bean-counters or abacus-rollers are bad! :ok:

Hope BA gets the message!

[PAXboy]

rjc54nin my business I would be despairing that my staff failed to take care of a loyal customer of huge value.As many staff have told us in this (and other) threads - they WANT to help the loyal customer, many of whom they have seen over the years and know their faces, or can see their booking history on the screen. But they are actively PREVENTED from doing anything to help.

It is the change to short term profit by BA (and countless others) that is helping the new and small companies, or those that have not yet been infected by the driving need to keep the stock market price high. Because companies are now judged SOLELY on stock price - everything else gets subsumed to it. In the end the company fails and the Board stand around shaking their heads. As always, the answer is so simple - listen to the people who work at the 'coal face'.

bealine - Great story.

[manintheback]

Over the long term I understand no airline has made money. The loco phenomenon may change this - we dont know yet.

But what it suggests is that the industry as a whole is non profit making and its merely a matter of timing as to when you make the profits or losses. That being the case, whatever strategy you follow - you lose.

BA have to run for cash, given how fast they are burning it quite simply they will fail if they dont turn it around. All else goes out of the window, survival is all. Worry about the fall out if you are still around to worry about it.

But I still find it bizarre a company in this case BA offered benefits and rewards to their best customers and then constantly revoked the benefits and alienated those same prime customers when the times were good.

[bealine]

But I still find it bizarre a company in this case BA offered benefits and rewards to their best customers and then constantly revoked the benefits and alienated those same prime customers when the times were good.

You wouldn't find it quite so bizarre if you work for BA. The company has been in a constant state of change ever since privatisation and goes from one initiative designed to cheese off our customers to another.

Sometimes, I just wish we would just let the grass grow for a moment and concentrate on the things we're good at!

[TrakBall]

The book referred to a few posts ago is Carl Sewell’s “Customers for Life”. It’s a great book and has a number of examples of how simple ways of doing business can be very effective in building good customer relationships.

I am familiar with his car dealership network and I can say that they have a great reputation. And remember, we’re talking about a car salesman.

A few of his commandments for business…

• Underpromise, overdeliver: Never disappoint your customers by charging them more than they planned. Always beat your estimate or throw in an extra service free of charge.
· Fire your inspectors and Customer Relations Department. Every employee who deals with clients must have the authority to handle complaints.
• No complaints? Something’s wrong: If you never ask your customers what else they want, how are you going to give it to them?
• Measure everything: Telling your employees to do their best won’t work if you don’t know how they can improve
• Borrow, borrow, borrow: Sewell, for example, learned about hospitality from Japanese culture, cleanliness from Disney, and politeness from his mother.

A little off topic but food for thought since this thread has drifted toward why customer service and customer facing employees want to do a good job but short term business goals prevent this from happening.

Trakball

[Crepello]

why customer service and customer facing employees want to do a good job but short term business goals prevent this from happening.
And there's the rub - I'd guess Sewell wrote in the days when a dealer would grow his network and build his customer base, making a decent return on each sale. Sadly nowadays, at least in the US, many dealers' objective is just to meet the next payroll, against a market in free-fall and suppliers that have failed them. Every dollar must be exploited for short term survival. There are parallels with airlines.

I have to comment on James 1077's posting (at the risk of being blacklisted from PPr bashes!). Maybe I have a different perspective here but as a recipient of 'beancounter' statements, I'd be alarmed to see one with uncharged listings. Here's why, and I'm being a little brutal:
- Every item on your bill represents costs you have incurred to create value for me. You're entitled to recoup these and add your markup.
- If you're comp'ing me some items, I'm going to wonder how competitive your rate is for the others - maybe I should see who else is out there?
- Diligence: If you're as free with my lesser interests as you are with your own, maybe I need to pay closer attention to you...
- ... and maybe I should question the longer term viability of your business, as your other customers may be thinking the same.
- Finally, and here's the biggest: If there's more than just $50 of 'no charge' work, I have to alert our Ethics Committee, as favours can imply conflicts of interest. There may also be provisions in contract law and antitrust law that render undercharging as questionable, or worse. Neither are my areas, but I'd want assurances in both.

Finally, just so I don't like a complete ass, I've never turned down a beer on the house ;)

[PETTIFOGGER]

Hi Porfot,
Join the fly ba last club. Just bin the airmiles and forget about it.