ADF

[fokkerboy27]

Are there still countries in Europe that require a ADF to be installed in order to fly IFR ?

I have good reason to believe that the requirement will be removed in the UK in a matter of weeks.

Cheers

[Fuji Abound]

What's an ADF?

[IO540]

:) :) :)

The carriage (not "use") of an ADF is a requirement in all UK controlled airspace for IFR.

It is also required in various other places for flying approaches that are based around an NDB.

The CAA might do away with the ADF enroute carriage requirement (which is obviously daft) at some stage but it remains a de facto requirement for IFR around Europe.

[Superpilot]

ADF??? you mean that silly thing with a needle that doesn't know where to point to when:


-You are turning
-It's raining
-There's CBs or thunderstorms around
-You are flying at night
-You are flying near the coast
-When you are on certain headings

Yeah still a handful of JAA members who stipulate an ADF to be installed in order to be certified for IFR. If you want an exact answer you'll need to trawl through each one's AIP. There's normally a section for 'IFR min requirements'.

[IO540]

The equipment list for each country is in the country's AIP GEN 1.5

[fokkerboy27]

Thanks for that,

I am not planning to use the "silly" thing, I am optimistic that somebody has already been tru all the AIP's and could tell me which countries require the ADF carriage.

Cheers

[BackPacker]

Well, as IO540 said, what they're proposing to remove is the requirement for an ADF in en-route navigation. That's a good step in the right direction, but rather academic at this point.

You still need an ADF if you want to fly a procedure that's (partly) based on an NDB. And there are still a lot VOR/DME and ILS approaches that use an NDB somewhere in the procedure, for instance as an approach/holding fix, or as part of the missed approach.

So it's still a bit early to put yours on eBay.

[A and C]

No ADF! how on earth do will I keep up with the cricket scores?

[cessnapete]

Why do you need the ADF? GPS data bases contain the ADF co-ords and could be used instead. Much safer and accurate. Mind set of the authorities in UK have to change though.
ie Had a CAA Flt Ops pilot observing on a trip a year or two ago into Bom in a B744F. We flew the vor/dme procedure with the a/p coupled to the FMS as Co. SOPS in Vnav/Lnav.(triple GPS input into FMS and VOR displayed on non handling pilots PFD map)
After landing debrief included the comment that we should have flown the AP in Heading and V/S as we were not cleared for GPS approaches!.

[IO540]

I am optimistic that somebody has already been tru all the AIP's and could tell me which countries require the ADF carriage.Funny that; I started on this (a matrix of equipment versus country versus airspace class versus flight rules) a few years ago and, suprise suprise, never got very far with it :) It also changes frequently. It would be an impossible task to do accurately.

Also not all AIPs are online. Eurocontrol has a list of AIP sites here (http://www.eurocontrol.int/aim/public/standard_page/web_eur.html) and there is more on their horrid EAD (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadcms/eadsite/index.php.html) site. But some (Greece and I think Italy) are printed only and you have to buy them.

For the most part, nobody cares much about your equipment otherwise aviation would grind to a halt. Loads of Cirruses are illegal for IFR in Europe, due to not having a DME which is a virtually universal IFR requirement in Europe and is not likely to go away. There are probably airliners landing all over Europe right now which are not carrying a 406MHz ELT, etc, but I think all will have an ADF.

Some equipment is obvious by absence e.g. Mode C or Mode S, and I reckon that some provocative items (like a 406MHz ELT) will be ramp checked around Europe in the coming years (especially France if you are N-reg ;) ).

The ADF is suprisingly common in the 3rd world; e.g. Russia has NDB approaches which have two NDBs and you have two ADFs and fly to keep the two needles pointing at "you".

The regs (private flying) do not specify equipment to be USED; only one to be CARRIED. This means that flying an NDB approach using the GPS (as done by every smart pilot) is 100% legal. But you do need to carry the ADF to be legal (there is an argument around that one too; for UK Class G, and therre is another one that GPS meets the verbal definition of a DME, and it would not suprise me if the CAA had got a legal view on this years ago and sensibly decided to not test it..................).

Had a CAA Flt Ops pilot observing on a trip a year or two ago into Bom in a B744F. We flew the vor/dme procedure with the a/p coupled to the FMS as Co. SOPS in Vnav/Lnav.(triple GPS input into FMS and VOR displayed on non handling pilots PFD map)
After landing debrief included the comment that we should have flown the AP in Heading and V/S as we were not cleared for GPS approaches!.

What bollox :) I am told no modern airline flies NDB approaches using the ADF. They fly them on the FMS, and are supposed to check the ADF at certain points (e.g. the FAF) as defined in the company OPS manual.

[englishal]

Since Atlantic 252 shut down, I've not been able to find Ireland!

[fokkerboy27]

Thanks for that IO540 and BackPacker it confirms what I was afraid off.

cessnapete, I agree from a practical standpoint ( I have dual 430's), however if you look in the UK ANO Schedule 5 the ADF is still listed. As far as the DME is concerned, I think the argument is that it does not measure slant range and therefore does not tick the box in the same list as above.

It's a costly and ugly addition but as far as I can see there is no way around it to be legal IFR anywhere in Europe.

I have looked at different options in front of the right seat (we are talking Cirrus) there is room for a KN-64 DME and a KR-87 ADF.

Or stuff the ADF because i think you could argue( say I with "a lot of confidence") that the Garmins 430 can do it and put a remote DME like a King KDI-572 indicator/KN-63 reciever wich would look much better and doesn't "destroy" my panel.

Any other suggestions are welcome,

[IO540]

As far as the DME is concerned, I think the argument is that it does not measure slant range and therefore does not tick the box in the same list as above.I think (really knowing nothing of legal practicalities) that any courtroom argument supporting the carriage of a GPS without a DME would not spend too much time on the slant range issue, which is an utterly insignificant error in most cases.

I think the "distance measuring equipment" wording would be met by a GPS.

But who knows? It's never been legally tested, TMK.

You might get a problem with insurance paying out following a prang, off an IFR flight planned flight, not carrying the specified equipment. Aviation insurance does pay out readily but not where the flight was illegal before it left the ground. I have discussed this with a loss adjuster and that (not being illegal before departure) was important.

Re the Cirrus installation, this is partly why in 2001/2002 I decided to not give £200k+ to the arrogant ******** manning the Cirrus stand at N Weald (or was it Booker?) when I asked about fitting ADF+DME and he told me that a GPS is better than an ADF and then turned around to talk to another punter who was presumably not asking as many Qs. If this was his pre-sales attitude, what of the post-sales attitude?? Cirrus UK knew from day 1 they were illegal and their customers would have to sort it out themselves someday.

I gather than on glass versions there are remote reading options. On the steam gauge version, a RHS mounted KR87 and a DME of some sort (KN63 is a nice little one which might fit in the LHS).

Personally, I would not fly without a DME, because VOR/DME is a highly desirable backup for a GPS and I've had to use it too (just once, though I did have other GPS options). Enroute, I always have VOR+DME tuned.

The ADF argument is more tricky. If I had one (which I do; KR87 which is the only reliable GA ADF on the market) I would not chuck it out. I had a KI-229 dual-needle RMI fitted which combines a VOR (switchable NAV1/NAV2) and ADF indications and this is an efficient way of putting in an ADF - you don't waste indicators because an RMI is brill for all kinds of VOR stuff including flying arcs around a VOR/DME. But I admit this is 1990s avionics really.

[fokkerboy27]

Thanks IO540,

You approach this from a angle that I have not thought about, the insurance company, which is not a insignificant part of the equation!

I guess KN64/KR87 is the way to go, I have no room for instruments or equipment in the main panel (Dual Avidyne).

So once I have the "damage" of planting a KR87 in front of the right seat (there is no other place to go) I might as well go with the cheaper option of the KN64 and stick the 2 on top of each other.

[IO540]

Are there no remote reading instruments which will work with the Avidyne kit?

Presumably the ADF needle will display in the "RMI" presentation on the MFD?

The dual-box RHS cutout solution was done as far back as 2002, IIRC. It doesn't look great but is OK if done neatly.

Re insurance, you could ask your broker. His reply is likely to be "you have to be legal" because that is what they usually say, but you could ask if they ever avoided a payout on the basis of equipment carriage. I've never heard of this having happened myself.

[A and C]

Dependant on the EFIS input it might be possible to hide a KN64 in the back and have remote selection and display, this can be done with both the Sandel & Aspin.

I have looked at this option as I am short of panel space

[fokkerboy27]

"Are there no remote reading instruments which will work with the Avidyne kit?"

Not that I know, the dual box is the only option as far as I am aware, the ADF needle would be "imposed" on the MFD I believe.

A and C, I could put the KN63 in the back and the KDI572 on the left of the PFD, but that still leaves me with the ADF RHS cutout, so hence the cheaper KN64 option.

It seems daft that there is no other solution after all these years.

[soay]

Diamonds can integrate a Becker 3500 Remote ADF into their G1000s, so it can be controlled from and displayed on the PFD. I wonder if that option is certified for the new Cirrus Perspectives?

[fokkerboy27]

Thanks,

I have send Becker an email asking the question,TBC.