Line check. Who is in command?

[jordan2008]

As the Capt under test I sign the book...legally I am in command.

Just had a most unfortunate situation with a line trainer (with a reputation for treating Captains like dirt / verbal abuse / anger management problems).

He seems to think that CRM does not apply to him.

It got to the stage where his interference in my operation / desire to show that actually he was the boss meant I had to take him to one side during the turn around.

My concern with trainers who operate this long discredited mode of "training" is that if there was actually a problem these people would try to run the show.

There are great examples of experienced pilots sitting on the jump seat during emergencies and being used as a valuable resource. All for this but there can only be one person in command.

Just want the position clarifying / other thoughts before taking my next step.

[BOAC]

My understanding is that YOU are in command, unless/until the TC decides you are 'not fit' and removes you from that post. Until that time, unless safety or serious commercial issues arise, he should keep his peace until the turn-round/debrief.

[hector]

Yes, the Captain should definately be in command and the Line Checker merely an observer until the debrief.

However....

unless/until the TC decides you are 'not fit' and removes you from that post.

....this reminded me of a scenario I witnessed many years ago. The Captain was on a line check, 2 sectors, out and back; the Line Checker was on the jump-seat.

At the debrief on return to base, the Line Checker proceeded to fail the Captain, citing something the Captain had done on the outbound leg as the reason for failing him. The Captain immediately retorted that as the misdemeanor had occured on the outbound leg, the Line Checker should have failed him on the turn-round and operated the return leg himself. He claimed the Line Checker had therefore allowed the return leg to operate illegally!

At this point I left them to it before I got dragged into the ensuing fray. I should add that this happened long before CRM had been dreamt up; although it wouldn't have helped these two even if it had. Fortunately they are both long retired/dead, whatever. They deserved each other!:rolleyes:

jordan2008, did "taking him to one side during the turn around" have any effect? It's amazing (though why should I be surprised) that some of these unsuitable characters still get into training/checking these days.:ugh:

[Exaviator]

During a Line Check, the Training/Check Pilot will normally occupy the Jump Seat and is there to assess your operational capabilities and the decisions that you make during the flight. It is usual to use periods of low activity during the flight to pose pertinent questions to assess your overall knowledge of aircraft systems, performance and other areas of technical competence.

You as Captain remain in command of the flight unless relieved of command by the Check Pilot which would normally only happen if you had demonstrated such a low level of competency as to threaten the safety of the flight. This relief of command would have to be justified, and documented on arrival, or return to base.

There have been more than a few incidents/accidents in the past where a senior, or check pilot has been occupying the RHS and a subliminal transfer of command has taken place resulting in confusion as to who is flying the aircraft and making the decisions.:hmm:

[Hahn]

During a line check the guy in the front left seat is in command. Full stop. Should the guy on the jump seat feel the need to interfere he must have reasons which stand in court. If you "blew it" let him help, if not..... I would not hesitate to offer a guy who interferes for trivia to either stay at the next destination or take over and fly the aircraft home. He won´t visit you in jail should his ideas proved to be wrong! The question which licence we where using on that particular flight helped to avoid any confusion of who is in charge so far....

[dontdoit]

Agree with all of the above. If you sign for it, it's your jet. The only time I can think of when the guy in the front left hand seat under check is not the legal commander (and, thinking about it, won't have signed for the jet anyway) would be a Final Command Line Check; clearly not the case here.

[The Real Slim Shady]

The line checker is there to observe: if the line check pilot has to intervene for the safety of the flight, the Commander should be relieved at the first opportunity and the Line Checker take command.

I always brief that I am an observer, will take no part in the operation of the flight unless there is a safety issue, and that in the event of an emergency situation I become another crewmember under the Captain's command.

[Checkboard]

Devil's advocate: IF the Captain is correctly licensed and appointed by the company to be the Commander at the beginning of the flight, under what authority does a TRE/TRI/Check Captain have to remove that command?

[AltFlaps]

Have you spoken to someone in your company about this (even anonymously) ?

If not, you should speak to to the Cheif Pilot or Training Manager.
The majority of these old dinosaurs have mercifully now disappeared, but if this guy's CRM is as bad as you say it is, you SHOULD do something about it

[A4]

@Checkboard

Surely the authority to "remove" Command (albeit temporarily until retraining has been carried out) is covered by the Part D Training Manual of the Company Ops Manual required for AOC?

As a Trainer (Line, TRI or TRE) you have been trained and tested by the Company Training Standards dept and are therefore deemed responsible/knowledgeable/trusted enough to make the decision to fail someone on a check.

It is not a pleasant thing to have to do..... but sometimes it is required. In my experience I've never had anyone challenge my decision. Yet!

As to the original post, I don't know what the Trainer is trying to prove. As a Checker your role should be passive - ask the occasional question or ask if the candidates want to discuss anything in particular but interfering for no operational/safety reason is a no no. Failing someone on the outbound of a check would be a very difficult situation to deal with -but you just have to advise the candidate of a factual, identifiable and unambiguous reason for the failure and its consequences ....... then you have them on the jumpseat watching you like a hawk!!

A4

[The Real Slim Shady]

Here we go checkboard,

You are the LTC on a routine line check.

Weather is TS in abundance: Captain being checked flies into TS, daylight, showing red / magenta on radar. Many other TS between aircraft and next waypoint / destination.

What do you do?

Company SOP is that flying into a red cell is an automatic fail. Do you sit there and do / say nothing? Or do you take over?

[parabellum]

The majority of these old dinosaurs have mercifully now disappeared,


AltFlaps -What makes you think this guy mentioned in post #1 is old?;)

[RHLMcG]

What do you do?

I can recall a tale from Ansett days of yesteryear on the B727. A wise checkie was relating the tale over an ale - it involved his checking Capt Bloggs (a lovely, and sometimes even competent, old chap) on such a day.

Captain Bloggs (beloved of the little old ladies on the passenger list), while telling all on the PA how he would save them from the tempest, flew into some quite unpleasant weather with associated up, down, sideways, etc. movement of unpleasant proportion.

While the checkie didn't find it necessary to fail the old chap he did have an ale with him later and observed that he might do better with less PA and a more proactive management of the flight.

It was an interesting life.

[411A]

Inbound to SIN, radar shows red all over the entire island.
Line checker wants to know if I'm going to divert to KUL due to said red.
I say no, I intend to land at Paya Lebar...and oh, by the way, have a look out the windshield, light rain only and there is the airport twenty miles ahead.

Line checker retreats to the cabin, grumbling....:}