EY Unstable App in MNL?

[sandyballs]

Can someone confirm that I heard RH correctly at the roadshow when he said the 777 fleet had a recent app into MNL where the gear was selected at 350 RA and F30 at 118 RA and the crew landed ???:eek::eek:

What the F@@k were they thinking of...are they still with us!.

[CDRW]

OMDB - what a dumb comment!

[cayenne]

Why don't you ask RH if he has had any hard landings anywhere?

[Airbus_a321]

whats the problem: just another speedy approach. If the RWY is long, so what. Like in the good old times.:ok:

[noflare]

Weve all had hard/firm landings, I think this is a bit more serious :ugh:

Looking at the nationalities I wouldnt expect anything to happen :rolleyes:

[OMDB-PiLoT]

CDRW - Ya I agree, your comment was pretty dumb!

[CanadaRocks]

How hard was RH landing? My last hard landing was in a B727. 160 O2 masks dropped out of 168. It wasn't pretty! Good thing it was Boeing!

Still humbled, and waiting for the next one to bite my a&&.

CR

[Jetjock330]

Any more news on this episode?

[NoJoke]

I don't agree with your retort to CDRW. "All's well that ends well." I agree that the crew managed to escape the sometimes unescapable, but as professionals we have raise, not lower the bar. We all make mistakes and I have made some of the biggest.

I don't think I have gone as far as the MNL approach described, surely even a lowly aircraft such as a Bo'ing must inform the Pilots of such proximity to terrain etc?

noflare - nationalities? B=British, I=Indian, A=Australian. Give us a hint. ;)

[OMDB-PiLoT]

@NoJoke - You and CDRW obviously didn't notice that smilie icon at the end of my message. Your username explains a lot. Goodluck finding what really happened during that flight and help "raise the bar".

:ugh:

[trimotor]

Well, they wouldn't have had the gewar down prior to selcting landing flap, with the associated config warning horn, and the flap would have still beeen runing at touchdown...

[kamaciwa]

A screw up approach for sure. But to set the record straight... apparently they missed the gear selection at the standard point distracted by comm with ATC (not sure exactly what it was). Gear selected just below 800RA and final flap selected around 400RA (I believe).
Rumours around... they decided to continue due to approaching shower (can't verify this).
For me, still not a good excuse but who am I to judge where I have plenty of time to think about it.:oh:

[THR MCT]

Well well well must be a stupid way to kill yourself an all the 300 pax in a very expedius easy manner.:ugh:
PLZ next time just trigger this small lever so nicely called Toga and seat back and relax watch the game when you reach 2000ft call your lovely R1 ask for 2 cups of tea (for both dummies seating at the control) and enjoy the sea view when you reach 15Nm turn on final if not enough ask to extend by another 5 then configure all this lovely vacation at no expenses no need even to write an ASR could you believe how easy it is .
that's what we call rising the bar not lowering it
always fly high and safe
ThrMct:ok:

[sandyballs]

The gear was down at about 350RA and land flap reached 30 at 118RA figures from the recent Roadshow
As for distracted by ATC Comms.......Boll##ks!

We will all suffer because of these 3 clowns, and what is a real joke I hear they were given a couple of Sims & some CRM...if screw ups like this dont get yerr ass fired/demoted then what does!..

Noflare your right...
Nojoke....OK Lah...thats your hint :}

[sec 3]

The boys were just too excited! Thinking ahead to Burgos St !:}

[daviddea]

I find your statement about clowns totally negative. Sorry dude in the real world thats the way these things should be handled, take the guys in the sim see where the problem is and address it. The training Dept. learns we as the pilot group get positive feedback,which I believe if you go back to your CFI 101 days is the way to correct these issues.

[cleared to land]

Mr Trimotor,
of course they would have had the config landing gear warning, quote:

Any landing gear is not down and locked
when either thrust lever is closed below
800 feet radio altitude or when flaps are in
a landing position.

Do you fly 777?:ugh: By the way this warning is the same on any modern and not so modern aircraft.

End to everybody who already "fired" the crew. Wouldn't it be a good idea to have more complete information before "firing" someone rather then making such strong statements based on 1 line msg. Give our colleagues a brake. :ok:

[vaschandi]

Hi "cleared to land"!

Sorry to interfere, but assuming either thrust lever was not closed and/or
flaps less 25
there would be no landing gear configuration warning!

The warning what they should have had comes from the GND PROX WARNING,--TOO LOW GEAR!

My respect to your flight safety office!!! That´s the way occurences like
that should be handled.
Demotion in such a case would be holy stupid!;)

[NoJoke]

A nod is as good as a wink. ;););)

[NoJoke]

Just seen your post. I get the hint. All right, all right. :)

[sandyballs]

These guys knew they were unstable yet they continued to land for no good reason...what can we learn from that!?
The problem is they chose to ignore the SOPs...What can we learn from that!?
Havent we just had something similar on the 330 in KTM and look what happened to him....
Do we have a sim detail to train negligence & incompetence:rolleyes:

[40&80]

Looking at the history of stuff ups on approach and landing and why these have managed to trap crews at these two mentioned airports is a good heads up on what traps to avoid.
Your flight safety office should be able to provide the details of their and other airlines incidents into MNL and KTM and these were in my experiance well worth a quiet read before operating into them.
Ideally these situations should be presented to you in the simulator and you should be route checked/trained into airfields that throw up incidents however straightforward they appear at first glance.

[daviddea]

Its called human factors and NASA has been working on this since Moby Dick was a minow. The only way to get accurate information is not by termination but formulation. I only hope when the day comes when your in the CPs office after stepping on your wick and that day will come, that you receive positive feedback and not termination.

[cantilever]

Human Factors covers a multitude of sins :}
What exact information do you need, isnt that all retrieved from the Flight Data Monitoring....thats the reason there in the s##t isnt it?
Sounds to me like they knew what they were doing....give them a medal Eh! :ugh:

[cleared to land]

You are correct theoretically it is possible not to have the landing gear warning in the situation you are describing but it is highly unlikely if you are trying to land at an airport not to have at least 1 thrust lever to idle OR (i stress on OR) landing flaps selected bellow 800ft. Any way this technical discussion is not the primary topic of this thread. May be its not a good idea to bore the rest with that any more.

[trimotor]

I'm note for an automatic 'fire the guilty pilots' approach either, however, hey can eaily get in the sim and show that they can do it properly and then throw that discipline out when they go back to the line. If that is discovered, that's when their contunied efforts to endanger the ytravelling public should be curtailed. Unless they've been there before, of course.

Cleared to land, yes, did about 6000hrs on the 777, and have heard the gear warning horn in first class too, when F25 or 30 was selected prior to the gear being down, though others are correct in this case - the EGPWS is give the usual 'TOO LOW" warnings.

No excuse for not going around, regardless of how you got to where you are. (unless you have managed to bacjk yourself into the 'no fuel' coner AND flown it badly)

[goatherd]

Incompetance is also a Human Factor:sad:

[woodja51]

Just to wind folks up even more.. you do know that if you were landing on one engine you would only have flaps 20 anyway so what's the big deal on a long runway??.. the jet can do it fine.. okay.. the Company might not like it but the jet is capable of landing just fine.. and stopping too..

ready for incoming.. but in case anyone misses it .. the comment is tongue in cheek..:ok:

[daviddea]

Yeah I remember the days when the F/O or Capt would reach down and press the #1 RA test button to silence the GPWS all worked out ok no bent metal or blown tires.

[EY346Driver]

Gents I have to mention that for one of us to choose to ignore multiple SOP's and continue such an approach is clearly a VIOLATION.

It would be interesting to know if the pilots involved actually reported this incident in an ASR or even an OR after landing.

This should also determine the course of action the Company should take towards this incident. If upon landing the incident was reported then I believe that the crew involved should be given some serious CRM and re-training. The Captain's decission making analyzed and evaluated and the F/O's assertiveness seriously questioned.

If however this incident was left un-reported after landing and was only discovered by flight safety by warnings triggered by the aircraft then I must say that the pilots involved should be dismissed.

We are ultimately responsible for many lives every time we go flying, people trust us to carry their parents, their children and their loved ones. SOP's are there to protect all of us and to choose to violate them is a choice that my have tragic concequences.

Fly safe

[NoJoke]

Ex-RAF are we?

Fly the right way up......

[sandyballs]

Looks like a massive let off for the crew concerned.....CRM and a session of circuits in the sim?:yuk:

Im worried about putting my family on an aircraft with some of these people...:sad:

[White Knight]

NoJoke - don't have to be ex RAF to see that these guys flew like idiots:ugh::ugh:
You're very defensive - maybe you fly like this too:ugh: Idiot..........

[Toubob]

You have to see the Etihad route information maunual.
It will tell you the amount of rain you can expect to see in the month that you are arriving and a lot of other UFI "Useless Farkin Info"

The problem with this doc like most others et EY is that they won't pay anyone to create a proper one. The cold weather ops is useless.
Dispatch still don't know what an ETP is for and the emergency decent stuff is preached to us and administered by people who can't fly airplanes.

Inshallah but we are waiting for another Bahrain accident here.

[EY346Driver]

Toubob,

You may have a point but I fail to see what this has to do with unstable approaches

[Toubob]

No info in the RIM about hazards on the approaches, local procedures etc.
A good RIM should give a pilot all the info he needs in order to conduct a safe approach. All the info that is, that is not in the Jepp's but is learned from the pilot group and held in corps knowledge.

A well produced RIM is an enhancement to flight safety. If the guys just buggered up the approach and didn't follow SOP's that's one thing,consider however our 2 or 3 near CFIT into Peshawar over the last few years. What does the RIM say about this difficult approach or Damascus... Sweet F---- All.

Our RIM provides very basic info, none on who to call on the ground for servicing etc. Imagine diverting into Sonderstrom with no SatCom. You will have no info on this standard alternate other than the Jepp's, you will be using your own phone and credit card. To make all the arrangements,etc.

All of our documents such as the RIM are produced by people on their own time.

A proffessionall organization would see the need to spend the time making a proffessionall document. Most EY pilots are carying a copy of Emirates RIM in their hard drive.

[cantilever]

A good RIM does not detail SOPs....this was 100% crew negligence!

Its great that we have a non punative Flight Safety reporting system however where does it stop.....a crew screws up the approach, ignoring SOPs, then lands fully aware of what they have done!
This must make all the cowboys out there feel good!
What happens to the next crew that land off an unstable approach?

Very poorly handled by those in power, the wrong message has come out to the line to those of us that try to follow the SOPs..(even if they do need to be reviewed!).

Is it anything goes!...F##k ups only get a few days off and slapped wrist

Yeeee Haaaa :E

[NoJoke]

I'm being defensive? Review your post and the amount of icons; very defensive and quite churlish. "Maybe you fly like this too" What a kn@b!

[ironbutt57]

Makes one wonder what the consequences of a go-around would have been??

[40&80]

Probably get signed off as "Doha flight instrument judder"...if you go back that far at GF Iron Butt...Which is better the 2CV or the Harly?

[sec 3]

Whats even worse is management desk jockey pilots who( try to) fly:}

[geo7E7]

No one knows what went through the crew's head on that day but just an advice to all....

Always prepare for a REJECT on all takeoffs - it's a 'bonus' if you get airborne and always prepare for a GO AROUND on all approaches - it's a 'bonus' if you get to land.......:ok:

Too bad if you can't accept this but many find this the best tool to keep themselves SAFE.

[sandyballs]

It was also mentioned at the roadshow that less than 30% of unstable approaches resulted in GA!!

That is F##king scary :eek:
Until the real cowboys are brought to task then we all get labelled!
Enough PC/CRM/Human Factors crap do something about it EY before we bend an aeroplane!

[Jumbo Wambo]

Hey sandyballs lets not get crazy with " Thats F***ING Scary" statement. Yes the incident was a failure by the flt deck to implement correct SOP's. But I think your comment is taken way over the top. You're probably one of the guys who does a new performance for a change of 100kgs in ZFW. Get real mate......

[Dixons Cider]

that less than 30% of unstable approaches resulted in GA!!


I think this is what the "scary" statement refers to.

Its well documented as the the hazards of landing off an unstable approach can be (in particular engines not spooled up). Okay the scary, thing might have been a bit dramamtic, but he's got a point.

ANY company has to draw a line in the sand as to limits for stabilised criteria, and ok we've all milked it at times, and it can be a pain in the a$$, but the reality is it is unsafe to continue to land in such a condiotion.

If you don't agree, have a quick look at the habsheim 320 going into the trees in a cloud of smoke. Unusual scenario yes, but graphic example of an abort from idle thrust.

[shortfuel]

If you don't agree, have a quick look at the habsheim 320 going into the trees in a cloud of smoke. Unusual scenario yes, but graphic example of an abort from idle thrust.

Completely unrelated event...even from an engine spool up point of view.

Anyway, before these unstable approache events, we had a very clear stable/not stable policy. Ops decided to be more conservative...when does it end?

Over the illustrated period, less than 10% resulted in G/A.

[Dixons Cider]

I disagree.

Ok, how and why the a/c got to be low level with the engines at idle is unrelated for sure.
But from the point were he poured the power on with the intention to climb, it is exactly like a rejected landing from idle thrust scenario.

CFM did change some FADEC logic to do with spool up from idle post crash, but I think the lessons learned from that one are still valid.

[sandyballs]

Hey Mumbo Jumbo sorry but your wrong!
Im just one of the guys who tries to stick to the SOPs and knows when to GA.... Maybe you should get real mate...:ugh:....If you feel that this kind of flying is acceptable or something to be just brushed off as one of those things....we are in trouble!

Maybe your one of those in 70% who knows better than the rest of us mere mortals and lands from unstable approaches citing the usual crap of: "Good VMC"/"Long Runway" etc etc....."ATC asked us to keep our speed up" is another good one! :rolleyes:

[tmax]

That is why a good friend (TRE on the EY bus ),always sent his family on GF,EK or any other carrier rather than EY!!!!

[GoreTex]

haha, some in EK send their families on EY I heard

[tmax]

GF is the safest so far!! EY guys sent the families with us! Even the 320 CP fly with us !! He he

[Speedbrake Lever]

Tmax

so do i fly GF more than i do EY

its called a level ...........

and not had a bad flight yet

shame it has to be like this but it is

somebody should be wondering " WHY" ???????

s.l.

[chainsaw]

Dixons.............

Your reference to L'Affaire Habsheim seems valid.

Besides, simple physics says that you cannot go up from 30 ft altitude at minimum airspeed and engines at flight idle. You are at minimum kinetic energy and have no potential energy.

Source: Peter B. Ladkin (ladkin(at)rvs.uni-bielefeld.de)

Safety-Critical Mailing List Archive 2002: Re: [sc] A320 crash at Habsheim. (http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/hise/safety-critical-archive/2002/0468.html)

[Jumbo Wambo]

Hey Dusty Balls. Who said anything about it being acceptable? Maybe you should let them out more. Would stop them from collecting all that Dust or Sand as you like to call it......

[Black Stain]

The practice of storing balls dry and dusty is a well known preventative treatment for the Jock Itch.

[NoJoke]

BeGad Sir you must be an Australian; or is that a different 'ash'ue. Sad, but I try.