View Full Version : Company regulation, new FCI
...........
Employees are expected to:
"Act with courtesy, integrity, honesty and professionalism when dealing with customers,
colleagues, suppliers and passengers, whether on or off duty":confused:
Can you do the same in the management PLEASE......:D:D
Chewthecrude
1st Jul 2009, 16:04
Anyone seen this too? Can you imagine working for a first world airline & telling them that all these are not allowed. "Sorry Lufthansa flight deck going to LA but no skiing for you!" "Sorry BA flight deck going to San Fran no water skiing for you or even no ultra dangerous sport of kayaking can be done!@!!"
Whilst on layover, Flight Crew are prohibited from taking part in any ‘dangerous' or 'extreme’
sports activity that may jeopardize their safety and the continuity of the operation, including,
but not limited to, abseiling, base-jumping, diving, hang-gliding, kayaking, ice hockey, motor
sporting activities, off road mountain biking, parachuting, polo, pot holing, power boat racing,
sailing, skiing, rock climbing and mountain climbing. Flight Crew who are found to be in
breach of this policy may risk the loss of some or all of the existing company insurance
coverage, at the company's sole discretion, in the event that an injury is sustained as a result of
any such activity
I'm sorry but climbing Mount Everest might be a little dangerous but kayaking?
Seems to me that if you cannot do anything on your supposed time off it must be something else. The only thing possible is that you are still on duty so it must really rack up your duty hours and duty pay (do you get that?).:}
fatbus
1st Jul 2009, 17:15
have not heard of anyone racing boats on a layover, but there is a first time for everything.
this whole thing has AAR all over it, as far as he is concerned " he thinks you belong to him while on layover" no fun , no stress relief, no healthy exercise just sit there and go nuts.
....as far as he is concerned " he thinks you belong to him while on layover" no fun , no stress relief, no healthy exercise just sit there and go nuts.
In actual fact, you (as a FD crew member) do 'belong to the company', whilst on layover...due in large part to cater for the odd reschedule, diversion, illness, etc.
IF you thought otherwise, you would be most sadly mistaken.
Doubt?
Try it and see.:rolleyes:
CAVnotOK
1st Jul 2009, 19:17
411A,
You may belong to the Co. during a layover, but I certainly do not, and will not. If they can't contact you there is quite simply nothing they can do.
With a ridiculous comment like that, the Co. doesn't just own YOU, but they have you bending over a barrel just waiting for your next degredation.
Makes me sick to my gut to listen to your dribble.
Do these office dummies like TCAS and AAR have nothing else to do than than sending out these useless cr@p mails. Time someone cuts some of the slack we have in management.
And than there's the question I ask myself every time : How low can u go....
:ugh:
Heard they were gonna try and ban all alcohol related drinking whilst on layovers, but this WAS shotdown. Delsey drinking anyone :ugh::ugh: Muppets.
EGGW
Reminds me of the good old days when EK first went to Nice. At the right time of year, most of the crew would grab a minivan and head on up to Isola 2000 to ski. My brief to my FO went along the lines that if I broke a leg on the slopes, he was to drag my protesting body down to the waterfront at NCE before calling for medical attention. :) I'm not sure how I was planning to explain why I needed winter woolies and ski goggles on the beach at Nice!!
You may belong to the Co. during a layover, but I certainly do not, and will not. If they can't contact you there is quite simply nothing they can do.
Sure there is, CAVnotOK, after you have completed your mandated rest period after your inbound flight, you are to be used at the companies descretion.
If you are not available, and the company tries unsuccessfully to locate you to no avail, due (for example, you having left the layover station to go skiing) the company is quite within their rights to terminate you for cause.
What will you do....contact your pilots union and complain?:ugh:
You don't know it yet, but working in the middle east for an airline, you are screwed, blued, and tatooed...and absolutely nothing you can do about it.
Except quit.
Think I'm wrong?
Try it and see.:E
411A, if you wind the guys up I'll thread-ban you. We acknowledge you as the all-knowing ME expert but don't irritate the locals for the sake of showing us how much you know, from your many years in the sand-pit, on a topic that has SFA to do with you. 4HP
TheyCallMeTrinity
2nd Jul 2009, 03:22
Another nail in the coffin. Maneuvers are being made for the great escape from the desert. I'm quite happy to quit. I will never tolerate being owned. I'd rather live in my parents basement, poor as a pauper, then give some unethical corporate scum delusions of owning me.:=
wizard1
2nd Jul 2009, 05:42
its all getting rather silly. On a daily basis there is something in that inbox to piss you off. I have never been one to get too wound up about this stuff but it is starting to bother me badly and that can not be good for the companies bottom line. FCI after FCI basically demeaning us in what is an increasingly aggressive tone. Then I am expected to sit in that cockpit and save every drop of fuel, every minute of time and take any change that sched doles out without a sniff. When was sailing a dangerous sport??? we are hardly going to be crossing the southern ocean on a layover (I notice they missed kitesurfing!! Wonder how long that revision will take).
If there were other jobs I would look around - there is not much fun to be had any more.
Trader
2nd Jul 2009, 06:21
411A - except that after my rest I am perfectly entitled to go out to eat, exercise etc during which I am unreachable. In this case I guess I a will always be out eating - if asked :)
CAVnotOK
2nd Jul 2009, 06:35
Absolutely right Trader,
Just because you are not contactable during a layover doesn't mean you have gone skiing, or anything else that could end in termination for that matter.
411A, it's time to come back to reality now. Emirates can only own you if you let them. Good luck puppet.
Trader, stand by for the FCI stating that you WILL have your company phone on and in your possession at all times while on a layover.
Tintin
2nd Jul 2009, 07:41
What about sex???
acegreaser
2nd Jul 2009, 07:47
I slipped on the treadmill and hit my head. Does that count? How to maintain my BMI now :confused::confused:
pissedoffpilotek
2nd Jul 2009, 07:56
7X7 So have your company phone with you and switched on.
just put a different sim card in it!!!!!:ok:
PorkKnuckle
2nd Jul 2009, 09:57
Background to this latest shaft:
Recently a Qantas cabin crew was reported as having won a large sum of cash-money (http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25683435-462,00.html)in the courts based on having suffered a personal injury when down-route on a layover.
The airline was found to be liable because they gave her allowances instead of a hotel meal-voucher to pay for her dinner. Therefore they accepted that she might go down the road to 7-11 and buy herself some noodles instead of eating in the hotel reataurant.
Compis mentis - it was the airline's fault.
Now the EK Brain Trust who see and smell all things money with crystal vision have acted in advance to prevent similar here. They have told you what not to do and will not pay if you indulge and damage yourself. Case closed - so they think.
Want to know what the next shaft will be? Note the reference above to crew not having been issued a hotel MEAL VOUCHER.
after you have completed your mandated rest period...... you are to be used at the companies descretion. If..... the company tries unsuccessfully to locate you .........the company is quite within their rights to terminate you for cause
With the exception of being contactable, being downroute after the required rest period is like being on a day off. No requirement for anyone to do anything except show up at pick-up time. If it's a two-day or more layover, you don't even have to be sober the entire time provided the limits for the planned next duty are not exceeded. Sorry 411A but you're wrong again. Not surprising since you're taking wild guesses from miles away.
stand by for the FCI stating that you WILL have your company phone on and in your possession at all times while on a layover.
You're already supposed to be contactable, according to the FOM. The company phone gets them a Capt at short notice but may not help with an FO who's probably out tomcatting when the call comes in. Good luck to him... Anyway the FOM already states the phone is for contact when on a layover. They'll tell you that implies it should be on. Yes but you might be in a bad reception area...
What about sex???
It already says: "No pot-holing"
ekpilot
2nd Jul 2009, 11:15
Reducing the clauses and highlighting the exceptions in their insurance contracts makes the insurance cost cheaper for the company. They probably renegotiated their insurance contracts and must have change certain clauses to save money. What about a new clause stating "All captains must have 3000 hours on type before going to the left seat" ;)
It's far from over, it's all about money.
Keep Discovering:ok:
:D Fkn classic Bin Liner!!!!
I suppose EPC will now be obligated to replace all the mountain bikes with road or hybrid types to prevent mishaps a la Brisbane. Mind you that particular Captain is such an experienced cyclist. He should have known better.
T
Tail Rota
2nd Jul 2009, 17:12
Hi Fellas:cool:
Just got in this morning from MRU. Banged a grade 1 after taking her water skiing which is provided free at the company paid resort. :E
Lost control due to unlimited supply of alcohol at said resort and there is now a good chance she's going have a Baby Rota :{
What FCI?
TR:ok:
Noted, 4PH, however it is far better that folks at EK hear it from me, first, least they then find themselves in hot water.
Some jr crew members consider layover days as 'days off', sadly they are quite mistaken.
Consider this scenario.
Inbound crew goes into crew rest, only to find that the outbound crew has run out of duty time, due to a technical snag.
Right away, the company starts looking for the inbound crew, after the mandated rest, to operate back to base.
One (or more) crew have left the layover station, without informing the Captain and/or the station manager.
I can recall at least a dozen circumstances where this has resulted in said crew member being called into the office to explain themselves.
No reasonable explanation...say goodbye to your job.
Not a wind up, just the facts.
In short, CYA, big time.
PositiveRate876
2nd Jul 2009, 19:22
Excuse my ignorance but what is the newly prohibited act of "Pot Holing"? :ugh:
I Google'd it and all I'm getting is this...
http://www.picturesfromjamaica.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/pothole-garelli-01.jpg
mensaboy
2nd Jul 2009, 20:21
You are so full of crap 411A, you are making up stories. At least a dozen instances of....'' ______ ''... give us a break. I have been flying for almost 30 years and I have never heard of an instance that you described.
By the way, MY time is MY time. Whether it is on a layover or at home base. If you are such a little girl that you won't lead your life because a company threatens to hold you to task if you get injured, then perhaps that explains your general attitude.
In addition, our cabin crew are required to have ''Days Off'' down route, when the company deems it necessary. Yet the FCN/FCI does not acknowledge this fact.
You are a fear mongerer and a pussy boy all rolled into ONE. It must be a joy flying with someone like yourself, where compliance with company regulations overides common sense and flight safety.
In spite of the fact that this latest grab at our personal freedoms has gone beyond sanity, I agree with the principle that pilots should be careful during a layover, because if a pilot is unable to carry out his duties, then it might be very difficult for the company to rectify the situation. But 99% of pilots I know, already abide by the rules of common sense... so this knee-jerk reaction by the company is just another indication that they have lost control.
They actually have stated that politeness and professionalism is demanded when dealing with pax, staff, or anyone else for that matter! If any pilot on the planet can show me a similar decree from their management, I would be shocked and amazed. When you treat people as idiots, stress them beyond belief and consider them immature and irresponsible human beings, the end result will be that those people start behaving in such a manner.
It is like we are in the 15th Century at this company!
411A,
You are completely wrong on this. Our FTL's, for instance, actually reduce days off at base if days off are given on the pattern. Seems to me that makes days off down route exactly that, DAYS OFF.:ok:
It is like we are in the 15th Century at this company!
Whoa, mensaboy, have a chill pill.
Every once in awhile SVA issued this same type of FCI...I read it, and tossed it into the bin, and then had a good laugh.
Our FTL's, for instance, actually reduce days off at base if days off are given on the pattern. Seems to me that makes days off down route exactly that, DAYS OFF.
Indeed so, if this is the case, then days off downroute are as you describe.
It has always been my modus operandi to use the companies policies to my distinct advantage.
For example, during the first gulf war, the company was extremely short of Captains, do I did a deal with the company.
A deal-deal, as Don Rickles used to say.
I would accomplish all the extra flights the company so desired, and in return I would receive either...extra pay, or...additional annual leave days.
In one year, I had accumulated an additional 62 days whilst doing so, and added to my normal 42 days annaul leave, resulted in...104 days off, in a row.
Not a bad deal, as the company was willing to deal in return.
Not saying this is possible at EK, you understand, but it worked to my distinct advantage at the time.
I have been flying for almost 30 years and I have never heard of an instance that you described.
I have you beat by more then 10 years, mensaboy, and over thirty of those in the middle east (and still there on a seasonal basis) so, my suggestion is to make the system (however obtuse it might be at your company), work to your best advantage.
Don't forget the chill pill.;)
Not from here
3rd Jul 2009, 03:42
Why is it always Thursday pm that they send out these moronic e-mails, starting to get a phobia about opening my inbox.
You would think they would be spending their time managing the airline not think up ways to piss everyone off@#@#@.
Can imagine the OAP meetings.
Agenda items:
Updates ACARS on A343 to hard cost too much!
Improve SOP, not just change them again
Remember to write stupid email to the troops it must be Thursday!
:ugh::ugh::ugh:
PorkKnuckle
3rd Jul 2009, 05:27
Indeed so, if this is the case, then days off downroute are as you describe.
Thanks for admitting you have no idea wtf you were talking about. AGAIN. Your continuous stream of clueless garbage puts your posts on the same level as the stream of rot from our clueless Mr. Ed. Are you brothers?
At least tell me where I can mail a copy of our CD so you can read the FOM and sound a little less intensely ignorant next time you comment on someone else's business.
There's no fool like an old fool, right 411A??? :{
trimotor
3rd Jul 2009, 06:18
Boys, boys, boys...I put 411A on my ignore list years ago, and have reaped the reward ever since...he's an old wind-up merchant and you are biting...ignore, ignore, ignore and focus on the problem..
Boys, boys, boys...
Yup, about sums it up, alright.:}
Instant Hooligan
3rd Jul 2009, 13:41
411A,
Habibi you are an arrogant,surly child. The above just sums you up.
Just in case you were thinking of replying see below
-This message is hidden because 411A is on your ignore list. -
nolimitholdem
3rd Jul 2009, 14:44
You don't know it yet, but working in the middle east for an airline, you are screwed, blued, and tatooed...and absolutely nothing you can do about it.
Except quit.
Umm...wrong. The whole "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" thing. There are many, many ways to fight back against bullies. A Western union vs. management is a more traditional battle - in a dictatorship it simply shifts to guerilla warfare. I seem to recall a once-mighty nation that slunk home defeated by guerillas...pick a decade, 70's, 80's, present day...I digress...why EK would want to antagonize a group they had onside at one point is beyond me but it will harm them more than those they seek to penalize - especially now that there is no sharing of what profits might still have been made...
I do hope 4HP's reference to 411A as the "expert in all things ME" was as tongue-in-cheek as it appeared. Not to pick on any one country, but I can think of a certain Western nation whose residents have lived there a lot longer than 40 years yet many struggle to name the capital of their home STATE...doesn't exactly make the case that being somewhere for a long time makes anyone knowledgeable...a premise ably demonstrated by our pal from Arizona...
Payscale
3rd Jul 2009, 15:22
Papa 411A is here to help us all. What a reknaw (read the arabic way):uhoh:
Sadly EK seems determined to follow step by step the same stupid moves that I think helped destroy Gf.
Former Gf and todays EK management want it all both ways... and this policy insures the worst behaviour in both crews and managers comes out as it all stupidly esculates.
Eventually like Australia and more recently in Cathay a bunch of pilots get fired as a way of explaining to them who the bosses really are.
This management action generally has government backing and together they spare no cost in proveing their point that they are the boss.
I observed such managers are only removed by an accident involving majour fatalities...however sadly these managers mutate and evolve to spread their poisions into other emerging airlines.
I would be very interested to see just how many (pre the GF A320 accident which resulted in a management cull) ex Gf managers are presently infecting all the Gulf area airlines today.
I only did 26years in GF and 10 in other countries as a pilot and would caution you that in my experiance everthying 411A says is 100% correct.
Why 411A cares to warn you what will happen to you all is a mystery.
Like management... you will have to learn by experiance..sometimes the fees in the form of body counts and pilots fired is too high.
I could go on and on about Gf.... a Gf Captain who died sailing immediately after a night flight or the Gf captain seriously injured when water skiing or the Captain who went touring on a layover in Africa and nearly died from the brain maleria he caught because of it...but you seem to have several problems at EK and like us pilots at Gf no ammunition except resignation to resolve these problems.
This is the reality of Aribic management policy. I know it and so does 411A.
High 6
3rd Jul 2009, 16:17
Is it just my imagination or are we getting more min rests on our layovers? As a result of increasing frequencies the roster is now flexible enough to ensure that one is back on duty as soon as the legal rest has been taken.
That solves the issue of drinking down route as well as not being able to be found to operate a flight!! What to do?? :ugh: Fatigue, what fatigue??
Anyone have the number for the twin otter operation in the Maldives?
Cyberbird
3rd Jul 2009, 22:40
@ 411A and other "third-world-specialists"
You're WAY OF mate- if someone has & will to learn it the hard way, it will DEFINITIVELY be the muppets of so called wonna-be-managers, who are ongoing& stupidly threatening their flightcrews - by now - with really outreageous ridicilous statements - and strictly outspoken stupid letters!:ugh:
As soon as the market will open up most of up are really fed up with all the cr@p overfilling our inboxes by now - plus the stupid corporate mail spam!
Apparently guys like You have only the very limited horizon of a third world country - por You ! - were Gulf-News is the only available poorly made and disguised propaganda available - however the real facts in these muppets-country are rather hidden from the public - and look ashamingly like this:
The people care more about havin their dusty cars washed every day by their filipino maid (who cares, as DXB is a merely disguised desert anyway ),
and putting stupid dark tinting on thei windsreeens (!!), than the hospital the other day was willingly to treat the highly pregnant lady at Sharjah - who was rudely shown the door and sent away, and had consecutively to deliver her baby in the taxi !!:D
that's really third world status- plus: did You read anywhere that the National Bank of Dubai (biggist bank of Dubai) is de facto bankrupt? i did, but in the FT, and of course not in the Gulf News !! - the NBD just saved at last minute by Sheikey Maktoums pocket money -
but of course all Hush-Hush Habibi !
No - the management clowns have no power whatsoever about my free time, on layovers or at base/ home/ leave - and i did never ever file ANY off-base report, as i am a free man!
and if they need cheap stand-by-crews during layovers - presto: bring up bases at any (!) civilzed "First world" country, and i can guarantee You that over 90% of us will pack next week - if they just could!
EK has became just another aviation job by now - trend spiralling downwards!
People will vote with their feet earlier as you think- i personally know already a big number (around 50-ish) Co-Pilots, who will resign due to the last recent upgrade-scam, in the aftermath of the MEL-incident;
just wait and You will see - that actually the wonne-be-managemant has to learn it the hard way - earlier (If MEL aftermath forces some sackings in management) or later (when they can't stuff their nice shiny jets anymore), as everybody want's to leave that sinking Dubai ship rather earlier than later -with property prices /Villas already down some 40ish percent, plus, plus, plus -
Cheers from a first world country for now :ok:
if someone has & will to learn it the hard way, it will DEFINITIVELY be the muppets of so called wonna-be-managers, who are ongoing& stupidly threatening their flightcrews -
Heard this all before, Cyberbird, yet it really never seems to affect the company management.
Flight crew can wait for better times, then quit.
The airline will simply hire more. There are plenty of suitable applications at HR. Yes, the training costs go up, but in reality, with the larger airlines in the middle east, this doesn't matter much.
Take SV as just one example. 'Round about 1985, GOSI (retirement fund) was summarily cancelled by royal edict, and a whole bunch of expat pilots quit...gave in their two month notices the very next day.
Just more overtime for the pilots that remained, until new pilots could be recruited. It made absolutely no difference whatsoever to the company management.
None.
You (or the pilots as a collective group), simply cannot 'punish' the company management, no matter how hard you might try.
A fact I expect that still needs to be learned by the relative newcomers to the middle east.
As the world turns...:}
It doesn't help with your type of personality in management, that is for sure.
An interesting comment, A380-800 driver, however you might actually be completely surprised.
I have never stated that I necessarily agree with the management that you might have, only that there is little you (or the pilots as a collective group) can actually do about it.
I look at particular situations in a realistic fashion, in keeping with my long experience in the middle east/asia areas.
IE: a middle eastern leopard does not change his spots.
nolimitholdem
4th Jul 2009, 08:28
IE: a middle eastern leopard does not change his spots.
That's a bit like trying to take credit for noticing the desert is hot. Bravo, well spotted. THIS is what took you decades to learn?
But it's actually the whole point being made here - in spite of their expensive PR machine, EK/UAE and this region of the world have NOT changed. It's still just a backward, third-world, dark ages mentality with enough money to crust things over briefly with (fake) gold. And THAT is why the attempts are made to get the word out to those who might be fooled. Thanks to the internet and other mediums, there are less out there. I would submit that fundamental changes in communication are one area that tend to discount your "experience" by some degree...in "your" day in the Middle East, there was no possibility of sharing the idiocy so quickly. Nowadays a foolish memo is released and almost instantly flashed across the world. So your paternalism is a tad misplaced old son.
I certainly have no desire to "punish" management...to have to BE one of those cretins, is surely punishment enough...I at least will get to go home, with as much of their dirhams stuffed in my pockets as possible. They will still be in the desert, they will still be themselves. Brief anger gave way to pity a long time ago.
It's all about making it work for YOU...this I do agree!
:cool:
Brief anger gave way to pity a long time ago.
Congratulations, allthough this is phase II only. Phase III is when you don't even feel any pity no more for those morons, especially when winding up a Patrol around a bridge pillar.
Same no-feelings-no-more applies to 411A's drivel as well.
Once at that state, life's still pretty good, it makes waiting for better times to leave the cro-magnons quite bearable.
To all wannabees: Just consider that it takes some time to get to phase III and that is the hard part, especially for the missus.
sheikmyarse
19th Jul 2009, 14:52
My dear
I'm sorry to inform you that unlike yourself not so many are for sale here anymore.
People like you, with no self respect,for one reason or the other nothing to loose, gave the false impression to this people that they could do what they wanted.
This is becoming more and more untrue and as a matter of fact the UAE as recently accepted some 32 ( if I recall correctly... ) reccomandations from the UN human right watch among which there is a formal commitment to, among other rights, grant the one of collective bargaining.
It will take time but it will happen...sooner than later.
This place has been running on oil but oil will become soon a unwanted commodity and the only way they will survive will be to become part of the first world by accepting the rules of it, economical and social.So give us a favour.. retire. We will survive without you. Your lack of wisdom and shortness of sight really is a perfect example of what is not needed here as the fact that you "sold" your self demonstrates. But new generations are little bit less inclined to bend.... May be you are right the solution is to quit.. well I'll think about it...and may be I will .. but since then ..don't remind me we are doing the same job... please!