British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[TightSlot]

Continuation thread from BA and Project Columbus III (http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/366830-ba-project-columbus-iii.html)

[Buter]

Best wishes crew, I hope negotiations do indeed continue for everyones sake.

Cheers

Long haired redneck surf hippie pilot.

Buter

(I just wanted to be the first to post, really)

[MrBunker]

I note on the BA forum that the crew are complaining that BA haven't turned up for talks today. Just wanted to point out that this may be due to the fact that BA have asked ACAS to mediate any further talks.

[Dozza2k]

does anyone else get annoyed at bassa's continual comparison to the pilots pay and conditions?

It seems to be just to stir up emotional ranting in their publications. It is completely irrelevent and like comparing cabin crew wages with that of a supermarket worker. Different jobs people.....

[Carnage Matey!]

What's even more annoying is they still won't compare them accurately! They claim their 2.61% pay cut proposal 'exactly mirrors' the pilots but conveniently overlook the additional £1800 cut in flying pay. Wonder what the judge will make of that at injunction time?

[nuigini]

does anyone else get annoyed at bassa's continual comparison to the pilots pay and conditions?

I also get annoyed by their behaviour but they are not mentioning anything that every other department in BA have had their terms and conditions changed the last years.

[NO JACKETS REQUIRED]

Crew have been asked to save 37% unlike the flight deck, as the deal done by BALPA only equates to about 8%. These figures were released last night.

Guys less face it Willy wants a strike. You only have to go on the BA forum to see the ill feeling we have for our managers.

[Juan Tugoh]

"Crew have been asked to save 37% unlike the flight deck, as the deal done by BALPA only equates to about 8%"

Perhaps BASSA could have spent their time more profitably by negotiating with the company, then perhaps their deal may have been a lot more reasonable.

I feel great sympathy for my CC colleagues - it must be frightening looking at how your financial prospects are facing catastrophe.

BASSA's failure to represent the whole crew rather than the senior few at every turn seems to have finally hit the end of the road - their actions have failed their members shockingly. This can now only end in tears.

[deeceethree]

And what you forget, NO JACKETS REQUIRED, is that other departments, including the pilots, have been changing their Ts & Cs and pay for several years - unlike the cabin crew. BASSA have harumphed, foot-stomped, hissy-fitted and more for years, and now the change that should have been made long ago, in small increments, is going to be made in one fell swoop.

Of course its going to hurt, but BASSA has only itself to blame. Market forces and a lousy financial period are going to claim those who wander around with their fingers in their ears and blinkers on their eyes. Bad luck.

[Dozza2k]

Again, NO JACKETS REQUIRED, why the comparison? This isn't about whats fair or anything between the two (and the rest) departments! IFCE has been given a target and so have the other ones, perhaps your target is higher % wise because of the minimal changes it has made since privatisation........

Why can't bassa just produce info to its members based on what it is up to rather then moaning that other departments have different cost targets???!!!

I'm all for fact based debate but when bassa puts out crap figures to stoke up emotions it's entirely wrong on many levels. But then this is a rumour site so perhaps........

[PC767]

I'm not interested in Pilots pay or T&Cs. But the argument raises its head every time a Pilot compares their own situation with Cabin Crew. I.e. 'Our T&Cs are x,y,z so we shouldn't have to do a,b,c.'

They have always been different jobs and at different times have had different opportunities. I keep reading comments from Pilots telling Cabin Crew not to compare T&Cs. Agree. So, if there is no comparrison for new T&Cs, why should there have been a retro-comparrison of old T&Cs.

I will not accept, from anyone who isn't Cabin Crew, how I should be renumerated and how I should operate. I don't tell Pilots, Engineers or Ground Staff how much they are worth or how to do their jobs. Necks out.

Or, is the problem that Walsh has linked everybodies agreements together. Does this failure mean that other agreements will nolonger be ratified. Has Walsh deliberately created a split, a blame culture. I believe he has. It is easy to offer £13million of shares and drop new fleet when the leadership have no intention of offering these conessions. But the blame will not, on the surface, lie with management, no, it will now lie with the Cabin Crew.

I've said before and I increasingly maintain. Walsh has no desire for talks to succeed. Read the latest news item on BA's ESS site.

ACAS called in as talks end without agreement


It has not proved possible to conclude an agreement with the trade unions on the pay and productivity discussions by the deadline of June 30.

British Airways has therefore asked the conciliation service ACAS to facilitate any future meetings they may have.


Curt. And highlights the leadership attitude. May?

[NO JACKETS REQUIRED]

The threat of change will not only hit cc. Guy's even the chance of a strike will effect everyone In BA. I can not see a agreement between BA or BASSA. As a membership we gave our unions a mandate on what to negotiate, that is what they have proposed to BA. If BA refuse it and impose any changes, we would ballot for a strike.

What bothers me , is that there are members that are creating a them and us environment. We must respect our individual unions, as it is their respective job to get the best deal for its members.

[HiFlyer14]

I think it is good news that BA have called ACAS in straight away. The message from BASSA last night was very emotive, far from accurate and calling it's members to arms.

The message from Amicus, on the UniteBA website, was much more level-headed and focused. I sincerely hope that Amicus have recognised the need to continue to negotiate and that they can persuade their emotive, fly-off-the handle counter-parts to do the same.

The calls for strike on the other forums are far too premature and very dangerous talk indeed.

Breathe everyone...and think about what's at stake here.

[deeceethree]

NO JACKETS REQUIREDCrew have been asked to save 37% unlike the flight deck, as the deal done by BALPA only equates to about 8%.
and you then go on to state merely 24 minutes later:What bothers me , is that there are members that are creating a them and us environment.Perhaps you need look no further than yourself?

[Carnage Matey!]

Curt. And highlights the leadership attitude. May?

I'm not sure where the problem is with BAs statement. BA have been negotiating for three months, their bottom line is that IFCE must deliver their share of the savings. Instead of working towards that goal they've had three months of denial, prevarication and obfuscation from BASSA, all directed towards giving up as little as possible. If so little has been achieved in three months why should BA continue to negotiate? Their bottom line is clear. BASSA seem to be trying to string things out as long as possible in the hope that they'll be overlooked, or can reduce their share. If they were spending their time negotiating instead of looking over the fence at other departments it would be worth carrying on, but why would BA agree to another three months of bluster?

[Joetom]

No jackets reqd, thanks for the numbers, I have been asking for the numbers for a while.

Pilots 8%, Cabin Crew 37%, this gap is too big.

Reminds me of interview with Mr T many years ago, he was asked what he expected when he gets in the ring with Rocky, he said just one word "PAIN"

Unions and management have allowed CC market rate to be unworkable by years of doing nothink, now the CC will catch up fast track, good luck to all the CC, hope you can adjust the % to below 20, but I think not, if pain is to be taken, management will want max gain, wild guess is 25/26% is the bottom line number.

[Perry-oaks]

NO JACKETS REQUIRED
As a membership we gave our unions a mandate on what to negotiate

As I remember it the unanimous mandate you gave your union was -

NO to saving £82 Million.
NO to the creation of the new fleet.
NO to any further talks about this.

And a Vote of NO Confidence in Willie and Immediate Ballot for Strike Action should plans still be pushed forward.



Now whats the question!

[nuigini]

BASSA was against introduction of a new fleet but suggested themselves for a new contract on current fleets instead. BA has now done this and BASSA is mad over it. What's the problem?

[PC767]

Its in the detail nug.

Bassa suggested a new contract for new joiners. BA have scrapped new fleet as a seperate entity but proposed that the details of new fleet are accepted by existing crew.

We are to become new fleet.

What BA have proposed goes much further than Bassa's proposal.

It is far too simplistic to announce that Bassa got what they wanted so why the fuss.

And because of this naive attitude I question if your motivation goes beyond what is best for customer, company and crew. Am I being too simplistic to ask - is your motivation only what is best for the company and screw the rest?

[HiFlyer14]

I fail to understand the comment that "We are to become New Fleet". That is BASSA rhetoric at its' worst, and lacks any substance. Here is my quick on the back of an envelope assessment of the BA Proposal, which is a long way off making us New Fleet.

There are positives and it is important not to lose sight of those:

No New Fleet
This was the biggest threat to our jobs that we have ever encountered. The fact that it has gone does mean our jobs are no longer under threat.

No Pay Cut
The company are asking us to work harder (a lot!) to get more productivity, but they are NOT reducing our pay, which, in the current climate is something to be grateful for.

No Compulsory Redundancies
At the moment, we are not facing compulsory redundancies. Again under the current climate, this is something we have to keep in perspective and be thankful for.

Like it or not there are certain things that have to be accepted:
Pay freeze – this was offered by Unite originally so we have to lump it.
ORP – This was inevitable and is necessary to keep the business afloat so ACCEPT.
Crew Complements We can and have to work harder to make the necessary cost savings.
Many crew I talk to would rather lose crew onboard than lose pay. There is perhaps room for some minor adjustments to retaining crew, but then ACCEPT

WW Rest Downroute
UNITE need to negotiate this on the basis of 900hr restriction. BA have to pay A.N.Y Crewmember to stay in a hotel, and for their allowances. I fail to see how putting two crew in over 2 nights, as opposed to 1 crew member over 2 nights can save money. In addition it will have repercussions on the 900hr limit. Therefore UNITE have a good argument here and need to NEGOTIATE

EF Finish Time – 2200 – ACCEPT

EF Reduction in Days off
Giving up one day off a month is a huge loss, and warrants something in return. . Alternative options could include offering fixed links in exchange for retaining days off. NEGOTIATE HARD

Fixed Monthly Duty Payment
This does have benefits to crew in the form of guaranteed pay when on leave, sick, etc. Also benefits our pension so therefore NEGOTIATE a decent rate and accept.

Promotion Prospects
A lot of people joined BA for the promotion prospects. Therefore the Rate on New contract Supervisor has to be beneficial for existing main crew to aspire to it. Therefore NEGOTIATE a rate to be beneficial for all.

We are paying UNITE to negotiate and not to simply call Strike! at the first hurdle. Hard negotiation, hopefully now with ACAS to mediate, is essential to achieve the best possible outcome for cabin crew.

[The Blu Riband]

CC stated loudly and clearly that they wouldn't accept a big pay cut.

So BA have come up with a solution which addresses this.

Sure , there is a change in the way they'll be paid - no box payments , or destination payments, or back to back payments, or telephone allowance, etc etc etc.
But a more equitable payment which doesn't just favour the reps and those who are mates with the schedulers.

Gone will be the 2 local nights after a long range diversion, and closing cabins cos they're 1 short. And no early start after days off. And no late finish before days off!!!! etc etc etc......

The time off down route issues ( reducing to 24 hours on all layovers ) could be negotiated I'm sure.
As could the total flexible roster system; which is, in my view, totally unreasonable.

Being cabin crew is not a career, its a job. Why should they expect promotion and 20 years of payrises for what is an unskilled position.

[The Blu Riband]

Have BASSA ever actually done any negotiating?

[HiFlyer14]

The Blu Riband - we posted a minute apart with essentially the same ideas.:hmm:

If you're a pilot and I'm cabin crew, isn't that against BASSA terms of reference??;):ok:

I'll let you off the unskilled bit....until I fly with you!!!:p

[PC767]

Hiflyer. How high are you!

The no pay cut relates only to basic pay. Variable pay makes up between 40-60% of total pay. New contracters like myself often earn more in variable pay than basic salary because new contract basic is low.

No compulsary redundancy. 2000 hce jobs are going. If there is no settlement there is no voluntary redundancy. There is now a nasty rumour circulating the CRC that letters are being dispatched to crew giving 90 days notice of change of t&cs or CR.

Pay freeze. Will be accepted.

Reduced MBTs and all routes with single night stops. Find the columbus document and compare.

Promotion only to a new single supervisory role. Ditto.

[PC767]

The blue riband spouts the same old tosh about bassa not negotiating. It was BA who did not turn up this morning. Unfortunately for them sky news was there, cameras et al.

There is no wide spread rejection of a single payment to supplant other variables. But it has been given no value, so how can you state that accepting it is not a pay cut?

[The Blu Riband]

HiFlyer14
I agree with your comments wholeheartedly.

There is plenty of room for negotiation.
In fact I believe BA has moved considerably already.
Pay will drop, but not hugely, and should be fairer.
These proposals do not warrant the " I can't afford to eat " rhetoric of the reps and some crew!!

The unskilled bit was deliberately provocative as I urge crew to realise that it will still be a good, and well paid job.

Surely crew could see that box payments, 16 crew on a 747, 2 nights after a div. etc simply couldn't last forever.

BASSA must stop trying to make it personal , and put their efforts into actually trying to produce the best result for their members.

Clearly BA will not move on the "permanent" nature of the changes, so why waste the energy trying.

[HiFlyer14]

PC767 - Then we agree!

Variable pay - I said NEGOTIATE decent rate
Compulsory Redundancy - can be avoided - the ball's in our court
Pay Freeze - in agreement
Single Night Stops - I said NEGOTIATE
Promotion - NEGOTIATE

If it outside the realms of UNITE to negotiate a decent settlement on this one, then they have severely let down the membership and are not worthy of the name Union.

We both agree - it's just that you're shouting "Failure to Agree" and I'm saying "Negotiate".:)

[The Blu Riband]

767
turning up is not the same as actually negotiating.
Something BASSA has failed to do repeatedly on both counts.

And why hasn't BASSA managed to put a value on this variable payment.
Surely this is the 1st question all crew will ask.

[PC767]

.....because it isn't a bassa proposal. My expectation is that if the company wants crew to support the idea, then they will put a value on. Failure to do so only arouses suspicion.

[MrBunker]

Equally though to be fair, BASSA haven't costed their proposal either. Just stating a headline saving figure doesn't make it so. Would genuinely be interested to see how the union's proposal makes that figure.

[deeceethree]

It was BA who did not turn up this morning. Unfortunately for them sky news was there, cameras et al.Well obviously! 30th June was the cutoff for the (serious) negotiations! BASSA didn't pull it's collective finger out so, with today being 1st July, your 'free' negotiating period is finished. Is that so surprising?:rolleyes:

Its amazing that BA are even going down the route of now offering BASSA the chance to negotiate through ACAS! But it will be an even harder game to play now because BASSA fiddled while Rome burned.

And Sky News? So what? Little more than an attempt by BASSA to make it appear that they are somehow the 'injured' party in all this. Good grief! :ugh: Cutoff was YESTERDAY!

[Re-Heat]

I will not accept, from anyone who isn't Cabin Crew, how I should be renumerated and how I should operate. I don't tell Pilots, Engineers or Ground Staff how much they are worth or how to do their jobs. Necks out.
PC767 - remember the onboard legal and company hierachy...

[Andy_S]

We need to be strong and militant, so they cannot steam roller our T'C's.

BA is a business. It is run for the benefit of its shareholders. Not its staff, not even its passengers, but its shareholders. If you can get your head round this then you may understand where WW is coming from.

WW has a responsibility towards the shareholders to run the business efficiently. That includes keeping its costs under control. If any part of the business can be made more efficient, by maintaining service levels while reducing costs, then it’s WW’s job to make it so. You could actually argue that he’s been negligent by not reforming cabin crew T&C’s previously. Given BA’s current predicament, he might now see it as making a virtue out of necessity.

It's been well documented that the cost of BA cabin crew is twice that of it's nearest competitor. That is an unsightly blemish on BA's finances, and one which will be seen by the shareholders as eroding the value of their investment. That's why, sooner or later, BA will grasp this particular nettle. If WW bottles it, then it will be at the top of his successors in-tray.

[deeceethree]

NO JACKETS REQUIRED,

What you forget is that BA (cleverly) used an obscure piece of European legislation in a manner for which it was never intended. The result of that Open Skies ruling is now subject a long and protracted wrangle involving various national and European trade union organisations. This is because that particular bit of legislation could, conceivably, be used to stop industrial action by anybody, anywhere in Europe, for pretty much any reason. Or didn't BASSA tell you that?

Lets not critize others when your own house is not in order.Well, I'd still say that everyone else's house is in substantially better order than BASSA's! :ok:

[Re-Heat]

OpenSkies - a below-market rate operation that appeared to contravene a scope clause, which was feared to undermine a market-rate operation at mainline.

Cabin crew - a vastly above-market rate operation.

Two very different things.

Happy to see your costings of the continutity and viability of the operation on present Ts & Cs against the present revenue backdrop...except BASSA has not bothered to do even that...

[Lucifer]

Your union even lost its B@LLS and backed out.
Continuing to pursue to the High Court is the complete opposite of backing out. It was doggedly pursued to ensure a precedent was not set. The fact that it failed was as a result of a legal judgement and not due to backing out.

There are some great crew about, and frankly - regardless of the competitive position - the current wage for many (especially Gatwick) is low compared to the intelligence and motivation of many current crew.

However, there is a minority of overpaid, old, union stalwarts whose incessant moaning and lack of motivation is to the severe detriment of the operation and not conducive of a fun, team-based environment that it is supposed to be. Furthermore, the extreme arrogance of this exact group in claiming their superiority is in direct contrast to the quality of operation that they actually do provide, and is a direct insult not only to newer BA crew, but those professionals from outside the airline on much lesser salaries. The direct failure of BASSA in this regard has been to create gold-plated old contracts alongside newer-contract employees with differing motivations and priorities as a result.

The sooner the overpaid, older bunch are handed a P45 (with great regret to the change in lifestyle that will cause), the better.


Simple solution to the issue would be:
- Let Ops run the operation, not the union, giving Captains the right of say over whether a crew works or not (it is the flight crew only who face legal restrictions on operations, hence they who should determine use of discretion)
- Replace all allowances with duty pay, as flight crew have done, resulting in elimination of many supporting accountant roles that are unnecessary (and corruption in trip selection)
- Introduce bidding, permitting lifestyle choices and minimising sickness (as crew actually feel valued and have had a chance to actually bid for the days they require off)
- Marry cabin crew productivity requirements with that of flight crew, permitting crews to work effectively as one and eliminating animosity that is dangerous to flight safety (SFO nightstops would not be legal for flight crew, and would be so tiring as to infringe flight safety if cabin crew had to evacuate on the return leg, in my opinion).

[HiFlyer14]

Well Galley FM doing the rounds on the other forums has a rumour that letters are being sent to our homes saying Sign the new contract within 90 days or take severance.:uhoh:

Funny how the militant chants seem to have subsided somewhat....Thank you BASSA - £150000 per month in Union Subscriptions and this is all you can achieve on our behalf.

I am furious. Where does that leave those of us that never wanted to strike in the first place?

[deeceethree]

HiFlyer14,

Sadly, it leaves you up Sh1te Creek without a paddle. Not so much a 'union' as a self-interested, inefficient, interfering, unprofessional holier-than-thou organisation that has let a lot of folk down!

[ltn and beyond]

there are lots of posts here about BA not turning up for the meeting today, surely nobody expected them to be there??. The negotiation dead line of 30/06/09 has passed without agreement.

It seems that if BASSA had been more focused on actually doing a deal with BA,and them turning up on agreed date to talk to BA, then they would not be in this back to the wall situation they find themselves in now.

Negotiations need all parties to talk, thats gone now without ACAS,
BASSA's idea of waiting till others (BALPA) have done a deal then saying
"we will have the same" has no place in todays economy as they are finding.
And in any case why should a different highly skilled workforce be used as a comparason.

[MrBunker]

News filtering through that BA have refused further meetings with Unite. Quite the game of brinkmanship here.

[Runway vacated]

BA have consistently confirmed their deadline of 30th June. What is the point of having a deadline if you breach it simply because some unions have failed to reach an agreement by that time? The next time there is a deadline, nobody would take any notice of it.

It seems highly likely that the ACAS talks will give the ground staff sufficient time to dot the i's and cross the t's on what, from the sound of it, was an almost done deal.

BASSA, meanwhile, have led their troops over a cliff. The recent BA offering is infinitely worse than even the original Project Columbus proposals, that caused such outrage at the time. And BAs hand is strengthened since BASSA have already concede, via their own feeble counter "proposal", the principle of pay cuts and headcount reductions. They have badly let down their members, who have my sympathy. The next few months are going to be VERY difficult.

They claim their members are behind them. That is only because they have turned their backs on them.:(

[deeceethree]

News filtering through that BA have refused further meetings with Unite.BA stated on it's company intranet, first thing this morning, that it is now asking ACAS to involve itself in any negotiations.

[MrBunker]

Indeed. Sorry, my nuance may have been too, well, nuanced! I meant that the news I was hearing was that BA were not entertaining any further meetings full stop. Brought the use of the word may in the intranet statement re any future ACAS involvement to mind. May not, as well.

[Strimmerdriver]

2/3 of BA Cabin Crew do earn the market rate, or at least not much above it.

1/3 earn 4 times that. Bassa have fundamentally failed as a union in looking after the majority of their membership. Now they are leading the majority of crew over the cliff to protect the few.

PS the Flight Deck hasn't been asked for any savings. Flight Crew have lost between £3,000 and £6,000 each. So enough Bassa inspired bull about them and us. The problem is your inept, childish, self-serving union not the pilots.

[PC767]

Stop whittering on about pilots salaries/losses. I don't give a flying frig about them. The debate is between cabin crew and BA. I don't give a f*ck if pilots lose £6, £6000 or £60,000. Not my battle.

But I do get hacked off when pilots stick their collective noses in my battle, and regardless of onboard legal and company hierarchy, tell me how much I should earn and how many crew I need to do my job. Go on, tell me where I should live, who I should marry, what car, what school.

The only reason pilots are so concerned is because what amounts to a long term good deal could be f*cked up, because the company has allowed them to be in a position where they have an awful lot to lose. The company has also put cabin crew in a position where we have sod all to lose. So expect no sympathy that your pension or share options may be jepodised. Not my battle, nolonger my concern.

BA did not end talks last night, BA were in agreement that talks could continue, BA have not acknowledged a failure to agree status. BA have no intention of talks succeeding. On this, and only this site I hear how bassa have stalled for months. Takes two. BA changed its proposal whilst negotiations were suspended, one day before the 'self-imposed' deadline. The new proposal moved further away from the union one, not closer, no compromises, nothing that a reasonable person might expect when a company is on its knees desperate for survival. I'm certain if bassa had made the first move towards accepting BA proposals, BA would have quickly re-written them, indeed they did when £82million suddenly became £210million. Agreement was never on the cards.

I cannot believe how gullable people have been. What a stunt work for free was. We may be losing money now, but we are not skint. People choose to work for free when the company publishes that it has £1.4billion in cash banked. Find a compromise, no put the frighteners on. Oh, and in the region of 100 managers, previously made redundant on favourable terms, are being employed as consultants on upto £1000 a day! Paying ex-staff but not current staff.

The press are clearly briefed by BA. The sticking point is redundancies and a pay cut. No, the unions offered a pay cut and 3700 cabin crew expressed an interest in voluntary redundancy. The sticking point is a 37% cut in budget, the decimation of terms and conditions and a drastic cut in variable pay - pay which makes up over half our salaries. We are not stalled over a cut in basic pay. We're stalled because the posts keep moving and Walsh is engineering a dispute. He may have won on that last point.

[Dick Deadeye]

PC767

I will not accept, from anyone who isn't Cabin Crew, how I should be renumerated (sic)

Well, chances are you are going to have to!

And, when they give you a new staff number to go with you new contract, then you really will have been re-numerated! ;)

Like others who have posted, I have great sympathy for the predicament that BA Cabin Crew find themselves in. The vast majority are hard-working crew members who were a delight to fly with, and that includes many of the senior CSDs, who seem to come in for an unfair amount of criticism.

BA Cabin Crew’s major fault has been a distinct lack of interest in their union, and the way it was being run, by the few, for the benefit of the even fewer.

BASSA have completely wasted the last three months, when they should have been negotiating constructively. Sadly they performed exactly as expected by shouting NO, NO, NO, now, what was the question?

As I posted earlier, so many good, long term Cabin Crew, along with lots of excellent new ones, who all deserve better, being let down by a dinosaur of a union.

Lions represented by donkeys.

[The Blu Riband]

767 and No Jacket
I don't want to be personal , or offend you! Not at all.
But at least just ask yourselves if you are really being fairly and professionally represented.
My wife is crew and it annoys us to see how all you get is spin from Bassa.
We see the lies they spout about pilots, our agreements, and our union.

The pension issue and open skies are cases to consider.
Our union fought them honestly and with transparency, good communications and the best independant legal advice.
The pension battle was brilliantly fought and won, the other was lost on a legal technicality.

I suspect that WW will be happy to sack 100s or even 1000s of crew, and has contingency plans in place.

I have also read their proposal and it may not mean much of a pay drop.
But will result in a dramatic change in productivity.
There is still room for negotiation but Bassa need to start addressing the issues and stop taking it personally. Stop complaining about a lack of respect and find a solution.

[overstress]

PC767:

IMHO your anger would more productively be directed at BASSA, not pilots :eek:

[PC767]

strimmer. I was typing/baby sitting whilst you made your post. My post was directed at those before yours.

The blu riband. BA nologer wish to talk.

Overstress. Bassa and wish to die/strike now merchants get my anger too.

[Classic]

Bassa reps have always wanted and sought power and influence over the operation - that's what they value most.

All of a sudden someone (WW) turns up who has the audacity to question their authority and power, and Bassa hate it. Hence the constant personal attacks on him. Get rid of him and Bassa will be back in control and will write their own Ts and Cs.

That's why Bassa's proposals have been such ill-considered rubbish, they are far less concerned about negotiating Ts and Cs than they are about getting rid of their nemesis and taking control of the train set again.

Endex for Bassa

[nuigini]

Oh, and in the region of 100 managers, previously made redundant on favourable terms, are being employed as consultants on upto £1000 a day! Paying ex-staff but not current staff.

Been covered before. It's actually cheaper to take them back as consultants as BA doesn't have to pay any pension and other supplements.

The blu riband. BA nologer wish to talk.

Deadline was yesterday. Why should BA come to further meetings?

[Juan Tugoh]

I'm sure BA would happily let upto 2000 cabin crew go - it is after all what they have stated. It would certainly be a heck of a sight cheaper for them than any redundancy package.

BASSA members better be very, very, very sure that they are not volunteering for dismissal by taking part in any illegal industrial action.

BASSA do not have a good track record of being open and honest and disclosing all the details to their members - this could and probably will be used by BA lawyers to prevent strike action - again BA have a track record of this, BALPA had to disclose all relevant info, including forum posts to the court over Open Skies.

If there was ever a time for BASSA to smarten their act up it would be right now.

[The Blu Riband]

Classic
possibly, but I think it's more likely that these are just ordinary crew, ordinary people, undertrained and prepared, with no particular qualifications or experience, thrust into a heady world of politics and self-importance.
Not to mention expense accounts and weghty expectation.

They have coped, but at their own colleagues expense.

[The Blu Riband]

The truth is that these reps are massively out of their depth!
Tragic ain't it! :(

[Adi54321]

For those that point out that BA keep moving the goal posts. Its because the economy and BA's financial state keep deteriorating. Hence failure to negotiate has brought you to where you are now. I suspect even if they were to come back to the table their demands would change again.

On another note, those that also think the departure of WW will fix everything, Virgin have anounced today that they eare dropping a HKG and a LAX flt and completely suspending/pulling out of Chicago for the winter. Good luck to all of their staff/pilots/cc that will now lose their jobs without a chance to negotiate any thing.

(I've seen the same doom and gloom message from their top man as BA spouted for months - cash flow etc etc. So much for Branson's usual running his mouth off ! )

[PC767]

nug.

Do I recall that you claim to be cabin crew? If so why are you so adamant that you and your colleagues should just roll over and accept BA's proposals. Where will it stop. We've already got staff working for free whilst £1.4billion of cash is in the bank - next request, pay to work.

On that point, the company is jubilant that it saved £10million, a raging success the initiative proved to be. Thats 3 days and a couple of hours worth of savings. Failure.

[Carnage Matey!]

And how long do you think the company will last on £1.4 billion when we're not making any money? Do you think the downturn will be over in a year? You'd better hope it is because we lost £800M last year and we could easily lose that again this year. Saying "No change!" is what got you into this problem in the first place.

[hunterboy]

At the risk of sounding smug, venting spleens here on pprune is a waste of ink. Those that do have a "vote", i.e BASSA members can do what they wish on their union site and apply pressure where they wish to. The rest of us are merely interested observers with vested interests.
I have no wish to see anybody lose money or lifestyle, but again, it matters not what I wish.
If I were in the position that many BASSA members are in, I would be asking searching questions of my representatives about what has been happening for the past 6 months, and what are the alternatives in the next few weeks.
I would also start researching my employment rights should it all turn nasty. Worse case, I'd also be applying for other jobs.
What I wouldn't do is bet my house on a BASSA victory.

[CFC]

BA is now in dispute with UNITE - not just Bassa, which is affiliated to UNITE.

UNITE represent nearly 30,000 BA workers, not just crew. They are regularly meeting together, something that has never happened before.

WW is definitely in for a rough ride - roll on the ballot papers!

[Glamgirl]

For those crew who do not want to strike (if it comes to that), you have two options: Vote NO to strike but go on strike to follow the big herd, or, Vote NO, stick with it and come to work. The company must protect you and there will be ways of getting you to/from work without you being "ambushed".

Eggs/sticks/stones doesn't scare me. I will stick with what is right for me, I am an individual and I will do what is most suitable to my situation. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me, but we're all entitled to our own opinion.

Gg

[CFC]

BigBrutha - PwC - is that who Balpa listened to then for all of that excellent advice?

[Carnage Matey!]

CFC - PWC are accountants, not lawyers, but then as you don't wish to know about BAs financial situation I would't expect you to understand that. Lawyers are the people who'll be getting the high court injunction to stop you striking.

As an interesting aside to todays claims that BA didn't turn up at the meetings, it's hardly a surprise. BA announced negotiations were at an end last night and the union representatives should stand down until they were contacted by ACAS regarding the next step. They didn't even book a room at the venue as no negotiations were scheduled today. Makes you wonder why the union reps turned up with TV crews when they'd been told the night before that there was no meeting.

[keel beam]

It has been mentioned/rumoured that the 90 day notice letters have been posted.

If you were WW what date would you post the notice.

ASAP - as the company needs to make savings and reduce cash outflow quickly.

31st July - 90 days later is the end of the summer schedule and the start of the winter schedule, when flights are greatly reduced.

30th September - a nasty date as 90 days later is christmas.




Runway Vacated


They claim their members are behind them. That is only because they have turned their backs on them

Sounds like that may feature in BASSA's epitaph :eek:

[PC767]

From Walsh, june 23rd.

We started this year with £1.4 billion in cash and told the market that we aimed to finish the year with £1 billion.

Now, I never said we didn't face a problem, but what I find astonishing is that just after the CEO states the situation is so desperate that he needs staff to work for no payment, he then releases an email with the above quote. Why the hell would anyone work for free when the company is sat on such reserves.

One way to preserve the cash balance is to protect the dwindling forward bookings which are available. Instead Walsh scares custom away, then, and I'm certain this is now the case, engineers industrial action. We are losing £3million a day. Thanks to Walsh that figure will rise. Walsh needs to convince unite that a compromise exists and restore customer confidence. So far his method has only worsened a bad situation.

[hunterboy]

I think I'm correct in saying that a substantial amount of that 1 Billion cash is actually passenger ticket money that has been paid in advance. Once BA's reserves fall below a certain value, the travel agencies/credit card companies stop forwarding us the cash until the passenger has flown ( just in case BA go bust in the mean time). This is at about the same time that the oil companies start asking for cash up front rather than payment a month in arrears (in case BA go bust again).
Obviously BA want to keep the precise amount at which our creditors lose confidence in us very close to its chest, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist (or a BASSA rep) to realise it could be around December time at our present cash flows.
One only has to take a look at BA's monthly fuel bill to see that if we have to pay for fuel up front, we are finished as a business.
My guess is we are paying at least 100 million a month for fuel. 6 months of that reduces our 1.4 billion "cash" to 800 million and takes us to December. Then BA's losses really kick in for the winter.
All this is obvious stuff. Hopefully, the rocket scientist BASSA reps have drawn up a new business plan for BA as well as a new industrial agreement and we will all be able to go back to how things were.

[Juan Tugoh]

Last year's fuel bill was £3billion so the maths is quite simple - last year BA paid £250million a month in fuel alone. That was up £1billion on the previous year, or £166.67 million a month. So it's probably in the region of £200million a month so that Dec estimate is out by quite a large margin. The real date is probably closer to Sep hence this needs sorting ASAP.

[hunterboy]

At the risk of being picky, I gather that we have hedged at lower prices than last year, so our fuel bill this year should be less than the 3 Billion last year. However, I agree with the sentiment that the company has to get a firm grip on its costs fast.
One could argue that the unions that settled first have played a blinder as it is difficult for the company to come back with modified demands, however, those unions that haven't signed are now having to deal with moving goalposts.
That's not to say that the company wont come back with the begging bowl in October.

[Walnut]

I believe the real crunch will come when the pension acturies release their scheme shortfall numbers. Yes all the potential savings which BA is hoping to achieve from salary sacrifice and changed working conditions will help, but they pale into insignificance when pension liabilities of circa 3 billion are published. The sums which BA paid into the schemes last year easily accounted for the 400 million posted loss.
What I believe we are seeing here is a fundimentially sound company IF it could just divest itself of these huge pension liabilities.
I just do not think the UK wants BA, the national carrier, to fail so maybe the government should take these liabilities onto its books? The sum involved is tiny compared to the Billions that have been spent on supporting the UK banks. In exchange BA could give the government shares as collateral.

[deeceethree]

I just do not think I just do not think the UK wants BA, the national carrier, to fail so maybe the government should take these liabilities onto its books? wants BA, the national carrier, to fail so maybe the government should take these liabilities onto its books?What do you base that on? Who do you mean by "the UK"? And the government has mired itself (sorry, the next 2 generations of taxpayers) in such huge debt that there will be no handouts for BA. Forget it! BA is not considered a 'heartland' for Labour voters!

[Strimmerdriver]

Thanks PC767 post removed & apology accepted.

Best Wishes Strimmer

[deeceethree]

Has PC767 been naughty ..... again? :)

[PC767]

Most likely!:)

[Perry-oaks]

I am intrigued as to what the BASSA negotiators have actually been doing for the last few months?

IMHO the fruits of their ceaseless toil appears to be cherry picking the best bits of other departments agreements and cobbling them together.

[JayPee28bpr]

"What I believe we are seeing here is a fundimentially sound company IF it could just divest itself of these huge pension liabilities...so maybe the government should take these liabilities onto its books? The sum involved is tiny compared to the Billions that have been spent on supporting the UK banks."

Two problems with your logic here. Firstly, if the government does this for BA, then it's hard to see how they can refuse to do it for every other underfunded defined benefit pension scheme. The total deficit of all such schemes is around £250-300 billion right now. Secondly, the government already has about £750 billion in unfunded pension scheme liabilities of its own employees (civil servants, NHS workers etc). It's likely that the government will want to cap these in future, ie stop public sector defined benefit pension schemes. I suspect keeping this quiet until after the election is one reason the comprehensive spending review has been shelved until post-election. Anyway, there's no chance of the government taking on additional private sector pension liabilities. The UK would lose its AAA rating within days if the government adopted this approach. Keeping it is more valuable than a few thousand BA staff, I'm afraid, painful though that may be to hear.

BA has got itself into a pension mess which sees its pension schemes valued at approximately 8x that of the company itself, with a deficit equal to 5-6 years of "normal" pre-tax profits. It's BA's problem to get out of it. As pensions are simply deferred income, one way of mitigating the pension problem is to cap, or even reduce, current salary levels and staff numbers entitled to such pensions, thereby also reducing projected pensions payable in future.

Incidentally, the deficit numbers may not be as bad as you think. If long term interest rates rise, and they have been doing in recent weeks, that actually decreases the present value of pension liabilities. As asset values have risen since March, when they hit 10-12 year lows, the pension schemes will have had a double benefit over the last three months. There will still be a (big) deficit, but might not be at the £3 billion level.

[PC767]

I'm also intrigued as to what BA negotiators have been doing for the last few months.

[overstress]

PC767: Going along to meetings that BASSA failed to turn up to? Negotiating agreements with all other departments?

[KUMOOZ]

Some incredible dissection of numbers and figures guys!
My Doris is a LH purser at LHR and I really wish she could keep earning c£30k a year before she can tell them to stick it. The sad fact is that nowhere else in the industry do CC enjoy either the terms, conditions and salaries that you currently enjoy. I know you have fought long and hard for them but the fact is they are way way above the industry standard and norm. Thats the hard to digest truth.
Vote to strike over this and you are putting a noose around your own neck if not the companies future...its hard to take but more than likely a fair assessment.
Good luck!

[PC767]

Overstress.

Have I missed something? Has every department finalised a deal?

KUMOOZ, You appear to be in a position to lose Doris's money, or at least your willingness to surrender the money makes it appear so. I am not unfortunately. The problem is BA are supplying the noose.

[DAVID ELLIOTT]

All I Have To Say Is Please Wake Up, And Do Not Lose Your Fantastic Jobs X

[Reargunner]

The idea that the increases in costs to be saved from the IFCE budget are due to delays in reaching an agreement doesn't quite add up.

2 months ago the original ask was to save £82m from IFCE budget (£568m) which was about 14%

At the same point Flight Ops had a target of saving £13m from their budget (£445) which was 2.9%

Both those targets have been increased. Now Flight Ops is to cut £38.5m which is 8.6% and IFCE £210m which is 37%.

There seems to have been a similar rate of increase applied to the 2 departments.

I am actually a little relieved by this...not because of some inapproriate and foolish notion about fairness....but because I was concerned that the whole intention of the LT was to force us to fail. After all, every time BASSA reached their asking figure, they increased it. Seemed strange, but perhaps that is the way business is done.

As for the accusation that our negotiaition has failed because of inadequate effort or unethical bias in the part of the BASSA reps...I disagree. The simple fact that they had to negotiate a cut 4 times the size of the BALPA negotiations is sufficient explanation for me. The larger the cut, the more difficult the task.

Anyway, now I have read the threads on this topic (took a while, but luckily I almost never go to work - I'm BA cc and we sit around wondering what luxury to buy with our inflated wages that might fill some of our excessive time off). I feel I have a much better understanding of the whole situation. As the FO said to me, the other week...I'm sick of being such a terrible burden to WW and I'm going to send him an immediate apology!;)

I shall now do likewise. Thank you for putting me right.

[CFC]

Posted by BigBrutha:

What evidence do you have that Walsh has scared away business? I could equally argue that he has bought us customers- customers who would hate to see BA fail, who may not have booked with us if it wasn't for him explaining how close we are to the brink. I have seen no evidence of any adverse effect from the publicity we've had recently. But I do know talks breaking down with Unions, and irresponsible unions beating their chests will scare passengers away very quickly. As of course will a ballot for IA.

The above comment sums up just how out of touch many are who use this forum. I find it quite incredible that some are burying their heads in the sand, blame CC, blame Unions, blame everybody else, from their smug position of having their "savings to the company" sorted.

If any of you on hear think that the customers are not ALREADY moving then I suggest you stretch your legs a bit more and ask for yourself.

[Witraz]

The problem is BA are supplying the noose.

They offered a length of rope. This shortened as the knot was tied.

Doesn't mean you have to put your head in it..............

[overstress]

Reargunner

As for the accusation that our negotiaition has failed because of inadequate effort or unethical bias in the part of the BASSA reps...I disagree. The simple fact that they had to negotiate a cut 4 times the size of the BALPA negotiations is sufficient explanation for me. The larger the cut, the more difficult the task.

You believe your sufficient explanation, in a few months time, looking back, you may come to a different opinion.

My only advice would be to not rely solely on BASSA for your view of the world!

[ROSCO328]

Well you boys and girls get no sympathy from me! Most of you live in complete fantasy and are going to hit the ground hard. Face it BA is a dinosaur in the modern airline industry and simply cannot compete with the likes of Easyjet and ryanair who where saving cash left right and centre long before the recession even started. Simple fact is you bend or the company will brake.:rolleyes:

[Brown Bess]

Truth is, if you strike, then you blow everything that people have saved through the BRS scheme.

[Classic]

Reargunner said:2 months ago the original ask was to save £82m from IFCE budget (£568m) which was about 14%

At the same point Flight Ops had a target of saving £13m from their budget (£445) which was 2.9%

Both those targets have been increased. Now Flight Ops is to cut £38.5m which is 8.6% and IFCE £210m which is 37%.

There seems to have been a similar rate of increase applied to the 2 departments.

Wrong Reargunner.

The original saving for Flt Ops was to keep costs level for two years. Each year's increase in costs if everything remained the same, would have been £13m. That's how the cuts were described initially.
However if you take 2 years cuts, the first being £13m, the second being £26m and add them up, you get £39m!!! That's the figure now used to demonstrate our savings.

Our savings target has never changed, we negotiated carefully calculated cuts that minimised their effects on pilots whilst achieving the required cost reductions.

So now you can go back to being less 'relieved' again.

(Glad to see more CF members here!)

[HiFlyer14]

There's an awful lot of number crunching going on!

I don't feel BA have moved the goalposts at all. We have always known that huge savings were required - the Union have been in denial and refused to save anything like the figures required. BASSA, in an attempt to show a degree of logic, are now pumping out figures left, right and centre with no substantian or evidence. Their proposal alleges to save £173 million. Evidence? Verified by who? Worked out by who - a couple of CSD BASSA reps who are probably on BOAC contracts and haven't stepped foot in the real world since 1960?

And now the figures of 37%. What does that figure mean? Where is the evidence of it? How was it arrived at? Please - enlighten me.

CC are pumping out these figures now on other forums in an attempt to show "how hard done by we are":ugh:This is turning into a farce.

In the meantime, the clock is ticking, nothing is being achieved, and we may very soon have imposition. Glamgirl - I'll be right there with you crossing that picket line - if we ever get the chance to get that far.:*

[CFC]

I repeat:

BA is now in dispute with UNITE - not just Bassa, which is affiliated to UNITE.

UNITE represent nearly 30,000 BA workers, not just crew. They are regularly meeting together, something that has never happened before.

WW is definitely in for a rough ride - roll on the ballot papers!

[nuigini]

BASSA is taking another step and has spoken to the Daily Mail about a one page story. It should come down to £38.000!

[zebedeee]

"BA is now in dispute with UNITE - not just Bassa, which is affiliated to UNITE.

UNITE represent nearly 30,000 BA workers, not just crew. They are regularly meeting together, something that has never happened before.

WW is definitely in for a rough ride - roll on the ballot papers!"

Just be careful there, if crew vote to strike over crew issues, the law would not support all BA UNITE members going in strike for support. To strike it has to be for legitimate reasons that concern your own job, not other people's.

[CFC]

Mayday! BA goes into a tailspin - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/5713713/Mayday-BA-goes-into-a-tailspin.html)

[Lucifer]

Are you certain that BA's dispute with Unite is not related to another employee group that has also been negotiating for months, and has yet to reach agreement...?

Still, just by virtue of being in the same union, does not permit joint strike action of both employee groups, operating on different contracts, agreements and in different locations.

[HiFlyer14]

Yes CFC we can all pick and choose an article from a paper supporting whatever we want to believe. After all, we all earn £29000 don't we??

The fact is we are achieving nothing by all of this. I personally want to do my bit to get the company back on it's feet. I will work harder. If it has to be me and one other crew member on a flight, then I'll do it (just rhetoric Willie;)), I'll have less time off downroute, and I will be more productive. And I will do it with a smile on my face, looking after the customers that I love helping every day and providing a PREMIUM service that I have been trained to do.

We are in the midst of a recession and our company is asking us to work a bit harder and retain the same levels of pay. I bet Woolworths, Barrat shoes, Lehman staff etc would think we are :mad: lucky! In fact, I bet there isn't anyone outside of BA that doesn't think that's a reasonable proposition.

What more do you want?

[Thebaxfactor]

Staggering, truly and completely staggering. As a long faithful passenger of BA, with a keen interest in aviation, and speaking as someone who has been caught in the various 'summers of discontent' I can only laugh at the comments of those who are apparently willing to go to war with the company. BASSA was broken during the last dispute, it can never recover. There is no possibility that BA cabin crew will blindly follow the leadership of a union that can deliver nothing. BA cabin crew are by and large intelligent and aware of the global picture - They meet and talk to people who are affected by the recession every single day, and I have every trust they will work out what to do with a ballot paper. The game is over, accept it or not, it doesn't matter - The world has moved on. There is no fight, because there is no army.

[Reargunner]

Hi Classic,

Not sure who you are...but I appreciate the info anyway.

So the target was to hold the Flight Op budget level for 2 years. Actually BASSA did tell me that, I forgot! Nevertheless I am a little 'relieved' (still). The fact that the targets map each other still suggests to me that IFCE are not just increasing the target to avoid it being met, which was a real fear. After all, if BA want the talks to fail, then there is absolutely no hope. I admit, there isn't much anyway....but I do like to hold my glimmer!

Is the productivity side...the loss of the Heavy Captain and the adjusments to report/clear times (am I right in understanding you made those concessions too?) signed off forever, or can you hope to reinstate them in the future/after 2 years?

Can't remember who posted on the impact of 900hrs and the unworkability of long range night stops (was it flyer747?). You would be right if it wasn't for the fact of about 50% of cc being on part time contracts. 900hrs cannot restrict them. This is what BA have been able to use to hold the full time crew to the eu legislation.

I think the point that Unite are the parent union for all the branches mentioned...BASSA, CC89, GSS, A scales etc is not suggesting that any one group can break the law to interfere with the others dispute, but they can nevertheless coordinate the way they choose to apply pressure. As long as each group is in a dispute over its own pay and conditions that's not secondary action.

[Human Factor]

Is the productivity side...the loss of the Heavy Captain and the adjusments to report/clear times (am I right in understanding you made those concessions too?) signed off forever, or can you hope to reinstate them in the future/after 2 years?

You're correct in your understanding. No doubt BALPA will try to negotiate some of the changes back in a few years if they're able to, however this was sold to us on the basis that it's permanent and that's what we all expect.:ouch:

[Stall Pusher]

Yes Walnut (post 72). Gordon Brown has ruined Final Salary schemes in the UK with his steath tax grab on pension tax credits when he was Chancellor. UK pensions schemes have lost around £100 billion up to now. The government should guarantee UK final salary pensions as it guarantees gold plated state pensions. Why should UK companies be so uncompetitive compared with those in the EU that do not have this burden?

Brown has been quick to nationalise the failed banks in the UK, support the car industry via the scrappage scheme and the housing market by cancelling stamp duty on properties under £175,000. Also airlines in the UK generate a lot of income for the goverment via APD, does Brown really want to see this goose die because of the burdens he has placed on UK business and the airline industry in particular?

[Stall Pusher]

By the way BaxFactor, you are talking utter rubbish.

The membership of BASSA are absolutely incandescent. Wait until the meeting on Monday and write another post after that when you are better informed.

[arem]

The membership of BASSA are absolutely incandescent.

Ah, so they have seen the light -- sorry:cool:

[Witraz]

Stall Pusher.
I couldn't agree with you more......
The 1500 hardliners who attend the meeting and stand to loose the most will give 100% support.
What about the other 13 000 who will not be there..............?

[JayPee28bpr]

"Also airlines in the UK generate a lot of income for the goverment via APD"

APD currently generates about £900 million per year. That's the equivalent of about 0.4% on the basic rate of income tax. It's a flea bite in terms of the government's tax raising.

[Super Stall]

Yes Walnut (post 72). Gordon Brown has ruined Final Salary schemes in the UK with his steath tax grab on pension tax credits when he was Chancellor. UK pensions schemes have lost around £100 billion up to now.


Robber Brown's pension tax grab certainly did not help, but will only account for around £300m of a deficit estimated at around £3bn.:sad::\

Can't see any government guaranting a DB pension fund just because yields are low and everybody is living longer. Any DB scheme except there own ofc.:*

[Stall Pusher]

So all the "hardliners" are there at the same time Witraz? More rubbish.

As in April's meeting, it will be a cross section of cabin crew who happen to be home on the day.

There are over 11,500 members in BASSA. However I predict that a huge majority will be taking a 'hardline'. Most of BASSA's members are female, who fortunately are willing to stand up to a bullying, opportunistic and incompetent BA management.

[Stall Pusher]

I think Super Stall that there needs to be a root and branch rethink in the UK on how pensions are funded as clearly the current system is far from adequate in the UK.

How does Air France provide retirement benefits for its staff for instance?

[Carnage Matey!]

Yawn yawn, most of BASSAs members are female etc, this is bullying and sexism and badism and whatever other ism you care to name. I double dare you to take it to a tribunal, I could do with a laugh! When all the militants meet at Kempton on the 6th can you remind them to all to jump with joy, whoop and cheer when they have a show of hands for a strike ballot? It makes for great TV when you celebrate ruining peoples holidays.:E

Now if I remember correctly Air France crews pensions are part of a nationwide fund that incorporates crew from several airlines and is partly funded by the government. Problem is the French government is sitting on an even bigger pensions timebomb than we are!

[RoyHudd]

A lot of people in aviation are looking forward to seeing BA's quote "overpaid, underworked" cabin crew lose their jobs. I hear them say this, CC from other companies including my own.

If this happens, I will be sad. It will probably mean other people in related functions will also lose their jobs. Not really fair.

I just wish the BA folk would help out their colleagues and their company, although it means new and lower T & C's.

I feel they will not agree with this viewpoint. Unfortunate.

[fincastle84]

Good luck as you drive yourselves out of a job. I have enjoyed flying BA for many years because of the professional aircrew. You wretched dinosaurs should face reality; get real or see a great airline go under.
Alternatively, apply for a job at Ryanair. Don't hold your breath for an interview! :=

[JayPee28bpr]

"I think...that there needs to be a root and branch rethink in the UK on how pensions are funded as clearly the current system is far from adequate in the UK"

I think you'll find the rethink has already happened. For the past 15 years companies have been closing defined benefit pension schemes to new entrants, reducing benefits (eg linking to average as opposed to final pay) etc. Contributions to defined contribution pensions (ie those where the member takes all the investment risk) now exceed contributions to defined benefit schemes. There is no likelihood of any return to DB schemes. They are just too expensive.

I agree with your second point. Unfortunately it's not possible to have a grown up debate about pension provision, but that's primarily the fault of politicians who have exceptionally good pension provision, courtesy of taxpayers, and don't want to engage in debate knowing it will immediately focus on their pensions and the £750 billion of unfunded public sector liabilities that UK taxpayers are already on the hook for.

Finally, I know from previous posts that you feel "the government" (ie taxpayers) ought to cover pension scheme liabilities. Presumably you see this as a salvation for BA with its scheme deficit. Unfortunately you, personally, would almost certainly lose money if the government took your approach. Why? Well I think we can assume they'd have to treat all schemes similarly. BA's pensions are about 10-15% underfunded, or £3 billion in absolute terms. It was announced this week that the BT pension scheme, the largest in the UK, is 43% underfunded, which I reckon is somewhere between £45-50 billion in absolute terms. You'd have to pay your share of tax to cough up the £45 billion in return for receiving your share of £3 billion. It's not a good deal for anyone at BA, I'd suggest.

[Andyismyname]

HiFlyer14, you stated "Yes CFC we can all pick and choose an article from a paper supporting whatever we want to believe. After all, we all earn £29000 don't we??"

The 'article' I think you are referring to is actually the data published independently by the UK CAA. The data has been published annually, since 1994, I think.

It shows the cost of employing the employees. So it includes Pension, National Insurance, Uniform, Training etc.

So just so that you are aware, it says on average it costs BA around £29000 to employ each Cabin Crew member. Not, that all earn £29000.

However, it also highlights that it costs BA twice the amount it costs Virgin to employ its Cabin Crew.

As we are paid as Air Cabin Crew, and hence can reasonably be expected to go flying, there is no way that our remuneration is 'minimum wage', as some of my colleagues have been saying that it is.

[wobble2plank]

The membership of BASSA are absolutely incandescent.

A somewhat sweeping statement one feels.

The CC I have just chatted to over the past 5 days are indeed incandescent. However they are incandescent at the total lack of information being given to them about a situation that will have a huge affect on their jobs and lifestyle.

If I am being truly honest then about 1 in 50 CC are real, heavy BASSA supporters. The rest are concerned primarily for their jobs and their futures and THEY, not me or my interpretation but THEY are concerned at the mess BASSA have left them in.

If it does come to a ballot then I feel that BASSA may well get a shock when their 1500 massive turnout at Kempton Park from 14000 becomes a much smaller voting minority and most of the clear thinking CC walk away from BASSA. In these tough times the quieter CC are thinking it will be better to be new contract than no contract.

BASSA have left it all too late and are now throwing their toys out of the cot because they failed to reach an agreement by the deadline.

Don't forget in the pay statistics that 25% of the top crew take 60% of the wage bill.

[Longhitter]

If you had done some research you would have found out that BA is the only major airline in Europe with the pension funds on it's books.

Air France personnel's pensions are arranged through a national fund for all flight crew in France that is separate from the company, and supervised by the french government. A deficit will not weigh on the company's financial situation, the worst that will happen is that employer and employee contributions go up and pensions are frozen or lowered by a small percentage to enhance the coverage factor. In the event of bankruptcy pensions are not affected.

In KLM the pension funds for pilots and CC are specifically for that company, but privately managed and supervised by the dutch national bank. The fund is NOT on the books with KLM, so a deficit will not weigh on the company's financial situation (again: worst thing is higher conributions or frozen payments). The money is safe in the case of bankruptcy.

Don't know about Lufthansa, but I suspect it will be the same for them.

BA is in serious trouble over it's pension deficit, and it has a direct influence on financial viability and creditability. AF-KL was recently able to raise 660 million Euro through convertible bonds (they wanted 540 million but the emission was overwritten by 120 million), I seriously doubt that people are willing to invest in BA in the same way with this gaping hole in it's balance sheet...

You guys better strike a deal fast!

[T5 Mole]

What arrogance. Many don't work in BA as there are other great airlines in the UK other than BA. Just goes to show how much the BASSA castle is built on sand...

The government should guarantee UK final salary pensions as it guarantees gold plated state pensions.Brilliant. You're prepared to absolutely screw my generation, who not only has no opportunity to have a DB scheme, but also is paying through the nose for the excesses of your generation's scheme liabilities.

You can be guaranteed inter-generational warfare as well if you continue down that road!

Why should I bother looking at what other countries provide. I asked the questionPerhaps a basic degree of research might help you look more informed and less reactionary...you implied a position without having done research and were proven quite incorrect in your assumption.


(I note that SP appears to have retracted the ingratitude quoted above by deleting his/her post).

[Longhitter]

You asked a question and I answered it for you. It is apparently too much effort to say "thank you"...

If that is the same attitude you display towards the clients that pay your salary it is no wonder that BA's premium passengers are running away :}

Good luck, you'll need it.

[wobble2plank]

SP,

When is BASSA going to wake up and look over its LHR fortress walls and see what is occuring in the real world.

Airlines are laying off staff all over the world. The recession is hitting airlines particularly hard as, with the dramatic rise in oil prices showed, we as an industry, are open to the foibles of many, many other sectors of the business community.

Why should BA land be any different? Why, when other airlines are shedding jobs, cutting routes, grounding aircraft and scrabbling for bank loans should BA be making it all up?

The final salary pensions schemes were killed when Robber Brown started reneging on the tax incentives put there to safeguard future accruals by the Conservative government. GB's 'safe hands' approach to the UK economy was fuelled by pension fund tax rapes. Sad but true. Now, in the coming post New Labour utopia, the country is broke, pension funds are broke and we, as tax payers, have to carry the burden of the £1.2 Trillion Government pension fund? Fair, nope. Taxing the future generations before they are born? Yep.

The Government must sort out the pension funds for the Public Sector but that is another debate. Who and why should private funds be guaranteed? How can the tax payer be expected to pay into a private fund and guarantee it at the same time? If a private pension fund has no money in the pot, ala BA, then it needs to be closed to both future and current employees before the deficit kills the company.

Unfortunately your posts over the past weeks have shown a tunnel mentality where the word owes BASSA a favour and BASSA can live and exist outside the general rules of business.

No, it can't. It is about time that the leadership (sic) of BASSA recognised that and started to represent their members and not just themselves.

[plodding along]

From the pilot meeting with Willie last night a question asked was why cc are not being told what's going on by the company, just digesting BASSA newsletters.

The answer was that it was agreed that DURING the talks no information would be divulged by EITHER side due to the changing nature of negotiations.

(BALPA kept that promise during their negotiations, it was slightly frustrating but stopped hype and hysteria)

BA has kept to that, hence no comms.

BASSA could not keep quiet hence all the emotional newsletters.

As the deadline has passed BA will shortly be communicating directly with cabin crew so they have the opportunity to hear the other side of the story if they wish to listen.

With balanced comms and the introduction of ACAS things WILL progress.
It may not be to everyone's liking but it was clear that it WILL happen to ensure the future of the company.

The BASSA meeting on Monday will be too early to serve any purpose, it will just fire up the militants.

A good union would delay it until BA has put out it's comms and ACAS has had an input. A GOOD union I said!

Good luck all.

[Classic]

Stallpusher continues to demonstrate a simplistic, one dimensional, Bassa/Socialist Worker Party view of the world, summed up by:

1. LHR cabin crew hate BA because BA hates them.
2. They detest Willie Walsh, (because he has the audacity to question their authority in controlling the operation).
3. Anyone who questions or criticises Bassa is jealous of them.
4. Anyone not in BA wasn't good enough to get into BA and is therefore jealous.
5. The government will support BA because BA is a national institution that the public would insist on being propped up by nationalisation.
6. Cabin crew and pilots do the same job on board and should be treated the same.
7. When it comes to a ballot and they get a 80% strike ballot from a 30% return, it will be considered an overwhelming mandate for IA.

I think that sums it up.

The last time I came across these attitudes was listening to the likes of Scargill, McGachey, and Red Robbo. Look what happened to the workers they represented SP.

[Crash_and_Burn]

I can't wait to hear the rhetoric from the Kempton Park meeting on Monday. I could do with a good laugh! I'd love to know what they are going to talk about when nothing has happened yet, it can't be to share information......

All that subscription money going to good use.. I hope the champagne is top quality.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[bermudatriangle]

There seems to be no end to BASSA bashing on this forum,from non-cabin crew.I believe the union are doing their utmost to preserve their members pay and conditions,after all,that is why employees pay their subscriptions.
The arguements over BA's long term survival and desperate need to decimate the remuneration of it's cabin crew and groundstaff is open to debate.My personal view,is that the economy will recover,oil prices will remain stable and BA will return to profitability.But who am i to speculate,if i was that wise i would be a very wealthy individual by now.
I have no doubt that the BA leadership are hell bent on forcing permanent cost savings through,during this window of opportunity,as world economies are in recession.Equally,i admire the efforts of the trade unions to get the best possible outcome for their members.
The 2 sides seem to be oceans apart in coming to agreement,the union making some concessions and BA management stating the company is in a fight for survival and at the same time,expecting AA and Iberia to join the supposed "sinking ship".
Very mixed messages and i do not blame the unions for their lack of trust in any figures quoted at them by the company.
As in all negotiations,it's a game of poker,will be very interesting to see who can keep their nerve during these difficult weeks ahead.

[Carnage Matey!]

So we can take it you subsribe to the "ignore it and it'll blow over" school of thought then? How long do you think it'll take to blow over, and will BA run out of cash before then? If the trade union strangles the golden goose is that the best outcome for members?

PS Can you think of a reason why Iberia might not want to join the sinking ship (until it stops sinking)?

[MrBunker]

Management on CC intranet webchat right now.

[bermudatriangle]

Carnage,i am never one to duck the issue.My belief is that BA can absorb huge fines for price fixing,£300 million if my memory is correct,the gulf war,with it's massive downturn is passengers,september 11th and it's well documented legacy.The current recession will end,when is anyones guess.The savings BA want from its cabin crew and groundstaff pale into insignificance with the huge ammounts the aforementioned events cost the airline.Reducing staff salaries will not save the airline or bancrupt it,however the ammounts involved are not insignificant.
I do feel and i reiterate this point,that their is a definite current agenda to decimate working conditions for staff that have been enjoyed for many years.As a worker myself,i would rather see less well rewarded employees aspire to achieve more themselves,rather than rejoice at the prospect of seeing other workers having their pay and conditions eroded.

[T5 Mole]

There seems to be no end to BASSA bashing on this forum,from non-cabin crew.
Might is be as BASSA are threatening any chance of survival of the company, and that others also want to keep their jobs...?!

My personal view,is that the economy will recover,oil prices will remain stable and BA will return to profitability.But who am i to speculate,if i was that wise i would be a very wealthy individual by now.
The economy is getting worse. Oil prices continue to rise. BA is presently loss-making, and without sufficient funds to cover working capital, will die as surely as Alitalia, Sabena and PanAm have died in the past.

The cookie jar of the UK government is not only shut but empty. An airline's survival is incomparable to a bank that supports payments systems. Without BA, Lufthansa, Virgin and Air France will happily grow at LHR and employ more people at market rate.

If you fail to negotiate, everyone in the airline will be joining one of the above at market rate.

[Poof in Boots]

Well Bermuda, it is nice to see a reasoned post here instead of the normal 'Pavlov's Dog' BASSA Bashing employed by the usual suspects.

BASSA/UNITE has been negotiating in spite of diatribes to the contrary here.

BA management have painted themselves into a corner by raising the bar so high, that even the merest concession by them will still leave a massive void. So any further ground given by BA mnagement will be seen as a climbdown and a loss of face by them.

I see that even VIRGIN's management relate to the same business school model of "FredtheShreddist-Klepto- Handinthetill" instincts as BA's, lining their pockets whilst laying off their poorly paid cabin crew by the hundred.

[Carnage Matey!]

Bermuda - BA incurred a £300M fine. You can complain all you like about it, but unless you can get the authorities to pay it back it doesn't materially change the fact the company doesn't have enough cash. Interestingly nobody ever asks whether the the fine was more or less than the sum BA made through price fixing.

Gulf War 2 and 9/11 were nothing like the downturns we are currently experiencing, I was here for them all. You may also recall that Emirates and Qatar Airways were nothing like the competitors they are now back then. Etihad didn't even exist. Virgin were half the size. The Bermuda 2 treaty limited transatlantic competition at LHR. It's a different world now, and wishing it wasn't won't change it.

There is most certainly an agenda in the current climate, and that is to get the company fit to survive, not procrastinate and hope the problem will go away, because this time there's every likelihood it won't. Evolve or fail are the options facing us.

[T5 Mole]

Very mixed messages and i do not blame the unions for their lack of trust in any figures quoted at them by the company.Well go and employ Deloitte / KPMG to assess the figures for yourselves then.

Put it this way - Club is busy now only due to upgrades and discounted tickets. When Club was full at £5,000 per seat return to NY, the loss of revenue compared to today if 30 of those seats are no longer sold is £150,000 now that those bankers and lawyers are not flying. Let's say it is £50,000 down in reality if those seats are being sold at 2/3 the price instead.

£50,000 down on each return trip per day. Across the whole longhaul fleet of c.110 aircraft - £5,000,000 per day (I ignore route variations if you ignore shorthaul revenue losses due to the same situation).

£5m per day down = £1.8bn down for six months.

Added to which, there cargo revenues are down, volumes are down across the board, and robber Brown is after more APD.


So the fine was covered easily at the peak of the market...now all this cash has disappeared entirely.

As a worker myself,i would rather see less well rewarded employees aspire to achieve more themselves,rather than rejoice at the prospect of seeing other workers having their pay and conditions eroded.I thoroughly agree with you. Nobody is rejoicing. The piggy bank is empty.

[Poof in Boots]

I would like to know where the court case against Martin George and three senior managers in BA over Fuel Surcharge price Fixing is?

Thye were committed to trial earlier this year at Southwark. Why has the case been delayed?

[T5 Mole]

BA management have painted themselves into a corner by raising the bar so high, that even the merest concession by them will still leave a massive void. So any further ground given by BA mnagement will be seen as a climbdown and a loss of face by them.If BASSA had kept to the agreement not to disclose information that expired on 30 June, management may have been more willing to concede points. Instead, it is BASSA that has forced their hand into being more demanding.

How dim is that...?!

I would like to know where the court case against Martin George and three senior managers in BA over Fuel Surcharge price Fixing is?
What is the relevance? The fine is offset by the undue gains made in price fixing, though those are of indeterminate size.

[Poof in Boots]

Carnage. Nobody doubts British Airways will survive the current downturn, unless as Richard Branson commented, that Walsh: "talks BA into an early grave".

Our business model has suffered more than most being a full service airline. Our regular customers may cut back and fly with RyanAir for a while, but they miss the lounges and other atributes that BA provides.

Now we witness once more idiotic BA management trying to justify their positions by cutting product that will reduce the service to our customers like chocolates withdrawn in First and no hot towels in Club Europe. Some aircraft have run out ot fresh water in flight due to aircraft departing with less than full tanks to save weight.

More damage has been done to the prestige of British Airways by the activities of its CEO and senior managers. Even more damage will be done when they provoke a strike amongst 30,000 workers in BA, not just the cabin crew. It seems that some people forget here that there are other departments at loggerheads with Willie as well in BA.

Walsh may feel that three Christmasses have come at once using the recession to permanently drive down employee wages, but VIRGIN has shown that even with poverty pay it is not the salaries and T&C's that make or break an airline. It is management incompetence.

[bermudatriangle]

T5 mole,are you justifying illegal price fixing as long as the financial gains exceed the penalty?....a very dodgy policy indeed and one i would hope is never,ever followed by one of our leading UK companies.It is precicely that appaling management style that has so incensed employees at BA over many years.The company has always been let down by those at board level,through incompetence or in your price fixing analagy,illegality !Look at the BA/Virgin dirty tricks campaign,when BA contacted Virgin customers and poached their business,Bob Aylings disastrous debranding of the aircraft insignia with the multicoloured,multi-design tailfin logos and associated corporate merchandising and branding.

[JazzyKex]

The savings BA want from its cabin crew and groundstaff pale into insignificance with the huge ammounts the aforementioned events cost the airline.Reducing staff salaries will not save the airline or bancrupt it,however the ammounts involved are not insignificant.

BermudaTriangle.

Your quote sums up the nub of the problem...we know the savings will NOT cover the losses! This is not about covering losses...

BA need to borrow cash to get through the downturn as we hemorrhage money daily. As with any bank loan we need to show we can pay it back...eventually. Without showing permanent changes to our costs we will not be able to borrow enough to keep the cash reserves needed to stop out creditors wanting up front payment. There begins the downward spiral into bankruptcy!

It is up to BASSA to explain this to their members, I'm sure it has been explained in fine detail to them by BA. Most crew well able to understand the predicament, to think not insults the intelligence of most of the great crew I work with. It does however need to be dissected and explained and as such BASSA should dissect and explain which of their costs pay, productivity are valued at and ask their membership that IF it can be proven the BA are NOT lying what elements they are most willing to accede!

They have had months to have that grown up discussion with the company and their membership...it is a shame it has come to this entirely avoidable breakdown which now threatens their jobs, my job and the jobs of thousands of others. Not to mention the reputation of BA as we arrive in another summer the IA looming large.

Good luck to all...I hope a path of least pain can be arrived upon for all involved.

[Poof in Boots]

I think it is also worth mentioning the help that BA gets. It is widely known that although the Saudi routes were slow on the pick up, they are now quite busy. However 777 holds are full of cargo on these routes.

It is also helpful to BA that allegedly the Saudis are donating the fuel for the return flights.

[Carnage Matey!]

Nobody doubts British Airways will survive the current downturn, unless as Richard Branson commented, that Walsh: "talks BA into an early grave".


Do you think thats because people think we'll trundle on unchanged, or they think the Leadership Team will take strong action to cut costs permanently?

Our business model has suffered more than most being a full service airline. Our regular customers may cut back and fly with RyanAir for a while, but they miss the lounges and other atributes that BA provides.

Do you know who our regular customers are? Do you think they'll fly Ryanair? They don't. They just don't fly at all. And whilst their companies are on the ropes they won't be coming back.

Now we witness once more idiotic BA management trying to justify their positions by cutting product that will reduce the service to our customers like chocolates withdrawn in First and no hot towels in Club Europe. Some aircraft have run out ot fresh water in flight due to aircraft departing with less than full tanks to save weight.

Out of water? Really? Given there's been no reduction in the water loaded on aircraft I find this interesting. Can you tell me which, or which routes, because it seems nobody in Flight Ops knows anything about this.

More damage has been done to the prestige of British Airways by the activities of its CEO and senior managers. Even more damage will be done when they provoke a strike amongst 30,000 workers in BA, not just the cabin crew.

Nobody is anything like as far from a deal as BASSA. GSS even had a deal before Unite stuck their noses into it. The only people who'll even get to a strike ballot will be BASSA. And you won't get to a strike.

VIRGIN has shown that even with poverty pay it is not the salaries and T&C's that make or break an airline. It is management incompetence.

Or management competence, or the ability to be flexible and not downgrade passengers because you won't work two down, or strand people because you want two nights off after a diversion, or bump passengers because you want 18 hours off after a long day and need to position home etc etc. Or indeed having loaders who won't remove chocks or ground power. Or manning a single terminal with enough staff for two, even though everything is done by machine. And so on, and so forth.

[T5 Mole]

T5 mole,are you justifying illegal price fixing as long as the financial gains exceed the penalty?
Huh? What planet are you on? I stated that the fine handed down was in fact offset by the illegal gains made (hence the fine being handed down) - therefore there is no £300m "hole" in reality, as the gains were illegal in the first place...

BA World Cargo - read: http://aircargonews.net/PC-Interview.aspx

[Poof in Boots]

Carnage: Flights are leaving on sectors up to ten hours duration with 75% fresh water in the tanks. Didn't you know?

[Carnage Matey!]

Yes I did know. They've been leaving like that for about 4 years.

[MrBunker]

Head of IFCE trying to provide answers on the intranet but seems to be mostly being lambasted. I credit him for at least attempting to explain the thinking behind his proposal. I fear that most people are unwilling to listen.

[Andyismyname]

PIB

Yous stated "It is also helpful to BA that allegedly the Saudis are donating the fuel for the return flights"

I find that highly unlikely.

[Crash_and_Burn]

Or as usually happens, the militant few drown out the reasonable majority.

I love a bit of free speech..:ugh::ugh:

[Perry-oaks]

Thebaxfactor
The basic problem, it seems to me, is that the membership of BASSA are somewhat brighter than those who are in positions of power in the union.

Bassa is a democratic union and the members elect the reps to represent their views, so they get who they voted for!

To quote a different forum which I think sums it up nicely -

If you elect turnips, then turnip soup you shall eat. Vote for more intelligent people and avoid the soup. It's not difficult.

[wobble2plank]

As usual when no arguments to the contrary are available the usual suspects reply with the 'BASSA bashing' rhetoric. How surprising.

As has already been stated the gross profits pertaining to the 'fuel surcharge' and the 'cargo price fixing' scandals offsets the losses in fines. Whether the two cancel, lose or make profit is something that I feel BA will keep tightly closed. However the fact remains that they were covered in a time when the financial returns allowed them to be absorbed. Time goes on and the world continues to turn.

Oil prices stable? Where did this gem come from? Speculation alone has driven the price of petrol up to in excess of £1.05 a litre again. Fuel hedging could possibly take the edge of any fluctuation for a year or two but, without a viable alternative, the kerosene price will continue to rise. Add to that the prospect of interest rate rises, especially at the business level, and you have a dangerous cocktail for the future.

BA need to offer a stable, consistent product at a price that fits the current and future markets. Due to the overbearing, militant approach of BASSA we have become the summer laughing stock once again as yet another 'summer of discontent' hoves into view.

Even most of the CC have the good grace to feel embarrassed about the situation!

BA have in no way been backed into a corner by setting the bar too high. In fact what sort of statement is that in the first place? BA has expectations, plans and contingency plans. WW is a wily character and would not be playing this game if he wasn't certain of the outcome. The fact BASSA hates him is water off a ducks back to him. He just doesn't care.

The next few days will be very telling. I support our CC in the fullest terms, I do not however support BASSA's view or approach and I feel that many of our CC have been seriously let down by BASSA both now and in the past. Economies change and that change has to be taken into account. BASSA cannot comprehend this and thus takes it position shouting from its 1970's soap box.

If you want to know, as a snapshot, how many might be let down then take the 4000 who applied for VR under the given T's & C's but who may, now, face CR with far worse T's & C's.

Well done BASSA.

[MrBunker]

Some of the replies to the questions asked of the head if IFCE are quite illuminating. I'd say he's fighting his corner very well. £210 million figure touted by BASSA, purported as being utterly made up, a good explanation of certain savings. At least there's now some meat being added to what has, thus far, been a mildly hysterical discourse.

[Nutjob]

Glamgirl and HiFlyer14

I'll be crossing that picketline with you. You are far from alone. I believe we need to make savings and like many, I'd go for greater efficiency rather than lower pay. Sadly, the time to negotiate a solution on our terms seems to have passed. :ugh:

Still, I'd rather have a job on worse terms and conditions than no job at all. I fear many of my striking colleagues will end up with the latter. Good luck to you. :ouch:

The BASSA forum is vile at the moment. No input from reps at all and some really aggressive posts that are almost certainly bullying and harassment. We've even got idiots calling for a "Sickday on 30th" and "I tell you, I'll blow a slide the day I leave BA" and "I'll see BA go down before I accept these changes". Truly pathetic. Don't these idiots realise that their posts can become part of the evidence to be used against them. It's anonymous now but it sure won't be if things end up in court - ask BALPA re Openskies.

So no-one who wants a reasonable solution posts there, the only voices are those who want to strike and they believe their own hype. FWIW, not ONE of my friends will strike. Not one. They are all disgusted with BASSA. And the support back at Gatwick is almost non-existent. In fact, there's even an air of "they'll get what's been coming to them"

And the best posts on the BASSA forum? "I won't work for this kind of money"

Hmm, but it has been ok for Gatwick crew to work that hard and earn that much??? We reap what we sow. :(

[MrBunker]

Hi Nutjob,

My wife'll be crossing the picket line with you. Funnily enough she left BASSA because of the vitriol and militancy, a decision she, personally, has never regretted. Good on you for standing up and saying what you think, some people won't brook any dissent from the orthodoxy.

Secondly, and much more pertinent in the macro sense, posters on any forum should be acutely aware of the call a court can make on all communication and information in the event of a legally challenged dispute. All of BALPA's electronic comms were demanded by the opposing side and backed up by court instruction during the OS dispute. Truthfully, if you're anti the BA proposal (or indeed, the BASSA one for that matter), by all means express your displeasure but people should be aware that comments threatening criminal damage, being personally libellous, breaching contract of employment or whatever may well come back to haunt in a very real and meaningful way.

[wobble2plank]

Just to add to Mr Bunkers comments, when you log into any 'chat forum' be it Pprune, BASSA or Crew Forum the owners are required to log your IP address with each post you make.

Thus the nightmare scenario of being called forward for comments made on an 'anonymous' forum are all too real as the ISP's are required by law to relinquish the IP address holders account details to the police.

This info is not pointing at anyone just an addition to MrBunkers very good advice above.

Tread carefully!

[Da Dog]

PiB

BA management have painted themselves into a corner by raising the bar so high, that even the merest concession by them will still leave a massive void. So any further ground given by BA mnagement will be seen as a climbdown and a loss of face by them.


I don't think BA management care as long as they get the savings, I have predicted all along that BA will move some more and BASSA will be able to claim victory, lets hope I am right.

Figures shown to me last week show that if EFLHR were to adopt LGW style rostering(shorthaul matrix) then they would be 35-40% over crewed.

[MrBunker]

Head if IFCE stating that if BASSA's savings had added up to their claimed amount he'd have taken it. "Why wouldn't I?", to quote him. Surely now would be the time for both sides to put their proposals, with costings into the public domain and allow the affected parties to make informed, adult judgements about them? Headline figures equate to little more than willy waving and benefit about as much.

[Da Dog]

Virgin Atlantic Flirts With Jobs Cull - GLG News (http://www.glgroup.com/News/Virgin-Atlantic-Flirts-With-Jobs-Cull-41037.html)

Worth a read.

[Classic]

Yes I did know. They've been leaving like that for about 4 years.

I think it's more like 7 years actually.

[Perry-oaks]

From Sky News -

British Airways Suffers From Flight Of First And Business Class Passengers As Premium Traffic Dives | Business | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/British-Airways-Suffers-From-Flight-Of-First-And-Business-Class-Passengers-As-Premium-Traffic-Dives/Article/200907115328769?lpos=Business_First_Buisness_Article_Teaser_ Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15328769_British_Airways_Suffers_From_Flight_Of_ First_And_Business_Class_Passengers_As_Premium_Traffic_Dives )

Beleaguered carrier British Airways was hit by a 14.9% drop in first- and business-class passengers in June compared to the same month last year.
Overall the airline carried almost 5% fewer passengers last month than in June 2008, its latest figures revealed.

A total of 2.93 million people travelled on BA scheduled services in June 2009 - a 4.9% fall on the same month last year.

Passenger numbers in Europe fell 4.3%, but this decline was dwarfed by the 16.8% drop-off in Asia Pacific traffic.

But most alarming is the ongoing slump in premium traffic - a decline that contributed to a £401m loss for the last year.

BA said: "Market conditions continue to be very challenging with trading at levels well below last year.

"However on an underlying basis both premium and non-premium volumes and seat factors have now been stable for more than three months."

The airline cut the equivalent of 2,500 full-time positions between June 2008 and March this year, and is looking to cut 3,700 more in 2009/10.

It announced last month that 2,000 of those posts would be slashed from its cabin crew.

Earlier this week it called in conciliation group Acas to help it in pay negotiations with unions.

It is feared that BA staff will strike next month if a deal cannot be agreed.

Meanwhile, low-fare airline Ryanair announced today that it carried 5.84 million passengers in June 2009 - a 13% increase on its June 2008 total.

Ryanair planes flew 85% full last month compared with 84% full in June 2008.

[Classic]

From PiBNow we witness once more idiotic BA management trying to justify their positions by cutting product that will reduce the service to our customers like chocolates withdrawn in First and no hot towels in Club Europe. Some aircraft have run out ot fresh water in flight due to aircraft departing with less than full tanks to save weight.

More damage has been done to the prestige of British Airways by the activities of its CEO and senior managers.

Having read what's posted on Bassa and CF forums it seems that a huge part of Bassa's argument is that BA's management are incompetent. They have little to say on facts but repeatedly spout the fines, T5 and fuel hedging policy as examples of this lack of managerial competence.

PiB does the same above.

Yet what I cannot understand is what relevance this has to Bassa's negotiations on pay and working practices. Is the argument that the managers are so inept that they are not worth negotiating with? Or is the idea to point out these things so that shareholders will say "You know Bassa, you're absolutely right, we'll ditch the Board and the CEO right now"?

We, as employees, have no influence over who manages us, just as we have no influence over the make of aircraft the company buys, we have to work with what we have.

Constantly banging on about your opinions of Walsh himself doesn't serve your argument in any way. Please explain why it's relevant to your negotiations on pay and conditions.

[wobble2plank]

May as well let BASSA run the company!

Oh, sorry they think they do already anyway! :ugh:

Apparently, due to the drastic mismanagement of the company the Cabin Crew shouldn't need to change with the times. Everybody else should. The reason, oh yes, .... the reason ..... umm can't find one, it's just because BASSA says so.

Wonderful.

Quiet summer again then, that'll help.

[Hotel Mode]

Quiet summer again then, that'll help.

Eurofleet Cabin Crew are already being called out to operate 767 long haul flights this weekend. Is Wimbledon on?

[Classic]

Carnage: Flights are leaving on sectors up to ten hours duration with 75% fresh water in the tanks. Didn't you know?

Didn't you know PiB?
If you consider it a problem, just pop up to see the pilots and ask if more water can be loaded for that sector. It's rarely a problem as long as there are no weight/performance issues.

See? A problem shared is a problem solved. :ok:

Now go and pop that back on the Bassa forum - if you dare!

[747-436]

Virgin Atlantic Flirts With Jobs Cull - GLG News

Worth a read.

Similar article to the one about Virgin, this time about BA, some very interesting points in there.

Another Summer Of Discontent At British Airways? - GLG News (http://www.glgroup.com/News/Another-Summer-Of-Discontent-At-British-Airways--41039.html)

[nuigini]

Crew have been going sick en masse and most 767 trips on the WW network will be crewed by EF crew.

[Carnage Matey!]

So it's sunny and Wimbledon finals weekend and the crew are going sick. Thus it ever was.

[nuigini]

It's also Gay Pride this weekend!

[overstress]

And Henley Regatta up to the 5th. BASSA meeting on the 6th :ok: get the important stuff out of the way first!

At least BA's dive in premium numbers is way less than VS's :ooh:

[Da Dog]

This last paragraph is telling.

Given the relative “lack of teeth” that ACAS actually has, if British Airways walks away from talks, staff will seethe at their union leaders for not getting a better deal – of course, the truth is that these union leaders don’t always represent the wishes of those they claim to be standing up for and will only have themselves to blame when mutiny hits home as British Airways runs out of money to pay for their whimsical demands.

[Adi54321]

Speaking with Virgin staff today, they were telling me that they are on course to match BA's loss of 400 million this year. I'm sure the wooly pully will massgae and hide the figures cometh the time to look better than BA. I haven't heard any of them say that geting rid of their top managers will solve the economic crisis though !

[TorC]

From my friends on the ground in T5, T4 and T3:

The A-Scale Union Reps are expecting to be at ACAS this coming Wednesday, and appear confident of a positive outcome for both sides. This from people who already underwent huge changes with the move to T5.

Meanwhile, bassa buys a new hat and goes to the races .....

[HiFlyer14]

Hi Nutjob and Mr Bunker's wife:)

Welcome and thankyou for being so bold as to say you will cross with us. Do you think we need a slogan - what about
Proud to work for BA - Proud to cross the Picket Line?:cool:

Nutjob you are so right - there are many, many more like us but as has already been said, it is SOOOO difficult, nay impossible, to make your voice heard above the militant chants. Not because the militants present any real argument or debate, but purely because they resort to name calling and threats of physical abuse. The BASSA and CrewForum websites and even now are own ESS site are truly frightening places. Arthur Scargill would be proud!:ugh:

The many thousands of us that do not agree with the childish and bullying tactics, are simply lying low and waiting for the chance to cast our vote.:ok:

They are claiming on the Bully Forums that WW has somehow lost the plot and doesn't know what he is doing!:= However, here are just some of the hypocrisies of the BASSA hierarchy:

Proposed Temporary Solutions Only --- then offered permanent ones:confused:

Proposed "Say No to Mixed Fleet" --- then offered 767 to SH for...mixed flying:confused:

Slated Pilots Offer --- then offered the exact same for Cabin Crew:confused:


The list goes on....

There is only one side in all of this that is behaving like a headless chicken.....and it ain't WW.;)

[PC767]

Questions to BA cabin crew on this thread.

Are you happy and prepared to accept the BA proposals in their entirety?

Have BA provided you with all the information you require on the financial impact of the changes to your salary?

Is your decision truely informed?

[MrBunker]

Similarly has BASSA provided a cost breakdown to prove their claimed savings? Perhaps if both sides submitted their proposal and breakdown to an independent auditor then there could be no partisanship in play and crew can make up their own minds.

[TorC]

PC767

Coming at your questions as one who accepts that change is needed:


Are you happy and prepared to accept the BA proposals in their entirety?


I am happier overall with the BA proposals than with those put forward by the unions.

I am prepared to accept more of the BA proposals than I would those put forward by the unions.


Have BA provided you with all the information you require on the financial impact of the changes to your salary?



Not yet. Neither have the unions. What BA has done though, is to communicate with me in a calm, collected and respectful manner, offer explanations, asked my opinion as an individual, and remain open to questioning.

Is your decision truely informed?

I went through the last little spat very uninformed, or illinformed even. Not this time round. Postings here, and on other forums (some seen by myself, others only reported to me) suggest that a large number of CC are where I was the last time.

[7371000]

I Think, Therefore You Are:d

[7371000]

Don't think there is any malingering here; boy, is it hot!
The other day I had to deliberately walk under the
shade across O'Henry street in downtown Dublin.:{

[Perry-oaks]

PC767

Questions to BA cabin crew on this thread.

Are you happy and prepared to accept the BA proposals in their entirety?

Have BA provided you with all the information you require on the financial impact of the changes to your salary?

Is your decision truely informed?

Where do you stand on these questions?

[HiFlyer14]

PC767


Are you happy and prepared to accept the BA proposals in their entirety?



There is certainly room for negotiation, as I have already stated. However, as they stand the proposals are not the death warrant that CC are making out and IF push comes to shove, I will accept in their entirety.


Have BA provided you with all the information you require on the financial impact of the changes to your salary?


The only financial impact on my salary arises from the proposed Fixed Monthly Duty Payment. The amount of this has to be agreed between BA and Unite, therefore BA do not yet have all the information. Additionally, it was stated clearly yesterday on the live chat that this is still an option and BA are happy to leave the status quo on this. So, yes, I have all the information that is available at the moment.

Is your decision truely informed?

Yes I believe it is. If you feel I have overlooked something then please say. I certainly believe it is far more informed than the theory that "BA just want to smash the Unions" which is nothing more than BASSA rhetoric to wind up the members to achieve their own agenda.

Your turn now...same questions;)

[plodding along]

Are you happy and prepared to accept the BA proposals in their entirety?



Of course no one will be happy! Why would anyone be happy to cut back on anything?
You think the pilots are "happy" to take a pay cut and work harder? of course not.

The thing is that many cabin crew just "don't get it", the fact that the savings MUST be made and are NON NEGOTIABLE that is.

Six months ago pilots thought it was rubbish, everything is "negotiable" after all, it took a long detailed review by BALPA before they realised that the savings were indeed required and the figure was indeed "non negotiable".
Thereafter BALPA spent 3 months working out how best to make those savings.

Cabin crew all voted no to ANY savings, at least BASSA now realises that savings must be made hence their own "£173million" proposal.
Touble is it's no good because of all the wasted months.

Please tell me why many crew are still yet to grasp the concept of recession/financial difficulty/need for cuts even at this stage?
Is it lack of intelligence or stubborness?

A lot of us just don't get why you don't get it.

Edited..... just reading the last few posts it would seem a lot of crew do "get it" I guess some do and some don't, just which is the majority?

[Perry-oaks]

plodding along
Please tell me why many crew are still yet to grasp the concept of recession/financial difficulty/need for cuts even at this stage?
Is it lack of intelligence or stubborness or the result of being spoilt for years.


I think that's a little unfair - I know if BALPA were telling us the savings are not required and BA are being opportunist - we would believe them, after all this was our view a few months back.

Bassa has failed its members by not reviewing the companys accounts and to use PC767's words is not truely informed.

[nuigini]

Proposed "Say No to Mixed Fleet" --- then offered 767 to SH for...mixed flying

The difference is this proposal comes from BASSA and would be under their premises. Obviously that makes it doable.

[plodding along]

I think that's a little unfair


It was, sorry. It's just so frustrating to see so many people angry at the company and management when we should all be pulling together to get out of this mess.

Yes there were fines, yes there was a T5 mess up, (could also bring up terminal staff strike, groung staff walk out in sympathy with gate gormet and a two day shut down by cabin crew) but it's all in the past. We can't go back and undo it.

The costs of this company exceed the revenue it receives, simple as that.

[Perry-oaks]

whats good for the goose, is good for the gander!!!. Come on BILL I'll have the same as our flight deck. Good for CRM

My contract has been constantly changing or evolving for the last 10 years - so you guys will have to play catchup first.

And you can't cherry pick the good bits - Hourly pay - Force Draft or Draft Assign whatever it's called - only 2 days MBT's between any trip - it is expected that you will go above and beyond your industrial limits if needed or you will have to justify yourself if you don't! etc. etc.

[TightSlot]

Thread is about Cabin Crew wages & T's &C's - Pilot agreements may be of interest, but are irrelevant to this thread.

[320 driver]

Tightslot

I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree.

BASSA use BALPA agreements and conditions as leverage and some CC use parts of the pilot agreement as an aspirational benchmark, so they are pertinent to the debate on BA CC pay and conditions.

(edited for grammar)

[Nutjob]

Are you happy and prepared to accept the BA proposals in their entirety?

No, which is why I would have liked my union to act responsibly and broker a deal that suited the desires of it's membership better. Have I been asked whether I'd rather sacrifice pay or work harder? No, not a thing. Just rants against WW, sour grapes vs the pilots and almost no facts. A miserable performance imho.

Have BA provided you with all the information you require on the financial impact of the changes to your salary?

No - aren't my union meant to go over those details with a fine tooth comb? Aren't many of these financial details quite confidential and only for the eyes of a few trusted individuals - i.e our reps?

Is your decision truely informed?

Well, I believe my decision is FAR better informed than that of those that swallow the childish BASSA line. What annoys me is that if BASSA actually accepted the need for some change and negotiated it on their terms, then we'd all be better off. As it is, I can only see us taking a huge beating, with Unite selling us out again. At least I have listened to the views of others, considered them all and made an informed decision. I'm comfortable that I've done the best I can.

And all of that means that while I accept the need for some change but not for all of BA's demands, I fear I will have no choice but to accept what BA eventually impose. I don't think that will be too pleasant.

[sunnysmith]

What I am really struggling to understand is why are Bassa and for that matter some crew (I’m guessing the militant) so obsessed with the pilots T’s and C’s.

whats good for the goose, is good for the gander!!!. Come on BILL I'll have the same as our flight deck. Good for CRM

Surely that just doesn’t apply, and neither does fairness IMHO. Our two groups do two very different jobs with very different responsibilities. On top of that there is a more readily available supply of CC compared to pilots. Compare that principle with why diamonds are expensive. Not every stone can be a diamond.

I’m sorry to have to say (please take this in the spirit in which it is intended – ie not a dig or a rant) that to try and compare pilots and cabin crew pay in this way is plain naïve. We earn more and have (debateable bit now) better T’s and C’s because that’s the whole point of striving to better oneself and move up the social and economic ladder.

By applying Bassa’s logic: Macdonalds staff do the same job as CC (it’s just an illustration NOT my opinion!!) so they should enjoy the same perks and pay. Lets put it another way: Why does the CSD get better pay, room upgrades, different staff travel etc then main crew? Because they have moved up the social and responsibility ladder and are thus rewarded for their hard work.

Why do some CC begrudge pilots? I guess to be honest an element of jealousy creeps in. Who hasn’t looked at say footballers in the UK and thought ‘that’s not fair?’. It’s not fair but that is how the world works. If we all, and that’s everyone from cleaners to people with immense responsibility like surgeons (or pilots :)) got that same T’s and C’s, pay and even perks then what is the point of working hard?

So can any of you militant CC or Bassa reps really justify comparing our respective packages? Really?

In much the same way that people equate CSDs (and I have some very good CSD, purser and main crew friends by the way!) and FOs. How can you really justify it?

I sincerely hope this POV is not taken as a rant. Like I said at the start, I just don’t get why some think our jobs, responsibilities etc are in anyway comparable!:confused:

SS

[flapsforty]

Sunny, your point was raised, argued, re-raised, re-argued and so on a few more times in the previous thread on this subject.
Come to that, it has been discussed on this and other PPRuNe forums more times than I care to remember. :bored:

Summarizing what I have come across over the past 10 years on PPRuNe, here are the reasons for the difference in pay:

Pilots train for longer than cabin crew
Pilot training is more expensive than cabin crew training
The skill/talent set required to become a pilot is less widely found in the general population than the skill/talent set needed to become a flight attendant
Piloting is a male dominated job, FA-ing is a female dominated job. Male jobs get paid better than female jobs. UK Gender pay gap currently at 20%.
(http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSTRE53Q1VF20090427)

Pilot pay is irrelevant to this thread. As stated by TightSlot above.
In the previous thread, many (supposed) pilots have brought up the deal made by BALPA as an example of what BASSA should have done.
Hence perhaps the continued comparisons between the two groups.

[Litebulbs]

Flaps,

What, a 3% pay cut, for shares in 3 years time? I'm sure they would vote yes for that.

[Carnage Matey!]

I'm sure if they changed their work agreements to match the efficiencies of the pilots BA would be more than happy to offer it.

[TopBunk]

As has been said in another place - allegedly

It's easy [for cabin crew] to hate pilots, it touches a collective raw nerve about being inadequate and inferior. At the moment BASSA hate everyone; BA, BALPA and even Unite. They're a cornered wild animal.

I'm sure that while it applies to some, it doesn't to many.

[Nutjob]

Litebulbs

Flaps,

What, a 3% pay cut, for shares in 3 years time? I'm sure they would vote yes for that.

And here is where many of us and our union are just being childish.

I obtained a copy of and read the pilots' agreement thoroughly. The figures may be slightly inaccurate as the cuts were made across basic pay and allowances but generally amounted to a pay cut of about 4.4%. They took a 20% cut in part of their allowances and I reckon that probably equates to 10%-15% cut in total allowances - depending on the type of work rostered. The share options are optional and dependent on some quite substantial profits in the coming years. Share options and employee interest in their company are widely encouraged in good business models such as John Lewis.

The pilots also agreed to work harder with increases in yearly flying hours.

So, BASSA are winding us all up and comparing BA's wishlist (which genuine negotiation would have diluted) to the best bits of the pilots deal. It achieves nothing and we'll just end up with imposition. I'm sick of them!

I cannot believe that WW has no trick up his sleeve in dealing with our militant members. I predict another pasting and I'll be far worse off because of it.

[320 driver]

Nutjob

You do yourself and your fellow crew great credit with your rational outlook and realistic view of the world.

My wife is CC and so this will affect my family significantly.

She is fed up with BASSA being run by 1970s militants who know only how to shout and rant when they should be working to get a reasonable deal for their members.

Next election, get yourself in there Nutjob and do your mates a favour!

[plodding along]

Ok, please for the last time, lets put the shares deal to bed.
Pilots do not get their paycut back in shares in 5 years time.

The pay cut (basic and allowances) will amount to about £5000p.a. average per pilot. Over 5 years thats £25,000. (Big ouch :{)

IF we made a 6% operating margin in 5 years time (pretty unlikely) then a Captain would be awarded 807 shares. At £1.25 thats £1008 worth.

A 10% operating margin would give the max of 1346 shares (£1680).
Now here's the big thing that BASSA won't have told you:

It's in return for a no industrial action clause and extra "management duties/structure" of which are yet to be decided on.

The other big thing is that in recognition of a first officers reduced responsibilities compared to a captain his max entitlement is lower at 1015 shares.

So allowing for the reduced responsibilities of CSD's, then Pursers, then main crew you'd probably be down to a couple of hundred shares each.

Hardly worth your extra "management" duties and responsibilities really.

Please see your nearest BASSA rep for the full BALPA deal and I'm sure they'll be happy to explain it all. :)

Now if this doesn't get deleted can we drop the share deal bit please.

[londonmet]

flapsforty

Summarizing what I have come across over the past 10 years on PPRuNe, here are the reasons for the difference in pay:
Pilots train for longer than cabin crew
Pilot training is more expensive than cabin crew training
The skill/talent set required to become a pilot is less widely found in the general population than the skill/talent set needed to become a flight attendant
Piloting is a male dominated job, FA-ing is a female dominated job. Male jobs get paid better than female jobs. UK Gender pay gap currently at 20%.


Not to mention the command structure on board an aircraft having anything to do with the level of salary paid. Captain in charge, first officer second in charge, pursar etc etc.

I have the same debate going on in my airline with regards to pilot pay vs CC pay. I think it is relevant here if BASSA are using pilot pay as a benchmark so to speak. You can't compare the jobs and therefore have CSD's/Pursars being paid more than the F/O. Rank speaking it's not the CSD's cabin its the Captains then F/O's. Lets get some perspective on rank.

Good luck,

L Met

[flapsforty]

londonmet, to me the chain of command, hierarchy, respective rank etc is such an instinctive and integral part of airline life that I didn´t think to include it.

You are of course correct about its relevance. :ok:


PS: It´s called a pursEr, not pursAr.

[londonmet]

Flapsforty,

Thank you for your reply. You'll be amazed how many CC think they should get the same ££ to work off as I do. I simply explain that each of our days off are equally as valuable (non-financially). However, financially speaking a day off working payment is directly linked to ones salary. Unfortunately the arguement doesn't end there. Anyway, back to this thread subject. I hope BA CC pull their heads out of their rear ends and wake up and smell the coffee for the good of the airline and the greater good of the aviation industry.

L Met

[Tiger]

I think both sides are as bad as each other to be honest. BASSA and BA. BA started this off with a sheet of A4 left on a photocopier (allegedly) and all hell breaks out.

PR side of things with BA and WW with working for free becomes a fast growing joke, and as BA trumpets how xyz number are working for free, EF cabin crew are offered overtime!

The goal posts keep moving and to be honest not sure what to think as I`m not overly keen on BASSA`s idea for EF doing some WW flights. Then again BA`s solutions is slightly more palatable but the flexible roster and 9 days off not great. Hopefully a combination of the 2 will come about with ACAS. The problem is different contracts.. bidders will loose a day off but 6 and 3 work pattern don`t. Most new contract types are bidders.
BA hasn`t given any figures and so how do you make any decision is impossible.
I`m not sure a strike will help anything to be honest, and is it not possible to be taken back on after striking on the new contract type?

One thing, and you do have to laugh, BA has managed to unite the 2 cabin crew unions at last and there is very little bitterness between the two.

I`m not sure why so many cabin crew are keen on the pilots deal. Shares? erm they go up and they go down, and sometimes you can loose all of them. Like my 500 free Bradford Bingley ones. Worthless.

The bigger issue is the pension with it being billions in deficit; wonder if those shares are sweetners just incase the final salary pension is closed to those already in it?

BASSA is hard faced and bullish and has had to be at times. Whether they are right or wrong time will tell. Of course a few pilots and possibly others in the company do know how to pull the strings on cabin crew and BASSA and sometimes that doesn`t help; although you do get a reaction and possibly some kick from it.

[Hotel Mode]

EF cabin crew are offered overtime!


Well theres only 1 reason BA have offered EF overtime and thats to keep the operation running during the annual worldwide Wimbledon/Henley/Pride mass sick out. There have been several cancellations as a result anyway.

[Hotel Mode]

Just when i thought that the idiocy of these people must have limits they show it doesn't.

Note to BASSA. HKG was 3 747s its now 2 747s and a 777, thats a cut. And whichever route decisions BA make they'll still be significantly less aircraft in the fleet this winter than last. (8 747s, 8 757s, couple of 767s offset by 2 new 318s and 4 777s). Some cursory attempt at research may bear dividends.

GLOBAL RECESSION OR (MR WALSHS) GLOBAL EXPANSION?
Jul 5th, 2009 by admin

You will not have missed all the media and press furore surrounding awful times that the aviation industry is experiencing. This sentiment is being led mainly by our own CEO, Willy Walsh, who seems to be doing his level best to talk our airline out of existence as soon as possible.

He has gone on record many times over the last few weeks, reporting the dire state that BA is in, with profits plummeting, empty aircraft and the need for staff to accept ever harsher cuts.

He even went as far as to say that the industry wont recover until 2017 when every other analyst has stated that the recession has already bottomed out and the signs of a slow recovery are beginning to show.

To add weight to this mood of doom and gloom, Mr. Broughton, our chairman, was recently interviewed by Sky News and continued with the line that we are experiencing extremely difficult trading conditions and any recovery is likely to take longer than initially envisaged." However, on ESS today it was also reported that the winter schedule is to actually also be increased as a response to customer demand - we will increase the number of flights from Heathrow to Warsaw and Istanbul from two to three flights a day.

On Worldwide we have recently be told that a new route to Las Vegas is starting in a few months, daily! This is as well as the HKG capacity being increased by adding an additional 777. BA will also increase the number of flights from Heathrow to Rome from five to six a day.

Mr. Walsh said this is the worst trading climate that BA has ever experienced, worse than 911 or the Gulf War. Yet we are still going ahead with the new route to JFK from City Airport?

Only last week, extra flights were also announced, which included additional services from Gatwick to Bermuda (from five to six a week), Barbados (from nine to ten a week) and St Lucia and Port of Spain (from three to five a week), plus flights from Heathrow to Barcelona increasing from five to seven a day and Prague from three to four a day.

Its difficult to judge which of his approaches is the more truthful but what is obvious is that he has got it woefully wrong in talking down our airline to anyone who would listen, solely to create the right atmosphere to push through draconian cuts upon his own staff.

As a CEO he appears oblivious and has seemingly scant regard to the disastrous impact that his statements have had on our advance bookings, as people lose confidence in British Airways. Never mind the fact that the disastrous fuel price fixing, resulting heavy fines and poorly judged fuel price hedging all happened on his watch.

We at the bottom are now being asked to pick up the tab for the mistakes of those at the top.

These errors of judgment alone would make the current round of employees cost cuts unnecessary.

If he were a football manager, he would have been sacked long ago. Its akin to taking Manchester United into non-league football and then attempting to blame the pitch, weather, groundsman, team coach driver, tea ladies and/or the fans.

Read the tabloid sports pages Mr. Walsh and see where the blame normally resides when a team is not doing well...

...The Manager.

[Lord Bracken]

That post is highly selective in its information, ignoring the winter cuts at LGW (BCN removed completely which would account for the additional LHR frequencies) and capacity reduction on, for example, JFK which is seeing many more 777s than 747s (it used to be exclusively 747s).

It also doesn't take into account "dynamic revenue management" which is desperately trying to maintain load factor at the expense of yield (which has fallen off a cliff), meaning that status passengers spending £350 on a Y seat LHR-JFK-LHR end up in Club for one sector and Traveller Plus for the other.

Just like me last week.

[peterlondon]

From the forum FAQ:
# Make sufficient use of punctuation & grammar to be readable.

The Mods

[MrBunker]

Not to mention a number of HKG flights being tactically cancelled, NRT down to one a day etc etc. It's times like this I wish BA would put out some useful counter information.

[sunnysmith]

when every other analyst has stated that the recession has already bottomed out and the signs of a slow recovery are beginning to show.

Hmmm, from what I have been reading MOST analysts (as opposed to every other:)) agree that this recession will be W shaped. They think we are nearing the bottom of the first trough, however after a brief period of stability (very little recovery as I understand!) the second trough will be more severe and sustained.

I suggest that Bassa (or their members if bassa is not prepared to do it) stop reading the tabloids and move on to better quality publications :ugh:

SS

[PC767]

On this issue of pay between pilots and cabin crew.

I understand that there are some cabin crew who do receive better pay than some pilots.

However, the situation is that a senior very senior cabin crew member may be paid more than a very junior first officer. A senior cabin crew member towards the end of their service on their top increment versus a junior first officer, starting their career and with a far higher future earning potential than any cabin crew will and would ever have.

[screwdriver]

Forgive me for butting in. I'm not CC but I am a BA employee of 35 years. Of course not being CC doesn't seem to stop anyone else from piling in with their views on the subject..so here goes. How I see things...

The comany is screwed. It wasn't BASSA's fault but, none the less, that is where it finds itself.

I can't blame your union for trying to protect your T&Cs but , come on, this is way overdue.

I have never in my 35 years felt as insecure as I do now and that has nothing to do with the 'company ' or WW's approach . The world has changed!

My department have been engaging in the BRS to try and lower our costs to preserve jobs.

I can't see how the CC can use any comparison with the pilots just because they 'work' in the same 'space'. Why the constant comparison?. They should be compared with other staff groups within the airline.

From what I know it would appear that the pilots used a mature approach to their negotiations with the company. This approach is sadly lacking with BASSA!

Senior CC have long enjoyed a 'ringfencing' of their terms and conditions. Way above the market rate. T & Cs that every other dept in BA has seen adjusted over the last number of years.

Some BA groundstaff are working their t£ts off at present due to staff reductions.

I would expect BASSA (busted flush) to be sidelined as BA talk to Unite national officials with ACAS present.

But then again, what do I know, I'm just one of the 27000 staff who aren't CC/FD.

Could have gone on but I'm up for work in the morning and the wine bottle's empty!! (Non crew purchase):zzz:

[oki]

On this issue of pay between pilots and cabin crew.

Hospital porters and consultants work in the same building. They are not paid the same.

[wobble2plank]

The never ending Pilots verses CC pay thread!

Wrong place for it. BASSA will ALWAYS play the comparison as it takes the heat off of their innate ability to mess up negotiations by whinging that CC deserve exactly what the Pilots get.

There are threads all over the internet covering it.

More to the point isn't today 'The big one' at Kempton Park.

It will be amazing to see, what with Henley, Wimbledon and Gay Pride, how many the 'amazing' turnout will be and, of course, they will vote for no confidence in WW and the threat of IA to get their 'alternate cost savings' through.

:ugh:

[wobble2plank]

Having just read through BASSA's latest war info memo it seems to be a little thin on the ground where 'facts' are concerned.

You will not have missed all the media and press furore surrounding awful times that the aviation industry is experiencing. This sentiment is being led mainly by our own CEO, Willy Walsh, who seems to be doing his level best to talk our airline out of existence as soon as possible.

A few of the AOC holders who have already been bitten by the downturn might disagree that WW is the devil incarnate in this one and that BA is 'merely' talking down the industry:


Defunct AOC holders airlines 2008-2009
2009

Date Airline Info
Jan 04 Ted Merged into United Airlines
Jan 09 Rak Airways Suspended all flights
Jan 10 Zambian Suspended all flights
Jan 15 Air Taboma Suspended all flights
Jan 17 FlyIAL Suspended all flights
Jan 29 Macair Suspended all flights
Mar 13 Sky Airworld Suspended all flights
Mar 15 East Star Suspended all flights
Mar 26 Central Wings Suspended all flights
Mar 31 Blue Wings Suspended all flights
Apr 01 Kayala Suspended all flights
Apr 04 L'Avion Merged into Open Skies
Apr 24 Air Senegal International Suspended all flights
Apr 27 Air Fiji Suspended all flights
May 01 First Choice Became Thomson Airways
May 01 Thomson Fly Became Thomson Airways
Jul 01 Cargo B Suspended all flights

Virgin Nigeria Name change expected
Atlas Blue Royal Air Maroc may discontinue the brand
VLM To be merged with Cityjet in January 2010
Clickair To be merged with Vueling in mid Jul 2009


2008

Date Airline Info
Jan 01 Alpieagles Suspended all flights
Jan 06 Aero Airlines Suspended all flights
Jan 08 BritishJet Suspended all flights
Jan 23 Coast Air Suspended all flights
Jan 30 City Star Suspended all flights
Feb 29 Boston Maine Suspended all flights
Mar 01 Focus Air Suspended all flights
Mar 08 Bigsky Suspended all flights
Mar 13 Girjet Suspended all flights
Mar 18 Adamair Suspended all flights
Mar 25 ASA Suspended all flights
Mar 29 GB Airways Merged into Easyjet
Mar 30 Freedom Air Suspended all flights
Mar 30 Airclass Airways Suspended all flights
Mar 31 Aloha Suspended all flights
Mar 31 JAA Merged into JAL
Apr 02 ATA Suspended all flights
Apr 04 Skybus Suspended all flights
Apr 05 FlyNordic Merged into Norwegian
Apr 05 Skyway Airlines Suspended all flights
Apr 07 Swazi Express Suspended all flights
Apr 09 Oasis HKG Suspended all flights
Apr 25 Ocean Airlines Suspended all flights
Apr 27 EOS Suspended all flights
Apr 29 Nationwide Suspended all flights
May 03 Mihin Lanka Suspended all flights
May 08 Angkor Suspended all flights
May 08 EuroManx Suspended all flights
May 09 My Travel Denmark Became Thomas Cook Scandinavia
May 13 Far Eastern AT Suspended all flights
May 23 Club Air Suspended all flights
May 23 Pacific Airlines Became Jetstar Pacific
May 30 Silver Jet Suspended all flights
May 31 Champion Air Suspended all flights
Jun 10 MagniCharters Suspended all flights
Jun 11 Aero Condor Suspended all flights
Jun 30 AM Suspended all flights
Jul 16 Flyyeti Suspended all flights
Jul 21 Ankair Suspended all flights
Jul 21 One-two-go Suspended all flights
Jul 23 Aero California Suspended all flights
Jul 25 LAB Suspended all flights
Jul 29 Riau Airlines Suspended all flights
Aug 01 Community Airlines Suspended all flights
Aug 05 Avolar Suspended all flights
Aug 05 Novaair Suspended all flights
Aug 12 Gemini Air Cargo Suspended all flights
Aug 23 Airlines Tonga Suspended all flights
Aug 28 Zoom Airlines Suspended all flights
Aug 29 Deccan Merged into Kingfisher
Sep 08 Futura Suspended all flights
Sep 08 Futura gael Suspended all flights
Sep 11 Air Bee Suspended all flights
Sep 12 XL Airways UK Suspended all flights
Sep 15 AeBAl Suspended all flights
Sep 22 AAAbaBna Suspended all flights
Sep 25 Lat Charter Became Smartlynx
Sep 30 Asian Spirit Became Zest Air
Sep 30 Carib Aviation Suspended all flights
Oct 01 Kyokushin Air Suspended all flights
Oct 03 Aero Tropics Suspended all flights
Oct 05 Galaxy Airlines Suspended all flights
Oct 09 Lagunair Suspended all flights
Oct 13 CargoItalia Suspended all flights
Oct 17 Omskavi Airlines Suspended all flights
Oct 17 Nhtepabna Suspended all flights
Oct 17 Tesis Suspended all flights
Oct 17 VBG Suspended all flights
Oct 17 Lte Suspended all flights
Oct 18 Hansung Airlines Suspended all flights
Oct 20 Flysur Suspended all flights
Oct 21 Aladia Suspended all flights
Oct 29 Sterling Denmark Suspended all flights
Nov 01 Domodevdovo Suspended all flights
Nov 01 Kras Air Suspended all flights
Nov 07 Alma de Mexico Suspended all flights
Nov 18 Inter Airlines Suspended all flights
Dec 01 Siem Reap Airlines Suspended all flights
Dec 01 European Suspending all flights
Dec 01 Primaris Airlines Suspended all flights
Dec 03 Flightline Suspended all flights
Dec 06 OKAIR Suspended all flights
Dec 11 Yeongnam Air Suspended all flights
Dec 14 Air Tanzania Suspended all flights
Dec 17 Air Europe Suspended all flights

Many are smaller carriers however many aren't and I would be fairly certain that the employers and employees are certainly feeling the pain of Willy Walshs' made up down turn at the moment.

He even went as far as to say that the industry wont recover until 2017 when every other analyst has stated that the recession has already bottomed out and the signs of a slow recovery are beginning to show.

Erm, every other analyst? There seems to be discord amongst the city analysts as to whether we are in a 'U' recession where we bump along the bottom for a bit before climbing out of the other side, a 'W' recession (seems to be the favourite at the moment) where we see a small pick up but then worsens before bettering. Or, the worst scenario as Japan has seen for the last 10 years, an 'L' recession where confidence and stock market levels never recover or recover of an extremely protracted period.

Its difficult to judge which of his approaches is the more truthful but what is obvious is that he has got it woefully wrong in talking down our airline to anyone who would listen, solely to create the right atmosphere to push through draconian cuts upon his own staff.

See the list above. Companies that fail to innovate, stagnate and die. The 'rejig' of the route structures and the implementation of new routes and the culling of non profitable routes is exactly what the company has to and must do. The 'overall' restructure will result in a capacity cut. Pure and simple. All the company is doing is moving profitable capacity towards profitable routes. Add to that the fuel usage, capacity and cost per passenger mile of different aircraft types and you can assess correctly the company plan. If they weren't innovating then I would be worried. For example Virgin doesn't have the luxury of a large network and, after his PR stunt of a profit was unearthed as the scam it was, VA are hurting big time.

If he were a football manager, he would have been sacked long ago. Its akin to taking Manchester United into non-league football and then attempting to blame the pitch, weather, groundsman, team coach driver, tea ladies and/or the fans.

Read the tabloid sports pages Mr. Walsh and see where the blame normally resides when a team is not doing well...


OK lets pull the world of the international airline down to the level of the Sun reading masses shall we? Surely the BASSA membership deserve a far better analogy than that? Especially as the one above makes no sense whatsoever. Ironically the players, groundsmen, team coach or the tea ladies would have no wages or job of the fans don't have the money to come through the gate or buy the tickets no matter how good the team.


BASSA, give your membership HARD facts not made up innuendo, don't treat them as the drones you have been treating them for the past 20 years. They, the membership, deserve better.

[teddybear44]

Screwdriver,

Nice one :D

[Nutjob]

I'm not prepared to post the facts on the BASSA forum because I believe it will just end up in a witch hunt. I've made my thoughts clear on the aggressive posts of many crew there.

HOWEVER..........if any other CC do read PPRune, then you might like to hear a qualification on the thread re "If you strike you can be sacked". There are many saying that if it's a legal strike you can't be sacked.

Truth: If it's a LEGAL strike you can't LEGALLY be sacked. So you could still be dismissed and you would have to claim for unfair dismissal. The maximum payout would then be £77,600 and you're not guaranteed to get you job back. Disclaw Publishing - Employment Law, unfair dismissal, redundancy pay (http://emplaw.co.uk/researchfree-redirector.aspx?StartPage=data%2f00jan06.htm&PageTitle=Compensation%20%2F%20statutory%20limits)

Once again, that's why I'll cross that picket line. I agree with the need to become more efficient, I'm hacked off with BASSA and I certainly am not risking my job. Rather a lower paid job than no job.

Ta ta for now.

[MrBunker]

My heart is in my mouth at the frightening prospect of another video clip of cheering whooping crew calling for a strike in the next few hours. I feel so bad for those that don't wish to be led in such a manner by their reps.

[Tiger]

It will be amazing to see, what with Henley, Wimbledon and Gay Pride, how many the 'amazing' turnout will be and, of course, they will vote for no confidence in WW and the threat of IA to get their 'alternate cost savings' through.


Henley is over and Gay Pride is only a day..

[wobble2plank]

T'was tongue in cheek, as we seemed to have a shortage of CC over those days I was wondering why BASSA chose the 6th.

:ok:

[TorC]

I can only hope that enough "moderates" will attend the bassa meet to sway the vote away from a ballot for IA. (Well, we can all have our dreams can't we?).

The damage that will be done if today does result in a ballot for IA is the very last thing we need just now. Bassa says that WW has caused forward bookings to drop, but what will be their stance when the blame for that is laid at their doorstep?

Amicus (CC89) have a meeting tomorrow btw.

[wobble2plank]

Unfortunately I believe that the BASSA spin machine, accompanied by the press, will whip up a vote of no confidence in Willie Walsh and also a vote for IA due to the forthcoming imposition of contractual changes.

Even more unfortunate is that I firmly believe that Willie and the company are not only fully prepared for such an eventuality but expect it and have robust contingency plans in place for anyone who goes along with the IA, legal or not.

I know many will scream tribunal if the P45 comes through the door but BA will carry that along for many a year and I am not sure that many of our more moderate and hard working crew would be able to cope with BA's delaying tactics.

Look at how many times they have dragged the holiday pay claim through the appeal courts!

[TorC]

wobble2plank

Yes, I fear that you are totally correct.

Even I can't believe that bassa are so naive to think the co. isn't prepared, or that they (bassa) are prepared to play a game of such brinkmanship in this situation.

Sadly, it seems most are following the simple "it's illegal" line with regards to termination. We know that the co. have already issued preliminary paperwork (an HR1 to the DWP, IIRC without checking?) but bassa have done nothing that I am aware of (as a now ex-member) to explain the implications of this. SOSR has drawn blank stares whenever I have tried to explain my very limited knowledge of it.

[nuigini]

There are some 2000 people at today's meeting.

[Re-Heat]

Anyone live-blogging the event?

[wobble2plank]

BA wants to get "sole" control of the operation ie crew complements.

Really? How bizarre? Bet that will stick in BASSA's craw!

[fred737]

How are the commuters going to cope when BA withdraws Staff Travel for anybody who does not turn up for work as a punishment after a strike.

[nuigini]

They are also saying that there is no respect for crew and that BALPA has been given a sweet deal while cabin crew are bringing the losses.

[wobble2plank]

It's not really the companies problem where employees live or how they get to work. That is more their problem. The company 'recommends' they live within a couple of hours of their base however the choice is up to them.

Could make it interesting for the chairperson ( :ugh: ) of BASSA getting to work, or even the occasional meeting.

[nuigini]

BA refused BASSA's proposal even though it's a carbon copy of the BALPA proposal.

Middle East B2B's with same amount of MBT and B2B payment.

Disruption agreement to include minimum rest.

BASSA wants Boeing 767 to go to EF and do 80% EF and 20% WW.

BASSA has agreed to remove additional crew member on certain routes as it's a massive saving.

Getting rid of another PSR would save £15 million. BA also wants PSR to be in charge instead of CSD.

85% have said NO to BA's proposal.

[Crash_and_Burn]

How dare they want "sole control" of the operation!!!!

Jeez, next the company will want to decide what routes they fly and what aircraft to buy..... without any consultaion with the unions.. Outrageous!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Imagine trying to run an operation without having to consult anyone on how best to react..... Simple, Efficient, putting the customer first, Utopia! What a dream that would be!

Apologies for being flipant, but I feel if I'm not laughing, I'd be crying.....

(Apologies for any tpyos or speelliing mistakes.. my fat fingers play havoc on a keyboard!!!)

[nuigini]

"We will not fail to support our customers" they say. Go on a strike and you will definitely do that...

[wobble2plank]

BA refused BASSA's proposal even though it's a carbon copy of the BALPA proposal.

Erm. No, it wasn't.

They failed to include the singular payment replacing the 'bonus/additional' payments that the pilots have been working to for the past 5 years. The 20% cut in those payments. The disruption agreements. The increase in hours for a 2.61% pay cut etc. etc. etc.

Put the WHOLE truth out BASSA not just the bits that will get the most emotive results.

85% have said NO to BA's proposal.

Not so sure it will be a 'proposal' for much longer, more a fixture.

[nuigini]

Erm. No, it wasn't.

They failed to include the singular payment replacing the 'bonus/additional' payments that the pilots have been working to for the past 5 years. The 20% cut in those payments. The disruption agreements. The increase in hours for a 2.61% pay cut etc. etc. etc.

Put the WHOLE truth out BASSA not just the bits that will get the most emotive results.

Not my own words. This is what being said at the meeting.

[wobble2plank]

nuigini,

Sorry, didn't mean it like that, realise it was from the meeting, I was just pointing out BASSA's spin machine was in full cycle and about to crash out of it's gimbals.

[nuigini]

Sorry, w2p. I realised you didn't mean it that way!

ST holding a speech saying that BA isn't interested, managers are incompetent and don't know what they want or how the company should be. The company is also attacking corporate levels of agreements and employment procedures agreements as well using ACAS as a way forward.

[nuigini]

3 questions asked:

- Can BA sack us is we strike? No for 12 weeks. After that re-ballot.

- Can we work to the rule? Don't do it until ballot is produced.

- 90 days letter? Where do we stand? A contract can be changed in 2 days: if we agree or they divide and conquer. BA is trying to break unity. BASSA also says NOT to sign the contract.

[wobble2plank]

Ironic isn't it that the unions that have failed to move in any way shape or form from their almost original 1970's agreements have the audacity to blame EVERY OTHER DEPARTMENT IN THE COMPANY for the problems the company faces.

They have a total inability to face the facts that they also need to align themselves with the real world and get their own house in order.

They have managed to keep themselves so closed up in their ivory towers that the crash from this adjustment is going to really hurt. Still they continue to spin away believing it is their given right to continue in such a fashion.

They have failed their membership by bringing it to such a catastrophic position and causing such a painful adjustment.

However, don't forget, it is all down to everybody else being mean and nasty.

Sad.

[wobble2plank]

Can BA sack us is we strike? No for 12 weeks. After that re-ballot.

Yes they can. See previous posts. Do you want the industrial tribunal gamble. Legal or illegal strike, if you don't turn up to work then they can dismiss you.

Can we work to the rule? Don't do it until ballot is produced.

Yep, BUT, you need to be sure, absolutely sure, of those industrial rules because if you step one millimetre over the line then BA will sack you.

90 days letter? Where do we stand? A contract can be changed in 2 days: if we agree or they divide and conquer. BA is trying to break unity. BASSA also says NOT to sign the contract.

The company employs you. If they no longer wish to employ you they are required to give you minimum contractual notification. I.e. 90 days.

BA is not a charity and can play with its train set in any way it pleases.

[MrBunker]

So it comes to this. Thousands of great staff led over the cliff's edge by a few hundred to a thousand or so militants who peer over the fence and demand the best bits of every other departments agreements, won't take anything if it's not put into the flight crew agreement too (why, we're in different jobs and we've been a lot more dynamic with the changes to our terms over the years), think they should tell the company how to run itself and, allegedly, would rather see the company buckle than take any material changes. We benchmarked ourselves with the company's agreement some 5 years ago so claiming that you won't take market rate +10% until the flight crew do (and it's crew, not deck, I don't call you cabin or galley) is so far behind the drag curve it's untrue. We've been there for ages. Ball's in your court.

That may be my little rant but it's the likes of Nutjob, Glamgirl etc (not to mention my wife) who are going to get slammed along the way by the BASSA willy-waving, and they, most assuredly, do not deserve to.

[nuigini]

BASSA now says they can legally terminate contracts but wouldn't be able to run operations the next day. ST also says if BA imposes the letters UNITE will ballot.

[Tiger]

BA is not a charity and can play with its train set in any way it pleases.

really? Work for free isn`t that charity? 1 minute Plc, next charity status and plc again? !!!... LOL

[deeceethree]

nuigini,

Do you have a mobile internet contract, and a signal in the vicinity of a certain racecourse? :ok:

Good stuff!

[Hotel Mode]

1) do you accept Ba proposal?
All no

2) do you accept unite proposals
6 no all other yes

3) do you wish unite to make further concessions to Ba?
Answer no from all

North Korea couldnt improve on that. :ugh:

[wobble2plank]

Tiger,

Valid point! :\

[DarkStar]

Breaking news...

BBC NEWS | Business | BA staff reject cost-cutting plan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8136503.stm)

[DarkStar]

Fred 737,

Hire a car, take a train, use a coach.....etc.

:hmm:

Shimples...:E

[wobble2plank]

Surprise, surprise:

A mass meeting of more than 2,000 British Airways workers has rejected the airline's plans to reduce costs by cutting jobs and freezing pay.

Staff said they were not prepared to accept an "assault" on their pay, terms and conditions.

Conciliation service Acas will chair a meeting between BA and unions on Wednesday to try to reach an agreement.

BA has been striving to cut costs in the recession. In May, the airline reported a record annual loss of £401m.

The airline had set a deadline of 30 June to reach a deal on about 3,500 job cuts, a pay freeze and other changes, but no agreement was made.

At the meeting, workers rejected BA's proposals and instead backed a union plan, which officials said could save between £100m and £130m.

Cutting costs

The union Unite said it was prepared to consider a two-year freeze on pay.

Unite claimed BA wanted to introduce a new "starter rate" of £11,000, but said this would lead to a two-tier workforce.

Last month, BA said 800 workers had volunteered to work for nothing for up to a month.

The airline had written to its 40,000 staff in the UK, asking for volunteers to work for nothing to help make savings.

BA chief Willie Walsh has already agreed to work unpaid in July, forgoing his month's salary of £61,000


Well, off we trot into another summer of discontent. I hope the other 12000 members of BASSA who probably want to keep their jobs agree with this decision?

[TorC]

So, no actual ballot for IA just yet then? Phew!

Although I guess it's only a matter of time, now that bassa is freshly enfranchised to totally reject the BA propasals, push for their own to be accepted by BA and to give no further concessions to the company.

Is it me, or does that make the upcoming ACAS meeting a little pointless? Surely the whole idea of ACAS is for both parties to make "concessions"?

Imposition here we come.

Not sure if 6 people apparently wanting no change at all is a positive or a negative.

[deeceethree]

Unite claimed BA wanted to introduce a new "starter rate" of £11,000, but said this would lead to a two-tier workforce.

Ah, so the crew at Gatwick don't count then? Chimps. :rolleyes:

[Fly380]

OK - a friend just asked me to book him a ticket from Alicante to Gatwick on 17th July - just hand luggage. Prices are as follows as of 1400Z.

Monarch 75.25 euros
Easyjet (4 flights)
41.99, 57.99, 60.99, 73.99 euros
Ryanair 67.88 euros.

British Airways 153.07 euros.

No wonder BA are having to pull out of Alicante after the summer.

Do BASSA live in the real world - obviously not. Those prices say it all really.

I expect forward bookings are disappearing with the threat of industrial action. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Fly380 retired BA upfronter!
ps I use Murcia - Gatwick. BA had to give that up years ago even using a GB Airways franchise.

[Crash_and_Burn]

I have to confess I'm a bit disappointed.

The rhetoric and output from the Kempton Park meeting could have been scripted in advance (and was on this forum). So what was the point of wasting so much subscription money on the meeting? What have they achieved?:confused:

Please don't tell me they now have a mandate to say "NO" to the company, as 2000 militants out of 14,000, while statistically significant, is not representative.:=

I feel sorry for poor people at ACAS.:ugh::ugh:

My 2 pence, for what its worth, is the company needs to drag the terms and conditions of the cabin crew into at least the 1990s, 2000s is preferable. Stop all of this consulting on disruption and begging to hand out hot towels rubbish that makes BA into a laughing stock. All the other departments have contributed a huge amount since the BEP back in 1999/2000, it's now BASSA's turn. Deal with it!:ugh:

"Opinions are like A$$holes, everyone has one!!":cool:

[Strimmerdriver]

Old Contract
New Contract
Regional now transferred contract
BCal Contract
Part Time
Job share
and of course Gatwick

[nuigini]

BBC NEWS | Business | BA staff reject cost-cutting plan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8136503.stm)

"The union Unite said it was prepared to consider a two-year freeze on pay."

Prepared to consider? BASSA suggested it in the first place.

"Unite claimed BA wanted to introduce a new "starter rate" of £11.000, but said this would lead to a two-tier workforce."

New entrant salary under present terms and conditions is £10.982. We also already have several tier workforces like old and new contracts (97).

I agree with Crash and Burn that only some 2000 was present at the meeting which is equivalent to around 14% of the entire workforce. Not really that much.

[BARCC]

Quote

I agree with Crash and Burn that only some 2000 was present at the meeting which is equivalent to around 14% of the entire workforce. Not really that much.

Maybe I am wrong but I thought B.A. were running an operation today.

[nuigini]

At least they were trying to! They also tried to run an operation over the weekend but had to canx flights because of crew going sick for different reasons.

[Perry-oaks]

They also tried to run an operation over the weekend but had to canx flights because of crew going sick for different reasons.

Take your pick of reasons as apparently this happens every year on the first weekend of July,

London Pride
Lions test
Wimbledon final
Henley Regatta
Madonna concert
Take That concert
Sunshine Sickness!

From CC News, last year that BA plan on approx 550 absentees on a normal day (no shows, sick, maternity etc). Over peak times such as this, they see in excess of 850

[Re-Heat]

I saw this apt quote from the Economist, June 4th 2009:

Blue-collar workers bear much of the responsibility for their own fate. This is particularly true in the car industry, which tended to set the pattern for much of the rest of the American economy. Trade unions frequently hampered their industries with rules that blocked more flexible and productivity-boosting manufacturing techniques (the United Auto Workers’ book of work rules ran to 5,000 pages). They also imposed unsustainable costs on their industries. In 1970 400,000 car workers—one in every 200 workers in America—went on strike for two months in order to wring job-destroying concessions out of GM. John Updike’s Harry Angstrom passed a hard verdict on this sort of self-indulgence in “Rabbit is Rich”: “Seems funny to say it, but I’m glad I lived when I did. These kids coming up, they’ll be living on table scraps. We had the meal.”

[Adi54321]

Does anyone know if there are even any more meetings between BASSA and BA scheduled ?

Correct me if I'm wrong (sure someone will) but I get the impression it was the non BASSA unions/staff that were close to agreement and ACAS were called to iron out the creases with those negotiations. Hence the "may" statement by BA.

Not sure BASSA will get offered another bite of the apple to even ask ACAS if there is a worm in it first.

[DarkStar]

"At least they were trying to! They also tried to run an operation over the weekend but had to canx flights because of crew going sick for different reasons"

Yep, BA215 BOS was cancelled due lack of Crew. Social sickness apparently...:ugh: :mad:

[nuigini]

ACAS will meet UNITE on Wednesday. That's all I know at the moment.

[Bongodog1964]

Oh my heart bleeds come down to the real world 10 days off a month think yourself lucky dear. My husband is a funeral director and can get called out up to three times in a night but still manages to do a full days work without a day off before hand. The way i see it is you have been milking the system for too long and now that times are hard and things need to be changed you go crying to the Union. To quote my father If you don't like the job get another. I am flying with BA on the 27th July and god help you lot if you ruin my holiday by your stupidity. I suggest that anyone who goes on strike gets the sack that will sort out the man from the boys.

[nuigini]

Yep, BA215 BOS was cancelled due lack of Crew. Social sickness apparently...

The load on it wasn't too good either so they probably saved some dosh by cancelling it.

[Flap33]

The BA179 LHR-JFK/BA182 JFK-LHR was also cancelled due lack of crew. Regardless of booked loads we are a scheduled airline and should run services based on said schedule. Just because the BA215 load was poor doesn't mean the inbound load was the same. One last point, don't forget the freight, regularly we load 10-15 Tonnes of freight on these flights (which happens to pay quite well).

[flapsforty]

Bongodog, instead of spouting off without turning on the old brain, I suggest you read the thread before posting again.

Nuigini being one of the posters who consistently has pleaded for BASSA to take a reality check, for BA CC to negotiate in a manner consistent with the current world wide economic crisis & downturn in pax loads on most/all airlines.
He/she is the last person deserving your venomous nonsense.

As to your husband´s line of work; good for him. A sensitive trade that requires great tact and dedication. (why not take a leaf out of his book on the tact front?). His working hours are no doubt as described by you, and quoting your father, he could change trades if he were so inclined. On the whole, your husband´s job, however arduous and praiseworthy, is utterly irrelevant to this thread.


Oh and Bongodog, like your holiday, our family holiday trip celebrating my parents 50th wedding anniversary is booked with BA, and I am becoming rather anxious about it.
Unlike you, I don´t think that threatening people on an anonymous internet forum is the way to deal with that anxiety.

Suggest you take a deep breath, remember your manners and realize that PPRuNe has and enforces certain minimum standards for on-line behaviour and output.