Must really JAA CPL training be made in same country as ATPL theory?

[N-X211]

Hi there,

I have recently passed the ATPL written exams at CAA in the UK.

When contacting one of the training schools in Spain for CPL training the school wrote me back:

"I am sorry to say that you should do the CPL in the same country as you have done the ATPL theory (JAR rules). You are welcome to come here and do the MEIR if you are interested after getting your UK JAR CPL."

I thought it is the other way round, i.e., it is the IR training that can not be done in a different country.

Can anyone clarify, where this rule really come from? ... :confused:

Many thanks

[Whirlygig]

It's in JAR-FCL and they're right. A commercial licence, along with the required theory, is a stand-alone licence and should all be taken in the same country i.e. theory and flying in the UK (in your case).

You may be able to get an exemption or transfer of the theory provided both the UK and Spanish CAAs agree.

An Instrument Rating is another rating and can be taken in any JAA country.

Cheers

Whirls

[wannabe15]

Using an illustration as an example:

ATPL Theory (Bristol Ground School, UK)
CPL flying (25 hrs) in UK
Assuming min 200hrs attained, i supposed my CPL license will be a CAA regulated

If thereafter i decide to go Spain to complete the rest, i.e MEIR, who will then be my licensing authority? UK or Spain?

[Whirlygig]

Assuming you'll live and work in the UK, then it'll be a UK JAA licence.

Cheers

Whirls

[wannabe15]

Thanks Whirlygig,

unfortunately i'm from half way around the world in the Far East. It's just that i'm comtemplating going the modular route, ie ATPL theory with Bristol, then CPL training in Australia (only JAA approved school in this part of the world). I may just end up with UK CPL first without the 55hr IR course (too expensive!) thereafter i'm looking for the MEIR rating, probably in Australia or Malaysia or Singapore, 3 countries which is more realistic for me (in terms of work and living)

cheers

[N-X211]

wannabe1 wrote:

ATPL theory with Bristol, then CPL training in Australia (only JAA approved school in this part of the world). I may just end up with UK CPL first

I understand from what you wrote that IT IS POSSIBLE to pass the ATPL exams in one country (here: UK) and do the JAA CPL training in another one (here: JAA approved school in Australia) ..

"I am still confused, but on a much higher level" :ugh:
.. please explain

Cheers

[Whirlygig]

Australia isn't in the JAA; therefore, in order for a JAA school in Australia to have JAA status, it will have to be affiliated with a JAA country's regime; probably the UK.

However, SPain is in the JAA and it's schools will be under the regulations of the JAA via the Spanish CAA.

Therefore, although you must check, the Australian JAA school will have a partnership with a UK ATPL ground school.

You cannot do a JAA IR anywhere other than JAA airpsace. If you do a non-JAA IR, you must convert it.

Cheers

Whirls

[N-X211]

Thank you Whirlygig.

That means I am allowed to get a UK CPL OUTSIDE the UK in places like US or Australia (at a correspondingly affiliated school) .. but not in JAA airspace ..

hmmm ... :yuk: .. sorry .. I couldn't help ..

[EIPCW]

Would I be correct in thinking that the UK CAA and IAA in Ireland have an agreement in which they accept eachother's ATPL exam credits?

I ask this because I wish to take the IAA ATPL's and then travel to the US to do the CPL in a UK JAA approved school

Can somebody please correct me if I am wrong in thinking this is ok to do

Cheers

[redout]

I know a guy who done his 14 ATPLs in Spain under the DGAC and got permission to do the CPL in the UK so its possible once you get permission that is. IR can be done in any JAA country.

[INNflight]

Same here, you can do ATPL exams in Austria and the UK CAA accepts them.

Yet another glorious standard of JAR..?!

[irishpilot1990]

Hello,

I am in the same boat...I have irish IAA ATPL exam results..and want to do my CPL the CAA route..from my reading of LASORS this is ok....but i am trying to get clarification from the CAA and IAA about this.
via phone calls they both have clearly stated,this is done,and had been done before.I am trying to get this in writing before i start to hopefully prevent any confusion when i apply for my CPL license.

[EIPCW]

irishpilot,

I would be interested to hear if you do get clarification on this. I have started my IAA Atpl's thinking that it is ok to then take the CAA route

[LH2]

ATPL Theory (Bristol Ground School, UK)
CPL flying (25 hrs) in UK


Assuming you'll live and work in the UK, then it'll be a UK JAA licence.

And assuming you don't, it'll still be a UK JAA licence (ask me how I know :E)

You may be able to get an exemption or transfer of the theory provided both the UK and Spanish CAAs agree.

Correct, that's it. Some countries do accept that sort of arrangement regularly (e.g., Finland, Greece, UK), others have been known to accept foreign sittings (from what I read here, Austria is one of them), yet others will never contemplate this sort of thing (France).

So to emphasise Whirly's point: it's technically possible to do what you suggest, but you have to do some legwork.

FWIW, I once met someone who had completed his theory in the UK and the flying bit in Spain. I'm not sure I would recommend it though, as you will end up with a Spanish licence, meaning that all your licence-related dealings will be with the DGAC. Now, I've never had any contact with them whatsoever so I can't speak from personal experience, but I know a couple dozen Spanish-licenced pilots and they all agree the DGAC is crap. There was even a thread in the Spanish section of Pprune a while ago discussing the various options to transfer their licences to other countries, and I know one pilot whose type rating had already expired by the time he received it from the DGAC. :uhoh:

[wannabe15]

N-X211,

Sorry for the late reply. i guess Whirlygig has answered for me. Thanks.

From my research, yes you can get your UK CPL in Australia but the IR has to be done in UK.

LH2: i'm interested in your idea. Care to share with us?

cheers

[skamil]

Whether I can do the ground training in one country for example UK, Spain but examinations to write in other JAA country?


Thanks for help.

[redbar1]

Skamil:

For a licence, splitting the theoretical gnd school and the theoretical exams is pushing it a bit far... :=

This should not happen (unless in a totally abnormal case), the intent in JAR-FCL was never anything like this. Just being able to POSSIBLY do the theory in one state, and the flying in another, took years to establish.

So, sorry mate.
Cheers,
Redbar1

[tigermagicjohn]

ATPL exams in the UK, would not be possible to use in Norway - exams has to be taken in the country of license issue for the CPL.

I was also told had to do the IR in Norway too! Because of the program the CPL school offered.

[CarbHeatIn]

You can obtain a UK CPL through FTE in Jerez, Spain.

IAA and CAA mutual recognition of ATPL (Theory)

[MartinCh]

For a licence, splitting the theoretical gnd school and the theoretical exams is pushing it a bit far...

That's exactly what I'm going to do once I do my fixed wing ICAO CPL or PPL with plenty hours and convert (whichever way) to JAA. Also will sit the exams in English :-D

Do you guys really want to pay these crazy UK CAA fees and charges??
Studying and living in the UK at the mo and can't see myself doing FW training in Europe (= most of it). So will simply use CATS for theory and sit exams far away.

So, technically, JAA/EASA airspace and theory exams and CPL LST in the same country.

BTW, I had it all authorised from the authorities in two countries, one JAA and the other will be EASA (and JAR compliant anyway)

[BigGrecian]

I want to clear this up for everyone ahs no one has mentioned it as clearly as the following statement.

"The CPL must be completed with a FTO (Flight training organisation) under the same civil aviation authority as the ATPL theory exams were completed under."

I.e if you take your exams under the UK CAA you must do your training at a UK CAA FTO - that does mean you can train in the USA, Australia etc just must be under a UK approved school.

The IAA and CAA have recopricol agreements. CAAs may also provide exemptions but this most be in writing to be effective.

Section A8 of LASORS at LASORS 2008 | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/lasors)
Where permission is required - you should assume this to be written permisison.

[SW1]

Hi,

Just wanted to check where you found that information Big Grecian.

JAR-FCL 1.065 states that training commenced under one authority may, with the agreements of both authorities, be completed under another authority- as long as training is completed with in JAA member states.

I spoke to UK CAA about this as I have completed 14 hours CPL training in the UK and wished to complete my training in another JAA Mutually recognised state.

Thanks.

[skamil]

How it works into the other side. If I will write ATPL exam (done) in Poland, Spain and I would like to do CPL practice in Ireland or UK?

[Whirlygig]

If I will write ATPL exam (done) in Poland, Spain and I would like to do CPL practice in Ireland or UK?
Only with written permission from all JAA nation states involved. And it's not a certainty that you will be given that permission; it is more likely to be refused in the scenario which you stated.

Cheers

Whirls

[navneet]

'''MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY'''
Hey guys i need you help to understand me all this conversion crap:ugh:
I am a holder of Non-JAA licence and planning to convert my licence to JAA licence.i have some queries listed below-

1-Can i write my 14 exams under IAA are they accepted in UK or vice versa..

2-IR can be done in any JAA state??


please reply

[12Watt Tim]

MartinChSo will simply use CATS for theory and sit exams far away.
Think carefully about this. The UK CAA has done a lot of work to make the exams better. A lot of terrible questions have been effectively removed from the question bank pending rewrite (which the CAA does not have the resources to do). A lot of questions written in poor English have been translated into better English. The UK CAA allows more sittings, and allows splitting of the exams when others might not.

It might be that doing the CPL in a UK CAA-approved FTO is worthwhile to gain those advantages.

P.S. for anyone confused, I am assuming Martin will have enough experience to be exempt formal training. Britain has more schools and so more choice and competition than most countries, therefore training is generally good and can be well-priced.

navneet

1 - Yes, the UK CAA and the IAA have an agreement. Check this is still in place before starting.

2 - Yes, once your CPL is issued.

[navneet]

thnks MartinCh for your reply.....i am planning to do my JAA conversion form Ireland the reason is i have my relatives living in ireland so i can save my living expense:D ..what you advise me is it good to do my conversion from ireland or from UK? Doest it going to make any difference and if i wish to work in U.K what are the standards to convert it into UK JAA ??
thnks.....

[MartinCh]

12W Tim,

It's pointless to sit the exams in the UK. I'm more rotary minded, but want to do lots of tailwheel flying around the world, including USA, where I'm planning to do FAA CPL(A) and (H) and when back in Europe, doing SE IR and CPL LST with ATPL theory sat in Prague.

I am not going to study off the QB only. CATS is good enough for me for English theory exams in Czech Rep.

It'll cost me couple thousand pounds less than trying to achieve UK CAA CPL(A) and the heli bridging modules or both taken same time to keep it fresh in mind, why not.. Why should I support the UK CAA racket (fees and charges)?
Enough I'll have to pay 40 quid or so for second resit (should I fail one of my 12 other exams for aircraft eng). Especially as I need to save tons of cash yet another handful of years for all my plans.
Not to mention LST fees, revalidation, etc.

Did I mention I can pick almost any week to sit the exams in Prague at much shorter notice? Also the results quite fast.

Btw, I started part-66 aero eng training in the UK and plan to do Mod 12 (heli systems and structures) to get B1.3 as well, besides B1.1.
The width and depth of my exams for part-66 are both more extensive than the ATPL theory (some technical modules). So my situation isn't good example.

navneet, I'd be talking crap if I tried to give you solid answer and comparison between IAA and UK CAA. You've got enough mentioned here. Best to check with CAA yourself if you don't trust some other opinions in this thread.
I got in touch with Czech CAA to confirm it with them that my plans are kosher. Since I'm Czech citizen as well, it's OK.

[navneet]

Thnks MartinCh...i am still in search to get a proper answer:{
if you get any info leme know...n ya i'l definatly check CAA website
cheers mate:ok:

[bedix84]

So i want someone that he/she assure me and tell me the correct rule:
In my case i did the JAA ATPL THEORY in Italy and i'd like to do the JAA CPL in USA...can i do this?? it will be valid??
Please explain to me!:sad:
THanks to all

[FMC2020]

Hi,
Im new to this, i have an irish class 1 medical and moving out to Perth Oz, i have few questions..
Iif i do my training in oz and get the licence if i decide on movin back to ireland
just wondering about converting it then to jaa standard,

Any replies much appriciated,
So confused

Thanks in advance

[bedix84]

for those who are interested here the reply from UK CAA:

The Uk CAA will recognise a valid pass in JAR-FCL theoretical knowledge examinations (except PPL) completed in another JAA member state .

See LASORS,General information, pag9, point A8, STATE OF LICENCE ISSUE.

At this point uìi want to know from you, as i understood, i have to send to the CAA UK( what address???) just the copy of the certification of the completed JAA ATPL theoretical knowledgeexaminations with enclosed a copy of the medical certificate class 1 to receive back the UK certification,is it right?

[goldeneyes]

hi, i tried to look for an answer but I just couldnt.
I am a non UK citizen have a CAA ATPL , and I would like to do my CPL training in Spain (Valencia), would the CAA be kind and issue me a CPL if I get all paperworks (skill test) back to UK?? thanks