European ATC experienced controller hiring...BS!

[tesox]

I just spent 8 months of crap negotiations with a specific operator in Europe. It was an opportunity to work in Europe as an experienced controller...I can say, experience means squat to these guys, you start at the bottom...you worked a busy radar terminal for 10 years, sitting at the top increment at your local company and these guys want you to go over there, start off at the lowest salary increment, start off at the bottom of seniority (which I understand is fair to locals), pick up your family, throw your kids in the local system after never speaking the local language and do it with a :mad: smile while you're getting it up the proverbial :mad:. I am pissed off that I wasted this much time to realize that I almost gave up being with one of the best companies in one of the best countries, with some of the best pay and conditions for a crazy idea of living somewhere unique with great opportunity...nearly got sucked in to that one.

In my opinion, if your that short staffed, there must be a reason...Im worth more than what you're offering...what sucks for you is that I truly know that now!:ok:

[ron83]

Hi m8,

you can PM if you want,giving more details in order maybe not to do same thing :hmm::rolleyes:
I thing this is one disadvantage,that even if u relocating u don't know even if they gonna accept u until u passed UTP :rolleyes:

[spike_scramble]

talking about the Kraut's?

the conditions are much more than BS! AFAIK they're gonna hire now staff they've thrown out in the past (not meeting the criteria for an ab-initio, didn't get the checks, and so on......) just to fill up the gaps for the "experienced" they're missing....
an other "solution" is to recruit (ex)mil-staff for high dense sectors. problem is: they had for years/decades a cushy number of movs (let's say 15-20 a day) and now they're going underground in live traffic... ;) crazy is that.....:ugh:

[RobertK]

the conditions are much more than BS! AFAIK they're gonna hire now staff they've thrown out in the past (not meeting the criteria for an ab-initio, didn't get the checks, and so on......) just to fill up the gaps for the "experienced" they're missing....
Not happening.

an other "solution" is to recruit (ex)mil-staff for high dense sectors.
Also not happening.
Who is telling you this stuff?

Regards,

Robert

[ImnotanERIC]

tesox, why the secrecy? what country are you currently in, what country were you applying for?

[elcrusoe]

In regards to some of the comments on the ATC provider in question that we all suppose he is talking about. I very doubtfully think that they will try to fill the gaps with leftovers. I worked 4 years in Germany when i was in the military and worked along side some great and professional people. I also had the chance to visit one of the centers which was very welcoming.
So when the chance popped up. I always applied for the chance to possibly work with some great people in a top scale environment but unfortunately even with being married to a german and having lived in germany and my little to no experience i was left behind. So i just wanna put forth that they do not just hire anybody. Germans have high standards and expect alot from an employee. MAybe at first money and situation is harsh but with time you gain respect and power to move up.
And like they said to me this is not the UAE so don't expect the same package!!!

[Blockla]

It may not be the UAE, but when I chose to move to Ireland, they were on my radar...

DFS were not prepared to offer anything other than "their deal" and wouldn't budge; which IMHO was nothing like what I was worth and certainly didn't recognise my 17 years of ATC experience.

DFS had a better employment rep than the IAA but financially I couldn't justify it; I wasn't looking at making a mozza (or I would have gone to the UAE/Bahrain), but just getting a fair deal; I didn't want to go backwards financially, With the IAA I'm more or less even, with the DFS I would have been way behind.

But still I didn't spit the dummy for wasting my time, I just politely said thanks for the offer, it's not viable, I won't be coming...

[ron83]

so if this is about DFS,surprises,on their web site,they offer positions for experienced controller,for those APS/ACS/RAD even not requiring german language, which is already a big deal,since in a lot of countries u can't get position because u don't speak local,let's say Norway:rolleyes:

[approach control]

For APS they requested to know German language, and also because I don't have ACS they offered me an instructor job in Langen accademy, I said no thank you, I'm too young to go and work in office, and yes UAE package is far more better.:ok:

[tesox]

Im not divulging anything other than facts...there is no spitting involved, everyone was very professional, the standards were exceptionally high, they are very thorough about background checks, abilities etc. I was very impressed with the high calibre of controllers that I met, and the professionalism of the specific people during my negotiation. I am only stating my frustration with a company that thinks it can get quality for cheap, especially for a country that produces some of the highest \9and most expensive) gear in the world. I would have had to take a huge step back in seniority, pay, experience, benefits etc for this to work...why would one do that? I work in a great spot now, I was told from the beginning that my kids private school would be covered, that the salary would be over 105euros annual and that all costs with the move including living bonus would be covered to move there. I wasnt asking for anything more than to be comfortable like I am now. After school fees were assessed by the company, they changed their offer to cover only half of the cost for 3 years...my kids are in grades 4 and 6 and I am not prepared to enter them to a full on foreign language curriculum..they need to continue in english and to receive that over there, it would have cost over 27,000 euro a year for both kids, plus housing living, trips, etc...I would never have made it.

Hey at the end of the day, they cant compromise too much for me, and I cant compromise too much for them, it just wasnt a mutually beneficial opportunity...for someone out there though, I truly think this is an awesome opportunity...perhaps one with tiny little kids, or no kids, or no spouse. It is a great part of the world, and living conditions appear quite high...the work environment looked good, and the salary was quite good as well.

My two cents on my particular circumstance...obviously other people may have had a better opportunity to make it work for them. Im sorry for being so brief and curt this mornings post...didnt mean to offend anyone.
\
Ciao

[spike_scramble]

@RobertK

1) leftovers are being recruited in the past and will be in the future... just an example: s.o. didn't get several checks out of langen acc (2,5 years of training), being posted to a small airfield/office work, etc...., dfs noticed the lack of "experienced" controllers, mentioned person is filling the gap....

2) you deny the "insider deal" between the dfs and the mil's. ever been to krh uac?

[!turnleftrightnow!]

Hey tesox,
I don´t really understand your problem:
Once you decide to live in another country you should be willing to adapt to its society. I think it´s strange to expect a life you were used to live in you homecountry when being abroad. So why is it impossible for your children to join the regular school system in Germany? The standard is very high - and it´s free! Children usually have a lot less trouble in getting used to new circumstances and for me personally it is a must to learn the language that is spoken in the country I live in.
Regarding the salary: The controllers union is pretty strong over here. How could the DFS ever justify that you needed more money than the other controllers?
On the other side I have to agree that working for the DFS is kind of frustrating. Workload is really high and instead of receiving some appreciation they tell you that you are not worth the money you get for what you do.
Best Regards...

[Blockla]

DFS ever justify that you needed more money than the other controllers?I wasn't asking for more....

I was 'offered' a trainee wage while at the college/training and then about half way up the pay bands on validation; If you want a bank manager you pay for a bank manager not a teller... They did offer me access to 'allowances' which in time I would pay back through my salary; so they certainly weren't offering more.

[tesox]

I want to respond to the confusion about my 'problem'. Here is a company that is looking for experienced controllers to quickly check out on live traffic. The idea is that they will fill gaps quickly while saving costs on training etc. I realize that a substantial amoun t of money will still be spent on moving expenses etc, but the balance sheet still shows a tremendous savings of money hiring an experienced controller over training an ab initio. This takes me to my first point which is that I personally did not expect to be paid more or receive more than any of the local controllers, I expected to atleast receive a salary which was comparable in scale to the one which I have attained in my home country. I have 10 years experience, radar terminal and enroute, I am experienced with some of the most advanced technology available to ATC in the world, certainly more advanced than what I saw over there! I would have been licenced in less than half the time of a local, and they were expecting me to start at the base salary level! That is not fair, I would have been giving up a lot for this move and there should at least be a compensation at the equivelent experience level of their local controllers.
The second point I am making is that I had full intention on becoming fully integrated in to the local society, I was already in language lessons, my family also. I researched customs, etiquettes, holidays, manners, etc...I was quite excited to be come apart of another society as a fully functioning and tax paying, law abiding citizen...my family was on that course too! I dont think that given the current level of education that my kids are at, that they would have been given a fair chance of not only reaching the level of their equivelent classmates, but excelling at it...I researched how the education system works there, and I know that they would not have been given as fair a chance at further education due to their lack of local language abilities. The international school system is established to accommodate the integration of children of expatriates. Continuing the education in their native language, while introducing them to the local language. They are trained to empathize with the children who have moved, and introduce them slowly and securely to their new environment. It isnt healty to dump a kid into a foreign education system half way through and expect them to swim...you know, and I know its a cut throat world, and it doesnt start after school! The company was not interested in the proper integration of my whole family ( I am a package deal, its not just me) the kids and my spouse being the most integral parts to a successful move...I dont get it, if my family isnt happy, Im not going to be either...and I would cut loose with no problems if they werent happy. Continuing my second point, I take up issue with the company for expecting an expatriate to accommodate almost entirely their entire integration including the cost to it...I would have been saving the company enough in training costs to more than cover my kids schooling...that isn't wanting more...its wanting whats fair.

Cheers,
tesox

[ImnotanERIC]

sounds a bit like sour grapes to me. if you don't like it, don't go. you obviously didn't, and therefore haven't so i don't get where all this pissing and moaning is coming from.
I don't understand why you are failing to mention company names aswell. If you are writing on here just to "vent" why not just write it down on a piece of paper instead of posting on here for all the good it will do.
k-m-t.

[Jerricho]

This whole "experienced controller" thing is a funny game. Some folk out there in the past have received generous packages to up sticks and move country (including relocation costs, legals paid for first house purchase etc), other have been promised similar and turned up to find they've been outright lied to........sorry, found the "situation has changed somewhat, this is the offer, take it or leave it". I have it on fairly good authority that with one ANS, if one had 15 years Terminal/Approach experience under his/her belt, you "might" get a Terminal sector at your new place of employment, or not.

By the sounds of it, this is kinda the situation Tesox has been put it. The ANS said they will do one thing to obtain his services as a licenced controller, yet to find out that isn't going to be the case.......how many others out there would be pissed off?

Caveat emptor in ATC???

[Yippee]

I very much agree. The terms that are promised vs. the reality when you actually are completing the move can be VERY different. To the extent that the move that seemed to be rewarding in fact is not.

IMHO Tesox is right about facts that everyone moving abroad should consider.

Even a letter signed by someone titled as a D.G. is not every time worth the paper it is printed on.

So it is better to be prepared, that terms and conditions can change. Not that often they change for your benefit. Or the benefit of your family.

I understand the feelings associated to bringing a family in a situation like that. Responsible ANSP:s are building their reputation among controllers now. Since all ANSP:s are saving and some are even cutting back on training, there will be lack of controllers quite soon.

It just might be that a good reputation helps in recruiting in better times.

[tesox]

Yes I am pissed off...again, I was told in the beginning (8 months ago) that I would receive package a,b,c....after 8 months that package seriously changed to x,y,z...I had a lot of people in our family, friends and my work preparing for this move...under the initial tentative agreement, things looked quite good...after 8 months, the real deal was much much different...I am merely writing not to vent frustration, but to alarm others under similiar circumstances to the situation that may lay ahead for them...

PS. Im not overly secrative...the simplest of searches will tell you where I was going.

[ron83]

totally on tesox's side.
Such ANSP's should be known to others in order to be prepared...:rolleyes:

[!turnleftrightnow!]

@ ImnotanERIC
I totally agree with you!

@ tesox
I´m sorry that my company lied to you! No one should be treated like that! On the other hand I was very surprised if they had approved to all those requests. I wouldn´t have recognised the company I´m working for.:rolleyes:

[RobertK]

1) leftovers are being recruited in the past and will be in the future... just an example: s.o. didn't get several checks out of langen acc (2,5 years of training), being posted to a small airfield/office work, etc...., dfs noticed the lack of "experienced" controllers, mentioned person is filling the gap....
How can he fill the gap when he didn't pass the checks and works at a small airfield/office work? :P
I have heard of cases where people have been given second chances at another unit and sometimes been dragged along in training for quite a long time until ultimately leaving (or miraculously passing), but no such thing as you mention.

2) you deny the "insider deal" between the dfs and the mil's. ever been to krh uac?
There are 150+ trainees at the Academy right now, none of them military (the last small military course just left).
So, where are all those uniformed gap-fillers supposed to save us?

Regards,

Robert

[spike_scramble]

How can he fill the gap when he didn't pass the checks and works at a small airfield/office work? :P
I have heard of cases where people have been given second chances at another unit and sometimes been dragged along in training for quite a long time until ultimately leaving (or miraculously passing), but no such thing as you mention.well, you're less than 2 years in the ops room, right? wait for another 3, you'll see....


There are 150+ trainees at the Academy right now, none of them military (the last small military course just left).
So, where are all those uniformed gap-fillers supposed to save us?right next to you?

[RobertK]

well, you're less than 2 years in the ops room, right? wait for another 3, you'll see....
Well, I'll believe it when I see it. :E

right next to you?
All those in DFS right now (including that last course) were planned in before this current "OMG we have too few controllers" "surprise".
So if they really tried to fill the gaps now, there would be new military courses.
I'm not saying they won't do that if it was possible. It isn't however. The military has its own gaps to fill, and is not sending any more.

Regards,

Robert

[spike_scramble]

current "OMG we have too few controllers" "surprise"the FI-ad was published July/August 2008.....


So if they really tried to fill the gaps now, there would be new military courses. [...] The military has its own gaps to fill, and is not sending any more.70% fail in the DFS-academy, min. 10% more in OJT - hard to get s.o. to pull out the uniform. and those who left have to "problems" stated above......

[tesox]

70% fail in the academy? Yikes...I feel even better now.

[spike_scramble]

70% fail in the academy?

is related to the mil's in the academy....

[RobertK]

the FI-ad was published July/August 2008.....
The last military course started very early 2008.
And seeing how "quick" organizations like the DFS and Bundeswehr are, the actual planning of that course was done even much earlier than that.

70% fail in the DFS-academy, min. 10% more in OJT - hard to get s.o. to pull out the uniform. and those who left have to "problems" stated above......
I'm really not sure where you get your information from.
At the Academy it has been less than a quarter for the last three military courses (that covers three years).
OJT is a different matter (the number is actually higher than 10%), but that's similar for civilian trainees.

Regards,

Robert

[spike_scramble]

At the Academy it has been less than a quarter for the last three military courses (that covers three years).hahaha, mr. former navy officer.... remember a course in 2006 (seems to be within these 3 years), don't know the number right now, where 50% of the camouflaged didn't made it in the sim (of the academy).... the plight continued in the sim and in live traffic.
so, just to abandon the field, you're much more "deeper" in there :}

[ron83]

I think we start to loosing initial thread:}

Guys, what are the Minimum hours required for Unit endorsement at DFS/ and UAE for APS/RAD? And how long it takes in months time? ;)
If u like,u can PM.

Cheers,Ron.

[prascho]

DFS.... DFS ......i have informed u guys what to expect but..... burn baby now burn
Germans r the best CHEATERS ....i dont know better

[MenWithHandTools]

Well this has been a very interesting read. Here I am with my own little thread over yonder how-do-i-get-europe (http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/379766-how-do-i-get-europe.html) looking to find a good way for an experienced controller to find work on the other side of the world and I find unhappiness and confusion. Sounds like everywhere.:suspect:

Nevertheless, I will not be deterred and make best of what is put before me.

Who is worth contacting directly to start chatting about possibilities in France, Germany, Switzerland etc?

[ferris]

If you want to start a thread comparing various international options, then it would probably be well received. This thread is about DFS, and I would be interested to hear from people who made the decision to go ahead with them.

Otherwise, leave the bs out for instance Australia. cop a 20% tax on it Stick to stuff you know about.