EK Command upgrade and fleet transfer policy FCI 2009-046

[radial090]

All EK FO'S looking forward to upgrade's in the near future.

3000 Hrs now required on ek type 330/340 or 777.

Guys that just went over to the 777, 1000 hrs stick time now required.

The beating's will continue until morale improves.

[White Knight]

I have to say that the flow chart is a work of art!!! I wondered what happened in the cozy offices all day - now we know:}

So - the F/Os who went 380 will be well and truly stuck there now, and then finally when 'unfrozen' it's right seat 330 for at least 3 months more:\

[Instant Hooligan]

Hard time definition also changed from a/c with MTOW of 10,00kgs to 55,000kgs. All the guys off corporate or RJ's now need 4000 hours hard time before upgrade.

[Fugazi]

3000 hrs on EK type for upgrade!!! :{ I'm gonna have to start going sick less!! ;) Another good way of increasing our productivity I guess. Gotta feel for the 380 f/o's though. A serious shafting :(

[BigJetDog]

I barely ever read PPrune but EK has out did them selves. This is complete BS.
They are forcing us in a corner to fight back, anyone that has a plan, would love to hear it.
I am responding AS as a first step.

[Aircav]

I told you so!

Let us try and guess what is going to be the next installment of Circque du Emirates.

No suitably qualified FO's so TCAS and TCED can now bring in all their brown nose buddies as DEC's to help them spread only positive spin.

Watch this space!

Keep being B*@@ered.

[Hook]

I concur with aircav.
The only meaning of this is a new intake of many DECs. Few F/Os have the new requirements.

[Instant Hooligan]

I been here just over 3 years and have under EK's definition of hard time approx 1600 hours( only P1 or P2 counted). So to make my 3000 hour upgrade requirement i'm now looking at just under 6 years. For those needing the 4000 hour hard time requirement when they join that looks more like 8 years. Just a little perspective on the newly enforced upgrade timeline for new joiners. For all the people who say that's still not bad please understand this is an artificial barrier to allow DEC's to jump once previously qualified F\O's.

[White Sausage]

Even though this FCI doesn´t affect me, I feel utterly disgusted about the treatment of my fellow FO´s. As you guys pointed out, this is just a door opener for Ed´s DEC friends, nothing else.:ugh:

[Shilling Bit]

Oh dear...look what they have done now!

[5star]

Very very painful this one for >500 of the FO's here.

The outcome will mainly depend on the economy. If it stays down for a while it should not affect too many FO's : the number of upgrades is very limited anyhow this year on all fleets. If however things pick up, then it will hurt big time I guess. The biggest one to swallow is for the 380 guys. Oh dear...

Well EK, I guess you lost the last glance of credit with a big part of your FO's. At least they dropped their' masks completely now.

If only someone could explain the reason for this sh@ft1ng. Of all incidents from last 6 months, to my knowledge, there was NEVER a recently upgraded guy involved.

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[5star]

Yes, you are right on most issues but you fail to address the most important thing of all : EK has the WORST training department I have seen in my carreer. I'll correct the name: it should be checking department.

During my initial training I could not believe the cr@p they came up with. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I worked for a few major outfits in Europe so I have seen how training is done. And I consider myself LUCKY I can fall back on this experience.
So as long as the puppets in the BS castle don't address the training itself, nothing is gonna change in the quality of the upgrade pool.

[Marooned]

They talk about experience then they get DECs with absolutely none on type or the route network.

The lunatics are running the asylum. :ugh:

[yankee22]

Wow... Unbelieveable!!!! This is just another way of beating down the pilot group. These amendments to the contract are getting out of hand. Things just keep getting worse and worse at EK...

And to "EK Lawyer".... be aware that many of the FO's stuck on the A380 were dooped into going over. The initial letter was an expression of interest.... remember. And then when they locked the list, they had no choice but to stay. Don't paint the FO's with the same brush. Most of the guys I've talked to were not happy going over to begin with.

With changes like this.... what reason would there be to stay in Dubai???? Appears as if there will be a mad exodus from the land of sand. And why would any FO with a clue want to come now... and wait for a decade to upgrade. What would be the benefit... when you can do the same at home. Guess this means the doors will be wide open for DEC's....

[ATSU]

Colleagues (to quote the speaking seabiscuit)

My fellow FO's who are probably judiciously auditing personal logbooks at this very hour please be reminded that time spent in the bunk and/or business class doesn't count! Sorry but the hits keep coming.

IMHO this is a well thought out plan of subterfuge that has nothing to do with increasing standards and everything to do with slowing/stopping the upgrade programme without coming right out and saying so. Anybody remember "lipstick on a pig"? The increase in the productivity threshold created additional crew overnight and with no deliveries in FY2010 we are probably overstaffed. When the upgrades slowed down/stopped on the 'bus a few years back it was a bit of a PR disaster. Applications dried-up and MGMT was forced to actually improve our pay and some conditions. This time all they have to say is that the programme hasn't stopped - there just aren't any qualified candidates.

My heart really goes out to those guys that joined within the last 18 months:

Temporary Accomadation (became semi-permanent)
Productivity Threshold moved - effective decrease in pay
No 3% adjustment - No bonus despite US$400M "profit"
When they do move to Al Waha - no phone/internet
Can't establish a garden because .................
DEWA - AED21,600 cap
And now Command in 2014 maybe.....


WOW

[kiwi]

My wife pointed something out that I hadn't considered. Maybe the management are deliberatley trying to goad people into leaving so they can reduce numbers without having to have it labeled "redundancy". Face is so important to this company.
I would suggest it will be like everything else around here, when they can't crew aircraft, when the recession ends there will be another new Upgrade and Transition policy!
Recommend not throwing in the job unless / until you have something better to go to, it may be just what they want!

[White Knight]

13 posts in 10 years kiwi:ok: Good effort matey.

[White Sausage]

White Knight: :ok::} I nearly fell off my chair!!! Keep it coming dude!!!

[kiwi]

Joined ten years ago to research coming to the Middle East for a job. Never felt the need to share my opinions till recently! And your point is????

[filejw]

Some people have better things to do and just use this site for a little amusement......:rolleyes:

[Instant Hooligan]

FCI = F*%K the CREW INITIATIVE.
Look on the brightside, I'll be upgrading just in time to walk with all of my whooping provident fund.

[AC Driver]

White Knight,

1062 posts, ... you obviously have no life... :cool:

[4HolerPoler]

Chill guys - not the time to be bickering.

Shake hands & move on. If you ardently feel the need to unload or snipe do it by PM please.

4HP

[White Knight]

No point Kiwi - and I wasn't being nasty!! Honest:ok::ok:

[pissedoffpilotek]

dont worry the hrs will increase to 1000 per year soon.
lots will leave so everyone will work their arses off and it will only take 4 years to get 4000 hrs:ugh::ugh:

[Kamelchaser]

As well as the DEC angle, it would not surprise me if this policy was introduced to stop FO's calling sick....Now that productivity only kicks in at 93ish hours, why would anybody go to work to do a BOM night return with 85hrs on the clock for the month when you're tired...for only a few hundred AED. (Do so these days and you risk your job if you make a small error).

So..with the inevitable increase in "push button 2" modus operandi..what better way to push the FO's into turning up than forcing them to work harder for their command. Would certainly be a difference of quite a few months between someone doing 90hrs/month versus someone doing 75hrs a month.

[BigJetDog]

I will still call in sick. I don't think the 4 months will make a difference for me after waiting for 4 years. :ouch:

6 hrs for a BOM flight * 12 Months * 4 years = 288 hrs you will benifit for not calling in sick over 4 years, big F-ing deal.

[Gulf News]

Something that I can’t quite figure out here is what the motive is behind this latest policy. It serves little purpose other than to antagonize 45% of the pilot workforce for no perceivable gain.

A perfect contradiction. It is ok for the company to have the commander buried in the most remote location on the aircraft during his crew rest with two F/Os at the controls. The company line on this is that the caliber and training of the first officers is such that they are quite capable of handling any situation without the assistance of the Captain. All well and good. However with this new policy First Officers are not considered worthy of the left seat until they have at least 3000hrs on an EK type along with all the other restrictions.

Was it the company insurers who insisted on this? It is the only logical explanation I can come up with. Following this logic then surely similar restrictions should be placed on Post Holders and Managers within the company. Lets see how they stack up.

EVP Flight Operations & Engineering: AAR. An engineer (not a very competent one I am told) with no relevant flight experience.

DSVP Flight Ops. TCAS. No experience on EK type did fly long-haul at BA where the longest sector was about 11 hours with four crew then the whole lot had to stop for a round of Gin & Tonics and practice saying “ The Speedbird” followed by a week off in France.

VP Fleet; Ed Ah bless him. No relevant type experience. Possible long-haul experience as an F/O only, then Union Rep followed by an honors degree in greasy pole climbing. Longest sector flown in command on an RJ probably 3 hours. Has the audacity to call himself Captain though and occasionally dresses up for the part to amuse the troops.

VPFT: MM. To be fair jury still out on this one however no relevant EK experience and not an awful lot of civil command time I am told. Talks the talk still waiting to see if he can walk the walk.

As for the other minions CPs and DCPs, they are largely irrelevant in the decision making process. CP A380 is an illiterate incompetent buffoon but hey he is local so who cares. CP Boeing has actually spent some time in the trenches but he too is local and has reached the stage where he couldn’t give a sh_t about anything. As for DCP Boeing, I very much doubt that he has more than 3000 hrs on an EK type because he spends most of his days thinking up cunning and irrelevant questions to ask upgrade candidates. Should have a bit of time on his hands now though.

All in all not a very inspiring bunch.

Great post GN - post of the week award :ok: 4HP

[BigJetDog]

The time has come to increase your flight time:
1. No more directs,
2. No more High speed below 10,000 (EK thinks this is bad anyhow)
3. Wow that is a big cloud 25 right of track,
4. Full approaches when possible,
5. Have to be very safe since I am inexperienced, Drag It In

Who will join. :ok:

[Easy Ryder]

Well this amongst everything else recently will certainly put off any new joiners! I feel for everyone over there, this is just ridiculous! What are they smoking?

Ok so at today's rate of flying how long would it take an FO to reach 3000hrs on the 777 or 330/340? 5-6 yrs?

[halas]

Bet you wishing your back on the 332 now 388. ;)

All those BOC sub-continent flights are suddenly worthwhile now, for some.

halas

[Cessna1052]

Can we consider the B744 used in Skycargo under the EK aircraft type? anyone?
EK operates it as wet leased, together with their own pilots and I am guessing their own set of standards too.

[Ahad Adump]

Local FO's benefit from this.

The reason is: To accelerate their command. In line with HH wishes.

Plain and simple

[Cessna1052]

Lets not put the attention to the Local FO's, im sure they have nothing to do with it. Besides its their Country, their land and their Airline. HH can do anything for their benefits.

What do i call myself again? ah, Expat.

[Dune]

My post 01 Mar 2004:

Time to Command??

Very tough question given the huge movement of the goalposts by EK management. The decision to forego the established seniority list in favour of DEC's and the fact there is no contractual obligation to provide equal (or in fact ANY) opportunities for command in the expat F/O contracts raises a whole new set of possibilities.

One of the issues I am surprised hasn't surfaced yet is whether there will be ANY commands for future or current expat F/O's in EK in the not too distant future. Think it couldn't happen; then think again. It may have already begun.

Everyone seems to assume because of the planned expansion rate everyone joining the company will get a left seat in the future. Everyone seems reassured by the management statements that they only intend upon hiring 100 or so DEC's to fill the "short term void" (which incidentally really does not exist; it has been created by the management to justify the entry of DEC's).

Just for argument sake, what if the DEC program ends up being a success in the eyes of management (due to either training cost savings, perceived increases in experience which you could argue we would attain by hiring an "experienced" DEC and keeping our very experienced F/O's in the RH seat, etc); would that not give them pause to reconsider the entire issue of "limited" DEC's?

Playing devils advocate, I would say that should the current DEC program work out as management feels it will then there is a very real chance EK could go the way of other Far East and Middle East airlines who have reduced or entirely eliminated expat F/O to Capt upgrades and keep the current EK F/O's as F/O's. This of course would not apply to local F/O's who would be given upgrade because they are locals. Is there 600 DEC's in this world EK could hire in the next 8 years (75/year)? Absolutely; and probably more so now that many Captains in "less than ideal" airlines around the world with less than 3000 hours PIC (who may have come to EK as F/O's before the DEC changes) are now forgoing application to EK as F/O's and instead are staying at their current companies to get the PIC hours to apply as DEC's to EK.

Couldn't happen?? Same people thought that at NASDAQ 5000! In my opinion it is not outside the realm of possibility and in fact very possible. And should that be the case, maybe the question everyone should be asking should not be WHEN but IF a command is possible (and it better be clearly spelled out in your contract if you are counting on it). And if not, can you afford to spend the remainder of your career in EK at the F/O wage scales?

My post 13 Mar 2004:

Not a big fan of 411A but in this case I do agree with most of what both he and Millerscourt have said on this subject.

Having come to EK during what could be considered the "better" times I have continued to see the terms and conditions deteriorate over the past number of years as costs continue to rise in DXB. I guess we all make the decision to work offshore for different reasons. I came here for one primary reason and it isn't the +42 degrees in July. I came here primarily for the money combined to a lesser degree with the lifestyle I knew would be reasonable in Dubai. I have not been disappointed in DXB from a lifestyle point of view (with the exception of the driving) but certainly from a money point of view things have not progressed as I hoped they would.

There appears to be no end in sight given our current management's lack of respect towards the pilots and an unwillingness to even acknowledge there is a problem. Of course this is somewhat of a world wide phenomena but given the lack of any form of unions or pilot representation within EK I feel we are in a much more precarious position than those at most other carriers. The parallels to Gulf Air in the 80's are uncomfortably similar.

I think the bottom line to those that are either currently coming to EK or those that are thinking of doing so as First Officers (doesn't apply to DEC's as the deal they are getting is quite reasonable) is to look very carefully at your current career. As I alluded to in another thread on EK commands

EK time to Command???

I think there is a very real possibility that in the near future there will be no further upgrades from within EK (or at the very best, you are looking at many, many years to get to the left seat). You have to ask yourself whether you can afford to:

a) live on the current F/O wages and conditions in DXB for the rest of your career at EK (because it does not appear there is any impetus within the EK management to improve the money), and/or

b) allow your career to stagnate should this occur given the only other alternative would be to again uproot and try to find a new job that provides a future command.

I'm not saying come or don't come; just saying have a very close look at it. I would suggest for those with families that have school age children (education costs are expected to increase another 20% very soon and there is a good chance this will not be covered by EK) I feel it is an incredible gamble on your family’s financial future to come to EK given what my "crystal ball" shows might happen. I really hope I'm wrong, not only for those that might be coming but more importantly for those that are currently here waiting for the command. The last thing I would want anyone to do is come to EK unprepared for the worst (unlike our EVP Eng & Operations who apparently at the meeting formally requested inside information about EK NOT be released to PPRuNe, thereby not allowing individuals to make educated decisions), blinded by the shiny airplanes and the beaches, and then be stuck in the right seat for the rest of their careers wondering why the hell they made the move. There is a tremendous amount of information on Emirates on this website now to do with this subject; certainly enough to help each individual make a knowledge decision.

I empathize with all the F/O's at EK who are affected by this but the writing has been on the wall FOR YEARS.

For those who did not do their homework before coming here; I feel sorry for you but you were warned by me (as well as 100's of others on this website) back in 2004. You have no one to blame but yourselves.

For those who are still considering coming to EK; this might be your last opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others before you make the same mistake they did. Are you seriously prepared to give up your career to sign over you and your family (which you literally do) to this company??????


Disclosure: Multi-year EK Captain who has nothing to gain by dissuading others from joining. Doing my time and getting the hell out of here at the first available opportunity.

[Watchdog]

gulf news,
Apparently the directive to "up the hours" came down from above of all the guys you mention, and was a result of MEL. :=

[yankee22]

This place sucks... A total scam in my opinion. Anyone with a clue who is thinking of coming... think again. Especially FO's....

The contract they hire you on changes by the day.... and we have no way of fighting back.

Something seems to tell me having a union wouldn't be so bad after all....

[SunNFun]

Dune, for people hired in '04 and '05 it worked quite well. They're most probably now captains and "enjoying" being constantly second guessed now.

I most certainly second most of the sentiments aired here (since I have to sit next to people who would not be captains under the new rules but still are; and have to make up for their lack of experience) but do not forget: you are an expat.

I have never for a second bought this B$ about "finishing your career" at EK. You are an expat and you're here for one reason: To be a stop gap. But, and I'm sure EK Management realises this too, this is a two way road. I for sure will leave here as fast as I got here when openings will come up in a year or so. Unless they pay me to stay, that's what expats do. And if they do not, well, a couple thousand hours of WB intl. experience will be worthwile when all those geezers finally retire when they turn 65... ;)

But for now management has decided to go for the short term budget saver than for the long term career builder. They'll reap what they sow eventually.

As far as the reasoning for the FCI, well that's an easy one: Since they do not need that many Captains anymore they might just go for the more experienced F/O's and DEC's.

[planesmack]

What is the big deal of 3000 hours??? There were no promises in my contract for any committed upgrade.

As for DEC's, it is abundantly evident that they are cheaper to employ for five years, give or take, than to upgrade a F/O, especially due to the fact... most of their (DEC) children are grown and gone.

I have to admit I just howl at the arrogance of so many pilots screaming and moaning about all of their problems... as the house maids clean, the gardeners take care of the lawn, the nannies take care of their children, and all the wives are out for coffee or having their nails done....and planning the next exotic vacation. It is almost exhausting but yet I find so much humor in the entire ordeal that I can't stop reading pprune.

I would suggest to those of you employed by EK, if you find your bread not buttered well in Dubai, find some different butter elsewhere.

[Immigrant]

Guys I am really sorry for your situation BUT honestly to say for those who came from CRJ/ERJ , move into RHS of 777 and LHS just in 5 or iven 7 years is that so bad??? :confused:
Point me pls. where is better??? :rolleyes:
I’ll puck mi bags right away. :p

I personally think that lucky what you got, just turned your brains a little bit,

look around you, for the rest of the World, the World that you actually escaped. :ugh:

Sorry for spell and bitter

[411A]

Couldn't agree more, Dune ....the folks that joined as First Officers (hoping for a quick Command)were just plain stupid...especially if they were Commanders in their prior company.

An old axiom in the middle east, true yesterday, true today....'Join the airline at the position that you desire, not which you hope to attain.'

A simple concept to understand.:rolleyes:

To those that did not heed Dune's advice...tough luck.
You were warned.

[Saltaire]

Plansmack,

Glad your taking it so well, but most DEC's are not that old and do not have grown children. Have a look at the seniority list, how many years left does one born in say '65 have left? Not sure how old his kids are, but he very likely does not have grown children. Nor does he have widebody experience, they were hiring many DEC's recently from 737 to 320...so much for the vast widebody experience and older gentlemen candidate they touted from the beginning of the program.

They do what they want and as always, timing is everything...

Having said this, EK is a pretty good place to hid for now

[411A]

You know historically etc. EK Also advertised extensively in flight international spruiking the fast track your career-quick command line.


Yes, I know, A380-800 driver, but one must remember (true in past days, and now, certainly)...airline managements in the middle east lie like a rug.
IE: if you don't have it in a firm/binding contract, many times the concerned individual will find himself firmly up the creek without a paddle.
In spades.
Get my drift?

[BigJetDog]

Would have been nice if you had also predict the World Financial Collapse, and the MEL incident. :D

Emirates was growing like crazy, and their was no way to predict that they would stop the expansion for the next 5 to 10 years.

Things cannot go on indefinite not even the growth at EK, but most FO that joined in the last 3 years predicted that the growth would at least last an other 5 to 10 years.

I don't have a problem with the fact that all upgrades are delayed due to the Financial situation (that is part of life), but to except a DEC with 1,500 hrs on an EK A/C Type and someone trained by the EK training department for the past 3 years needs 3,000 hrs is an insult to our pilot group. This in my mind indicates that EK does not trust their own training department.

[TheyCallMeTrinity]

Ah, the pleasure of upgrading after 7 years. Lucky me. Except that as a previous RJ Captain I was making more then I am now. If you include the "free house" that becomes the only advantage to working here. Oh but then there is the school fees which off set the house benefit. I have to pay 80,000DHS annually for my kids. This is my out of pocket expense. I have one more kid then EK allows. However, I knew about all of that before joining, what I didn't know about was the changing contract that would keep me from upgrading. Upgrade was the only reason I came here and will be the reason I leave here. Oh god, I have to spend the next 5 years asking if it's "ok" if I use the toilet.

[taiar]

Not gonna get too bent out of shape over this...

Its all about supply and demand... At this point in time, supply is more than demand. Once the industry and economy picks up, things will change.

We all know how fast things change in this industry... so take it easy

Signed :ouch:

[Wiley]

EK has certainly come a long way from the days when one (now) captain clocked a large swathe of his required 2000 hours total flying time before switching to the LHS by spending almost his whole pay every month flying up and down the UAE coast in a single engine Piper.

True story.

[Oblaaspop]

I agree that this is sh1t, and I am very disappointed for the F/O's here. Not all will be affected, but the guys who joined with the CRJ etc being the largest/heaviest type they have flown, the biggest rub is going to be the (hidden) fact that they now need 4000 hrs HARD TIME. This being time on jets over 55t.

With the best will in the world, this is going to take over 5.5 years to achieve here at around 750 hrs per year........ I do feel for you!

But it might be worth mentioning (as someone on a previous post did), that its all about supply and demand. This is the story today, while the management ride off into the sunset every night on their High Horses, safe in the knowledge that the have over a 'billion' applicants on file...... That's this year, give it 18 months guys, and yet again it will go full circle. That's aviation!

Don't forget, in May last year, we had around 20 suitable applicants on file for interview... That's why we got a splendid bonus and a decent pay rise, this year we have 100 times that amount on file, so we got nothing. Just remember the company is clearly making hay while the sun shines...... This will not always be the case.

Good luck chaps, and don't blame the skippers..... Its not our fault, and we are on your side!:ok:

[whyfly]

I think this FCI is for the ATSB sorry so many have suffer

[Saltaire]

I think it reads 4000 hard time, of which at least 1000 in seat so 5.5 years looks about right....not great but EK is still a good port in a storm. Live your life in the meantime, don't get too wrapped up in all this, things will swing back again in a couple years.

[Kennytheking]

Actually it is going to take me closer to 8 years to achieve the 4000 hours hard time......

I do roughly 75% of my flying on the 340 and that is mostly augmented. 750 hours a year right now is more than I fly....they are offering leave left, right and center because they have too many F/O's on the bus. This means that I am doing closer to 600 hours a year. Given that 75% of this is factored by, on average, 60%(split between 4 pilot and 3 pilots flights), gives me less than 500 hard hours per year.

8 Years is what it takes a cadet to upgrade, so in one foul swoop, they have consigned the 10 000 hours I joined with to the trash bin and made my experience level the same as a cadet.

fcnts!

[GoreTex]

there were zillion post here that the upgrade time will take longer as bigger EK gets, its not rocket science, if you join now or even last year EK has to get another 100 planes, minus DEC's minus the locals who will have the hours then.

the upgrade will take at least 8 to 10 years if you join now, my advise realize your losses and run if you can get another job, its not worth to sit it out because when you move to the left seat the LHS conditions will be totally eroded.

[CAVnotOK]

So, any ideas on how many F/Os are now deemed as suitable on the seniority list??

[145qrh]

I would hazard a guess that none of the guys scheduled for upgrade this year will have 3000hrs in EK...so what happens next?

On another thread someone mentioned he was about to be interviewed for 330DEC, don't know if was a wind up merchant or it was lost in translation, but it has a ring of truth to it now.

According to VP- Rumour Control the change comes from on high because of MEL, I think that both guys in the seats of that flight would still have there, after all it doesn't change requirements to be a f/o.

[whossorrynow]

Tim Clark said this to the Gulf News last week:

Emirates' fleet will expand from 126 passenger aircraft now to 196 planes by 2018

The complete article is here:
Gulfnews: Emirates chief is confident of staying profitable (http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Aviation/10321370.html)

So, an expected net growth of 70 passenger aircraft in the next nine years.
Let's say 8 upgrades per aircraft, so that'll be 560 upgrades.
But there's close to 1200 F/Os at Emirates already.
So with Clarks forecast (optimistic?) expansion plan 640+ current EK F/Os could still be in the right seat in the year 2018.
Do the math(s).

Mandatory retirements on age? Sure, there'll be some.
Check the seniority list, around 30 pensioners leaving EK in the next nine years.

DECs? Oh yes, there'll be Direct Entry Captains. A lot more than 30.

Mass resignations? Maybe... it's the only hope for EKs F/Os.

Earlier this week on another thread a few people suggested 5-7 years to upgrade at EK for new joiners. Maybe they can back that forecast up with some objective data, I'd like to see it. I predict sometime between 12 years and never for upgrade for new joiners at EK.

[ekpilot]

Who can tell time to upgrade now? Nobody, simple fact. Just depends when they change the rule again. For better or for worst. I go for second choice. Because like mentioned before so many seats are available and joining now can be a long way to the left seat. But we all know that. Right time right place. Now, wrong time, wrong place. Next is to lower minimum experience to attract the most motivated pilots willing to fly for free forever in the right seat.

Keep Discovering :ok:

[fatbus]

Add to that @30 upgrades this year and no airplanes next year 2010/2011, the 3-4 year pilots could be looking at another 2-3 years depending on fleet. AirBus being the better one, backlog of 777 fo's is going to be hugh. What are the orders on the 777 not options beyond 2010?

[411A]

'Tis a pity the the so-called 'management' at EK could get it (apparently) all so wrong, whereas in a new (generally speaking) company they had the opportunity to get it right, with regard to crew manning and selection.
Amateur hour, seems to me.

They would not be the first...nor the last.:sad:

[Payscale]

I do agree with the A380 upgrade policy. It not right to get your first command on the Flagship bird. First of all there would be loads of 28 year old A380 commander with only 6000 hours in mostly cruise. I would not be comfortable knowing that a very inexperienced commander was bringing it down on a contaminated runway at night in max crosswind in ie Kangerlusuaq.
The pilots on the other fleets would not be able to aspire to the fat one if they so choose.
Yes the company promised..... if you believe that.....:rolleyes:

[Illhavethechicken]

In my humble opinion it seems a lot of people are taking these changes at EK rather personally. I’m willing to bet that the powers that be would be hard-pushed to name but a hand-full of the FO’s they are persecuting or the Dec’s they are supposedly favouring. It all boils down to a question of economics. To seat a Dec on the left will always be cheaper and quicker than upgrading. Does it make it right? Well off course not, but it’s not just EK as we all know. It’s an industry option that airlines will exercise as and when they see fit.
What’s apparent too is in most compromised FOs opinion is that potential DEC’s all over the World are just waiting for EK to lower their requirements so they can sneak in and take their jobs. Actually, the job with EK is not for everybody, and in considering it, I’d like to think one would approach the option from many angles, in much the same way as one would consider joining EY, GF, QR etc. One would look at the pro’s and con’s.., (no pun intended..!), and decide. Not simply to jump in head first because it’s EK.
I see too a situation where some EK guys are busy blasting the company for being so bad, but subconsciously acknowledging that it’s still good enough for everybody else to be trying to get in and steal their Command..? Contrary to popular belief, there are some of us who are happy where we are and really have no interest in joining EK...for the moment anyway, but should things change, be sure I’ll also be sending in my CV for the DEC position with no regards to what any of you haters think. Does that make me bad? Well I’ve yet to meet someone who turned down a job because they felt guilty about all the people in the queue he’d jumped! (..if you’re out there, please let me know).
While I’m here, too many times I hear that DEC’s don’t know anything once on line and the FO saves the day! Well I’m sure if any of you were to join my company, you’d be just as lost as I would be in yours initially. If you happen to know something better than I do in the company you’ve been in for the past 3 years, it makes me more comfortable to be flying with you, but I’m not convinced that’s a reason why you should be sitting where I am! Let’s be fair Guys. “Don’t hate the players, hate the Game”.
Company policy does not decide when one is ready to be a good commander let’s get that straight. It is just that. Company policy. All it does is dictate when and how they choose to whatever they please. Next year they may decide they need 4000 total time again for command, or maybe, no more circling approaches to be conducted...etc. It doesn’t the make it wrong now or right then, it will just be a different stance.
In the end, the fast command is basically being given command with less hours than you’d be expected to otherwise have in the industry ideal, correct me if I’m wrong; Hence less experience. Having not been at EK previously, would it be fair to say that a DEC might have actually served his time in the trenches a lot longer than you ever plan to and may actually deserve the offer? Hours and experience are what matter in aviation. Everything else pretty much falls into place after that, quite neatly too! (...at times :hmm:)
So please...enough with the conspiracy theories. Speedy upgrade wishes to all! It’s business, never personal, “and that’s all I’ve got to say about that!” :ok:

[Jakedog]

Gents ,This is long overdue.Most CRJ intakes have been of dubious quality.Ask the trainers,ask the long time Capt's.

[captainsmiffy]

....ooooh! That's contentious! Luckily for me, then, I flew an ERJ!

The way it was told to me by several trainers and captains was that it was more specific than merely CRJ drivers....don't lump us all together with crass generalisations.

Hope that you are prepared for the fallout which is almost certainly to come, you probably deserve it!

[Payscale]

...and it may very well be to cater for this lack of foresight, when the CRJ guys were recruited, the the older FO now suffer.
NOTHING wrong with a CRJ pilot from Milwaukee, but its just a different type of OPS than flying a A330 to africa. Id be lost in Milwaukee too, if I were to change.
I doubt this FCI had anything to do with MEL. The Capt on that flight has leaps of different type of experiences in aviation and 4-5 years in EK.
I still think it fine that the A380 FO come back to the A330. Then there will be career progression for older and fatter (like me) A330 pilots, and the A380 FOs will be able to look forward to returning to the mother ship.

[PositiveRate876]

No need to discount people's diverse flying experience. The FCI's author already did.

Flying the A330 to Africa vs. flying the CRJ to Milwaukee is comparing apples to oranges. The CRJ driver is most likely flying his 6th sector, with an FO with 300 hours landing on ice in a crosswind. After 8 hours layover he'll do it again.

The A330 driver is flying with a highly qualified colleague, and eating pretty good on the flight. Yes there's self-ATC, and the ILS is out, and the runway was last painted in 1946. But on the bright side, there's the beer waiting at the pool.

Hour for hour, which is more valuable?
"Hard time" or easy time?

[Flying Spag Monster]

The only thing different about different experience is that the experience is different....

EK pilots appear to want to eat their living as well as their dead. It wasn't that long ago that 146 pilots were the brunt of similar unflattering remarks regarding experience. It has always perplexed me a bit why pilots place so much emphasis on another pilot's time in a 'wide body' or with 'glass' etc as to suggest that these criteria were a simple litmus to the standards that could be expected from them. I see no reason for this, to me an aeroplane is a cockpit with a door and wings. Are the differences between flying an RJ and a wide body so vast that they are un recoverable? Those that remember the policy change that came out after the GF accident at BAH will also remember the first cut had an hours minimum of 9000! And that was following another operator's accident, not EK's. This new policy has all the same hallmarks, the top airline m'ment would have asked for a new policy as they saw that as a way of reacting to MEL and being seen to do something about it. Right or wrong that is how they operate and we know (or should know) this is a typical response.

For those that are affected by this new change take some hope from the fact that the 9000 hrs limit got watered down pretty quickly.

[CAVnotOK]

You sound like you know what you are talking about a little too well....... hence defending the RJ guys.

I think one of the things the FCI is trying to achieve is to make sure the guys becoming Capt have more relevant wide body international experience.

It is extremely unfair, because EK was willing to hire everybody on equal terms when they needed drivers, but once again the Airline is showing it's true colours in regards to who it cares about. NO-ONE.

[fatbus]

FSM is exactly right, this is a reaction to MEL and come from way way up , above the flt ops level. There was the 9000 hrs after BAH, the the reaction to BA 146 ,the 55T reqd and now this, I think some of it has to do with the ULR flying/bunk time( not enough sectors or seat time) . 6 years ago there was very little long range and no ULR, a third guy on very few flt's, PER is the only one I can think of. Will it change maybe, but dont think so.

[pool]

... to me an aeroplane is a cockpit with a door and wings ...

Well, then a 152 jockey can simply do a pelesys transition to the 380 and -> boum < - … he’s as good a pilot as any one else, as size and hours seemingly don’t matter that much. Unfortunately field experience shows otherwise. I have witnessed a lot of transitions from RJs to 320/737 and even single aisles to heavies that went wrong. Not that such pilots are not as good and never will be as good, it’s simply a different ballgame, those who do not admit to that mostly have a biased agenda.
It is all about the transition and training program. No one can jump through these loops without. We all agree that EKs training is inadequate, too short, too stereotyped. No wonder therefore that RJ jockeys and single aisle DECs don’t deliver. It’s about different operation, different environment and different energy management, topped by different (put very politely) SOPs and a very heterogeneous mentality.
Increasing the required experience is a welcome measure looking at the weekly reports! They are sometimes hair-raising and speak for themselves. It however depends on how such increase is implemented and here EK fails to impress, as always. It does not go to train the FOs we already hired to a sufficient level , it will only speed up upgrades of locals who have a extremely narrow range of experience and take in more DECs who lack regional and EK experience.

[5star]

:suspect:
Reading a British newspaper the other day... Here's a nice one:

Is it more than a coincidence that apparently a lot of TCAS' buddies are being pushed into retirement from BA and exactly these guys will fulfill the new DEC criteria...

[pool]

First argument:


I think one could argue that having become familiar with the 380s system to go back to the 330, having lost the experience on it, would actually be more dangerous than doing a conversion from right to left


Second argument:


The "new" FO on the 380 has flown extensively to some armpit in India (ins. by. auth.: on a 330). I still don't see your reasons for excluding right to left seat 380 transitions


One excludes the other, so decide.

The shifting right to left on the biggies has been defended similarly by all biggie-FOs throughout all periods. Most of the very same guys, after having gone back to the base-fleet for upgrade, later admit it would have been a mistake (myself included).
EK has always had a LH structure with the rare and very sought after subcontinental t/a every now and then, especially for the senior FOs who could bid away from the latter. We know that experience comes with flight cycles and not with hours in cruise and the bunk. Therefore a direct upgrade to the whale is not a good idea (as it hasn't been for 777).
If HH was really concerned with increasing standards and safety, he would grab the opportunity with FlyDubai and have all their captains fed through EK FOs. But that would mean some locals had to fly a single aisle! Inconceavable and therefore traded vs. safety.

[Ketek400]

A380 Driver

I do so agree with you!!!

At least we know the rules change all the time and they are only rules when it suites them. Hopefully we get a transition upgrade which will mean we have flown everything EK offers!!!!

But the easiest upgrade would be on the 380 by far! Easiest I have flown by far!

[Payscale]

That all fine and dandy, but see it for a long term. Most A380 pilots will be recruited externally in the future, as it is cheaper. then they would also get their command on the aircraft. Id be a closed circuit. Id like to fly the thing before retirement. Your model would preclude that, hence I am not for it. I also dont agree with you comment that the FOs are highly experienced.....Look at how many ex cadets sit on it. Would you like them to get commands on it. Bring it to Toronto in the winter with 30 knots gusting cross wind and snow storm... while your family is sitting on 109F (:ooh:)

I welcome you back to the A330. Get the left seat experience, and then go back if you choose. Normal career progression...

Remember ho owns the company...and the country for that matter. Expect changes. The FOM is a live document that will change daily. Dont trust what they say. Dont say no to a command. EVER.

[radial090]

Just heard before the FCI there were over 200 airbus fo's that were ELIGIBLE for upgrade, after the FCI the number is more like 20 with around 10 being ex cadet.

[radial090]

The problem with rhs to lhs seat transitions on the 380 is not operational, it is political.
The international press would be all over any accident involving the 380 by any operator, any where in the world.
If the captain involved in a accident with the 380 had just been upgraded and it was his first command I think the media backlash would be bad for that operator.
As for the operation of the 380.I do not operate it but I really wonder is it much more difficult to manage the a fully loaded 777-300ER with 440 pax aboard?
So then should you be limited to the smaller 777's for 1500 hours before you take the 300ER out for a spin?
Personally if the training is competent then your crews that have passed the training should be competent, which ever aircraft they upgrade on.

[emratty]

Certainly an expensive mistake for the F/O's who moved to the 380. I am sure it is an easy aircraft to fly however as payscale says it should be a career progression available to 330/340 and 777 captains:ok: The F/O's on the 380 are not that experienced, there are many cadets and regional jet pilots on it. A380-800 driver there is no shame in being a captain on the 330 you just may have to change your name to EX A380-800 driver.

[donpizmeov]

380 driver...(something fishy with that name I reckon.)

I feel ya pain brother, but I think you may be arguing a mute point. Facts are no, and i believe that to mean less than zero, upgrades for the 2010/2011 fin year. That means those fellas biting at the bit for the seat change now, that haven't been notified of a course date already,will be delayed till then. Count the numbers, your command on the 330 will still happen in seniority order, even with the 3 month delay in right seat. A command is a command, and the pay the same.

Now the real problem. Taking the hard time requirement into account (and the FOM says all your time with Emirates means hard time, pay cuts and utility cuts proving the point I guess), would you not get your command faster on the 330 than the 380? So I am thinking regardless how stupid this new requirement may appear, for you to wait on the 380 to acquire the hours, if a command on this type was available, would delay you more so than your peers on the other fleets. So jump to another fleet as soon as possible mate. That bunk is going to slow you down. Not as it should be, but the way it is (at the moment).

The fellas joining on the Boeing now that will have to do there command on the 350 (when and if it ever appears), will really have a hard time!!!.

Harley riders are queer,


Don

[pool]

I really feel for you guys, believe me.

On the other hand pilots will make up every possible argument for their own benefit. In that we do not differ from the managers, all in the same business, unfortunately.
I would bet my next years bonus that if suddenly a lot of 330 commands would pop up the older 380 FOs would find heaploads of arguments why they should get them first and if 380 upgrades would happen earlier they would find another load to underline why they should get them before more senior 777 guys, etc. etc., it's all a matter of perspective.

I was simply pointing out industry experience that sustains the normal way up, meaning from smaller equippment with more sectors to heavier ones with less sectors. If not concerned personally, most pilots would advocate that for many very good reasons. I personally think that EK suffers a tiny little bit because it could not offer such a carreer.
It has been mentioned by others that JNB and MEL, the two close ones at EK, have been crewed by home grown - EK carreer model pilots. This is by no means proof that upgrade directly on a big one is unsafe, but it does not prove it is as good as a conventional carreer as well.
Just food for thought.

[Flying Spag Monster]

Pool I also heard those crews were left handed.... I recognise this is a rumour forum but even rumours should have some thin element of plausability about them. That last statement wasn't very well thought out was it.
I remember it was suggested that the first FOs upgrading R to L on the 'big' 330 should upgrade on the 310 first. Seems like the 330 is no longer big...
(Yes I'm a 146,E/CRJ,direct entry cadet home grown career model (what ever that is) pilot from a 152)

[B. Bonga]

So what happens to FO's who joined EK with heavy sack time (abv 55t)and have more than 4k hrs ? Do they have to serve "hard time" as well till they have 3k hrs on EK type or they are being lumped together with other jocks who don't have heavy stick experience ?:uhoh:

[Duh]

After all the years of reading this same argument over and over. The answer to all and I mean both sides of the argument is Simple. Actually elementary, it's called S * & I % ^ $ Y

I'll let you wise men figure it out.

[CheikhUR6]

Hi all
Does F/O joining EK at this time worth it ?
how long for LHS with new rules? what"s EK DEC policy for years coming ?
Can you live with 3000$/months ( loan ) in Dubai ?

[CAVnotOK]

Read the entire thread........ the answers are there in clear print. Good Luck.

You can survive, but don't come for a command.

[pool]

FSM

read all presented arguments with correct tenses, not randomly through them.
Unless you want to prove my above point -> QED.

[Flying Spag Monster]

Pool I don't have an issue with your other presented arguments, regardless of the tense. It is with the inclusion at the end of a previous post regarding the JNB and MEL crews, or more specifically the experience source of the captains involved. I will observe you attributed these original comments to other posters, but the fact that you saw fit to repeat them and indeed offer them as "food for thought" indicated you believed there was some rational conclusion to be drawn from them. Otherwise why post it at all? There is nothing to be concluded from that statement, it is random and speculative at the extreme and speaks more about the poster than the targeted subjects.

[whine - red]

3000 hrs EK I understand - but are they saying that 1000 elsewhere are more beneficial?

[5star]

I'm afraid you opened a can of worms with your last comment.
There a lot more examples where not-so-home-grown DEC's where involved.

[captainsmiffy]

Bloody hell! Just done the maths! Despite 10 years in command in my previous job (MTOW 21000kg) and 10600 hours under my belt, I only have 1000 'hard-time' hours and thus need ANOTHER 3000 hours at EK before command. At my present rate of flying that is nearly 6 years still to go! That is 8 years in EK as an F/O from what was purported at interview to be 3 years!! That is going to be a lot of KHIs and BLRs and DOHs!!!

Stunned! So a cadet starting tomorrow will be in as good a shape as me in 6 years - in effect my experience now laid to waste?! Am I still considered to be at the stage where they are concerned over the mass of the aircraft where I am concerned? Are my skills that dodgy?! (If you recognise me, don't answer that one!)

[Mister Warning]

That's before you factor in the inevitable DEC's and the one year of no deliveries and and and....

[Orangewing]

No maths required, smiffy. The way I see it, even if you have 10,000 hrs on a type above the magic 51t prior to joining ek you still have to do the 3000hrs within the company no matter how many "hard" hours you have prior.
Which means a lot of night turnarounds and as little augmenting as possible..... As you say, not exactly what I was promised at interview either :{

[McGreaser]

This is baffling to say the least !:confused: So why the 4k hr (with tonnage restrictions) requirement on joining when down the line it means diddly squat in your career advancement ? Then suffice to say the turbo prop lads should also be recruited coz everybody will have to do another 3k on hrs on EK type before they are considered legible for command.

Does this also mean, am pretty sure by the new requirements more than half the guys who got their upgrade in EK would be unqualified to captain EK planes since they didn't have the 3k hrs on EK prior to upgrade:confused:

Also why train FO's to seat on LHS for augmenting (if they are considered too green by the new requirements):ugh::ugh:

............am l asking too many questions ?:}:}

Am sure many FO's have valuable experience which is being tossed into the wind be it CRJ, RJ, ex boeing or ex airbus or whatever metallic contraption one flew before joining EK:8

[sanddude]

30 upgrades on the bus this financial year. Looks like, that from the next 30 guys on the seniority list ,about 10 to 15 don,t have the hours!

so what now?. Me guess this is the same on the Boring.

Have they already started the recruitment of DEC?. How are the supossed to fill the seats?:suspect:

Then again, DEC needs time on EK type as well. Don,t think there are many typed guys around who are interested. Not even the yanks, since it looks like the market is gonna pick up soon over there

[Overtimer997]

Where did you get that information from A380-800Driver?? It is not written down anywhere??

[Flying Spag Monster]

McGreaser you are not asking too many questions you are asking the correct ones. I still believe this came from high and suggest to anyone that is affected like you are to write to AS about it. Make a point of how it totally negates any previous experience, the very experience that got you the job in the first place. Management love data, if you can show them the facts it may help them with their arguement up the chain. (Assuming they are argueing of course)

[Overtimer997]

I hope your right but I doubt that it is the case.

[Aircav]

A380 Dude, you are being selectively optimistic.

Read the whole thing again:

3.5.3.4 Upgrade policy for A380 First Officers [E]
◊
Eligible A380 first officers will be considered for upgraded on the Airbus Fleet (A330) aircraft provided the following requirements are met:
��
The Eligibility requirements as per FOM 3.5.3.
��
Minimum 6000 hours total time.
��
Minimum 4000 hours Hard Time.
��
Possession of a valid UAE ATPL.
��
Minimum of 2 years (4 years for direct entry First Officer) from the date of successful completion of initial PPC on the A380 and a total of 6,000 hrs before transfer to the A330 on the Right Hand Seat.
��
Minimum of three months experience after the PPC as an A330 First Officer before upgrade course commencement date on the A330


So yup you do need the 4000hrs, anyway you have to do 2 years in EK min, with some hours requirements, on another fleet before you can even go to the A380 as an FO, then another 2 years on it before even being considered for upgrade IF you have the hours.

Some people are reading EK type to mean in EK, my interpretation is that it means B777, A330/A340 time anywhere. See DEC requirements number 3. Anyone have a counter argument?

Keep Discovering:ugh:

[Overtimer997]

I agree.
Here is a thought. Seeing as the 380 is super heavy maybe the 380F/O's should get a double credit for their hrs on it toward upgrade?? Make any sense?? Like everything here it does not but what the heck maybe they will buy into it!!!

[CAVnotOK]

Aircav,

I believe you have it 100% correct.
Pretty hard to dispute something written in plain English. However, there have been isolated cases of people having trouble understanding plain English in EK.

Open for interpretation!

[5star]

For once I think their' FCI is comprehensive and quite clear.

Did not find any lapses or info missing. The only real surprise is the hard requirement which might affect some FO's. However if the economy stays flat, it will not matter anyway as there will be no upgrade slots in FY 10-11. If we go up, then I expect them to go for massive DECs.

For FO's on the 380 : they need the 4000 hours hard time as well as mentioned before and it's perfectly ok if you had some of these hours BEFORE joining. The rest of the normal upgrade requirements will be fullfilled automatically I think (eg. >3 years in the company before upgrading).


The question is: How long will it take before TCAS screws his own policy by employing DECs without the necessary requirements? :rolleyes:
Well... read the first paragrah of the FCI again. Did your opinion ever matter over here?

[5star]

Hmm...You should know the company by now. Everything is a puzzle and for you the mission is to find ALL the pieces. The point E in the table refers nicely back to 3.5.3.4 of the FCI.

If YOU are affected and don't believe it, better find out quickly. From my experience things NEVER work in your favor over here in case of doubt.

[Schnowzer]

If you join EK today you'll have 1000+ F/Os ahead of you. Recruitment has slowed and productivity has increased so maybe you'll end up with 800+ hrs/year. To meet the 3000hr requirement will take 3 1/2 years or so. I can't see us taking the 1000 pilots required in the next 5 years to have the hours timetable match the promotion slot. Bottom line is that EK is becoming a maturer airline, the economic situation is crap and although EK are getting extra aircraft right now it won't continue at the advertised order rate otherwise the company will go bust. My guess is that a few will be disadvantaged upfront but that 3000/4000hrs hard time will be only a small component of the wait to command just like everywhere else.

Now I might be wrong but I cannot see us averaging 330 pilots/year for the next 3 years particularly when we are getting only 50 or so this year.

[GoreTex]

smiffy,
6 years for a widebody command is not bad, how long would it take you in the US?
if EK had RJ's you could apply as a DEC but unfortunately EK doesn't have any.
it will take the cadets much more than 6 years to get their command, but when they get it they know the plane, the routes and the company better than anybody else.

did 2 G/A last week and about 5-6 within the last year, all with former RJ captains at the controls, every time because they couldnt meet the stabilization criteria.

[Bring Back The Biff]

Goretex,

What exactly was it that you were doing while these RJ guys were 'setting up' the unstable approach?

The concept of operation in a multi-crew aircraft is that the pilot not flying provides support to the pilot flying.

This includes recognizing the development of an unsafe/unstable approach and providing assistance/information/guidance to avoid it...

[wizard1]

Really!! Suprised about the ga's. Maybe get in there a bit earlier? I'm paid to get the thing there, not to train FO's and as soon as I am out of my comfort zone I say so pretty darn quick.

[captainsmiffy]

Goretex,

Ordinarily, maybe, 6 years isn't bad to a WB command and I can't answer for how long it would take in the US cos i'm not a citizen! I do, however, object when arbitrary rules are written after the event that suddenly require me to do almost three times the RHS time when many others before me haven't needed to do this. We were all attracted out here by a certain set of terms and conditions and it is galling to see these being eroded almost daily.

Yes, the energy thing needs to be learned and assimilated with these machines and EVERY approach needs careful preparation and planning; yes, I have had maybe 2 or 3 approaches that were getting 'interesting' but a combination of recognising that it was going wrong, a lack of 'flight deck ego' and proper crew co-ordination meant that none of these have resulted in either go-arounds or 'tea and coffee with no biscuits' in the chief pilots office! Surely this is what a 3 to 4 year (as advertised and sold) RHS apprenticeship is all about? Otherwise why stipulate all of the various experience requirements in the first place? Given 20 years plus in aviation and 10 years in command etc etc - exactly how many years is it to be before I am considered 'trustworthy' flying aeroplanes over 55 tonnes?

I accept that the economic slowdown has indeed delayed my command upgrade chances; what is anathema to me is that when the opportunities arise, will I be in a position to be allowed to take advantage of them, all because I did not possess 4000 hours hard-time? What is so magic about 4000 hours more when you have (a) got in excess of 10000 hours and (b) the last 3 years would have been spent flying over 55 tonnes?

I am still in the middle of my 'apprenticeship' and I am the first to admit that I have lots to learn - but I am learning, and fast!! What I really do object to is people in this outfit who lump all 'RJ Pilots' together and tar them with the same brush! We are not all 'aviation pariah'; flying short haul, multi-sector days in regional jets in the UK was demanding work requiring a good standard of airmanship. I strive to bring my experiences forward with me and to learn all of the time. At some point you have to stop looking at what a person has done and start taking a look at what they are doing. An aeroplane is, in essence, still an aeroplane - no matter how much it weighs. Learn where it will bite you and develop strategies to avoid/overcome this. Then get on with the career. Why all this bloody mystique over masses and masses of 'hard-time'?

Rant over! Guess that was good to get off my chest! Next....

[captainsmiffy]

Goretex

Sorry, forgot to mention - have PNF'd 2 GAs and had the Captain catch the cabin up in the descent (despite multiple prompts from me about it being way past TOD, thus requiring a high ROD) in the last 6 or 7 months - all with highly experienced WB captains, none of whom heeded my concerns early enough.

So, you see, it is perhaps wrong to generalise! You operate aeroplaes daily and these things happen and you fill your 'experience bucket' a little higher....but don't generalise that these things are all down to 'RJ pilots'. Mistakes are not their exclusive domain.

[Panther 88]

Good one Smiffy. Some of my most challenging flying was in smaller narrow body aircraft. Here, seems 90% of our flying is "cleared for the ILS, call established". Of course there are the exceptions and some crews have had some difficulty.

Now Goretex, what in the world were you doing? Have your head up your third brown eye? C'mon man, it all starts with the very first briefing..."drop the gear at 3000 ft. if you have to, to be stabilized". Whatever.

This place is getting more like Cathay everyday. I benefited from the previous policy, but this is a bit much when decisions were made on "promises" told. Economic slowdowns are one thing, but some arbitrary flight hour number.....I will take an guy with 10,000 hours with a varying background in lousy weather conditions half the year over some pilot that has flown ONE aircraft, long haul only, with less than a quarter of the approaches and landings some RJ guy has.

[mensaboy]

I have flown with lots of ex RJ guys and yes, a few are on a steep learning curve. But for the most part, they are good guys with good attitudes and that is all anyone can ask of them. Emirates hired them and according to EK, all F/O's are deemed suitable and they predict a successful 'apprenticeship' to command.

So what do these new rules signify? EK now deems a large percentage of F/O's as unsuitable for command. Either EK got it wrong in hiring some people or they have a hidden agenda.

If some people are struggling, then Training should identify the individuals and provide adequate training and supervision to rectify any weaknesses. Clearly that is beyond the capabilities of EK so they lump everyone together and use the lowest common denominator. It is piss poor management in my opinion. Almost every single F/O I have ever flown with, would do fine as a Captain (some better than others of course) There are a few oddballs who should never sit in the LH seat, but that is statistically inevitable.

The years ahead, for present and future F/O's at EK, looks pretty bleak. Just another reason to seriously review the desirability of this employer.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Goretex Habibi, you are not exactly doing what you are paid to do, are you. 2 G/A in a week, you must be unlucky :ouch:

If you are in command be assertive and take control if the guy in the other seat is making a right hash of an approach. I have had to do this twice with RJ pilots from the colonies. Sorted it out then, handed back control.

Never done a G/A in my 5 years here habib, no tea and biccies either :cool:

SyB :zzz:

[alibubu]

A 380 driver.

Im afraid you are wrong about the 3000 hrs on ek type for A380 f/os. Just checked with the boss and he confirmed with AAR that it applies to us as well i.e A380 f/os

[Khaosai]

Hi,

there will be a few British Airways guys/girls who will be close to retirement age and might be tempted with a redundancy package from there due to the curent situation.

They would then be in the correct age bracket and have the required experience on an EK aircraft type enabling them to join as a DEC !.

[fatbus]

Do you really think they need DEC's in 2011?

[ekpilot]

Good and bad F/O's and Captains. Normal in all companies. But what is serious at EK is that again last week a Captain got called in for tee and biscuits because he was reported by a less than average SFI F/O. Actually i also know an other Captain that had similar story with the same SFI F/O. Did not end up in the office but the same name came up in a debriefing. It's division time. People will start mistrusting each other. It's a mess. Safety is not a priority in the flight decks when people are reporting without telling the other party. Very sad and unprofessional. If you have something to say speak out in the name of safety. The good news is that The Captain felt like he received some support from the company when the F/O had to answer questions in front of the Captain about is report. I think he did not expect to be called in as well. It just shows you how below average this guys is.

True story i swear!

Keep Discovering:ok:

[fatbus]

All the sfi's are going to quit anyways

[ATSU]

This "culture" of trainers "reporting" pilots but not listing said complaints on the appropriate training forms or (maybe even) debriefing the trainee seems to be a new phenomenon at EK. It is my understanding that an individual can get reasonable scores and comments on a training (if you can call what EK does "training":E) session and subsequently the trainer either writes an email, calls the office or walks in with new, additional negative comments. This reporting culture is completely out-of-hand.

With regard to training I am not surprised that this sort of thing is tolerated. If you get a chance and feel like doing it look up the staff numbers and seniority of the CFIAB, the deputy CFIAB, the CFIB and the deputy CFIB. I never realised that this was considered acceptable in Her Majesty's RAF which apparently is a requirement for an office job in training.

[Saltaire]

I agree ATSU, a bit supicious with all hired in the same batch. Some good CRM there...

A senior TRE rolled his eyes to me as to the said appointments a year back. I'm supposed consult this guy who I just trained for TRI last year? Ya. It's a function of a rapidly growing immature airline. Fortunately most trainers are very good but some should have never been given the opportunity.

[Gregale]

"All the sfi's are going to quit anyways"

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Believe those guys have been well and truly sha!#t$*d :hmm:

[ekpilot]

The report was done on a normal line flight. The worst is that he was augmenting the captain he reported. Very sad := Man is from the land of the fries and good cheese. (Alteon man)

Be careful out there!

Keep Discovering:ok:

[airbus757]

Back to the subject. I am guessing that the sudden fall in demand for new Captains at EK is at the heart of this new "policy" regarding promotion to Captain. Over the next few years we can expect to see a huge drop in upgrades at EK.

Keeping that in mind, it appears the powers that be have decided to take the more experienced F/Os. They simply come up with some managers idea of experience, set up a policy, and let the chips fall where they may. It is as simple as that.

Now before someone says yeah, but what about a guy who has this experience, or this guy who has that many hours doing whatever, they simply do not have the manpower to go through every case in detail and decide who qualifies and who doesn't. The result is that some guys who are more than capable WILL get bypassed.

On a case by case basis it is definatly unfair but if you have any ideas about being treated fair at EK then think again. The managers of Flight Ops have the same view of its pilots as the managers of catering have about the price of bananas.

They do not care. The terms of our employment will continue to degrade to the point where they have trouble crewing their shiny jets, then will start to improve until there is no more trouble.

Bananas my friends, Bananas!

7

[fatbus]

Gregale,

Unfortunately most are good guys and do some good work. This is a case of a couple guys with big ego's in the wrong place,but with the new policy I'm sure all will quit in order to get the hours for upgrade and the bad apples will be no longer SFI's and will not become TRI's because of the said problems.

[Rotaiva]

I fail to see why someone should now 'strive' for the new command goalposts?????

To change your lifestyle strategy just to suit the scum-pany's current goalposts is simply naive. Every shred of evidence indicates they will not be the same in a given time frame. To strive to work more hours at the sufferance of your family/recreational lifestyle is a fool's errand.

You would simply be capitulating to their (read AAR) 'fire-fighting' mis-management strategy.

[5star]

Holy smoke ekpilot. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Not THE guy who came from AF? Saw him at work during a session. The biggest ZERO I have ever seen in training.

This just shows again that our recruitment selection is not flawless.
How he got in EK is a mystery to me.

Wouldn't surprise me if was him btw.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Are we talking about the guy with the unique hairdo habibs???

SyB :zzz:

[White Knight]

Well now - I used to fly RJs and I ain't ever had to do a G/A for an unstable approach... Never had an unstable approach:ok: Although one of my F/Os who was 20 years 310,300,747 managed to completely screw an approach with the result he was told to G/A..It's simple really - some people can fly and some try:hmm:

Blue side up chaps!!!

[EK380]

Boys (and girls...),

I've been at EK for a while and have some thoughts for especially the affected F/O's by the FCI.

First of all, I surely don't agree with the new rules! I also must say I'm not affected by all of this, since I've been in the LHS for a number of years.

Even before the new upgrade rules, I've always had the following thoughts on upgrades:

You will get the chance to do an upgrade in a company like EK, when the company is doubling its fleet. When EK had 120 aircraft when you joined, you should get your upgrade when EK has 240 A/C.

1/You might think we need more captains than fo/s, because Training Capts and management capts don't fly as much on the line as F/O's. Correct, but to me, that's balanced by the fact that we need more fo's for the 3 crew flights, e.g. PER,KIX... than capt's.

2/Next point I always hear is... what about DEC's? I suppose the number of DEC's is balanced by the number of captains resigning (or being fired, lol!)

3/ Last, one fleet has always been a little faster than the other, but that just balances itself out after time.

All of this might be a simplified view, but seems to be not far from reality! Doesn't take rocket science, if you ask me...

I struggle to understand the guys that joined 1 or 2 years ago and seriously thought they would be upgrading after 3 years...

Your thoughts please...:rolleyes:

[4HolerPoler]

I ain't ever had to do a G/A for an unstable approach

It's simple really - some people can fly and some try.

:ok: Self-appreciation award of the week to White Knight :ok:

Say old chap, is it true that you have full-length mirrors in every room in the house?

[tbaylx]

If we're talking about staff numbers to watch out for who have a history of reporting fellow f/d and cabin crew...boeing guys watch your ass around We know who he is...will eventually get what's coming to him.

Sorry, had to delete. EGGW

[Mick Jagger]

Sad to read indeed. EK was once a great airline and a great job, unfortunately greed and shortsightedness set in. When I left EK in 2005 I told management at my interview that if the present policies and pay levels were maintained EK would have an accident. The training department was in disarray and over stretched DECs were under qualified in some cases and moral was being erroded fast. What is happening now happened before after the Gulf Air Crash. The company shunned responsibility for its structural failings and believed that the DEC would bolster the experience level and prevent EK suffering the same fate as GA. Sadly not, the shameful Terms and conditions were failing to attract and retain the kind of experience necessary to sustain rapid growth and so the company bottom fished in order to fill seats.
Whats happening now is simply the effect of such a misguided policy. Rather than pay the cost of adequately rewarding its pilots for the fine job they do it chose the quick fix.
The company response to the latest incident is the same as before. DECs.
The effect will be the same. My advice to the young and keen is get out ASAP and build your career elsewhere. As for the old and weary all I can say is ....I told you so ;)
I wish you all the very best and sincerely hope that EK wake up an smell the coffee

[nolimitholdem]

You aren't seriously equating Jet's situation a couple years ago with EK present-day? I know DEC's at Jet and the guys sitting next to them aren't qualified to command NOW let alone when they actually were hiring.

But hey don't let the facts or irrelevant comparisons get in the way of a good self-righteous rant!

[White Knight]

4HP - I merely speak about what I see on line. I have to say I'm getting fed up of seeing guys UNABLE to fly a CDA... And other basic airmanship stuff:uhoh: Indeed - some really try. And some have it - simple!!

As for the mirrors - I'd need damn large mirrors to see myself in! Now that's self appreciation:ok::ok:

[mrs nomer]

Hi White Knight -

I've just had a call from the tailor: Your gold uniform with blue bars is ready.:E

[Mick Jagger]

Bin Liner

You re barking up the wrong tree mate. First of all I have NEVER had a DEC I have always joined at the bottom. You make little of my words at my leaving interview but leading up to that were 6 months of bitter negotiations with various managers culminating in a resignation from training followed by my resignation from EK. At least I sat down with the then HOFO and told him he was an idiot. What have you done to change your situation?
I enjoyed EK when I was there and no one was sadder than I when I left. Forgive me a little nostalgia.
If more pilots had stood up and been counted YOU would not be in the situation in which you find yourself.
Believe me my bitter friend, you can vent your spleen here to you hearts content, you may feel better but EK will not change because you have the cahonas to say it the way it is on an anonymous forum.
I am against DECs for many reasons, EK has more than adequate experience and ability amongst the FO ranks. DECs are not necessarily better than the GUYs you know.
You have some balls calling me a hypocrite after I left on my principals when you cower before your master in adversity.
Think again little man:=

[411A]

BA is suffering and will probably do the usual layoffs, early redundancy etc.
BA Captains will qualify for EK direct entry


History repeats, as usual.
Same situation in 1977 with BA...and SQ needed Captains, PDQ.
They hired twenty of 'em.
Four left within six months, the rest were gone in the first year.
Why?
They were not used to actually working for a living, you see...and thought the journey on down to S'pore was a vacation.
They found out soon enough that the screws would be turned, big time.

A leopard does not change its spots...then or now.:}

[typhoonpilot]

Mick is one heck of a good guy and he joined his present airline as a First Officer.

Anyone who speaks out against DECs at EK is just being logical. They are not needed at all. The only argument that can ever be made for their hiring was when the A340-300s showed up. Since then the airline could have easily gotten by without them. They certainly do not need them now, or ever again. To hire even 1 DEC today is a slap in the face to all First Officers at the company.


Typhoonpilot

[etops777]

They certainly do not need them now, or ever again. To hire even 1 DEC today is a slap in the face to all First Officers at the company.Typhoonpilot


Absolutely..:ok:

[jackbauer]

Hi White Knight -

I've just had a call from the tailor: Your gold uniform with blue bars is ready.

That is the funniest post I have ever read, and with over 1000 posts to his name its probably fair to say WK has a high opinion of his own hot air.:D

[CheikhUR6]

Let's think about everybody stop flying at the same time ?
And use Pprune to link pilots !!
to Stop DEC

[Wiley]

CheikhUR6, the location you give under your name ('black hole') is rather appropriate with your making posts like your last one.

[Payscale]

Chill guys!

Its just a Job. You join as an FO. Merit/vacancy, not seniority gives command. Seniority gives access to the review board. Its not automatically guaranteed when you join. As someone already explained. If you have 5 aircraft all pilots will be captains when there are 10 shinny aircraft. If you join when there are 100 aircraft in the fleet, expect you number to be call then there are 200 aircraft. DEC have been around for at least 5 years. So, I assume they were here when you joined.

EK is a business. Basta! Its wholly owned by a guy who also happens to own a country. He doesnt need to be nice these days. When the times turn, he will give us a nice bonus and we will all wag our tails again.

Thats my honest opinion. :ooh:

[Marooned]

It is wholly owned by a guy who also happens to own a country that is bankrupt. The airline is being bled to pay off $billions in debt and eventually Abu Dhabi will pick up the pieces... it's just a matter of time.

And it's a bit rich to ask people to chill if the terms and conditions are changed after joining however many aircraft they had. It's simply is unfair and unnecessary, both the changes to the upgrade requirements and the subsequent 'need' for DECs.

TCAS knows that DECs could never happen at BA and anytime you see ED with his captains uniform on he should be reminded that he does not have the EK qualifications to wear it.

My honest opinion.

[fatbus]

Why is there a need for DEC's ? No hiring until late this year and at that very little. And a big surplus in trainers to do all the required training for new hire FO's

[Visual Procedures]

Jeeeez Fatbus.

How very perceptive. :D

[grumpy_bugger]

Can't be bothered reading 9 pages of this but agree in general it sucks apart from the prima donna FO 'instructors' who have no experience on big aeroplanes now totally screwed. Let's see their 'instructor' resignations roll in. What's more important fellas?:yuk:

[Fubaliera]

Monthly upgrade of f/o to Cap to double by september, upgrade time will decrease to 3 years.

[fatbus]

That was a good laugh