Prospect decide to pull away from NATS Working Together

[Medway Control]

ATCO Branch to withdraw from Working Together Agreement (http://atcos.co.uk/featured/atco-branch-to-withdraw-from-working-together-agreement.html)

some would say about time?

[10W]

I would :ok:

It's been a one way street since it started and all it's acheived is helping management get their bonuses, at the expense of the workers who do all the graft for no similar reward.

About time we stopped pulling them out the mire time after time and now let them sink due to their own incompetence and lack of skills.

[Standard Noise]

Let's not get too excited (much as I want to), but the result of the pay ballot isn't due til this Friday or possibly even Monday. We'll look a bit stupid ranting about pulling the 'Working Together' agreement if a majority of sheep vote Yes.

On the whole though, YEEEEHHAAAA!

[mr.777]

Better late than never I suppose...I feel that most of the damage, unfortunately, has already been done though.

[Radarspod]

Is the ATSS group following the ATCO group out the door? :confused:

RS

[Standard Noise]

Why not, the more the merrier.

[121decimal375]

Its about time! Its this Prospect growing some balls??

http://static.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon14.gif

[Mr A Tis]

I doubt the RB will be bothered too much. They have achieved their objective of lowering employees expectations. Job done.
Prospect ?? Too little too late.

[luv pringles]

I'm sure managment are not going to lose any sleep over this, it was obvious that it was only working one way from the start, they will just carry on doing what what they started, just a bit more huff and puff from the union. And if NSL thinkl that NERL are going to take any firm action on their behalf then forget it now, a few letters of support is what you'll get

[anotherthing]

It's a start, but long overdue - people have been saying for ages that 'Working Together' was all one way.

Bear in mind this has come from the union that recommended acceptance of the pay deal whilst the company bleated poverty and forked out a multi million pound dividend.

Management will not lose any sleep over this whatsoever, the real test (of the union) will come if its membership ever votes 'No' to a management proposal.

As an aside, does anyone know of any other unions that can represent us? Can new unions be started for this purpose??

[PeltonLevel]

If you want to get a new union involved, first you would have to get Prospect derecognised (if such a word exists) - see my post of 30 March: http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/358345-uk-nats-pay-negotiations-latest-rumours-33.html#post4826396
Then you would have to go through the reverse process to get another union recognised. This might be a tedious exercise without management cooperation - they might see divide and rule as a good option. Remember that in the interregnum, there won't be any recognised union (for what that's worth).

[luv pringles]

Well i seem to have touched a nerve Jonny B , iam only saying things as i see them having been in the company for over 25 years, lets not kid ourselves that we are all together, i did not mean that NERL will shaft NSL , only that if terms and conditions are changed in NSL only, why to you assume action will be taken, so the SDC said, well i've heard plenty from the union. lets think back now at what point did the union tell the membership that the final salary scheme was only was only for those in the company at the time of ppp mmmmm. i seem to remember them saying only an act of parliament can change it. also i was reminded the other day by an ATSA of a few years back, when PROSPECT did a deal with MANAGMENT, over the SAMOS, and PCS has to threaten to take court action, and PCS were told by PROSPECT just a mis understanding, and when managment changed the redundancy terms 2 years ago, the union said dont worry there won't be many! i think ATSA readers might not agree now,

[kats-I]

luv pringles
having been in the company for over 25 years:eek:
Are you telling porkies about your age..39..???:confused: or is that Jonny B good??

[mr.777]

As an aside, does anyone know of any other unions that can represent us?

TGWU may be a fair bet....as a former member, they don't stand for any nonsense.

[Taffy1]

I say RMT:ok:

As much as Bob Crowe and the tube strikes annoy the public, and inconvienienced me last week, appart from the safety issues they walked out on (which I dissagreed with), trying to tie down the TFL drivers to a 5year paydeal based on whats going on now with the economy is ludicrous, I know we arent being offered a deal this long, but I would much rather him and his team negotiating for us.

Pleased that this Working Together bo**ocks is going though, seems to be all give from our side and take from mangement. Looking forward to seeing the yearly results end of this month.............once the paydeal ballot has closed, coincidence eh........:ugh:

[Frank Disclosure]

I don't think Paul Barron & Ian Mills will be particularly upset about the ATCO branch withdrawing from the Working Together Agreement.

They are not daft, I imagine they know exactly what savings they want to make in the Ops rooms and they will go about it in a methodical manner.

Unlike previous managements they are simply not scared of ATCOs; they will have walked around the Ops rooms and seen ATCOs dressed for the beach in their long shorts and flip flops.

[ZOOKER]

"they will have walked around the Ops rooms and seen ATCOs dressed for the beach in their long shorts and flip flops".
And your point is........?
Most EUR Region operational ATC staff do not wear suits.
What matters here is the quality of the service provided.
In the UK FIRs, it's first class.

[anotherthing]

I have heard rumours that a couple of ATCOs are trying to set up a breakaway Union.

Don't know how true or feasible that is. Surely they would have to speak to others to find out if there is any level of support for it?

Probably just bluff, but who knows?

[mr.777]

Hmmmm...where do I sign up?:E

As for "long shorts and flip flops"....have you considered the fact that most ATCOs couldn't give a **** what Management think when it comes to dress code? There isn't one. Full stop. End of.
I will however go out of my way, particularly in summer, to make myself look as scruffy as is humanly possible when I go to CTC because I know it pisses them all off... "Look at the scruffy ATCO, what a disgrace"...yeah, get ****ed office monkey.

[11K-AVML]

get ****ed office monkey. Thanks for that, although I presume you are not branding the whole of CTC based workers/employees with this slogan?

[privatesandwiches]

Are you an engineer? If so I wouldnt count you as an office monkey :ok:

[mr.777]

Thanks for that, although I presume you are not branding the whole of CTC based workers/employees with this slogan?

Do I really need to explain? See above.

[11K-AVML]

Not wanting to get into an argument I just thought I'd make the point and be a bit defensive.
I realise you're only refering to managment types, but feeling defensive at the moment, just like to make it clear that I don't think anyone I know at the CTC really cares how scruffy you look, certainly not me, I think they're just surprised that's all. I've seen a few CTC based workers who appear more scruffy than any ATCO I've seen mind; they do look out of place - strangley they always seem to be union members!
There's a time and a place; if you have a meeting with external clients and you have to give a good impression, then there's obviously a need to look smart. An ATCO at the CTC for training, I don't think people really care.

Please don't think that the majority of workers at the CTC think the same way as upper management. There's internal politics that has to be played to get anywhere, but that's another thread...

BTW, I'm not an engineer; I get paid much less. :(
Ho hum, better decide how I'm going to vote.

[mr.777]

Point taken 11K. You pretty much summed up the aim of my post, meant only as a bit of fun anyway.:ok:

[ImnotanERIC]

I seem to remember one of the first truces or tvcs ran at ctc after the move to swanwick from WD and somebody mentioned to whoever was running the course that the standard of dress could be improved.
This is second hand information , but the source is reliable.

[Frank Disclosure]

mr.777 (http://www.pprune.org/members/58310-mr-777)
get ****ed office monkey.mr.777 (http://www.pprune.org/members/58310-mr-777)
meant only as a bit of fun anyway.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifReally?

You think comparing people who work in offices to monkeys can be classed as a bit of fun?

[privatesandwiches]

I've heard worse, at least as a monkey there is some salvation of the human form!!! :ok:

[kats-I]

Back to the pay deal..Pay peanuts and you get monkeys! (or elelphants):p

Sorry..couldn't resist..it was meant light hearted before anyone else jumps on the bandwagon.:p

[Radarspod]

any chance we could get back on topic?? I really don't give a stuff about ATCOs being scruffy and am bored with persistent CTC bashing by people who don't understand (or don't want to understand) the business functions carried out there. Thanks.

Jonny B Good's post mentioned an ATSS BEC this week but the post has gone. I can't find the date elsewhere, does anyone else know? What would happen if one branch pulls out of Working Together but the other stays in - the letter to management was related to unilateral action by NATS affecting ATCO branch interests only. Does Prospect keep a united front as Prospect, or do the separate section representation make their own mind up? It would seem daft to do the latter if the vote goes the way I hope and we may actually need to stand up as one force. But then why wasn't the letter to management a joint letter from the two Prospect branches and PCS...:confused:

RS

[Flybywyre]

What would happen if one branch pulls out of Working Together but the other stays in

That would be akin to the end of the world :eek:
(and play straight into managements hands)
IMHO

[mr.777]

You think comparing people who work in offices to monkeys can be classed as a bit of fun?

Do you think that ATCOs wearing "long shorts" (whatever they are) and "flip flops" has ANYTHING to do with Prospect puliing out of the working together agreement??:ugh:

[Frank Disclosure]

You think comparing people who work in offices to monkeys can be classed as a bit of fun?mr.777

Do you think that ATCOs wearing "long shorts" (whatever they are) and "flip flops" has ANYTHING to do with Prospect puliing out of the working together agreement?? A diversionary question :)


If you re read my original post you’ll see I never said long shorts and flip flops had anything to do with the ATCOs withdrawing from the working together agreement.

My post doubted NATS’s senior management would be too concerned at this turn of events and the reference to beach wear being worn in the Ops room was made after the observation that unlike previous managements Paul Barron & Co. weren’t scared of ATCOs.

Now, back to your monkey comment; please explain how comparing a group of workers to monkeys can be considered a bit of fun.

[mr.777]

the reference to beach wear being worn in the Ops room was made after the observation that unlike previous managements Paul Barron & Co. weren’t scared of ATCOs.

You are talking utter rubbish. I see you have downgraded it now from long shorts (still waiting for you to enlighten us as to what the difference is between them and shorts) and flip flops to "beachwear"...brilliant. I think you'll find you created the diversion by spouting this nonsense.

From Urban Dictionary...office monkey: "A person employed in an office". Thats it. No reference to animals...or did you think it was something i just made up off the top of my head?:ugh: For the record, I have plenty of friends who work in offices and have absolutely no problem being referred to as office monkeys.

Mods, apologies for thread hijack, I believe he's got his answer now:rolleyes:

[Kaboodle]

To get back to the thread topic. NATS management must be quaking in their boots, they have probably achieved all that they wanted to.

Time for a new union, take a look at this website, brilliant stuff.

www.crapunion.co.uk (http://www.crapunion.co.uk)

[eastern wiseguy]

Kaboodle.........


Brilliant....the "Not Airway" for the noughties...:ok::ok::ok:

[Standard Noise]

Kaboodle - that's fantastic, best laugh I've had in years.
Surprised there isn't an ad in the 'Wanted' section for 16 revolving doors to be fitted to GM's offices.

[anotherthing]

SN

you should send in an email to [email protected] with suggestions - the web owner might just add stuff - it certainly indicates that on the website...

Wonder what the subscription fees will be :}

[mr.777]

Outstanding job...whoever is responsible for that website gave everybody this morning a good laugh and brightnened up an otherwise boring Sunday morning....now, where do I sign up?:}

[ayrprox]

with regard to the withdrawing from working together,

'oh my god!, the horses have escaped...someone lock the d..'


oh, never mind you get the picture

:ugh:

[tczulu]

Prospects idea of withdrawing from "working together" is to hand back the tube of KY jelly-we will still be shafted but more painfully.:uhoh:

[Frank Disclosure]

mr.777 (http://www.pprune.org/members/58310-mr-777)

You are talking utter rubbish. I see you have downgraded it now from long shorts (still waiting for you to enlighten us as to what the difference is between them and shorts) and flip flops to "beachwear"...brilliant. I think you'll find you created the diversion by spouting this nonsense. Really? From my original post...

ATCOs dressed for the beach So where was the downgrading or diversion? Or did you think it best to create an imaginary one?



Back to your monkey comment; you kindly supplied a definition from the Urban Dictionary

"A person employed in an office". But wait, the full definition given at the Urban Dictionary is

office monkey - A person employed in an office, usually in a subordinate, low-paying position.

Oh dear, you omitted the derogatory bits.

Let’s face it, for some reason, my simple mentioning of ATCOs wearing long shorts & flip flops to work touched a very raw nerve...

Mr.777

I will however go out of my way, particularly in summer, to make myself look as scruffy as is humanly possible when I go to CTC because I know it pisses them all off... "Look at the scruffy ATCO, what a disgrace"...yeah, get ****ed office monkey.
You initially tried to excuse this as

meant only as a bit of fun And when pressed you fall back on a version of the old chestnut

some of my best friends are ***** and they don’t mind being called ***** *******

I hope you'll forgive me if I remain unconvinced.

[chiglet]

Frank,
I was given my nick name nearly 40 years ago. The first two letters are my initials. The second two stand for "Idle Git", and the "let" is from a WM, who didn't like single sylabub names.
It was given in fun, it's not PC, lighten up....'cos you're not living up to your ndp :D

[ImnotanERIC]

it's not derogatory to be subordinate to an atco. be pleased you are employed monkey boy.......... milk and two.

[Frank Disclosure]

ImnotanERIC

it's not derogatory to be subordinate to an atco. be pleased you are employed monkey boy.......... milk and two.

[ImnotanERIC]

good point frank

[privatesandwiches]

To be frank Eric, you think the lesser spotted monkey of office would be more swish with the use of a keyboard!!!! Must be less competent after too many costa my coffees!!!!
Now go cry to mamma :{

[Frank Disclosure]

ImnotanERIC (http://www.pprune.org/members/177566-imnotaneric) I thought I’d preserve your post as it looked like one of those late night posts that often disappears by the morning and I didn’t want that happen.

Hope you don’t mind ;)


ImnotanERIC (http://www.pprune.org/members/177566-imnotaneric)
it's not derogatory to be subordinate to an atco. Really? I didn’t know ATCOs had any subordinates; who are these people are and what form does their subordination take?

Last time I was in TC the ATCOs had to peel their own grapes :)


ImnotanERIC (http://www.pprune.org/members/177566-imnotaneric)

be pleased you are employed I am pleased I’m employed thanks, as I imagine you are too, always nice to have the mortgage paid isn’t it :O

ImnotanERIC (http://www.pprune.org/members/177566-imnotaneric)
monkey boy Oh there you go spoiling things.

Never mind I expect being so superior it’s quite normal for you to be calling people monkey boy.

And you don’t need to do it from behind the safety of a computer screen do you! Très courageux!


ImnotanERIC (http://www.pprune.org/members/177566-imnotaneric)
.......... milk and two. I’d suggest far more soda myself :ok:

[kats-I]

Frank Disclosure
ImnotanEric

Honestly guys you sound like a longtime married couple..for goodness sake ..enough already..kiss and make up!:eek::}

[White Hart]

I'm with Frank on this one!

[Minesapint]

Definately an E.R.I.C. :E

[Caesartheboogeyman]

we need less office monkeys.
Surely there is an excel or word forum that you could go to and discuss issues such as "when is it acceptable to photocopy your own balls, before work, at lunch, after work or never?" etc etc etc

[Vote NO]

Don't know why all the fuss about office monkeys ? :E

"when is it acceptable to photocopy your own balls, before work, at lunch, after work or never?" etc etc etchttp://thm-a03.yimg.com/image/1becbd74b36196ae
:ok:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/02-05/0218monkey1.jpg
http://www.bayjenweb.com/r/docs/2187/monkey_office_man.jpg

http://johnsenciojam.com/JS-JAM-PICS-WEB-1/Monkey_Office_1A.jpg

[ZOOKER]

Is the chap in the yellow shirt working on a map of a new 'Functional Airspace Block'? :}

[Vote NO]

Looks like it :}

[Caesartheboogeyman]

vote no, i love those pics. good find!!

[Vote NO]

..............:ok:

The truth is always out there.............:}

[ZOOKER]

Could that be the infamous 'Room 21' on the right?

[Radarspod]

yawn.........:bored:

[Frank Disclosure]

So you wear flip flops & long shorts to work, think a lame website called crapunion.co.uk is hilarious and you like to called people who aren't ATCOs monkeys.

My, my, how clever ATCOs are.

[White Hart]

steady on Frank, you know you dont really want to upset Dumb and Dumber - again! (ha ha!) :p

[Spamcan defender]

Ahh..so THATS what goes on at CTC.....



Only kidding folks. In all truth I have a few mates who work there and know its not all Starbucks and photocopying your balls :p. From my perspective and the majority of my watch, CTC baiting is 100% tounge-in-cheek. Absolutely no one I have heard talking wants people to lose their jobs etc.

Zooker - the comment about the 'chap in the yellow shirt working on the new FAB' had me chuckling.:ok:

Spamcan

[ImnotanERIC]

frankie:

So you wear flip flops & long shorts to work, think a lame website called crapunion.co.uk is hilarious and you like to called people who aren't ATCOs monkeys.

My, my, how clever ATCOs are.



now you are getting somewhere.

[Radarspod]

To my surprise I went to a meeting today at Swanwick, and in the canteen their were ATCOs wearing shorts and flip-flops :}

Just goes to show not all you read on PPRUNE is BS! :ok:

RS

[Arkady]

Why was your meeting a surprise? Surely that's no way to run an efficient ANSP.:cool:

[11K-AVML]

Only kidding folks. In all truth I have a few mates who work there and know its not all Starbucks and photocopying your balls http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif. From my perspective and the majority of my watch, CTC baiting is 100% tounge-in-cheek. Absolutely no one I have heard talking wants people to lose their jobs etc.You realise it not Starbucks at all now... it's Costa Coffee - Starbucks lost/didn't want (?) the contract. It is good to know that perceptions of the CTC are not always as negative as some of us fear (seriously) :).

[mr.777]

ATCOs wearing shorts

Ah yes, but you fail to specify whether they were "long shorts" or merely "shorts"...I believe there is a huge difference between the two.

[Bucking Bronco]

NATS working together = BA guiding principles
At BA guiding principles was set up so that BALPA and BA mgmt could work closer together to achieve "win - win" outcomes. After a while the pilots felt that it was more like a one way street of concessions - a non return valve.

It's the same with NATS working together. At the end of the day so long as mgmt at NATS and BA are rewarded with bonuses for driving down costs (your pay and conditions) then there's only going to be one outcome. Remember it's their full time job to manage you and make you "more efficient"; whilst you have to do your job and if you have the strength at the end of the day you've got to fight to keep hold of what you signed up for. Bit by bit they'll keep taking from you and it turns into the death of a thousand cuts.

WRT what you wear at work then ATCOs only have themselves to blame. Quite right that as long as you're comfortable then what you wear doesn't effect how well you do you job BUT... what you wear will have an effect on how you percieve yourselves, your perception of the status of your work and how others in the workplace look at you. Thus it has an influence in the relationship you will have with your managers. So you go into a meeting with your boss wearing flip flops, shorts and looking like a teenager whilst your manager is wearing a suit - how do you think this will effect the game? Hint - google transactional analysis.


Laters

BB

[Avoiding_Action]

Ah yes, but you fail to specify whether they were "long shorts" or merely "shorts"...I believe there is a huge difference between the two

Or if they were in fact short shorts.

[wiccan]

WRT what you wear at work then ATCOs only have themselves to blame. Quite right that as long as you're comfortable then what you wear doesn't effect how well you do you job BUT... what you wear will have an effect on how you percieve yourselves, your perception of the status of your work and how others in the workplace look at you. Thus it has an influence in the relationship you will have with your managers. So you go into a meeting with your boss wearing flip flops, shorts and looking like a teenager whilst your manager is wearing a suit -
What a load of Humfetty Poo, [as my now deceased FIL would say]
When I am in the Public [Customer] wiew, I will dress accordingly [as when I was a F;ight Briefing Officer]....When sitting in the Tower, or on the wings, I wore a Polo shirt and slacks. As a Runway Controller, then I certainly wore shorts

[ImnotanERIC]

exaclty, i have never heard so much old ****. it's invneting things like transitional analysis that is why there are so many monkeys working at ctc. we are becoming a nation of pussys.

[mr.777]

wearing flip flops, shorts and looking like a teenager

Brilliant...downgraded further from beachwear to a bunch of teenagers. And you wonder why have no respect for management lackey office monkey-types.:ugh:
For the record the way I dress today, with the exception of my trainers (which for the benefit of our resident fashionista Frank Disclosure are vintage Air Max 90s in the old skool infrared colourway) bears no resemblance to what i wore in 1990.

As for the rest of the paragraph...I agree with the above 2 comments. Transactional analysis? WTF?

[privatesandwiches]

If its hot I will wear tshirt, shorts and maybe flippedy flops. If its cold I will wear jeans and a jumper. Do I give a balls what my manager thinks or anyone else..... NO!
Although dressing like a cabin boy is 777's personal choice. But i guess mister frank probably thinks that wearing a shirt and trousers may remind me that I shouldnt aim planes at one another...... Duh!!!
You work in an office, we dont.
You have office wear, we dont.
You have meetings to attend, we dont.
You are a clone, erm.... some of us aren't.

There is a fancy dress shop in Botley, big discount on shirt, ties and monkey suits if you show your ctc costa loyalty card!

[mr.777]

Although dressing like a cabin boy is 777's personal choice.

Haha...very good PS, that'll be yesterdays outfit you were referring to then?! Stop off at that fancy dress shop and pick up some tea towels for yourself...you'll need them in September:}

[Gonzo]

I find it rather sad that the issue that seems to galvanise my colleagues most is not ATSAs losing their jobs, nor the pension issues, nor pay, nor NSL/NERL splitting up.......it's a complete rumour about dress code that started with a comment from a manager getting blown up out of all proportion.

And who said ATCOs were selfish? :}

[privatesandwiches]

Oh dear.
The sense of humour police have arrived!

[PeltonLevel]

The sense of humour police have arrived!
What sense of humour?

[privatesandwiches]

Ok then.... the fun police.
Always got to bring back the NATS doom and gloom :ok:

[wiccan]

As it happens, I am claiming my [ATSA] pension.
I have been proud to work with the majority of ATCOs....
but, there have been one or two who were PITA
Some you win, some you get out.....PD chuffin' Q
bb

[Arch Stanton]

While some of you think it is relevant to bicker about dress codes and whether you are more important than office workers, it is worth repeating Bucking Broncos statement that should be a warning to all of us:

At the end of the day so long as mgmt at NATS and BA are rewarded with bonuses for driving down costs (your pay and conditions) then there's only going to be one outcome. Remember it's their full time job to manage you and make you "more efficient"

Criticising your fellow workers will not improve your lot one bit but but it is obviously easier than pulling together and actually doing something constructive.

[sr562]

Dress codes and self importance aside. Whilst i may wear shorts and flip flops to work tommorow, i will also think about the operational jobs on the line whilst tucking into my microwaved meal (but only if i get it through security as it might have too much sauce and therefore will be a risk to national security). Hopefully so will Mr Frank and his colleagues who can rely on the faithful chef employed solely to stir fry thier lunch, which can be chosen from the varied selection of ingredients available and, who will of course be wearing an appropriate unifrom whilst doing so. Then onwards they will go for a game of chess in the garden.

After my meal i will be satisfied that although everyday at work we are reminded of how much a paper clip costs and that we have to get rid of more assistants and a few controllers to make the contract work, the large overhead paid to ctc every year is being used wisely.

[ayrprox]

I've just seen the profits posted by nats for this year
I see working together has done the company proud.
:yuk:

[Vote NO]

Air Traffic Business Posts Year-End Results - NATS (http://www.nats.co.uk/article/253/280/air_traffic_business_posts_year_end_results.html)


NATS, the UK’s leading air navigation service provider, has reported a strong set of financial results for the year ended 31 March 2009. The group also maintained its safety record, provided customers with good operational service and continued to deliver on its critical investment projects.
NATS is focused on reducing its operating cost base in its en route business - from levels previously planned - by £45m in the next two years.( there goes our Terms and Conditions):eek: This will ensure that the charges for its economically regulated services for the period 2011 to 2015 are held as low as possible.



NATS Group profit before tax (£) wait for it........................



£135.5 Million :ok:

Now, where are all those monkeys that voted yes? :ugh:

http://www.bayjenweb.com/r/docs/2187/monkey_office_man.jpg

[121decimal375]

I think the majority of the yes voters will be hiding in their offices or in the operational enviroment pretending they voted no!

Either way Barron wins yet again!

So how many sick days do I need to make myself feel better???

[11K-AVML]

Or they've still not twigged even now. :ugh:

[hold at SATAN]

Working Together Meeting Scheduled (http://atcos.co.uk/bec/working-together-meeting-scheduled.html)

Prospect ATCO Branch have accepted a NATS invitation to attend discussions on Working Together with Senior Management of both Airports and Enroute on 7th July

Will prospect give NATS a big F**k You! or bend over and take it up the proverbial

[mr.777]

F***ing great.They are so piss weak it makes want to throw up. I notice there was nothing on the poxy website about the fact that they saddled us with a 2% payrise whilst Mr & Mrs PB earnt in excess of £1million last year.
W***kers.

[hold at SATAN]

That's 2% over TWO Years - bloody hell.

[Bucking Bronco]

C'mon guys what were you expecting?

They were keen to lock you into a 2 year deal BEFORE the results came out. What % increase did they grant themselves?
How much did Mrs Barron earn? Board acts in the interests of themselves - clear conflict of interest.
They moved away from using RPI - it suited them in the past but this year - no.
So how did you get into this position?
Quite a few of your union reps end up becoming managers :eek:
Company has professional negotiators, you have part time volunteers.
Accurate financial information wasn't shared with the union - ie you were lied to.

Unfortunately you've just been royally shafted - with a handful of sand for lube. Bloody gutted for all my ATCO friends.

[Frank Disclosure]

privatesandwiches (http://www.pprune.org/members/283424-privatesandwiches)


You work in an office, we dont.
You have office wear, we dont.
You have meetings to attend, we dont.
You are a clone, erm.... some of us aren't.Errrr.

My office is where my desk is, correct me if I am wrong but ATCOs work in an open plan office. That must be awful.

I can wear what I want. I choose to dress like an adult, how do you choose to dress?

The other morning I was walking down the corridor and there was 2 ATCOs in their flippy-floppy uniforms and it suddenly struck me who they reminded me of (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwN_ouVbwPA)

Yes TC has now been renamed CT :8

[Over+Out]

What a load of puerile nonsense!

[ImnotanERIC]

office monkey 1;

The other morning I was walking down the corridor and there was 2 ATCOs in their flippy-floppy uniforms and it suddenly struck me who they reminded me of (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwN_ouVbwPA)

Yes TC has now been renamed CTBrush shoulders with the stars.
Where strangers take you by the hand,
And welcome you to wonderland -
From beneath their panamas..

some of the first verse from your link.
stars - TC staff
wonderland - TC
k-m-t.
YouTube - Monkey Office Party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-_OzDc2v5s)
this reminded ME of what many an office looks like around the swanwick area.
replace the "sales graph" with an aman related chart.
ignorance is bliss.

[privatesandwiches]

Frank,

That looks delightful, where do we sign up?

I think comparing an ops room to an open plan office is clutching at straws. Dress how you want, I couldnt give a ****. Its others who seem to have the issue with what ATCO's and ATSA's wear. The more people grumble and moan, the more the knee jerk reaction to dress like that there will be.

Tell you what, when the mickey mouse crap we have to work with that some office monkey has got a bonus to shoehorn in such as AMAN works..... I will wear a shirt, tie, trousers and shoes.

Simples!

[PeltonLevel]

ATCOs work in an open plan office

No - they work in an Operations Room. I guess that makes them operators. (Certainly some seem to to think like operators)

[ZOOKER]

Pelton Level,
Surely you mean 'smooth operators'. :ok:

[mr.777]

Errrr.

My office is where my desk is, correct me if I am wrong but ATCOs work in an open plan office. That must be awful.

I can wear what I want. I choose to dress like an adult, how do you choose to dress?

The other morning I was walking down the corridor and there was 2 ATCOs in their flippy-floppy uniforms and it suddenly struck me who they reminded me of

Yes TC has now been renamed CT

I have no problem whatsoever with being compared to WHAM!...in fact they were my childhood heroes. I've always had a soft spot for George Michael since I saw them live at Wembley in '86, although I always thought Andrew Ridgely was a waste of space. Whilst Club Tropicana was indeed a great song, I much preferred their later works, particularly the "Make it Big" LP.

So if you were trying to upset me with your latest "Careless Whisper"...sorry...FAIL.

BTW, when am I getting my explanation as to what "long shorts" are, or do you think I'd forgotten??

[ZOOKER]

mr. 777,
while never being a fan of WHAM!, one of the lines in 'Club Tropicana' has always intrigued me.
In the chorus, George Michael states repeatedly that, "Club Tropicana, drinks are free".
Now, most people know that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Check out the excellent song "Sweet Nothing' by Working Week, (1985). - it knocks Wham into a 'cocked hat', (remember those, :E)
So, who the hell picked up the tab for the drinks?
My theory, (which is mine and what it is too), is that it was the Musician's Union, 'working together' with management! :}

[mr.777]

Unfortunately, the only time the drinks are free at CT Swanwick is when the vending machine is broken or somebody retires.

[anotherthing]

Am I correct in thinking there is a Union/Management meeting tomorrow to discuss 'Working Together' and the recent Prospect statement of intent to withdraw?

How long do you think it will be before the union capitulates on its talk of withdrawing support for 'Working Together'?

Weeks, Days, lunchtime tomorrow???

Do you think the Union will get our 'Freedom' or do you think our head bod will tell management 'I'm Your Man'? Maybe it's time for the 'Young Guns' to take over negotiations.

Sorry, Wham drift again at the end there... :ugh:

[Frank Disclosure]

Over+Out (http://www.pprune.org/members/22647-over-out)

What a load of puerile nonsense!
I think you’re being a little harsh on Wham!


privatesandwiches (http://www.pprune.org/members/283424-privatesandwiches)
I think comparing an ops room to an open plan office is clutching at straws. Really?


Do you not work at desks…….do you not use paper & pens…………. do you not have telephones & computers to hand?


From wiktionary.org
office - A building or room where clerical or professional duties are performed. The Ops room may be a specialised office but it is still an office. An open plan one to boot :8


privatesandwiches (http://www.pprune.org/members/283424-privatesandwiches)
Its others who seem to have the issue with what ATCO's and ATSA's wear. The more people grumble and moan,I haven’t heard anyone grumble of moan about what ATCOs wear; I have heard a little laughter though.

I wonder what Lord Adonis thought of CT?


mr.777 (http://www.pprune.org/members/58310-mr-777)

Your Wham! confession and encyclopaedic knowledge of their works has left me speechless.

[kats-I]

Frank Disclosure

ATCOs work at consoles not desks..use headsets more than phones..computers are not at hand just radars and voice comms.
If you have this equipment at your place of work then you must also be in an OPs room and not an office.:confused:

Operating theatres in hospitals have telephones and computers but I don't think they do surgery in an office do they??!!:}:*

[10W]

I wonder what Lord Adonis thought of CT?

I hope his missus does him under the Trades Description Act .. an Adonis he most certainly ain't !!

[ZOOKER]

kats-1
Allegedly, at McNERC, ATCOs will use adjustable 'workstations', - whatever that means.
No 'console-ation'. :E

[Radarspod]

computers are not at hand just radars and voice comms

If we are being picky, then you don't have radars in your 'office', last time I looked at Swanwick or Prestwick I don't remember any spinning antennas.......:}

[Frank Disclosure]

kats-I (http://www.pprune.org/members/295852-kats-i)
ATCOs work at consoles not desks Apart from semantics what exactly is the difference between a console and a desk?

kats-I (http://www.pprune.org/members/295852-kats-i)
use headsets more than phones Is a headset that much different to a phone?

kats-I (http://www.pprune.org/members/295852-kats-i)
computers are not at hand just radars and voice comms. Are your Radar display & Voice Comms not just the output of computers?

kats-I (http://www.pprune.org/members/295852-kats-i)

Operating theatres in hospitals have telephones and computers but I don't think they do surgery in an office do they? I watched a clip on TV where a surgeon controlled an operation from his desk via the internet.


You need to get with the times.

[PeltonLevel]

Are your Radar display & Voice Comms not just the output of computers?
And you may even be using Microsoft Windows!!!

[Sideshow_90]

I also think you will find it is called a "situational display"
get it right ;)

[PDF]

Ummmmmmm you all wonder why not all of the staff sing from the same hymn sheet and then proceed to bitch and moan at each other on an open forum ?

NATS management must read this and wet themselves laughing safe in the knowledge that the workforce is divided and conquered without them having to help it along!

(Sorry if I am being naive, this from an outsiders point of view)

[mr.777]

NATS management must read this and wet themselves laughing

Why? There is nothing funny about Wham!...they were a serious pop group BITD.

Lord Adonis = Mr Burns from The Simpsons...or is just me?

mr.777

Your Wham! confession and encyclopaedic knowledge of their works has left me speechless.

No doubt you are a Duran Duran man....no wait, Spandau Ballet?

[Vote NO]

Frank Disclosure


Frank, I think you are trying to compare playing Microsoft Flight Simulator FSX, with flying a B777 for real. Apparently some people think they can actually fly a fast jet (military term for your benefit Frank :)) after a few hours fannying about on a PC

I am also thinking you have lost the plot :eek:

[kats-I]

Frank Disclosure
I watched a clip on TV where a surgeon controlled an operation from his desk via the internet.
"From his desk" and not "In his office"
But it was the surgeons in the theatre doing the actual cutting!!

Pull up a chair next time you are passing and try doing your paperwork etc from a controller position..you will find it a darn sight easier than controlling a plane from your desk!!

I'm up with the times and its Time for you to grow up.:p
I'm sure we are all appreciative of what each other does...time to stop the bitching.:ok:

[Frank Disclosure]

Vote NO
Frank, I think you are trying to compare playing Microsoft Flight Simulator FSX, with flying a B777 for real. Apparently some people think they can actually fly a fast jet (military term for your benefit Frank ) after a few hours fannying about on a PCNot in the least.

I was merely point out to the rather arrogant tits who refer to people at CTC as Office Monkeys that they too work in an office and at a desk to boot!

[cdtaylor_nats]

kats-1 - if you look into the Oceanic control room you will see a few ATCOs sitting at desks looking at computer screens. No radars.

[Frank Disclosure]

kats-I (http://www.pprune.org/members/295852-kats-i)

Pull up a chair next time you are passing and try doing your paperwork etc from a controller position..you will find it a darn sight easier than controlling a plane from your desk!!I've spent many hours listening and watching ATCOs do their job. Yes I know the responsibility is great and at times it's stressful but it bores me ****less, far too repetitive and no real goals other than finishing the shift.

I think you should be paid more than me for doing that job.

[wiccan]

So, please tell us Frank[ly]....Just what is your job?
bb

[wanderingdon]

NO REAL GOALS APART FROM FINISHING OUR SHIFT


erm.. not sure about that. Personally, my goal is to make sure that those bits of metal in the sky that transport people (including you i'm sure) don't bump into each other- but maybe thats a silly view.

as for boring- to be honest I'll agree the job isn't for everyone but how someone who works in an office 48 weeks a year can claim that air traffic is boring is beyond me- guess horses for courses though.

Frank Disclosure- I'm guessing you work for NATS- glad that you hold such contempt for the people who do the job that this company was set up for. If ATC is that bad why are you still working for NATS- I'm sure there are other office jobs that would mean you'd never have to come into contact with us nasty, scruffy ATCOs.

[PH-UKU]

I've spent many hours listening and watching ATCOs do their job. Yes I know the responsibility is great and at times it's stressful but it bores me ****less, far too repetitive and no real goals other than finishing the shift.
:yuk:

Well all I can say is "Thank :mad: you're not an ATCO, and thank :mad: I don't have to work with you"

You sound like a right tw@ with a huge chip on their shoulder. :D

Now crawl back under your stone you Troll, and leave the ATC forum to the ahem .... more adult amongst us ..... (Never thought I'd find myself saying that on this forum). :p

BTW The tan on my legs is coming along nicely - should I wear Crocs or Tevas tomorrow ... ?

[Gonzo]

Just because FD says that he finds the act of controlling to be a boring proposition doesn't mean that he holds us all in contempt.

I can certainly empathise with FD when he says that there are no goals to being an ATCO.

Currently I work about 50% in the tower wearing a headset, and 50% in the Ops office, so I have experience of both.

While ATC does have goals, for the ATCO they are very short term and transient - For this 1.5hr session of Air Departures, I must launch the a/c as fast as I can without losing separation - There, that's my goal for the next hour and a half, then I get a break and come back and do another position with a different, albeit similar goal.

In the office, I have longer term goals, from some that last a few hours, going up to days, weeks, months and even years. Having to contribute to meetings, development work, projects, using persuasion, negotiation, and all those other 'soft skills' to achieve your goals, especially when your own goals come into conflict with those of others is actually very challenging and rewarding.

As an ATCO I can see that some (most?) ATCOs would find office work boring. As an office worker, I can see that some (most?) office workers would find being an ATCO boring.

All I can draw from the last few posts is that NATS seems to have the right people in the right jobs!:}

[Frank Disclosure]

wanderingdon (http://www.pprune.org/members/243468-wanderingdon) I don’t hold ATCOs in contempt, just the boorish titty wankery ones who go around thinking they are somehow better than everyone else in the company and calling people at CTC monkeys.

PH-UKU (http://www.pprune.org/members/53504-ph-uku) See above.

Gonzo (http://www.pprune.org/members/10776-gonzo) You hit the nail pretty much on the head.

[anotherthing]

RPI is at its lowest since records began in 1948

BBC NEWS | Business | UK inflation dips to 1.8% in June (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8149227.stm)

However at the moment thats a whole 1.2% better than the -2.8% that our incremental pay rise stops at.

I'm glad working together etc has meant that the Union pushed the 2 year deal onto us, without having any caveat in the negotiations saying that if RPI was less negative than -2.8% we would renegotiate.

Once again management have pulled the wool over eyes of the Union leaders (unless of course people believe that they are actually in cahoots). Most people would have bet that RPI was not going to be as bad as was made out by NATS... in fact it is on record that this was mentioned on these very fora.

Roll on the management pay rises in September, with a backdrop of record profits and low RPI...

[PH-UKU]

I don’t hold ATCOs in contempt, just the boorish titty wankery ones who go around thinking they are somehow better than everyone else in the company and calling people at CTC monkeys.


And I thought you were just trolling .... :hmm:

Anyway, point taken, and I apologise for calling you a tw@.

[Lon More]

Air Traffic Control is dominated by two types of people: those who understand what they do not manage, and those who manage what they do not understand.

Zooker wrote at McNERC, ATCOs will use adjustable 'workstations', - whatever that means.


Take a fam trip to Maastricht; had them there for years. Basically the height of the desktop and the footrest can be electrically adjusted for comfort, and by raising or lowering the seat to bring your eye-level to a set of reference marks an ergonomically perfect working can be found ....





..... in theory