'Autoland' function question for pilots

[stjohnsmythe]

Ok, I'm new round here and a keen amateur (so try not to flame me too much for this question) :)

My question is regarding the Autoland feature on modern commercial aircraft, specifically what % of the time do pilots actually use this function. Is it the majority of the time or do most still favour landing an aircraft manually (or semi-manually)?

Also, am I right in thinking that an airport needs to have a Cat 3 ILS system for an aircraft to make a 'full' Autoland (i.e. auto reverse thrusters, etc)?

Thanks

Simon

[oz in dxb]

Simon,

As pilots we always use manual landings unless the weather conditions dictate an autoland. (Fog or reduced visibility) or for practice.
Probably depending on where you fly less than 1% of the time.

Aircraft are either fully automatic or manual landings.

We can fly a full automatic landing using CAT II ILS, however the minimas
(height and visibility have to be higher than if using CAT III ILS)

We don't have automatic reverse thrust. Done manually.

Hope this helps,

Oz

[stjohnsmythe]

Thanks for the reply!

[hetfield]

Hi,

regarding your 1st question, well it depends:).

- weather (if below CATII Autoland is required)
- airport facilities (CATIII ?)
- training of crew
- tech status of the airplane (MEL)


In our route system I do a maximum of 10 autolands/year. If you fly a lot into foggy GB it may be different:). So 99% are manually.

Concerning the 2nd part of your question. Basicly yes. You need CATIII ILS to do autoland, but if the weather is better you can also do autoland on a CATII/I runway with special care (depends on company SOP).

BTW "auto thrust reversers" ???
What's that?

Cheers

[Clandestino]

How often do we autoland? Depends on airborne equipment, ground equipment and company policy. On A320 my company did not allow autolands if ILS wasn't at least CAT II certified and low visibility procedures were in force. Another A320 operator allowed autolands on CAT I ILS but no automatic rollouts - the autopilot had to be disconnected before nosewheel touched the runway. At my outfit one can expect to make 5 to 15 autolands per year out of about 500 total (depending on how long the fog season is).

There's no autoland on my current type (DHC-8 400).

[stjohnsmythe]

Cheers guys.

Hetfield - I read the information about thrust reversers on the wikipedia page about Autoland Autoland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland) (and I can appreciate that Wikipedia isn't the most err, 'accurate' source of information for anything) :)

[411A]

I will normally complete at least one automatic approach/land maneuver (autoland) per week, to check the function of the system.
No restriction on the type of ILS installation...IE: a category one (or more) ILS installation is all that is required, however...the glidepath threshold crossing height (published on most approach charts) must be at least 42 feet, to allow sufficient main gear clearance from the approach lights.
Type, L1011.

[Ladytech]

In the Airline I retired from, the aircraft had to have completed a full Autoland to maintain its Cat III status within the last 60 days. If it had not, it was downgraded to Cat II until a pilot accomplished the fully coupled Autoland and had no problems.
A log entry would be made by the flt crew as to the accomplishment of an autoland with no malfuntions and simply signed off as acknowledged by maintenance and then returned to Cat III status.

If there were problems, it was either downgraded further if needed or repaired.
It would still need the Flight Check to upgrade.

[Nicholas49]

If you autoland, are the automatics capable of landing the aircraft as smoothly as it can be done manually? Or does an autoland equal a 'firm' landing?

Thanks
Nick

[Willie Everlearn]

Cat II and Cat IIIa do NOT require Autoland capability.:ugh:

What if your aircraft doesn't have an autothrottle?
What if your aircraft doesn't have an autopilot with the capability of landing automatically?
It's about minimums.
If your aircraft has autoland capability GREAT!
But, it doesn't mean you can't do Cat IIIa landings without it.

Be careful with your 'info' mate.

Willie :ok:

[Intruder]

It depends on your airline's OpSpecs. Ours (747) require autoland for Cat II AND Cat III. Autothrottles are not required for Cat II. Ours also require an Autoland within the previous 14 days.

A good autopilot can make a good, smooth landing. Some of the 747 Classics do not always fall into that category...

[Denti]

While it is true that CAT II/IIIa does not necessarily require autoland capability this thread was about autoland, not the nice to have backup systems in bigger planes and the only possibility to fulfill the requirements for CAT II/IIIa in smaller ones.

There used to be some recency requirements for pilots (6 autolands in 6 months on the real plane, basicly one each month for both FO and CPT) in my company, however that has ben waived and nowadays simulator training every 6 months is sufficient. If the aircraft needs an autoland to keep its CAT III currency the engineers advise us about it, some airplanes print nice little letters to us about it automaticly too.

[411A]

If you autoland, are the automatics capable of landing the aircraft as smoothly as it can be done manually?
Just a tad better with autoland, with one type...of course it's a Lockheed tri-motor, the best in the business in the autoland department.

Ahhhh, Lockheed.:ok:

[PEI_3721]

411A “with one type...of course”
You clearly lack a wide range of experiences, also apparently a weak knowledge of Ahhh, which belongs to de Havilland.

The Avro RJ (from the de Havilland stable), delivers consistently good auto landings.

In addition, the RJ flight system design eliminates the need for routine proving of the system; any degrade is annunciated to the crew, thus if en-route a diversion can be planned before arming the approach mode. Unfortunately many of the operational certification authorities have difficulty in providing a dispensation from existing inflexible rules.

[411A]

...any degrade is annunciated to the crew, thus if en-route a diversion can be planned before arming the approach mode.

Standard feature on the L1011, from 1972...long before any type of 'RJ' was even thought of...:rolleyes:

[FlightDetent]

Cat II and Cat IIIa do NOT require Autoland capability.:ugh Under certain jurisdictions, i.e. errrr - Europe? - manual landings are restricted to RVR 300 or more. Hence, for CAT III autoland is definitely required.

FD (the un-real)

[Denti]

Europe, or rather EU-OPS allows CAT IIIa to be flown manually. Thats how those CRJs do it for example, but you can have it on nearly every kind of airliner nowadays, you just need a HUGS for it, well, it has to be approved of course, but thats just money.

[411A]

Europe, or rather EU-OPS allows CAT IIIa to be flown manually.
USFAA also...Alaska Airlines was the pioneer in such ops...works good, lasts a long time.

[FlightDetent]

I stand corrected.

[FE Hoppy]

DENTI:

We can't call it HUGS it has to be HUD or HUDLS due to the beurocrats and marketing men.:ugh:

[Denti]

Oh, i stand corrected. Used the term 10 years ago when CLH phased in their CRJs :)

Probably trademarked so everyone has to use its own abbreviation.

[Landroger]

Back in the day, I was a bit of a 'flight deck groupie' and, because I knew a bit about aeroplanes, I was sometimes asked if I wanted to stay for the landing. As if ..... :ok:

Sometime in the early eighties I was on a BA flight from Moscow - B737. During my conversation with the crew, I noticed that it was plated for CATIII and asked how often they did autolands. 'Not often, but let's do one for the practice', came the answer. It was pretty claggy over Beaconsfield that night and you could see aircraft on the approach vanishing into it.

The landing was fascinating and we only came out of the clag just over the threshold. The second before before touchdown, both captain and F/O said; 'Oh sh*t!' followed closely by a mighty bang that tossed documents off a rack behind me somewhere, which I 'fielded' off the throttle console. I wondered if the nose gear leg was coming up through my 'dickie seat'. :eek:

When things got a little less busy, I asked if that sort of landing was typical. They explained that the Trident and BAC 111 did 'greasers' every time, but B737s always did that. The British aircraft were set up for long, long concrete runways and moderate European weather and thus had a very generous flare. The American 'pack horse' on the other hand, had to cope with parking lot sized, indifferent runways in 'Battle Creek Michigan' on snowy nights and a cross wind. In those circumstances, the pilot needed to plonk the mains on the black and white stripes and trip the 'weight on wheels' switches for sure. :)

I don't know how true that is today, but I always thought it made sense at the time.

Roger.

[FE Hoppy]

DENTI:

Exactly correct. One manufacturer objected to HUGS and HGS as they were another ones TM names.

Madness

and now we have "less than CAT l" and "other than CAT ll" in the latest EU ops.

What ever next!!

Roger,
They probably forgot to arm Auto-Land. :}

[Denti]

What the 737 sometimes does is forget to switch to flare, which is something the pilot monitoring should call out but usually is just an "oh sh*t" moment. Haven't seen it on the NG though except in the simulator.

Other than that the older ones usually ended the landing at 4 to 6 feet, the NG does it pretty good and the fail operational ones do it nearly perfect every time round and usually much calmer than most manual approaches.