Do you have a Degree, and do you feel it helped you into your flying job?

[Jazzy78910]

Pretty self explanatory really,

- If you are presently in a flying job and hold a Degree of some sort, how strongly do you feel that your Degree contributed to your success in gaining this employment?
- If you are presently in a flying job and don't hold a Degree, how did you fare getting that job, and do you feel it would have made a difference if you did have one?

Please feel free to also post your opinions and experiences with regards to this.

Jazz

[ZappBrannigan]

I have a degree in a non-aviation-related field, and I have a flying job. It didn't help me get this job, I kind of fell into it after finishing my CPL/MECIR training - staying utterly professional and keeping my nose clean got me this job. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if my current employer was unaware of my tertiary quals.

I am 101% certain that my degree helped me gain previous (non-flying) employment, and will help me again in the future - and this has nothing to do with what I actually studied. I know for a fact that many employers - and this may or may not include most airlines, I can't give an opinion on that - do like that tertiary qualification.

I don't see it helping much in GA, or the beginning stages of GA. Most light charters operators or similar I've spoken to really couldn't care less if you've got a 5-year double degree in Aviation-related studies - it has no bearing on your worth or quality as a charter pilot/instructor/whatever.

[illusion]

A degree may not help you attain or retain a flying job. HOWEVER it will give you options/ choice in life. Unfortunately with the demise of the two airline policy in Australia (good) many of the conditions of service and security of tenature no longer exist (bad).

With a degree (almost ANY degree) combined with industry experience in a regional airline or RPT jet operations, it will open up employment opportunities within the fringes of mainstream aviation eg CASA, ATSB, DOTARS, Airport management etc. So, when you get to the age and stage of wife, kids in high school etc and an airline gives you notice to move somewhere that you do not really wish to be.......or leave............

you may have an OPTION to say NO, I do not wish to move, I WILL leave as I have other options.

A large part of the reason why our terms and conditions are eroding is that MOST in aviation have NO CHOICE but to comply.

Study hard and get a degree, it will be worth gold.:)

[criticalmass]

Yes I do.

No it didn't.

[redsnail]

No degree.
Got a good flying job.

Previous life, beat uni grads to jobs because I had experience. :ok:

[j3pipercub]

Yes, Bachelor Aviation, Griffith Uni.

Did it help me get a job? Yes, from the connections. Ie classmate gave a recommendation to the boss, over other potentials. The knowledge gained in the degree is also invaluable, just not immediately.

j3

[18-Wheeler]

My Dad went to Grade Ten in school, he flew a 727.
I went to Grade 12, I flew a 747.
I reckon if I went to uni I would have been flying the Space Shuttle.
:)


But to answer the question, no, I don't have a degree in anything and it's (apparently) made no difference to me getting a job or not.

[ausflyer]

Hey 18.............
If ya need a gig, send me a PM. Ya attitude is a winner.

Aus' :ok:

[questil]

yes basic science degree worked in an unrelated field for 8 yrs. Always wanted to fly but didnt have the money, in the good old days meant i was too old anyway. Got a good job that paid well saved my money bought a house and paid for my flying.

Due to my experience in my first job i was able to get a gig with a survey company with low hours and also multiskill in the operation.

As a result i took a 2/3 paycut:)

anyway a few yrs later didnt kill myself and flying jets yaaay

[PlankBlender]

illusion, very well put, good advice for anyone starting out!

I've heard the same whinge from aviators on three continents: "If I had the chance to do it again, I'd get a degree and go into aviation as a hobby/afterthought/entrepreneur/second career" (delete as appropriate :hmm:).

It's because of the nature of the beast, a bit like advertising (stay with me here :}): Young starry-eyed kids think it's the dog's b@llocks when it comes to jobs and oh so glamorous, and of course supply and demand then dictate that conditions would be atrocious for newbies, especially in a small industry like in Oz/NZ where there seems to be a never ending supply of budding aviators..

Once the newly minted drivers find their feet in this very specialised, but still trade-like job (as it doesn't usually come with a tertiary qualification), they have a mountain of debt that takes years to pay off, no alternative as the skills are too specific to be transferable to another industry, and until they have enough experience to be marketable (e.g. overseas), or indeed be 'worth' a decent salary, they're well and truly locked in.. add to that wife and kids and the recipe for chronic stress is complete :eek:

The solution? Easy :}: Get the guvmint in the aviation white paper to mandate extension of the CPL syllabus to include general business management, economics, how to run a small business 101, accounting, marketing, tourism studies 101 and some other stuff, then issue a tertiary qualification on the back of the CPL, and offer Fee Help or whatever other assistance programs exist, and Bob's your uncle.

To save the 'overseas student pilot exploitation industry', you could for example offer a stripped-down version without the actual degree, in order to accommodate budget and preserve international competitiveness.

Chance that that will ever happen? Infinitesimal methinks :{ Such a nice idea though ;) Does it have the potential to revolutionise pilot training and maybe even aviation around the world? I bet! Anyway, off to take a cold shower now, the excitement will soon pass :{

[john_tullamarine]

My take -

(a) had a BE(Aero) with useful experience as an engineer. Degree was traded against experience. On my intake, I was the second oldest, as I recall, and the least experienced (flying hours) by far.

(b) a degree is of little direct use to an airline other than for the inference that it suggests the holder can study and pass exams. Depending on the ticket, they may tuck your name away for potential management jobs further down the career track.

(c) ideal way to do things, I suggest, is to get the matriculation, get the flying training, get into the flying job of choice as young as is feasible. THEN, look at doing some other qualification which you find interesting. Either it will give you some sideline work or it may provide some degree of job opportunity if you lose your job on a medical or a 1989 type of event.

I don't think it matters whether you do a trade or degree or whatever .. just keep in mind the fact that flying is a very specialist trade and, if you are out on a medical, in general, there is precious little the average pilot has to offer to employers on the basis of previous flying.

[lk978]

I have a degree in a business law area, currently flying some cool toys and it didnt help me get a job but i have the pleasure of knowig more than most people about stuff :ok:

A uni degree's best use is the chance to chase girls for 3 years in one small place :E

[RR RB211]

The degree (non aviation) got me the job to pay for the flying so the debt levels were manageable.

It may have also looked favourable to the current employer but I don't know for sure. In GA it certainly didn't seem to make much difference if any.

Hopefully I won't need it again to get a non flying job but it's nice to know it's there.

[Muff Hunter]

degree=waste of time.

if you want to fly only, then definate waste of time.

if you want to fly and also get into flight ops management then learn to kiss ass (no degree for that), stab your fellow pilots in the back (no degree for that) and last but not least, have limited ability in general (no degree for that)

[j3pipercub]

Well done Hunter, really productive post there :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[astroboy55]

Degree in Law. Helped me in aviation because without the law degree, i wouldnt have been able to work in a law firm. This job allowed me to save enough to complete all training in 2 years and come out debt free.

I have no doubt it helped when i eventually applied to QF, not because of the actual degree, but because it takes people from all walks of life and backgrounds to work in an airline.

As i have not stayed current with many law changes/updates, it doesnt really help now. The best part is though, with a legal background, you learn how to interpret legal documents. This is good because it provides many hours of laughter when listening to other peoples completely incorrect interpretations/applications/opinions when flying across the pond...:p

[Di_Vosh]

I finished my BSc 23 years ago majoring in Genetics, and Biochemistry.

I never worked in that field; instead I went into banking and found my way into IT around 2 years later. I got the IT job because I had a degree. The company wanted "proof" that I could do some advance study and apply analytical processes to my work. In their opinion, any degree proved this. My degree hasn't helped me get any of my avaition work.

I've never seen my degree as a "backup" and I woudn't recommend anyone to do a degree as a backup.
Firstly, you'd be spending money and around three years of your life doing something that is NOT your first career choice.
Second, a degree without related job experience will have a shelf-life, and some (like mine) were totally out of date after three years of completion. All it may be useful for is getting a look in the door (as was mine); which at three years and HECS is an expensive look in.

DIVOSH advice: ONLY DO A DEGREE IF YOU WANT TO!

Don't waste three years of your life and whatever HECS cash doing something that you don't really want to do (Trust me on this :O)!

If you want to fly, FLY!

If you want to get into aviation management and need a degree to do it, FLY! (Do the aviation degree/MBA/etc part-time later on)

No australian airline currently requires a degree for flight crew, and while that remains, there is little point in getting one until later on in your career, IMHO. :ok:

Degrees are great for some careers, but not others.

Take IT for example. Whilst one guy is off getting a degree, the other started as a lowly IT geek in a computer shop working on computers or perhaps at Harvey Norman. 3-4 years later both these guys go for the same job.

Not sure of your IT background, Martin, but these two guys in your hypothetical wont be going for the same IT job unless the IT Geek did part-time tertiary/TAFE work while at Harvey Norman.

In 2009, no degree/qualification = no IT career.

(I wont pick on your flying examples Martin, but they're not much good either, IMHO).

As far as I've seen, in aviation the most important "qualifications"s are TT, closely followed by endorsement/time on type. A bit of a generalisation, but they would be the top two. Things like degrees come in as "desirable", if at all.

Cheers,

DIVOSH!

[Darkrampage]

I'll jump in here because I am currently undertaking a Uni degree in Aviation.

Very interesting to read the various posts that people have made. One thing that I can immediately see in a difference between degree/no degree in Aviation is that the understanding and depth of knowledge is greater.

For instance if you go through the BAK/PPL book you will get how aerodynamics work etc. etc. but it never delves into the deeper study of aerodynamics. At Uni we have been doing such things as studying the lift equations, drag equations etc. which in my mind gives a greater understanding. One thing that I strongly believe in is that a Uni degree not only is just showing that you have studied something but it shows you that you have a deeper understanding of the fundamental concepts, and also that you have the ability to adapt to changes as they come.

Another thing with the Aviation degree is that we study half a year of Maths and a year and a half of Physics. This in my opinion is annoying but also helps people who many not have studied these subjects at High School, especially with many Airlines looking for these subjects.

Finally the second main reason why I personally am completing this degree, funding. Completing this degree at Uni allows me to simultanously have access to government funding (FEE-HELP) allowing me to get all the way to CPL/CIR. The government lends the money to me to do this however it requires me to be passing my University courses with good marks, another incentive to do well.

It may sound as if I am trying to sell the degree's but at the end of the day everybody has their personal opinion, I couldn't be happier doing what I am doing in my life right now :)

Edit: Oh and by the way Hunter, quality post. I'll be sure to look out for your back to stab at some stage :D

[Wally Mk2]

...........No degree, left school at 17, form 5 (incomplete) Was always at the bottom end of the class in the public school system.
Worked on cars for a while, fueled planes swept floors & now fly in one of the most sought after jobs around..............need a degree? I don't think so! You just need to be determined, there's no degree/schooling in that trait!
Having said that it would pay to have another card up yr sleeve as aviation is now too fragile to rely on as a life job.


Wmk2:)

[Muff Hunter]

darkrampage,

if it makes you feel better to know you have a degree then well done.

but let me tell you.............it's a complete waste of time.

most i fly with don't have them, and the ones that do hardly stand out. further, some of my mates have degrees and have missed out on airline jobs!

however, you do make a good point regarding delving into the depths of understanding lift equations and the like, that'll make for an exciting conversation across the pacific one night whilst you are amazing your fellow aviators..

edit: by the way rampage, make sure i'm not checking you whilst you a stabbing me in the back.

[Darkrampage]

Its ok, I understand that you cant fathom my reasoning and again that's ok.

But what if you decide after flying for x amount of years that you want to delve into the engineering side, aerodynamics and all the like. You then have the pathway open because of it.

However, I do notice you skipped completely over how I said that doing the degree allows me to get my CPL/CIR without having to pay cash or take a loan from a bank.

[Transition Layer]

Do I have a Degree? - Yes (Aviation)

Did it help me get my first job (GA)? - No.

Did it help me get my second/third/fourth job? - Probably Not.

Did it help me get my current job (airline) - I'd say Yes.

[Pilotette]

Do I have a Degree? Yes..BSc (Aviation)
Did it help me get my FIRST job? Yes..as it was a contract the Uni holds
Will it help me again in GA? Probably not..
Will it help me get into the Airlines? Maybe..time will tell

Just do what is right for you. Not everyone is the same and everyone has different reasons for doing what they do.
:ok:

[Darkrampage]

Pilotette...I'm guessing Shark Patrol? :ok:

[Pilotette]

Darkrampage...:ok:

[Chadzat]

The degree itself may not be work 18K in HECS fees :yuk:. But it has certainly helped in getting a wide range of contacts for down the track!

[Howard Hughes]

Do I have a degree? No
Has it stopped me from progressing in my career? No
Do I want a degree? Yes, definitely on my list of things to achieve!:ok:

[Che cows with guns]

I have a law degree and it helps me decipher the Regulations. Also gives me a certain respect from managment at pilot group meetings; I am the pilot representative in our company.
I have not practiced law for 15 years but maintain an interest in the industry. I still have a lot of lawyer friends and they often help with the tricky aspects of the laws relating to industrial actions;that ever changing.
When I joined the airline I now fly for they were impressed withe the fact I had a degree; I think. I feel it has been beneficial. I doubt I could go back to the Law now though.
My advice do a degree. It will help you develop as a person. Uni is fun but expensive now, it was free when I did it. Oh the good old days.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Wally!

LTNS.

Don't want to get you started........ but, you were in our thoughts a week or so ago - night IFR in the Bo with just a touch of ice for good measure!

Anti-thread drift = I have a degree!

Dr :8

[NNB]

DR - I have a degree in patience and patience has helped me the most in flying and dealing with the system:ugh:
blue skies to all
NNB

[Mr. Hat]

Have a degree and no it didn't help at all to get my current job.

My opinion? If you want a flying job and think that the piece of paper will get you ahead of others you are wrong. What the degree will do is put you in contact with people that are in the industry and this can be very helpful/insightful but it won't get you a job. You packing the car will get you the job.

You are better off doing a degree in another profession in case things go wrong.

[no oil pressure]

If you want to make a some money, learn something worthwhile that you'll use for the rest of your GA flying career then do an Aircraft Maintenance Engineering apprenticeship. Do four years or less (compentcy based), come out as a tradesman, 3/4's of the way to an airframe and engine licence and far more knowledgeable than the rest of the 150/200 hour pilots out there.

More importantly, you'll make contacts in the industry and should be able to walk straight into a flying job if you're decent in the hanger. You wont have the problems that the newbies had (starting hot fuel injected engines) as you've had plenty of experience before hand.

More so, if work slows down and the rest of the drivers are being put off and there is a maintenance hanger on the side, roll out the toolbox again and you wont be surviving on centrelink payments.

Worth a look in.

[Morayfield]

I don't have a degree and I don't think that it helps with line flying.

If you want to be a manager at some time during your career do it part time, after you get the flying job that you want. The company that you work for might even pay for it.

Hours for age is still the most important criteria for getting a job in aviation.

[CaptainInsaneO]

Do I have a Degree? Yes..BSc (Aviation)

Did it help me get my FIRST job? Nope

Will it help me again in GA? Doubt it..

Does it make my current job easier? Yup

Will it help me get into the Airlines? Probably..time will tell

Do I regret spending three years studying for the Degree? Not one little bit

If you want a Degree, get a Degree. But if you don't, don't bother even starting it because you will not finish it...there has to be strong motivation.

[mohikan]

I left my degree of my application when applying to LCC's recently because I was advised by the crewing company that was recruiting that (and I quote) "people with degrees expect too much in the way of wages and corporate standards"

Go figure.

[Fonz121]

I don't have a degree but plan on getting one. I personally don't think a degree helps you the slightest bit in getting an aviation job in this country.

If you have candidate A and candidate B both going for an airline job and candidate A has a degree (in whatever) and candidate B doesn't, then I really don't think it will make a difference unless in the unlikely case both candidates are identical in thier sim ride and they have identical personalities. As these are the qualites from which airline pilots get chosen, not a degree.

If you are going to get a degree for whatever reason don't get an aviation one. Unless you want to be some aviation management type then this may help but these days you would probably benefit more with an accounting degree.

The only reason I can see for getting a degree is to have a backup qualification incase you lose your medical or can no longer fly for whatever reason. Thats why I plan on getting one in a different field in the near future.

[kellykelpie]

Just finished a degree through UNSW (Masters Sci & Tech - Aviation). It was not a planned strategy as to 'why do a degree' but rather an "evolving strategy" - see what happens. Ansett had fallen over and I was a 30 something year old SO with QF. I felt I needed to do something to compete if I was out of a job again.

The degree has helped already, more than I expected. The assignments often meant interviewing people who would later hire me in management. Management jobs came up (I took leave of absence from QF to fly in a smaller airline) and people thought the degree must mean I know something (ha ha) so I got the job. This has then led to progression in the flying side (Line Training/TRI) and all of a sudden other opportunities have opened up. This is way more than I expected from the degree.

But that's not all...The other surprising thing is the people I have met through the degree. I may have been exceptionally lucky, but many of the facilitators are either current airline or ex airline managers. It is quite a small community in the Uni/airline world. I feel part of it, which again is way more than I expected.

The Units at UNSW are very interesting. As some of the posters have highlighted, it is not necessary for flying. However the subjects (in the degree I did) are very far from a waste of time for any pilot, airline or other. They are relevant and taught (facilitated) by experts of industry, not just teachers. These are people that have held the highest posts in there departments (and still do in some cases).

I can't recommend UNSW highly enough (I hope it doesn't change).

[4Greens]

It is a good time to fly for the military. Degree, flying etc and they pay you.

[Falling Leaf]

Do I have a degree - Yes
Did it help me get a flying job - No

Why? Piloting is a trade, not a profession.

Because piloting is a trade, within the 'profession' of aviation, you do not need a degree, especially when you are starting out.

However, I totally agree with Kellykelpie, that later in your career, when you have already logged the type of flight time required for another flying job, the qualification and the connections can only help you with a career in management etc, but that's not really about piloting anymore, is it?

From someone who lost their airline job in March, every job site around the world only requires two things: B737, A320 etc Endorsement, and over 500 hrs on type, (plus the ability to work anywhere in the world, be there tomorrow at your own cost, and pay for your own accomodation etc).

[Lodown]

Jazzy, to be fair, you should also ask the same question to the ex-pilots who didn't continue with an aviation career through one reason or another. Many pilots will continue in aviation until their retirement. If you ask these career pilots, many think they could get a management position if their aviation career went belly up. It is extremely unlikely even with a degree.
Many other pilots will seek alternative employment at some stage during their working lives. I know a few people who left aviation for other endeavours. From what I've seen, a degree provides much brighter alternatives even 15 or 20 years after graduation. It might take a while to start moving forward again, but a degree is like insurance or a safety net. Yea, it might take a little more investment to begin with, but it'll be better than gold if you ever need it. If nothing else, it gets you access to a better educated future spouse and you might need the support one day.

[Wally Mk2]

Hi Dr:sad:

Nah yr welcome to that sought of risky flying buddy, ya can't sway me, too comfy these days with my 'non-degree' life comforted by an 'insurance' policy either side of me:ok: Careful there Dr:sad: you will get me banned for speaking without a degree!!:E


"Morayfield".............That's a very true statement, re "hrs for age". I have had that thrown back at me all my flying career getting to where I am today. Having started late in life to be a 'pirot' I never amassed big hrs commensurate with my age.But all my experience was hands on flying, none of this 4000 hrs in the R/H seat of some SE toy plane trying to stay awake being assesed as valuable experience!:). But as I said determination got me where I wanted to go, no more no less:-) We have a mixture of non degree drivers at work as well as good smattering of pilots with degrees, we ALL fly the same & you couldn't tell the ones with or without the useless piece of paper:-)
Unfortunetly a degree is everything these days to some & unfortunetly the streets are full of people with degrees looking for work.


Wmk2:-)

[Dragun]

Wow you'd never be able to tell you don't have a degree Wally...or a high school education I'm betting. :rolleyes:

[Wally Mk2]

'Dragun' the leaders of this country as well as probably all democratic societies are run by people with degrees, need I say more?:rolleyes:

The dream of flight ( as in being a pilot) belongs to those that believe in it the most, not whom has the most 'salad dressing'!:) Higher education is a myth. Remember you only need to read & write English to become a private pilot. The same pilot that flies in the same airspace as the so called degree pilots.

Wmk2

[AvEnthusiast]

But is there any institution which grant you a bachelor degree for aviation experience or flying experience you have?

[eternity]

Every few months, a new thread is created by somebody wondering whether or not to pursue a degree in aviation.

So they put the question out there and the same people reply with the same arguements and the entire thread goes round and round in circles and eventually ends in the same place that every other "aviation degree thread" ends - NOWHERE!!!

It's as simple as this......

Will an aviation degree help you get that coveted airline gig??

Who knows.
It certainly can't hurt. The basic understanding is the more qualifications you have then the better.

BUT...........

Is it worth three years of your life???

Who knows.
As an aviation degree holder I certainly hope so, and almost every other aviation degree holder will attest that it was worth the time.
Because nobody, (including myself), wants to feel that we wasted 3 years.

People who do not have an aviation degree will attest that it is not worth the three years. Because nobody from this group will want to feel that they might have missed out.

Somebody (obviously one of the more wiser pprune posters, unlike the rest of you time-wasters) mentioned that if you want to do a degree then do it. If you do not want to do a degree then don't.

Now, please, for the love of God, leave this thread alone


Eternity................

[j3pipercub]

But it was such good reading till you added the logic part eternity...Even if the three years was a waste, was good fun drinking with ya!:}

j3

[Avpro]

Gained 3 separate degrees from three different universities, including a postgraduate degree. Didn't help me get my first job, nor any subsequent ones. Was more of a hindrance. 9 years spent in full-time study when I could have been building hours gaining experience. Potential employers weren't excitied about someone who's thesis was titled "Reactivity and Cytoxicity of the Bioreductive Cancer Prodrugs SN 23862 and CB 1954."

[lk978]

Maybe they just didn't care...:D (good for you)

I bet you fill forms out with Capt or maybe even Dr dont you.