SO Bypass Pay Case

[luvmuhud]

On the eve of our long awaited chance to have the SO bypass case heard, I'd like to thank the two plaintiff SOs for the significant time and effort they have both put in over the past 6-12 months.

Regardless of the outcome, I know I speak for all my colleagues when I say I really appreciate you both sacrificing your days off to finally have this case brought before the tribunal.

lmh

[SIC]

Hope enough So's ( and any others crew interested ) pitch up tomo to support - and send a message.

Unfortunately I am afraid as usual we will find more crew in bed, bars or on golf courses than supporting these guys......it's the Cathay Way....

[Humber10]

Hopefully there is more than just S/Os that turn up to show support. If this case goes good, then there are others in other ranks that will benefit.

[freightdog188]

http://z.hubpages.com/u/34615_f520.jpg

Good luck, we are all counting on you!

:ok::ok::ok:

see you tomorrow

[Rook]

Sad it's the lowest rank that has to do the standing up at Cx.

[freightdog188]

the hearing continues on tuesday 06/09/2009 at 2:30 p.m.

stop by and show your support!

[Night Watch]

freightdog188 did you go today?

I'm out of town so can't make it.... any chance of an update on what happened today?

[freightdog188]

Not a lot, really. no surprise witnesses, no shouting, nobody yelled "...you can't handle the truth!", and the judge didn't have to bang on his gavel for "ORDER! ORDER!!" ;)

There's nothing that I would want to discuss outside of the courtroom and on a public forum at this time, but you certainly didn't miss anything overly exciting.

[Humber10]

you can also use this link to look up the time and court room for wednesday, under 'labour tribunal' :ok: ;

Court Lists (http://www.judiciary.gov.hk/en/crt_lists/daily_caulist.htm)

[yokebearer]

Nobody won. Awaiting Judgement.

Case went as follows.

Company defense based on denial and confusion with the following a summary of their main points :

1. The fact that we did not complain in the past therefore we should'nt complain now. ( I am not joking - the company man actually said this)
2. That nobody in management is aware of any contract violations. ( Yes every single management witness answered about 90 % of their questions with: " I don't know/ am not aware" etc etc)
3. That after three days of arguments the company is unable to defend the case since they still don't understand what it is we are upset about/claim.
4. That things are more complicated than we think and therefore it cannot be explained to us or the Judge/court.

Up to the judge to now decide whether random company policies and interpretations that continually change take precedence over our contract.

[Farman Biplane]

Any idea on when the judgement will be handed down?
(please, no management like responses!.....I don't know, i am not aware etc)

[Night Watch]

Last day of the case today..... 1430 at the Labour Tribunal, 36 Gascoigne Road, Kowloon

['round midnight]

Now that 9 Airbus JFO courses have been cancelled for August, and that by October there will be only 3 SOs left on BBP, the judgement due on the 3rd July is pretty vital for the financial well-being of many SOs.

Well done Scott, Herman and John Findlay, regardless of the outcome.

'RM

[boxjockey]

Does anyone know what the purpose of the hearing today was? Did they indicate if there could be an earlier ruling, or if it would be on 3 July? Thanks.

box

['round midnight]

Last hearing the judge went through the submissions filed by Scott and CX.
On the 3rd July, Judge will give out a written verdict.
If Scott wins, they'll be another hearing to decide the colour of the money!

[buggaluggs]

Today's the 3rd, what's the word?

[Truman Burbank]

We won!

BBP from 18 months.
F/O conditions from 18 months.

[boxjockey]

Does anyone know if there is going to be back pay, and can someone else please confirm this? Have been waiting a LONG time to hear this news!!

box

[iflylow]

It's confirmed. Won 4 out of the 5 points.

It's about time someone gives them a taste of their own medicine.

[Truman Burbank]

There sure will be back pay. This was the whole reason for the court case. To get money owing for the difference in S/O and F/O pay. Don't forget the additional stuff that goes with it; housing, holidays, and a whole lot of cash that should have been paid from 18 month onwards.

[buggaluggs]

It's going to be a 'sad Tony' Friday! ;) Well done boys! :ok:

[Captain Dart]

Well done boys! In addition, it will be an even sadder Tony if the 49ers win their Hong Kong court case in October! 'Devastated Tony', 'Morose Tony'... the possibilities are endless!

[CXtreme]

The earliest if have ever seen the Friday Telex on Intra CX. Not a word about the court case to the rest of the staff.

Can this mean the end of N.R. knighthood in the Swire Empire as his mission was to get rid of B.B.P.?

The monster they created came back to haunt them.

Well done to the S/O’s involved and my fellow AOA members for the support given.

[Fenwicksgirl]

I believe the PO did say that Freighter extenders will be included, so we got that one aswell!! The only contention that did not sit well with the PO is that SO's should be automatically looked at for up-grade after 18 months, no biggie to lose that one anyway!!!
Come on Sad Tony, how will you spin this one!!!!

[CokeZero]

Well done.

A big thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Tony will mention that he couldn't put down any comments about the case in the weekly update because of time frame commitments for intraCX. Only one word for that. Sounds like Full and smells funny.

[12wheeler]

Nothing to see here!

[wayne_king]

70% membership and climbing. Time for the other 30% to give the AOA (another) go.:ok:

[Fenwicksgirl]

12wheeler, i admire your enthusiasm but why post internal AOA emails here??? The other 30% just need to read these things and not bother joining!! Let them live in the dark and the rumour mill!!

[12wheeler]

I think the other 30% should know "their 70% counterpart" are doing all the fight for them. Anyway, your point taken. I will delete the message!

[Masta of Disasta]

Congrats to all involved especially the S/O's who had the backbone to see this through. I find it absolutely pathetic that it falls on our most junior crew to take on the company. To all those extendees, Oasis DEC's and guys doing "early" (read - out of seniority) freighter commands, who still want to be your best buddy and have a beer at the other end I say no way. You can bend over and cut deals with the company, but do it on your own buddy.

[broadband circuit]

Here's a little snippet from the DFO's update today:

The good news from an individual SO perspective is that the ruling states that the Company should conduct Upgrade Review Boards and assess SO suitability for upgrade prior to hiring Direct Entry FOs, which will likely result in a greater number of SOs being eligible to receive Bypass Pay.

That sounds like good news to the SOs. How is it suddenly "good news" the NR? Isn't that one of the specific things the claimants went to court for?

[bobrun]

Let's keep our head cool and get ready for the next lawsuit!

DEC were clearly a breach of contract; another court case for the AOA to pursue.

Fact is, the only way to deal with the company is through the courts. This case is the proof we need to keep going in this direction.

Congrats to all and the AOA.

[404 Titan]

Masta of Disasta

I think your point should be directed at the company not our fellow pilots and in many cases fellow AOA members. The company created this mess, not the people you are venting your anger at. We are trying to repair the damage done by the company’s very successful divide and conquer tactics of the past so please for all our sakes stop playing into their hands now.

PS: It hasn’t gone unnoticed that this is your first post as a new member. I wonder why?

[Masta of Disasta]

During the past two years certain individuals made a concise decision to shaft their fellow colleagues, and to hide behind somebody else (the company) and to try to blame them is the oldest trick in the book. The damage they have wholeheartedley taken part in cannot be easily undone. They have taken full advantage of a bad situation and now try to feign ignorance.Most of these individuals are not members of the Union and prefer to belong to the "every man for himself" brigade. So be it but don't expect me to give you the rest of the cake.If you decide to make pleasent chit chat or meet up for a beer after then the joke really is on you.

Thats 2 posts

[sioux115]

Can someone take the time and give me a little background on the case? Does this ruling affect new joiners? I heard COS 08' does not have a bypass pay provisions for SO's, is this true? Thanks.

Sioux

[Ex Cathedra]

Well done boys! :ok:

Big thanks to S and H and the AOA!

Unfortunately, the court has become the only 'negotiating' ground with management. Well if that's how they want it...

F/Os, you're up!

[iflyplanes]

Those who can....

Log into HKAOA and download the ruling pdf. scan to page 13....

Look at columns 9 and 10.

There you will find the total number of people triggering BPP and the total number of SO/s who were receiving BPP. I think you will agree the two numbers are very disparate.

For the FO case you can add the columns named "Pax Capt over 55" and "Frtr Capt over 55" - and this is the number of triggers for FO's at those dates on the sheet. If you are within this band during any of those dates then you should have been receiving BPP for extended captains.

IFP

[rick.shaw]

Ex C. Your are, unfortunately, quite right. The company only seems to listen to sense when it is delt out by the courts. Whether it is with pilots or cabin crew, it is still the same. A large number of SO's and FO's will be happy for this ruling.

Cathay just need to get over it and get on with it and stop shirking their contractual obligations. Way more than my 4 months SLS money has gone into this court case alone. My taking SLS is supposed to help the company as a whole - not to fund them defending their mismanagement.

I did have a wry smile on my face when the DFO mentioned the single SO. Does this mean that every SO or FO will have to make a case individually? I wonder. If the company forces this issue, then mega (bad) publicity will be the only way to solve this one I suspect. I would encourage each and every eligible SO and FO to jump on the band wagon. To do otherwise will only cost you money and the numbers will give impetus to the case as a whole.

[bobrun]

It's funny how the last company update states that it was a complex issue since the ruling is 24 pages long.

How many ruling has he seen that are shorter than that! I actually thought "24 pages" meant the opposite. 24 pages is quite short I would say! The ruling is straight forward and easy to read. They were told they were wrong and acted against our contract, they knew about it but yet they are still trying to hide somewhere. An apology, rather than childish excuses, would be more appropriate at this point.

It's a great satisfaction to win and have justice done. But it exposes what kind of management we are working for. Sad.

[SIC]

Someone mentioned that DEC's are in breach of our contract and that should make a nice court case too - well I like that idea. The more the better.

Secondly - not to stir the pot here - but can the sudden joining of LEP's have something to do with the SO and coming FO bypass cases - are they jumping on the train now before it leaves the station only because they see a possible gain for themselves..... ???

Lastly - Interesting thing in the update yesterday - LEP 's now get education assistance - wonder why the company would suddenly decide to give something? Feeling pressure?

[Fenwicksgirl]

LEPs jumping on board now because they have finally seen the light. Fed up with false promises from DFO they finally can see how being amongst the majority will help their cause. Coincidentally the same week they join, DFO offers CEA!!! Happy for the LEPs to come on board but guys remember there is more to this than just housing and CEA, we need your long term commitment for any chance to improve things across the board!!!
A good week for the AOA, bad week for Flaps10 , squawk7700, iLuvPX etc!!!

[broadband circuit]

Sorry chaps, AOA members will recall a recent email from the president, dated 30 June 2009, stating that :

it is wrong to distinguish between local and other pilots.

and :

As such the HKAOA will refer to them as Cadet Entry Pilots (CEP).

As a result, since 30 June, I have been referring to these new members as CEPs

[Flap10]

A good week for the AOA, bad week for Flaps10 , squawk7700, iLuvPX etc!!!

here is goes that little poodle barking from a distance again!!!!!

Good win for the AoA, I'll give credit where credit is due! However, a bit comical when 99% of AoA members took SLS. Who do you think just funded the court case?? Who do you think is going to be out of pocket?? The company, or the lot of you that gave 16% of your salary back to the company.

You can puff your chest out now, but you can hide behind AoA lawyers only for so long, when the company starts playing hardball, are you going to stand your ground, or cave in like you did with the 49ers, SLS, etc.....

Talk is cheap, I'll see where you stand when the sh!t hits the fan.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Flap10, you're rather a malignant little creature aren't you...?:yuk:

[boxjockey]

I'm sure he took SLS just like everyone else...

box

[Flap10]

Apple Tree Yard

I hope your balls are bigger than your mouth, but judging from your previous posts, I would certainly say NOT!

boxjockey

Would you carer to make a wager on that??

[12wheeler]

Secondly - not to stir the pot here - but can the sudden joining of LEP's have something to do with the SO and coming FO bypass cases - are they jumping on the train now before it leaves the station only because they see a possible gain for themselves..... ???

This kind of attitude is EXACTLY the reason why many LEP/CEP did not want to join the AOA in the first place. Do you know how long it took to organise and motivate a hundred CEPs to join the union? Yea, the CEP could predict the AOA would win the court case long time ago. ALL of them including the CEP Captains are entitled to the bypass pay too?? Huh?? :ugh: The chance is you probably don't need to be a member to get backpay if the court case is won anyway.

I think you owe the CEPs a public apology.

[Loiter1]

Guys, this is only the first round. They will appeal and the Swire lawyers will now fight over every last detail and interpretation. I am happy too, but be ready for a fight. These bast@#ds don't give anything up without a fight.

[Fenwicksgirl]

At least the CEPs joined, they could have sat back let us do all the work and then organize themselves a lawyer etc.
Flaps10, welcome back, your absence was noted, thanks for your negativity in this otherwise positive forum for the pilots as a whole. You give credit then lambast the very organisation who worked hard at this court case. SLS whether you like it or not was a reasonable step in the current climate, sure the company muddied the waters but look around and read the papers, alot of crap going on in the world.
Anyway, you can grizzle all you want as you normally do.
Well done again SW and AOA, if anything else we have proved to the company they can't get away with everything!!!!

[Dragon69]

SLS whether you like it or not was a reasonable step in the current climate, sure the company muddied the waters but look around and read the papers, alot of crap going on in the world.

Please tell me you are joking???? :eek::eek:

So you actually volunteered for SLS believing all the propaganda about the company being in a cash crisis, but yet you revel at the fact that the company will now have to spend more and don't seem to have a problem with the company wasting valuable funds on a case that the SOs and FOs were rightly entitled to?????? You make so much sense???

I think you're prepping yourself for another round of shafting, or maybe trying to justify the reasons why you volunteered for SLS, at least be a man and fess up to the real reasons why everyone volunteered for SLS! :yuk: you give a lot of credence to Flaps10!

[canadianna]

So what does all this mean?

It's easy to say that the SO's won the case, but at the end of the day the company will now have to pay all eligible SO's as JFO's. Fine.

But what will they do next? Have 60% of the SO's making JFO wages? Will Cathay decide that it's too expensive and upgrade all the SO's to JFO? I mean at least they can be utilized as more than a seat warmer. After all if they are already paying them as JFO's, well then they may as well be JFO's...

No?

[geh065]

Goes back to the company's intention of scrapping the S/O rank anyway. If they are all being paid JFO rates might as well make them work!

[BusyB]

Have a look at this.

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy38/intelligentpilot/Standardarticle.jpg
:ok:

[Ex Cathedra]

After all if they are already paying them as JFO's, well then they may as well be JFO's...

Not a chance, as that would make too much sense.

What would I do now if I was management...? hmmm... Let's see:

Appeal the hell out of every verdict that comes on the matter for the foreseable future, even if that cost me more than the actual BPP, and offer all the SO's on the case immediate upgrades in return for dropping the case, and threaten to delay their upgrades indefinitely/fail their assessments if they refuse.

...Yeah, sounds about right. :}

[don-one]

Good to see you guys up there have a win..... well done!

[SMOC]

Secondly - not to stir the pot here - but can the sudden joining of LEP's have something to do with the SO and coming FO bypass cases - are they jumping on the train now before it leaves the station only because they see a possible gain for themselves..... ???

I'll think you'll find it was due to the SLS scheme again putting CEPs in the "Local" bag when it suits them and/or the "pilot" one when it suits them as well, this time leaving them to pay rent/mortgages from $0 salary for longer because they are pilots!. At the same time offering training cadet schemes with the full expat package and international cadets with an improved package. Whatever channels they used obviously came to naught, they got their sh*t together as a group which must have taken some work, 90+ guys joining the AOA on the same day! :D

[Flaps10]

Hey Fenwicks,

Before you start slagging someone, make sure you get their name right. I'm Flaps10 and if you read my post history you'll see that I am NOT the one you are referring to.

Flap10 is the one you are after!

He's the one in the wrong, it's "FLAPS10", not "FLAP10" as my trainers have pointed out! Or wait, is it the other way around? :eek:

as I've been on PRUNE a couple of years longer...perhaps FLAP10 should change his username! :8

Cheers all...

P.S. Here's one for the rumour mill. On my flight the other day it was mentioned, (by someone with ties to management) that CX is gearing up for layoffs in late August early September. 10% by order of seniority. :bored:

[Fenwicksgirl]

Flaps10, absolutely right, my apologies sir, i should have checked!!

Dragon69, not trying to justify, convince or anything else. I saw the rationale in what the AOA was saying. Considering the current economic climate, this was not a fight worth taking on at the moment. I did not like it any more than you but i can see the benefit in moving on and fighting other battles. Point in case the SO BPP!!

Anyway, this thread is about success and a win for the AOA!! I was hoping for even the most negative of our bretheren to at least acknowledge that, otherwise they are surely just hoping we fail so as to prove their negative points!

[Air Profit]

Let's put a stop to a vicous rumour right away: categorically, definately, positively the company is NOT planning to lay off any pilots. The loads are high, the yield is starting to increase and the cost of laying off and rehiring is astronomical. They just went through the charade of SLS to PREVENT layoffs. What hope would they every have in the future if they layed off staff just after saying that SLS was to prevent it. If anything, they will start hiring again early in the new year. Ps, some nice shiny new a/c are close to being ordered. :ugh:

[geh065]

Flaps10,

I have heard the same, from someone in the finance department. People have already been 'chosen'. I don't think pilots will be involved but certainly some ground staff being shed.

[iflyplanes]

Front page iconnect:

"From now until 3 August, all eligible ground staff will receive an email explaining what the Organisation Alignment Survey (OAS) 2009 is about and instructions on how to access it.

This survey is part of CX's commitment to take your inputs into account when planning and executing strategic decisions so please take this opportunity to tell us your views and suggestions."


Is that not restructuring coming your way ground staff?!?!?

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Let's put a stop to a vicous rumour right away:


Mmm..let's NOT. There are pilots in CX such as DEC's who should NOT be in this company, and who are the 1st in line when unavoidable redundancies will be taking place later this year..as stated.:yuk:

BPP is a BIG issue in CX. After the latest SOs' victory in the courts, a LOT more BPP will have to be paid, let alone all the hundreds of FO's in line for more of the same..

So, cathay management has 2 choices here to avoid SO BPP:

upgrade all SO's to JFO's (unlikely due to lack of trainers,slots etc.) OR
furlough/lay-off excess pilots (in strict reverse seniority)There will definately NOT be another round of SLS,unfortunately the only options are the ones above..

I say "unfortunate" as I certainly DON'T wish this on anybody.But then again that's the chance you take when you join a company at the bottom of a seniority list. 98% of staff has done what they could to avoid redundancies, but cannot be expected to keep on doing this.

End august/early september is correct,they will start with the bottom 150 for the 1st round.:eek:

Lets hope that things around the world improves enough BEFORE then!!!:ok:

[iflyplanes]

Well if that class D rumour is the case then of those 150:

16 DEC's
82 DEFO's
52 SO's

would be affected/released.

[Air Profit]

Ad Posse, all you are trying to do is scare monger. There is NO, I repeat NO plan to lay off any pilots. The only departments that are at risk are the ground staff (as was the case in 99). Keep dreaming that your 'hit list' of undesirables is vulnerable, but it isn't the case. Any pilot that is concerned can go and speak to the fleet offices. The whole point of SLS was to ensure that there would be NO layoffs. I suggest Ad Posse you stick to starting rumours about your STD. :ok:

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Air Profit, my dear chap:

It always amazes me that there are happy-go-lucky people in the world,such as yourself.
All moonlight and roses right?Recession - what's that?
Airlines laying staff off? Never heard of it....

Here's a quick glimpse as to what happens in an economic downturn.

In order to preserve cash, a company has 2 choices:

lay-off staff (as per your contract) - longer term solution;
other means ie SLS,voluntary leave etc. - short term solution.Time is a very important factor here, as nobody knows how long any recession will last. You are quite right about the introduction of SLS, in order to prevent lay-offs.

However, by the middle of this year we will be one year into the recession. There are still NO indications of things getting better, so companies are now starting to look at longer-term solutions, such as the 1st point above.

There will be NO 2nd round of SLS, as fewer than 5% off all staff will be willing to take part. So I'm afraid that leaves us with one option only, as unfortunate as it might be...

No manager (as stupid as some of them are!) will confirm redundancies before it is actually announced in september. My information, btw, comes from much higher up than your fleet office..:eek:

[Air Profit]

Tell you what Ad....let's see what happens by the end of the year. I am very confident that not a single pilot will be layed off. And my info comes from just about the highest level (that's the wonderful thing about playing company sponsored cricket...!).

[4 driver]

I don't think anyone know what will happen beyond a few months including both of your "contacts".
Things change very rapidly in aviation both for better or for worse....so don't hang your hats on any claim made by anyone you play cricket with or have a pint with cause it will change next week.

[airplaneridesrfun]

Rumor and banter like this is a good reason to not use this board, and instead post insight under your own name on a more secure board.

I'm not sure how the last few posts relate to BPP. Too many negative (possible mgt.) people on this board trying to get you to expect less, when we should be looking forward as a team that is going to be successful.

I am a hypocrite for posting, because I despise half of what is said here as it is noise, and not real information (unless you actually believe it). CPA tactical management (FOP) knew they had to pay BPP, but tried to get away with it. The worst that could happen is that they had to go to the labor tribunal. In the mean time they are getting to keep money owed to S/O's, and FO's. I am deeply greatful for SW keeping the company honest, and protecting our contracts. I hope the people in charge of the FOP department can now follow our own vision to be a socially responsible company; after all, that is one of the core mission's of the organization. "If you don't know where you are going, you will never get there"; but the CPA vision statement sets what we are trying to do clearly. A good read for any managers on this board, as each vision statement is mutually inclusive.

[NoAndThen]

Someone please explain how they're going to lay off pilots when we're not parking any airplanes and we still have how many airplanes coming? Does anyone spreading those rumors know how huge of a training footprint that would cause? Let's just say you'd finish retraining everyone just in time to recall everyone.

It makes absolutely no sense. Management has even pointed out that both cargo and pax yields have stabilized, albeit at a low level, so why lay off now?

And explain again how you're trying to relate this to S/O BPP? There's only maybe 200 S/Os on COS99 (and therefore eligible for BPP due to this Labor Tribunal decision) and an extra 10 grand or so for them is just a drop in the bucket for CX.

[CMOTDibler]

CX ordered to compensate suspended promotion pilot Source: HKET (A18, Jul 4)
The Labour Tribunal ordered the Cathay Pacific Airlines to compensate a pilot a total of HK$270,000 for the suspension from promotion. Scott Williams, a second officer (civil aviation) from CX said he was suspended from promotion, 18 months after joining the company, which against the conditions stated in his employment contract. Williams filed a Labour Tribunal claim. The Tribunal said last Friday (July 3) that the airline recruited over hundred of first officer (civil aviation) in year 2007 and 2008 in order to reduce training costs and also extended the pilots’ retirement age, resulted a lack of promotional opportunities for the second officers. The Tribunal ordered the Cathay Pacific Airways to pay HK$270,000 to Williams for compensation. The airline is now seeking legal advice in considering whether to appeal the case.


Yeeeeaaahh Baby. Now that's what I'm talkin about! :D
And nothing less than he deserves, apart from his promotion of course. I would assume that Scotty has everyone's vote for re-election to the committee.

[CMOTDibler]

Slightly more than the 10 Grand you mentioned NoandThen.
Lets see 200 or so x $270,000 or there abouts = serves you right CX WaDS.
Now we wait to see the "positive" for the company that the only the DFO can see.

I think now we will see a bit more lawyer action from CX so don't all you S/O's go out buying toys just yet.

[TheHKAOA]

Actually, there was no such order. The case dealt with the principle only. The amount of any claim is yet to be decided.

[geh065]

NowandThen,

Unfortunately the retirement of four A340s this summer has already been announced by the DFO in his newsletter..or was it the Airbus one? Three pax 747-400s will leave this winter. I believe two-three 777-300ERs will be delivered this year though, and a new BCF arrived today. Might be a couple of A330s arriving too this summer. Guess that sort of evens out a little although we are still losing seven long haul planes and gaining only three to four.