What are those planes doing?

[Ancient Observer]

I'm not sure that I'm allowed in to the hallowed precincts looking for advice, as I was in admin before I retired, rather than in a control room, but here we go......... I live NNW of lhr, a place called Farnham Common, and deliberately chose to live here 20 odd years ago as it was close to lhr, yet not disturbed too much by planes - (except BA's version of the 747-400 which has always been noisy). Anyway, yesterday and to-day a very flashy looking Exec jet went over my house heading South down the A 355. It was rather low. Presumably right thru the lhr controlled zone. It was too big and flash to have come from Denham, so I guess it was Northolt.
Any thoughts?
thanks
Ancient.

[ATCO Two]

There was a RAF BAe125 training in the Northolt circuit on runway 07 yesterday. That would be the traffic you saw.

[Ancient Observer]

Thank you. I didn't recognise the plane type - it seemed stretched cf other 125.s, and it had winglets. The RAF's website piccies of 125's don't have winglets, but maybe they just used some other one. I thought it must be special to go in to the jealously guarded airspace around lhr.
Thanks for the reply.

[StainesFS]

I'm on a sickie today which has given me the chance to have my SBS radar box on. Earlier today, there were two military "business jet"-sized aircraft in the area. One was indeed a BA HS125 CC3 with registration 7D620. The other aircraft, which does have winglets, was a Bombardier Sentinel R1 with the registration ZJ691.

I suggest you google these registrations for photographs and see which one is the one you observed.

SFS

[StainesFS]

A further thought. The Bombardier was tracked continuously from 11.25 to 16.50. The HS125 was only tracked for a short time, between 10.03 and 10.08.

SFS

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I thought it must be special to go in to the jealously guarded airspace around lhr.>>

Nothing special about it, nor is it "jealously guarded" airspace. Northolt and Heathrow traffic is coordinated by standard procedures. As Northolt was landing towards the east the aircraft would have been on a base leg before turning on to final approach at Northolt.

[Ancient Observer]

Thanks. On one day, it looked like this. On the second day, I did not have such a clear view.
Thanks, all.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/astor/images/astor_radar1.jpg (http://www.pprune.org/projects/astor/)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

But it may not have been the same aeroplane. Northolt is quite a busy airfield with both military and civilian "business" jets, many of which resemble the one in your picture.

[abracadabra28]

Global Bomb-express; although in this guise it is the sentinel R1

[Ancient Observer]

Thankyou for all the replies.
One of the points in my first posting was that for 2 days in succession, jet aircraft had been in places in the sky above where I live, when I had seen no jet aircraft in those places before. The only things that fly down the A355 are some of those big heli-jobs out of Denham. (?Queens flight?) and I know they ask ATC for the OK. I've never seen jet planes in that place before. Maybe the odd single engine prop. out of Denham, but not jets........
As an aside....
ZJ691 used to be painted a very boring light grey, presumably to reduce how often it was noticed. The one I saw had a much flashier appearance, so if it was ZJ691, someone from MoD has splashed out on a flash paint job.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Ancient Observer.. QF helicopters do not operate from Denham unless they visit there during a royal visit. I presume that QF still operate Wessex helicopters; if so, they are very bright red in colour. There are other fairly large helicopters, both civil and military, flying around the area where you live and into and out of Northolt. Specific routes are promulgated for helicopters, although twin-engined ones can fly off those routes just like any other aeroplane. The route which is close to you starts near Cookham, then directly to Iver, then south to West Drayton. The route passes roughly E-W just over a mile sputh of you. A helicopter seen heading south over your house would almost certainly be making an approach to Northolt similar to one conducted by a fixed wing aircraft. I.e. about a mile south of you it would turn on to final approach for the runway. The final approach in that direction has a "kink" in it to keep Northolt traffic clear of Heathrow traffic landing on runway 09L as the Northolt runway is some 30 degrees different from the Heathrow runways, the tracks converging to the west of Heathrow.

Hope that helps..

[Monkey Madness]

Spot on with the airspace HD, though the QF has now disappeared in to history.

32 (The Royal) Squadron based at RAF Northolt does some of the heli tasking using A109E's, whilst the rest is outsourced (iirc) to a company operating SK76's

MM

[Ancient Observer]

Thanks, all.

HD has clarified for me. I wonder why I've never seen the jets doing that before.......?

Yet another aside - I wonder whether NATS/CAA has figured out whether or not to close Northolt when lhr gets another runway? MoD and those with privileged access to Northolt will be unhappy if it goes......

Ancient.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Monkey Madness... I thought as much. I believe they use some of the helis based at Blackers... XXEA, etc.

[Monkey Madness]

Aye, them be the ones! :ok:

Yet another aside - I wonder whether NATS/CAA has figured out whether or not to close Northolt when lhr gets another runway? MoD and those with privileged access to Northolt will be unhappy if it goes......

NATS/CAA have no say over the future of Royal Air Force Station Northolt - it's purely a matter for the MoD. There are various plans already being looked at to enable both airfields to continue working as they always have done.

Thread drift: Bit of history... RAF Northolt is 94 years old, and the oldest operational airfield in the MoD. At one point it was "The London Airport" whilst LL was being built, and had 6 runways!

[Ancient Observer]

The future of Northolt is not in the hands of the MoD at all. HM Treasury will decide its future. You don't think that lhr runway 3 got passed by the strength of the DfT?? It was HMT, not DfT that argued for it on Economic grounds.
If the CAA say that NATS cannot produce safe airways from R3, then HMT will decide to close Northolt on Economic grounds. End of. They'll sell it off for housing.
RAF can then go to Wycombe or further west - it has no current Mission based need for Northolt.
A bit like lhr, it is there by historic accident.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Ancient Observer. Very interesting, but the RAF have great power over Northolt. For many years we wanted the Northolt Approach Control to be combined with Heathrow but the RAF wouldn't have it. Even when all the Approach Contrls for London area airfields were moved to West Drayton.... Northolt remained independent and whilst Northolt is open the RAF control the northern half of the London Control Zone! As for the RAF moving to Wycombe, I believe there are questions about that place and, in any event, it's unsuitable for what goes on at Northolt.

[Monkey Madness]

very well put HD:ok:

[Ancient Observer]

I respectfully suggest that whilst NATS power over RAF is low, HMT's power is more or less total.
Currently, HMT decides what flying gizmos the RAF can have, and when. For instance, do the RAF actually want replacements, for, say, Pumas? Of course they do. Who decided how many new jet toys RAF would get? Not the MoD!!
If Northolt gets in the way of R3, HMT will decide.
It might not be an issue if NATS/CAA figure out how to Safely use Northolt and R3, but if they can't, then HMT will win. My (1975) wall-covering OS map of the area suggests to me that it will be difficult.

Thanks for all your replies, I'd better get off your site now!