FUEL EMERGENCY at Dubai airport

[fly737]

Guess what, yesterday 4 fuel emergencies were declared at almost the same time...Dubai was apparently asking 15 miles separation (nothing in the notams) for all the inbound metal tubes and aircrafts were stuck in every holdings around the airport.
Having said that, are you really going to take extra fuel or maybe prepare an ASR for every single flight going back to Dubai these days…
Don’t forget guys, ASR might be a solution to cover your ass (or not)... But never forget that you are responsible for hundreds of lives at the end of the day.

Fuel policy is only there for a legal aspect….:ugh:

[Panther 88]

I certainly hope when they declared their emergency that they made sure they landed below final reserve. If not, then they will be asked (mandated) to come in and have explained to them the fuel policy.

Twelve a/c in the hold over Desdi from f150 to f310. The stress in the voices of the pilots was very evident. Why put yourself in that position....ADD THE GAS. The weather was perfect, the runway never changed. WTFO?

[Schibulsky]

Situation from the ground: The 4 EK flts declaring the fuel emergency never bothered to call NCC for assistance, so they screwed up all the other flts who were in the hold.:ugh: They had called in cause ATC never issued an estimated time of app, got handling at altn SHJ confirmed and were actually relaxed with that additional fuel... until they got more holding due to the emergencies :eek:
Sorry guys, but IMHO that was poor operational awareness from the crews declaring emergency!
You all should be aware of whats the game at DXB at peak times:\

[mensaboy]

Actually, according to our fuel policy,

''If at any time, it becomes apparent that the aircraft MAY land with less than Final Reserve, a PAN call to ATC must be made, reporting fuel remaining in minutes.

If at any time........... the aircraft WILL land with less than Final Reserve, a MAYDAY call to ATC must be made..............''

Taking extra fuel is the best option and there has not been one instance when a pilot has been 'disclipined' for taking a reasonable amount of extra fuel.
DIVERT when in doubt, Committing to destination in Dubai is not exactly a great idea, for various reasons.
And as a final option, declare an Emergency.

The company has fostered an atmosphere that is causing pilots to second guess even their most benign decisions. This 'fear' culture does not work in the world of aviation. Fuel is one area, where being conservative if in doubt, should be the only policy.

By the way, out of curiousity, what time of day did all of this happen?

[Count von Altibar]

Guys don't succumb to the management pressure, they're not up there with you as you save fuel by not carrying enough and then end up taking undue risks. As the post above mentions, play it conservative always.

[pool]

Schibulsky

Allthough I sympathize with your comment, the last time we asked NCC for assistance, we got nothing usable and the trickle came too late anyway.
At the debriefing it was stipulated that they were understaffed to provide flight watch. They could only step in once we are in trouble.

To say someone screwed up "the others" when running into an unexpected fuel shortage is not very useful aswell.

It is management who pressure us to save fuel at our very own risk (no symathy for the ones running into trouble, just warning letters), shoving any assistance onto you guys who are desperately understaffed and undertrained, but they themselves do squat to improve the real problem, meaning -> ATC coordination and airport management, which are both in their responsibility. But that would mean balls, work and (god forbid!!) money ....

Don't shoot at each other guys, shoot at the real culprits, meaning EK management, Dnata and the DGCAA/GCAA.

[Schibulsky]

pool
I am absolutely on your side and I know who the responsible morons are.
It would be just a bit more "professional" if you later can tell the monday quarterbacks that you exhausted all your options b4 declaring emergency.
And I would not call it an "unexpected" fuel shortage, you should know your numbers well ahead.
And you are right about the staff situation at the NCC...another one down when I leave end of summer :p
P.S. I am and was always happy to put some more fuel on...on the house:ok:

[flareflyer]

Dear Schibulsky,

are you really leaving at the end of the summer?
I am very happy for you (and a bit envious :}) and i wish You all the best out of the sandpit

Flare

[Schibulsky]

Yep...signed my new contract and typed the resignation:ok:
5 months...one more summer and one ramadan to go :\
Just got enough of this :mad: madhouse/kindergarten :yuk:
Wish you all the best and dont let the f:mad:s get you down!
p.s. anybody looking for a nice Pajero? ;)

[Canoehead]

Its really quite simple. DXB has two peak arrival times: the first between 5:00 am and 7:00 am, the other between 9:30 pm and 1:00 am, local times. If you are scheduled to arrive around those times, carry extra fuel, because you will hold or at east spend a few extra minutes on vectors. Your managers should be forgiving; these hours are known to them, after all, they do the scheduling...
Outside of those times, minimal delays could be caused by single runway ops or a runway change due to winds. Hope this helps.

[BDD]

How many runways does DXB have?

[BigGeordie]

The AIC entitled "Aeroplanes inbound to the UAE with fuel reserves approaching minimum" dated 04 October 2006 is still valid and says:

3. The information concerning delays that is passed to the crew by the controller is the best available at the the time and takes account of the expected volume of traffic at the aeroplanes estimated arrival time. If the information available to the controller indicates a reasonably easy flow of traffic, and Estimated Approach Times (EAT) are not being issued for the destination aerodrome, the response to a request about delay will be 'No delay expected'.

3.1 NO delay expected means in these circumstances:

'DO not anticipate being required to remain in a holding pattern longer than 20 minutes before commencing an approach'.

I'm not a management genius but in the real world I take this to mean always arrive with at least 20 minutes holding fuel. This would especially apply during the peak times mentioned above. Management know about the AIC, the just don't publicize it.

[Scooby Don't]

Dubai has 2 runways, operated as dependent parallels (as in, take offs from the right are subject to spacing between arrivals on the left, to protect the go-around path).

Assuming 5nm gaps on final at 160kts, there is nothing unusual about 15nm spacing through DESDI and BUBIN at 250 or 230kts. Yes, 15 miles through each gate equals 7.5 miles on final, but only if you can all do 250kts to the threshold. No? Thought not. So....15 miles is normal through the arrival gates. If you have a go-around in the mix or if flow has not been imposed soon enough, larger spacing will be requested until the situation stabilises because, as many of you will be aware, the alternative is being vectored an extra 30 miles.

Until the operators stop scheduling flights to arrive ALL at the times mentioned by Canoehead, there will always be holding at DESDI and BUBIN at those times. While there are probably more go-arounds at Dubai than at comparable airports (thanks mainly to the GCAA requirement for double the ICAO-standard runway separation) and these add to the delays in the hold, the biggest single issue is the glut of arrivals at certain times. Incidentally, the preponderance of similar callsigns does not help!

[NO LAND 3]

I don't carry extra fuel into Dubai unless there's fog or TS - holding for half an hour still gets me on the ground with around 45 mins fuel remaining. Personally I actually think guys are way too early to call "Bingo".
If you are in the hold at Desdi you don't need to commit or divert till you get down to about 5.5 tonnes or so, less if its 12. Practically speaking you don't have to commit to Dubai as you can go direct to Sharjah or RAK at nearly any point in the hold or approach. And if you are holding at Bubin you are overhead Fujairah.
You just have to accept the very faint possibility you may end up in one of these places and you can relax.
Standing by for incoming...

[BDD]

Scooby,

Thanks for the info.

[Saltaire]

No Land 3, so you happily land with 4 tons in the Airbus or 4.5 in the 777? You have bigger coconuts than most...why would you even want to think about the faint possibilty of RAK,FUJ and the like? I would feel a lot more relaxed with a little extra smart fuel in my pocket. The last thing anyone wants, especially in the back is a relaxing diversion...:confused:

[CAVnotOK]

Arrive at any of the peak times in DXB have the extra 20mins up your sleeve.

It's just not worth the stress when you are also operating under fatigue.:cool:

[leftseatview]

i agree with NO LAND 3,
as i see it there are 3 options...

1) Carry the extra holding fuel that you need, BASED ON a) a good understanding of the local peak traffic situation(after all DXB is EKs home base,and they should have some idea about what happens there everyday)
b)Mention obscure/concealed notam/AIC.
Realistic extra fuel uplift based on above, is/should not be questioned by any mangement.

Some times a strict fuel uplift policy is actually based on the understanding that the occassional diversion might actually take place....but the overall savings in reduced fuel burn for the entire fleet easily offsets that cost.

2)Hold till you get to your MDF(min diversion fuel) and then push off to AUH or wherever, with the minimum of fuss.
Rest assured that if enough such diversions happen the company bean counters will tweak up the fuel uplift (Which makes me wonder if this event was a "concerted action" to acheive that objective)

3)Do as NO LAND 3 suggests.
i suspect that the only problem with this, is the reluctance to accept the very faint possibility of ending up in SHJ/RAK/FUJ( " GET-HOME-ITIS" is perhaps understandable after a longish flt)

Declaring all kinds of emergencies might be OK as per company SOPs,but i think it just makes for a "My problem is now your/everyones problem" solution.

[fatbus]

The guys with the big balls are those who dont take any extra gas, dont commit and go to the ALT . Thats when the company reacts because it cost them big money .

Company policy right now is no extra gas , the capt does not have to commit so off to the Alt.

Also dont trust NCC they will say anything to keep you heading for DXB, talk to SHJ/RAK/ALN your self to make sure they will take you.

[kotakota]

I was doing the redeye from Doha to Muscat a couple of days ago and there was a degree of tension going on at AD . Lots of EATs being lengthened and talk of diversions imminent .Is it always like this at dawn or was there an unexpected VVIP ?
Note to self - not a lot of alternates in the Gulf when it is manic - weather or no weather . I know one thing , when there IS weather about , I carry Salalah fuel , it is always gin clear in the 'winter'.

[Payscale]

If the GCAA tell you to bring 20 min extra to DXB at all times, who are to say no. Dont you follow the alchool limits either......

[NO LAND 3]

so you happily land with 4 tons in the Airbus or 4.5 in the 777?

Er...yeah.
Not quite sure why, in good weather and with a radar environment, you think landing with 45 minutes endurance remaining is particularly brave? Particularly with Sharjah right next door (if you have a fuel emergency they WILL take you) and half a dozen other runways in relatively close proximity throughout the approach.
I've been here longer than most and the lowest fuel I've had on touchdown was 4.6 tonnes after a 25 minute hold. In my experience I don't usually get a hold and if I do its rarely more than 15 minutes. And ATC as good as anywhere given the constraints they work with.
I would be disappointed if anyone declared a fuel emergency when it wasn't necessary and jumped the queue just to satisfy a misplaced sense of "superior airmanship". If it was that serious you should have diverted to SHJ, RAK or AAH from the hold 10 minutes ago. After all, the fuel required to get
to RAK, SHJ or DXB is pretty much equal from DESDI.
Believe me - if I think extra fuel may be needed I take it - and then some. But I get tired of guys blindly wanting to put on an extra tonne "for the rush hour" because its become common practice.

[ekpilot]

If you have been here longer then most of us NOLAND3 you should be wise enough not to tell others how to run their business.

Keep Discovering:ok:

[break dancer]

As mentioned previously, the company know that there are 2 peak arrival times, so why don't they just put on the fuel for holding in the CFP?Because they're just passing the buck and making us justify our decisions.
So yeah we play the game, and like NL3, I just take the fuel if adverse WX forecast, and not for "traffic" I've yet to divert due traffic, but am fully prepared to do so. Again, if enough aircraft divert, that will surly get the company's attention.

[Panther 88]

I think you guys are missing the point of this whole event. Yes, it is no problem finding a divert field close by. Yes, we fly right over Sharjah and can just dip in there. Yes, you shouldn't find yourself in that position and when fuel gets critical just divert.

The point is, if one is a good "soldier" and does not add the extra fuel at the outstation or wherever, then you will find yourself in this situation many times coming in at midnight. No one is trying to jump the queue, these guys are probably trying to adhere to the asinine fuel policy that our desk sitters are giving us. These guys landed with less than 3.0 on the Boeing.

Two things strike me about this event. One is, ask yourself how much longer duty and difficult it would be to divert to a non EK station. You have been on duty for 12 hours and now you are going to add another three or four hours? You will have to go in on your day off and explain why you didn't adhere to the fuel policy and "commit" to DXB.

Second, you will be called into the office if you constantly take more fuel so you don't have to divert or declare an emergency. And you will be called into the office to explain why you declared an emergency when you landed one kg over final reserve. "not really an emergency". Go ahead and divert and see what the next few days in DXB will be like for you, from having a chat with Safety, then the "chief pilots" and then maybe a little sim training for you, to fully understand the "commit" policy.

Let me ask you guys that are pimping all those that, in your esteemed opinion, are not managing their fuel and flight as well as should be. In your "vast" experience, how many airlines have you heard around the world declaring fuel emergencies? How many times at your other airlines have you landed with the "fuel qty low" msg staring you in the face? It's one thing to divert to an online airport. I have diverted a number of times at the old airline, due to unforeseen events at the destination. And it was never an issue because the diverts were online airports. Never even had to write any type of report. But those were unforeseen events-arriving at midnight here and having 15 miles in trail, turning final with 10 miles in trail seems to be the norm around here. Dispatchers should know that, but they are underpressure to flight plan for the least amount of fuel burn. They will have to explain why they added five tons of extra fuel when the wx was CAVOK.

We are being put in a "box" with regards to the fuel policy here. The good thing here is that you don't have to have an act of parliment to put on extra fuel. Don't jump into these guys kit when all they are doing is trying to adhere to EKs fuel policy as written and "enforced".:= And if I am wrong about the consequences of diverting, taking extra fuel, and declaring an emergency, all I have to say is that is the perception of the enviornment here. But beats the consequences of an a/c in the dirt. Remember, the MAN guys got fired for a mistake that caused no immediate danger, reported it like they should, did the safe thing and went around, and was during a training enviornment.

[NO LAND 3]

Panther - a year ago I would have said you were just being paranoid. Now I think you make a fair point.

As an aside if you do the maths I believe its much cheaper for the company to have an occasional diversion than to have every peak flight carry additional fuel.
Whether you care or not is up to you.

[CAVnotOK]

It doesn't matter which company you are working for, or what type you are operating.
At the end of the day Emirates has given you Command of the aircraft. It is your responsibility to ensure the safety of the flight and it's passengers. If you decide to make an operational decision to carry 20mins extra fuel, because you KNOW you will need it you are doing your job.
If you leave the extra behind because it hasn't been given on the OFP, then you belong back in the R/H Seat.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Absolutely and well said CAVnotOK Habibi. Some of your should grow some balls and take the fuel you need, I have NEVER had to justify my decision to anyone' except myself and my colleague in the RHS. Learn the fuel policy and make command decisions, the company want you to do that. Don't rely on dispatchers to make YOUR decisions.

SyB :zzz:

[Saltaire]

Very well said Panther, sums things up nicely. We all feel squeezed at almost every angle, every corner these days, but the fuel issue has been and will always be the exception for me. Remember when an ASR was written up for landing below CMR fuel?

I'm sure the company would love to have us commit on every landing to save money. I for one will not plan on doing mental math or cancelling a low fuel pump msg. after a 10 hour duty if I can avoid it. Never had a naughty extra fuel email yet...

[ekpilot]

CAVnotOK your last post should sum up the situation and finish this thread...

Keep Discovering:ok:

[D632w001-EAD]

I use to have a copy of it from the net but can't find it, can anyone tell me where I found as I have lost a copy of the " 20 minutes holding " into Dxb

[NO LAND 3]

I believe it was issued as an Information Bulletin on the GCAA website. As far as I know it no longer exists.

[shiftpattern]

Here is the link.

http://www.gcaa.ae/en/ePublication/admin/Library%20Pdf/Aeronautical%20Information%20Services%20(AIS)/AeroInfoCirc/AIC%2004-06%20Aeroplanes%20Inbound.pdf

There has been stuff written about fuel policy in the past explaining it better than the gobbledegook in the FOM.

Last draft of the OM-A didn't even feature a fuel policy.

The fools who file ASR's for landing with less than ALT+FINAL deserve the tea and biscuits they get.

The fools who arrive in DUbai with insufficient fuel, who find themselves HAVING to commit, deserve a boot too.

As the legal commander, you carry what YOU deem fit, not what fule policy gives as guidance.

If you are worried about a trip to see EGT and his bitch/midget sidekick for landing with too much fuel, consider the pile of manure you will find yourself in for landing with not enough....

[NO LAND 3]

If you decide to make an operational decision to carry 20mins extra fuel, because you KNOW you will need it you are doing your job.

But in eight years I have never once needed the extra fuel, except for weather. So I kind of doubt I need it. My personal philosophy is to ensure I will arrive with enough to hold for at least 30 minutes and land with a 45 minute reserve.
What you do as a captain is up to you - to be honest I'm really explaining my point of view for the benefit of any FO I might operate with.
EK aren't bad with regards to fuel - you never will be taken to task for taking extra fuel unless you get really silly about it, so it doesn't take any balls to take it.
Many long haul carriers routinely don't carry alternate fuel (albeit with caveats).

[CAVnotOK]

NL3,

I agree with what you are saying. My point is that for guys who know they need the gas, but don't upload due to a real, or perceived Co. pressure are not doing their job as Commander.

You have a method, and a plan of how much you are happy to arrive with based on experience. Some people unfortunately don't seem to have the same to fall back on.

Experience cannot be bought or acquired overnight, much to EK's dismay.

[kiwi]

I also think it's important to point out that the 30 Minutes fuel on the flight plan is calculated with level flight at 1500 feet at holding speed over the aerodrome in standard conditions at planned landing weight for alternate.
When you hit the TOGA levers, the time period that fuel gives is considerably less than that!
Also the guidance in the QRH for Go Arounds with Fuel low level warnings
"Avoid high nose up attitude and excessive
acceleration or deceleration. This prevents
forward pumps from uncovering."
indicates the manufacturer doesn't garantee fuel feed with large nose up attitudes assosiated with a standard go around at low weights.
I don't think it's clever to intend arriving in such a fuel state, different if it occurs through situations that couldn't be planned for.

[Panther 88]

Cavnotok, You are still missing the point. You are blaming pilots for operational inadequacies of our operation. EK flight plans you for what they deem is appropriate fuel. Supposedly they have looked at all factors for your destination and historical data with regards to wx and delays. If the flight planning is accurate, one should never need to take extra fuel, unless something is unusual in the air. So is that the case? You tell me. If you are adding fuel, even a ton or two, then the flight planning falls short of being ....(fill in your own word).

Now with regards to experience. My experience, all 30plus years in a cockpit tells me that the flight plan I am given should be accurate and correct. Is that the case here? Secondly, I know a number of captains that have been called in to explain their fuel additions. Thirdly, why is there even a commit policy at all. That tells me that the desk sitters want us to fly around with minimum fuel and land at the hub, not divert if the wx is good. Fourth, imagine being called into the office to explain your emergency call when you landed (barely) above FR. The reason we don't have evenings like the other night is because most everyone is carrying more than what is deemed on the flight plan, because none of us want to be put into that box. But if you regularly follow our fuel guidelines to the letter, trying to be the good soldier, you will be diverting regularly-but then why didn't you "commit".........it goes on and on.

We agree that commanders need to be commanders. No arguement there. I am saying that the company is putting you in situations that one does not need to be put in. YOU as the commander have to mitigate the situation. The operation here is at fault, not the LHS. I will ask again, how often at your previous airlines did you ever land with "fuel qty. low" lights glaring you in the face? But if you adhere to the fuel policy, as written and as operated" that will be a fact of life here. Have at it son, take the fuel they give you and "commit". The fact of the matter is, you shouldn't have to worry about it. At every other airline I have ever flown at, when you hit reserve fuel-you are gone man. Done, no turning back, no commit bs, no "you're number one now"....you are done. That's not how it is here. Commit, commit, commit.......

I just looked up the actual meaning of commit:
Commit v. (committed, committing) 1. carry out a crime etc. 2. pledge to do something. 3. entrust; send to prison or psychiatric hospital.

No more commentis needed.

[CAVnotOK]

Hey Panther,

Everything you are saying is correct. However, if the flight planning in this Mickey Mouse outfit that calls itself a major airline is forcing guys into a situation where the Fuel Quantity Low is shining bright in your face, then unfortunately the Pilots must step up and mitigate the scenario from taking place.

Proactive rather than Reactive.

And you are right......it is 100% the fault of the Company. I have never seen anything like it anywhere or time in my career.

[Panther 88]

HEY WE AGREE>>>I believe we were trying to say the same thing, just differently. Take the gas and when you land with what would have been less than Final Reserve, if you had not added the gas, file an ASR. As Mr. Ed said in our, er, "meetings" they can't do anything about anything if it is not documented. We should be glad that gas is easily added around here.

[NO LAND 3]

yeahbutyeahbutyeahbut...
I'm a bit uncomfortable about appearing to be an apologist for the company but I feel the need to provide some balancing comments.
For those who remember our old policy the provision to commit to a destination clause in the "new" policy provided a welcome option to avoid being forced into a diversion to the alternate once min diversion fuel was reached. This avoided the illogical situation where you were then "committed to alternate" which usually left you in a less safe position with more unknowns at an unfamiliar airport. Its actually a good option.

Regarding uncovering the fwd fuel pumps - are you sure this isn't more to avoid damaging the pumps?

[Payscale]

Just take the 20 min..... Its not optional. Its the guy who gave you the license tell you...

[helen-damnation]

Regarding uncovering the fwd fuel pumps - are you sure this isn't more to avoid damaging the pumps?

More likely to avoid damaging company property while my :mad:$e tries to eat it :eek:

Don't always be sure about Sharjah taking you, at least not immediately. I came back to DXB a year or 2 ago and had unforecast fog. KLM 74F behind me was told to reduce speed and take vectors. When he indicated he didn't have enough fuel and wanted to divert to SRJ, the answer was.....
"I'll see if they will accept you".

Personally, I will add some extra to the contingency to ensure I have the 20 mins holding.

HD

[High 6]

Many years ago, flying into Nice via Rome (with EK) during a mistral, and having to divert to Marseille due crosswind Nice going above max and then getting constant low fuel warnings while on finals in a max crosswind case.... I learned my lesson. :eek:

Everything was done by the book, we had even put extra fuel due weather and complied to the FOM, and landed with approx 45 mins in tanks... however the knotted gut feeling that exists when you know there is not much fuel sloshing around in the tanks after a very long duty day landing in an unfamiliar port is not very comfortable.

I would strongly recommend that those who write and enforce these rules should get out on the line, fly around using their own policies, fuel and others, and get first hand experience on the repercussions of their desk bound decisions, maybe then operational policies would be established outside of the bean counters office. That's my 2 dirhams worth, off to get my beauty sleep on my min rest DXB layover.

[ATCO1962]

As one of the poor, overworked controllers on the Muscat side of the border who has to give "Sorry, expected approach time not determined due.....(fill in an excuse), I wonder if we could make use of all those US KC135s that are passing through? All you gotta do is stick one of those fuel protuberances on the front of all those EK planes, assign a KC135 to the BUBIN and DESDI holds and you can stay up all night!!:ok:

Any takers?

[kiwi]

Can you link up with a tanker using the autopilot? Nobody here has hand flying skills any more!!:}

[ferris]

How far from the tanker do you have to be stable?

[TurboDAWG]

Uplift what you need...Not what your told you need by someone behind a desk. The desk will never run out of Fuel. YOU WILL.

If you think you need it, uplift it. If you don't need it, leave it behind. Be a Captain, make a decision. A professional one.

[jimmyg]

Rog that, going tactical