Buy or Hire aircraft?

[av8trflying]

Just looking for some opinions on whether to buy or hire a plane for a company that needs transport.

They are looking at a 6 or 8 seater non pressurised plane.

What plane would you recommend and why?

Should they buy or wet or dry lease the aircraft?

I thought maybe a shrike for the cargo capacity and reliability.

I thought a navajo might be a bit expensive on the maintenance side.

It would mainly be used for transporting people and only sometimes freight.

Thanks for your thoughts!:ok:

[apache]

what sort of range do you need?
What sort of baggage capacity?
does it need to be a twin or would a single do?
does it need to be IFR?
does it need STOL performance?
what speed would you like?
what sort of strips would it be going into?
de-icing equipped?
one pilot? or two?

[megle2]

So you will end up with an aircraft that was manufactured about when you started at Kindy.

[ZEEBEE]

what sort of range do you need?
What sort of baggage capacity?
does it need to be a twin or would a single do?
does it need to be IFR?
does it need STOL performance?
what speed would you like?
what sort of strips would it be going into?
de-icing equipped?
one pilot? or two?


Wot he said, but in addition, HOW OFTEN would it be needed or flown?

Intermitent use makes owning your own aircraft frightfully expensive...eg I currently own an Auster (don't ask me why) that on fixed costs alone costs me about $300 per hour before I even turn the prop.
Greater use would reduce the hourly cost but I would still be better off hiring if I could be sure of availability.
Ok, so the Auster isn't the aircraft you're looking for, but the numbers are worse for twins.

[bizzybody]

HIRE HIRE HIRE!!!!!

Just ask Roger Wilco what the cost of the repair to me was on my Chieftain that crapped itself on him in the middle of nowhere last week..

Most expensive starter motor in aviation history

[Peter Fanelli]

Why didn't you hand start it and bring it home?

[allthecoolnamesarego]

If it flies, floats or fu&%s, rent it!

Is that the correct spelling for 'flies'?

[av8trflying]

Thanks for the responses so far:ok:

what sort of range do you need?
around 5 - 6 hours endurance

What sort of baggage capacity?
around 200kg with full pax

does it need to be a twin or would a single do?
twin.....i dont like to gamble:E

does it need to be IFR?
yes

does it need STOL performance?
no

what speed would you like?
TAS around 150 - 180

what sort of strips would it be going into?
both sealed and unsealed

de-icing equipped?
no

one pilot? or two?
one

Cheers everyone:ok:

[bentleg]

As foreshadowed by ZEEBEE the hours to be flown will make a HUGE difference to the numbers. Similarly to Zeebee, I am a hobby flyer doing about 80 hours per year. I have seen the numbers for the single four seat aircraft I fly and I would need to fly 300+ hours pa to break even. As ZEEBEE says the "standing still" costs will be greater for a twin.

Owning (like a car) has the advantage it is usually there when you want it, and you know what its condition will be when you jump in. Renting provides more certain cost per hour flown (all tax deductible), and any maintenance "surprises" belong to someone else. Think and calculate VERY carefully before buying.

[The Green Goblin]

Thanks for the responses so far

what sort of range do you need?
around 5 - 6 hours endurance

What sort of baggage capacity?
around 200kg with full pax

does it need to be a twin or would a single do?
twin.....i dont like to gamble IGNORANCE IS BLISS

does it need to be IFR?
yes

does it need STOL performance?
no

what speed would you like?
TAS around 150 - 180

what sort of strips would it be going into?
both sealed and unsealed

de-icing equipped?
no

one pilot? or two

one WHY HAVE TWO ENGINES FOR SAFETY WITH ONLY ONE PILOT?

Cheers everyone

The only piston twin that will get close to 5-6 hours endurance with 8 pax and 200kg of freight/baggage would be a Cessna 404. Expect to pay over 500k if you can find one in decent condition for sale that has had its SID program complied with.

A Caravan would be your best option if you have a spare couple of Mill :)

[bizzybody]

Why didn't you hand start it and bring it home?


ummmmm no...
probably do-able but not smart

[Jamair]

5 - 6 hours endurance; 200kg baggage with full pax; twin; IFR; TAS around 150 - 180; both sealed and unsealed strips; one pilot?

No Shrike, Chieftain, 402, Baron, 310/340, 414/421, Aztec, Aerostar or any other light / cabin-class twin piston-engine aircraft ever built is going to achieve those parameters, AND they are ALL going to be 30-odd + years old.

At the least you will be looking at a C404 Titan (circa 1985) and if you're serious about it and doing the hours you will be after a B200. Other possibilities are PC12 and C208 for SE option.

Having been there and done that.....unless you have a REAL big budget and SERIOUS utilisation that justifies professional crewing and maintenance, stick to ad-hoc charter as and when required.

[The Green Goblin]

and if you're serious about it and doing the hours you will be after a B200.

Not even a King Air will really do that, a conquest will though :ok:

[allthecoolnamesarego]

.........PC12:ok:

[Alistair]

does it need to be a twin or would a single do?
twin.....i dont like to gamble


Just out of interest, what part of any piston twin isn't gambling at the sort of numbers you are talking?

For a whole host of reasons I would rather put my arse on the line in a SE turbine any day over some of the piston twins mentioned here.

[PlankBlender]

Really not too hard to answer, that question: select a small number of suitable models, do your homework (internet/other operators/etc.) and run the numbers re. operating costs (will vary widely with utilisation as others have said, so estimate carefully), depreciation gains, cost of capital, etc., and then compare with rental rates and availability. If there's a huge difference you've got your answer, if it's in the same ballpark (I'd say +/- 20%) then it's a question of risk, luxury of 100% availability, etc..

[jamsquat]

Have to know what you were doing to hand swing a cheiftain, not to mention a bit of a hercules. Shower of sparks, ie no impulse means the starter button would have to be depressed as it was being swung. Unless the starter lead was disconnected this wouldn't be advisable. If the bendix of the starter was already engaged, or stuck or damaged (depends what made it u/s in the first place) hand swinging would be near impossible

JS

[aileron_69]

I'm currently going through a similar exercise myself and was thinking I would lease an aircraft for the first season to see how it worked out, then all going to plan I will look at buying one. That way you wont end up stuck with an aircraft that doesnt suit what you need if you get it wrong.

[av8trflying]

Thanks guys for all of your input.

It has probably answered all of the questions I was after which is great.

I am gathering as much info as i can and then will present it to the boss.

Once again cheers:ok:

[Lineboy4life]

after youve got it sorted - pm me if you need a pilot :}

lineboy

[apache]

actually..... buy a BANDIT!
unpressurised, cheap(ish), PT-6!!!!!, 190k TAS, 8 pax plus 200kg plus full tanks, 1000m performance, TWIN .... and you could prolly even put a dunny in the back!

[The Green Goblin]

And two PT6's at max altitude of 10k good bye fuel economy!

Stick with a Caravan :cool:

[Howard Hughes]

Less than 200 hours per annum = rent.
More than 200 hours per annum = buy.:ok:

[Jabawocky]

How well does a C421 go for range/payload etc.....I know a nice one in Bris with SIDS done etc that could be bought off the owner for the right money.

[megle2]

C421 - 8 paxs / 200kgs = nope and not at any price
PC 12 - 8 paxs / 200 kgs = tail heavy and bulk out?