Last usage of runway 23 at LHR

[Uncle Fred]

Does anyone remember the last time they used the former runway 23 for landings at LHR? I can vaguely remember being there one day in 2000 when the winds were absolutely howling from the SW and I thought I remember seeing ac circle to land from the approach of 27R.

Within the hour the winds shifted back to the west (although still what I recall as a Beaufort force 8 or so) and the landings recommenced on 27R as we nipped off 27L.

Is my memory faulty here? If not, when did they finally put it into the state that it is now? How often was it used for landings? Wondered if in those conditions one was spared the usual buffet on the last mile from the hanger when landing 27R?

Any photos of this runway in use?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I did locate the date for another thread but I'm blowed if I can find it now.

23 was used quite frequently during strong SW winds and there was some surprise when it was closed. It could be a bit of a pain from an ATC point of view, especially after the ILS was decommissioned and we had to do SRAs all day! However, pilots of 707s and DC8s naturally preferred to use it when the main runways had croswinds! Pilots of other aircraft often stayed with 27L, creating interesting situations for trainee radar controllers - and some experienced ones who had never seen that configuration.

When a single aircraft was being sequenced for 27L, calculating its track distance to fit a "gap" left in the 23 stream was somewhat of a black art with the significantly different groundspeeds due to wind effect. Convincing a trainee that the "following" aircraft on 23 had to be ten miles from touchdown at the same time as the "one ahead" on 27L took some doing!

Tower controllers had problems with 27R departures as vortex effect had to be avoided with traffic on short final for 23.

[Talkdownman]

23/05 eventually went the same way as all the other subsidiary runways, the Airport Operator wanting the concrete for reasons other than landing and take-off. Modern aircraft are (most of the time...) more able to cope with crosswinds than the previous generations especially old four-podders (although some side-stickers could provide some entertainment). If the landing aircraft on 23/05 were any more than 2nm apart the air holding delays became huge but for as standard separation had to be distance and not time despite ridiculously low groundspeeds 2.5 nm or more had to be used. Mandatory Wake Vortex separation 'blew away' any chance of tightening up spacing even though the preceding vortex rapidly dissipated by the time the following aircraft came in a position to encounter it. Turbulence was probably more of an issue. It was an awesome sight to see five heavies lined up on 23 and the tower controller crossing tugs on the dual taxiways. Ground movements became more of a problem when the inner taxiway outside the Deltas and Echos was developed for parking and there would be a queue of aircraft leading up to 27R with a 23 vacater trying to squeeze through to the Echos and Foxtrots. I often wondered if it would have been easier if aircraft had turn indicators so that the taxying aircraft could give way to the lander. As HD says the 27L versus the 23 was a real black art but very rewarding when it worked. Had to resort to unofficial 23 LAHSOs on a few occasions. It was also great fun on 05 providing 'back-to-back' SRAs espectially when it was a stiff CAVOK north-easterly. Towards the end of the life of 23 it was not unusual to find oneself supervising a tower-full of controllers who had never seen it in use and the experience died away before the runway was withdrawn to be just the 'outer taxiway'.

[DFC]

Tower controllers had problems with 27R departures as vortex effect had to be avoided with traffic on short final for 23.

Wow that would be a windy day for the paths of the typical types using Heathrow to cross.

Missed approach off 23 versus something like a FK50 departure off 27L I could understand the posibility but would there be anything operating from 27R that would rotate before the centerline of 23?

Regards,

DFC

[Talkdownman]

HD actually means 'jet-efflux' effect.

I was never convinced there was a problem, but we were told to apply it.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Perhaps I should have said turbulence rather than vortex. It wasn't the rotation bit.... it was the winding up for take-off with the lander 250 yards behind!

[Uncle Fred]

Thank you for the replies. Am I correct in reading that they also used 5 for arrivals at times? For some reason I was only thinking of the opposite direction but of course it makes sense.

Did they ever use this for departures? I would imagine if you had 40 knots on the nose it might have worked rather nicely.

[halo]

I remember that day very well...

I ended up doing 23/27L arrivals cross-runway operations and it was pretty hard work. If I remember rightly, the wind was straight along 23 at about 55kts and I watched an Al Nippon 747 land and come off the runway half way along the Europier (now where taxiway Uniform is). That was also the same day that a Cathay Cargo 747 took runway 27L and nearly had a podstrike.

Damn near filled my looms with fruit.

[IThink]

05 was withdrawn long before 23, I arrived in the late 80s and never saw it. It was withdrawn with Terminal 4's arrival I think. 05 was was an even remoter operation and it was usually snowing if it was needed as it obviously needed a really strong NNE wind.
HD will have plenty of war stories about the 05 arrival and the 09R take-off as this was the standard mode.

[WHBM]

The BOAC 707 G-ARWE that caught fire and an engine fell off in 1968 came back onto 05R.

Withdrawing a valuable runway just for the revenue convenience of Heathrow, at the nation's major airport, is something that, if they were up to the job, the CAA should never have allowed to happen. Exactly the same during the years that followed when Heathrow maintained the fiction that the runway existed but if you requested 23 you were told there would be a 2 hour delay while infringing parked aircraft were removed, and it never seemed to occur to anyone to have a procedure to remove such parked aircraft beforehand, when the wind was getting up in the relevant direction.

The last movement I can actually recall seeing onto 23 must have been 1988 (because I recall seeing it from the M4 when my old E-reg car was new !). It was a 747, which just looked strange coming from that direction.

For those writing about ATC when intersecting runways were in use, have you ever been to Chicago O'Hare, any day ? Six runways, all intersecting in varying combinations, and all in use simultaneously.

[DFC]

Perhaps I should have said turbulence rather than vortex. It wasn't the rotation bit.... it was the winding up for take-off with the lander 250 yards behind!


OK. Now I understand. Not nice having a sudden 120Kt crosswind that you did not expect!

Regards,

DFC

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Yes, I've seen (and done!) 05R single runway ops with a howling northerly wind. One day a Trident opted to try 10L but the drift was so bad the crew couldn't see the runway because of the side metal pillars on the cockpit window! They were diverting all over to places with northerly runways. A foreign aircraft diverted to Birmingham after holding for over an hour and we later heard Brum had closed. A friend of mine had been flying a BA aircraft and diverted to Brum. He landed behind the foreigner, which ran out of fuel as it turned off the runway at the far end and blocked the turn-off so my buddy was stuck behind on the runway!

If I recall the usual tower response to the first call from an inbound aircraft on 05R was "Report crossing the river". That was the Thames, about 3.5 miles out. A Trident crossed the river just as a snow storm hit the north side of Heathrow. I urged him to keep the speed on, but just as he crossed the threshold everything disappeared in a white-out and he went round. "We tried our best", he said.

I cleared Speedbird 707 for take off once on 10R with traffic about a mile out on 05R. The gentleman replied that he'd rather wait until that one had landed and I said something like "It's not that one I'm worried about - it's the one 2 miles behind him!" Luckily the guy poured the coal on and everything worked fine.

Approach was fun too.. There was a trainee on South Director one day who'd never seen 05. In accordance with standard procedure the Air Man rang down for a heading for westbound departure off 10R. With lots of confidence of "I've done lots of westbound departures before" the trainee gaily said "250". The usual "two bells" from the Air Man signified that the departure was rolling so I asked the trainee if he was confident the outbound would out-climb the traffic on final approach to 05. "Oh Chr*st"... Quick bell to the Air Man got the outbound stopped on 200, thereby preventing aluminum rain (as our US friends call it) over Virginia Water.

ATC was also frustrated by the inordinate amount of time needed to bring 23 into use, but we were in the hands of the airport owners.

23 produced some great "events". An A310 landed well-down - like almost at the Block 85 and was obviously having problems stopping. It managed to reduce speed enough to lurch off to the left at the end and disappeared behind T4!!! I saw a number of aircraft "have a go" at RAF Northolt, even after 23L ILS was installed. Problem was that the closing heading to lock-on put them nicely lined up for Northolt..... and some took a bit of convincing that they were wrong.

In reply to WHBM, yes, I've been to Chicago and seen it. A colleague of mine went there in the 70s on a familiarisation trip and came back grey-haired. When he queried some of the happenings the US controllers told him the trouble with Brit controllers was that they worried too much.... 'nuff said. I showed some O'Hare controllers round London Approach... looking at the traffic patterns on the radar one of them counted the range rings and said: "Let's see, this is 100, 200 miles, right?" "Not quite - 10, 20 miles". His response was dramatic.

Oh Happy Days...... Wonder if it all happens now?

[Max Angle]

Used 23 quite a few times in the early 90's flying Midland 737's, sometimes used it late at night on calm days inbound with the mail from EDI for controller SRA training, always happy to oblige. I do remember taxing out one very windy morning and seeing a Springbok 747 land on 23 right beside us, very impressive.

Of course there is still a 23/05 runway available for howling SW winds but unfortunately it's up the road at Stansted. Does anyone in ATC know who many times since it shut the x-wind has been out of limits for 27L/R and aircraft have had to divert?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Max Angle... Grey cells here somewhat depleted now but I think it was a TWA Captain who would not taxy north on the outer taxiway to 27R whilst 23L was in use. He thought it was a bit too close!

[classicwings]

I showed some O'Hare controllers round London Approach... looking at the traffic patterns on the radar one of them counted the range rings and said: "Let's see, this is 100, 200 miles, right?" "Not quite - 10, 20 miles". His response was dramatic.

Brilliant!!!:):):)

[Max Angle]

Yup, that is exactly where we were, it did seem pretty close at the time.

[Warped Factor]

I was posted to LHR in '89 and 05 was still in use around then as I can remember watching it in action and working it as a tower u/t. It only went out of service when they decided to build some parking stands on what was the 05 threshold.

Sat on my desk beside me is a (the?) 05 runway designator strip, that I liberated when the runway was finally withdrawn.

Once they'd built the stands on the 05 threshold, that was the main reason it then took so long to get 23 up and running. Any aircraft and associated equipment parked on the 05 threshold stands had to be removed before 23 could be used. I recall it either being 2 or 4 hours notice required.

[Over+Out]

There is a recent Swanwick Manager who did his LL validation board when RWY 23 was in operation.(AB).
I believe the day of the board was the first he had seen 23 for real.
Can anybody confirm this?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I don't know to whom you are referring, but this happened on a number of occasions when I was at Heathrow so it wasn't unknown. I also saw many fully valid controllers who had never seen 23..... until they arrived on watch to take over!

[Northerner]

Over + Out
I always understood that to be the case too. Apparently some working with him that day were also seeing it for the first time. I gather SRG said if he could cope with that he could cope with anything!
Cheers,
N

"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."

[Eric T Cartman]

To digress slightly, anyone recall the last time a braking 'chute was deployed on landing @ LL ?

[Geezers of Nazareth]

I don't know about LL, but I heard one land at KK back in the early 80's. A US Navy A-3 Skywarrior, converted to be a VIP transport, on a flight from somewhere in southern Europe.

I heard it get clearance to land from the Tower. The next comms from the aircraft was a question as to whether he could drop his braking-chute on the runway, or should he turn-off first!

But, back to LL ....
I remember reading an article in the 90s which was all about SAS and their DC-9 operations arouns Scandinavia. It explained that some of their fleet were equipped with braking-chutes for use in the winter months on frozen runways in the far north.

I suppose, in theory, some of those a/c could have operated into LL, but I can't imagine that they'd ever need to use them.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

TU-104s and the odd Caravelle used them at Heathrow, but Heaven knows why. Maybe they had no brakes! A Tower request to a TU-104 not to drop the chute until off the runway usually resulted in a billowing great shroud falling on to the runway for Checker to retrieve, resulting in a go-around for the next arrival...

[Eric T Cartman]

Thanks GoN & HD
I know an Air France Caravelle used one in early 1979 on rwy 23. I was onboard the Trident that landed just ahead of it & I heard the AFR burst a tyre on landing & caused a lot of delays ! :hmm:

[pax britanica]

Furthering the thread drift but what about the last time 05 was used. I flew into LHR many many times but never on 23 though on return from our honeymoon we did use 05 to arive back in a freezing UK after a week in sunny Faro.
Great view from right overhead Heathrow as we approached -presumeably something like over head the Airport and then a long downwind southwest to comeback in across the Thames upstream from Staines. Was 05 a 'talkdown' appraoach ?

Also saw a Swissair Caravelle pop the chure in the 60s quite a sight when not expecting it.
Also amusing to see the FO climb out of the flightdeck window and shimmy down a rope to check on something after it stopped

PB

[windowjob]

Apart from the westbounds that HD mentioned, the big problem with 05 was track distance from BIG/OCK. Most crews thought it would be straight onto base leg and down but the outbounds got in the way and you had to take them over final and then downwind left before turning back. There were nearly some red faces when they realised that "we've just enough fuel if we leave the hold now" didn't account for this.
Other joys of 05 SRA's was when IBE broke cloud and all he could see was water, as he was over one of the Reservoirs (can't remember the names now) and knew LL was inland so called "over the sea going round"! Took some convincing second time round. Also TWA (ah those were the days) saying "we'd like to go visual now" at 6nm when no-one else saw the Runway until 2 nm. "Confirm visual?" to which he replied "Hell no, but we'd sure like to be visual now". Not sure if it was a comment on my SRA.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Was 05 a 'talkdown' appraoach ?>>

Being very young (!), I don't know if PAR was ever used on the subsidiary runways but certainly SRAs were employed, as windowjob mentioned. There was never ILS on that runway.

***I've found one piece of info: Runway 23 was permanently withdrawn from use on 27 October 2002. The last movement was SAA Boeing 747 ZS-SAU, which landed at 0746.

[Talkdownman]

Dunno 'bout you HD but as an 05 Number 2 Director I've done alternate SRAs to 05 with a second, and adjacent, Number 2. Tremendous fun, especially if you got a 'good' guy who just got on with it and you trusted each other. It was best to try and put them to tower in the correct order though otherwise it would confuse the hell out of the 10R/05 man shooting ("Roll NOW!") the gaps!!

[India 99]

Well . . . got to say . . . as if it were yesterday but regrettably it is not.

My LL Twr Validation was on 05! . . yep not seen it before and SRG did offer another appointment if I wished? . . . No ta, been up most of the night looking forward to the day.

As you may recall '' Air '' was combined for 05 Ops, ie Just the one air controller/frequency as all three runways were yours (05, 10L, 10R).

It worked a dream with the other Air person doing an invaluable job (planner/slot negotiator/phones/holding point sequencing etc) just left you with the sometimes heart rendering decisions and yes clearing traffic 4 take off on 10R with traffic on short(ish) final for 05 . . it had to be judged shall we say. (on the brakes > power up > go now meant . . go NOW honest, it's a long way to block 85).

I believe the afternoon watch ended up with a few rejected take offs and the usual excitement when it did not quite work out . . . just stop before block 85!!

Anyways a big thank you to CM my Air2 man who always managed to sort the Dep order and renegotiate the slots or otherwise make sure that I got away with it. I cannot remember who was on GMC but they too had little experience of 05 Ops. And thanks to SRG who let me loose to spend many an enjoyable shift at probably the best posting . . in those days at least.

Oh and yes those track miles . . leave BIG 320 then left 280 towards Amersham'ish then the long downwind left for SRA to 05 having sequenced with the LAM and BNN traffic.

Happy days . . . Really

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<My LL Twr Validation was on 05! . . yep not seen it before and SRG did offer another appointment if I wished? >>

Wasn't with Harry "The Colonel" was it? If so he was probably as terrified as you!

Guess we must have worked together...

Take care Bren McC

[India 99]

<< Wasn't with Harry "The Colonel" was it? If so he was probably as terrified as you!>> Wish I could remember that far back . . it may very well have been!

Guess we must have worked together ... we certainly have Old Bean . . hope you are keeping well. :ok:

[windowjob]

There were 2 schools of thought on doing SRA's to 05. Some Watches had 2 Directors with each doing alternate one's as Talkdownman says and some had the first Dir sequencing to final and then at 6nm hand over to the 2nd for the full SRA as he would just have transferred the first to Twr at 2nm or more. This meant that each Dir only did 1 job i.e sequencing or SRA'ing rather than doing both at the same time, plus the Twr always knew who to ring if there was a problem or to give a landing clearance.

How could you ever explain to SRG nowadays "shooting the gap" with a departure from 10R cleared for take off (or at least told "Roll Now Take off clearance to follow") against tfc that still hadn't landed on 05!

[Skipness One Echo]

Very interesting thread. Anyone comment, ballpark figure, how often traffic uses 09L for departure for whatever reason. I know the Cranfield Agreement prohibits this as a norm but the up to date SIDS suggest it's an option?

And with Hoon revoking the above agreement, about to become commonplace again?

[Gonzo]

S1E,

It's always an option...when 27L/09R was being resurfaced a few years ago, it would be closed every night at 2230. If we were on easterlies, that would mean quite a few 09L departures.

Not sure of a ballpark figure to be honest. I think there were a few 09L departures a few weeks ago one night....Maybe wrong on that one though.

[micky707]

Wow this is bringing back some memories for me, i used to live in Staines, and remember well the times 05R was in use, does anyone remember the time that it was used for 2/3 days solid in the 70's and in the summer! Tunis 727's swissair cv990's TWA 747's . I presume there was work being carried out on the main 2 runways.
I saw RWE going in whilst messing around near the house, something i will never forget, some very loud explosions!

Used to listen in to atc and remember the SRA approaches, actually taped a few times, but sadly wrote over them, would have made good nostalgia.
Saw the rocket land on it once while at the threshold, that was scary.
The only other times when using 05R was extremly cold ne wind, the 707's passed over us at 700' the smell of the kerosene and the screaming JT3's.

I have been at EGLL for 25 years now and only seen o5 used once, and that would have been between 91 and 94, i believe this was the last time, must have just been before the whisky stands were built.

I have towed ac to base when 23 was in use and remember holding for an inbound A320 when said a/c went around, turned out another tow,er was towing from T4 straight across the 05 threhold! Thats when i realised how dangerous using this runway was.

Also the near miss with a 747 and a F28, one was landing the other departing both from 23.

[heathrow, easy life]

05 SRO one Christmas in the mid 80s, now that was a very interesting day.
E Watch on duty, well a few of them anyway.
Ba111 left Heathrow 05 for JJ, tailwind all the way, for some reason could not land at JJ, decided to return to LL, now a screaming headwind, enters OCK stack , must leave stack now or will have to divert, vectored as mentioned with about 70 miles from touch down, declares Mayday at 5 miles,

[Flightman]

In 2001 there were 15 departures off 09L
In 2002 1160
In 2003 1099
In 2004 492
In 2005 762
In 2006 236
In 2007 43
In 2008 21
So far this year 96.

[Uncle Fred]

Great thread and a lot of fun to pull some of the greybeards in to fill us in about how LHR was before the boring 2 parallel arrangement.

My airline only mentions in the 10-7 pages that 9L is normally not used and does not publish anything for a 9L departure. Yet the above post says that they have done it quite a few times the past years. What circumstances metit this? Is there obstacle data available? I will try to pull it out of our ACARS tomorrow and see what we have from that end. What kind of clearance does one receive from clearance delivery? Radar vectors with an "expect?"

Also, what is a good link on a discussion on a 3rd runway there? I know this is a political hot potato, but if I were King for a day I would be pouring concrete tomorrow morning... Save more fuel and carbon footprint by just landing than we would holding http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Gonzo]

There is a full range of 09L SIDs in the AIP, quite surprised that you have no details of them.

The vast majority of 09L departures will have been when the southerly runway was closed (from 2230 when it was being resurfaced, or when being de-iced etc). Other times we may use it might be when it has a significantly better RVR or when the 09L ILS is u/s and the weather precludes visuals/SRAs.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<My airline only mentions in the 10-7 pages that 9L is normally not used >>

Good Lord, Fred - what airline do you fly for?!!

[Uncle Fred]

The 10-7 page is just one of the pages that Jeppesen publishes for my airline and it and the subsequent 10-7A,10-7B etc. are considered airport information pages. For us it simply states that 9L is not used for departure for noise abatement reasons. My life is way too short to have launched a 1000 hour inqiury with the airline as to why this is in the book and how to get it changed and how many people would need to sit in on a meeting with Jeppesen to formulate a review plan and if a contractor should be studied to determine if this statement is valid at all times etc. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif In other words I simply read the thing and took it for what it was worth but was certainly surprised by it.

Of course I have landed on 9L many times--it is just that I have not been there when it was being used for takeoff ---which when I am only there perhaps 4 times a month hat makes sense that the odds of me seeing this runway used for departure are slim.

I did look through my books however (in a serious case of geekdom I must admit that I am doing this at home!), and indeed noticed that all the 10-3 departure pages list 9L as a possibility so all the obstacle data must be in. One of those things perhaps that just does not come up that often for some of us and I never really noticed it as all my departures seem to be 27 R/L or 9R with the turn at LON 2 DME to a heading of 220. Sort of like asking the European crews if they knew that ORD had until not so long ago a runway 36? Not long enough for large jet use but I have seen departures from it.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Apologies, Fred. I misunderstood and thought the paperwork was suggesting 09L was not normally used at all!

[Uncle Fred]

Sorry Director. I was not very clear on my first writing and I could see how what I said could have been misunderstood!

Talk to all of you tomorrow morning upon arrival!

[JohnLHR]

There's a lot of interesting stuff written about 23 / 05. I have landed a few times on 23. It was always an interesting experience. There was always plenty of whoooooo from the passengers. I remember doing a trip to Athens on a BA 757. It left terminal 4 and back tracked runway 23. It then did a 180 and launched off runway 23. It was late at night, so the airport wasn't busy. With regards to runway 05, I can rember seeing a few land on it, but that was extremely rare. I have often wondered when 23 was last used - does anyone know?
John (Airport Staff)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

JohnLHR.... See post #27.

[trident3A]

Talking of runway 23, I noticed from the train a couple of weeks ago that the blue Gasometer in Southall still has the sign for Heathrow..

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3551/3426093985_002f47d43d.jpg

[chevvron]

I can remember 05 being used for landings late 80s/early 90s as I used to live in Frimley and they turned final about there. I think it was used maybe up to mid 90s when the wind required it; certainly I can remember watching the inbounds on the radar at Farnborough.

[scotbill]

Try some real nostalgia (circa 1957)
Still had a flashing green ident beacon then!

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa453/scotbill/HeathrowChart.jpg

[ZOOKER]

scotbill,
wow. Fascinated by old charts like this. Do you have any more you could scan in please?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Still had the green beacon in the 1970s too!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Scotbill.. I've flicked quickly through The Book but there appears to be no mention of the airfield beacon. I think it said "LH" but that chart above seems to suggest "VA"?? It's certainly in the right location - at the end of Beacon Road south of the 05R threshold. Hmmm... interesting.

During ADC validation boards question Jack Carruthers always asked about the beacon.

Bren

[scotbill]

Zooker

Only of the Scottish airfields.

Heathrow Director

Do you remember what the ident was on the green beacon? I thought it was LH but the memory banks can play tricks and there is no confirmation on the chart.

[ZOOKER]

Sorry to step on HD's anticipated reply, but it was 'LH' in the late 60s/early70s. I remember seeing it on my first visit to EGLL on a Trent Bus Co day out from Loughborough. We had a guided tour around the perimeter road. It was amazing. I had never seen jet airliners before. The guide told us that the beacon, (or pundit), could be seen from over The English Channel. It was this bus trip which made me decide to become an ATCO.
A year or so later, (1970ish), my dad and I went to EGLL at night, with a friend who drove freight down there 4 nights a week. We stood on the grass outside the 'Hunting. hangar for an hour or so watching Argosies, Merchantmen and DC8 freighters landing on 28L. No security. I remember this beacon lighting up the whole sky with green flashes.
We had a smaller 40W model at EGNX, west of the old tower. It flashed 'CA', also in green, I think the RAF beacons were red.
Why were they called 'pundits' though?

[terrain safe]

I remember doing 23 ops in the early 90s as a trainee. Saw an Aer Lingus 737 do a screaming turn onto a 1/2 mile final for 23 to beat another inbound. As the plane vacated |I asked to pilot if that was fun to which the reply was "Best fun I've had in cockpit for years, keep lucky". Creased me and the mentor.

[The 185 Radial]

Further evidence that the ident beacon was 'VA' in the fifties

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/mbaviationpix/AIP.jpg

[scotbill]

The logbook says my first arrival at LAP (sic) was just after Xmas '59 by DC3 from Glasgow. Must have been an extra. (2.20 block time since you ask - 2.45 on the return).
I could easily convince myself it was LH then.

[Brian 48nav]

Talkdown Man and I started at LL on 3rd Nov '86, and we saw loads of 23 ops particularly in that winter of 86/7.

I can honestly say that I never saw 05 in operation, but of course it could have been used when I was not at work.

Chevvron, the Heathrow Book states that 05 was finally pensioned off in the latter part of '93. I'm not a betting man but I'd wager it hadn't been used for a year or two before that.

Just been talking to Bob Hillyer on the blower and he was a 05 virgin too.

[chevvron]

I can vaguelly recollect 05 being taken out of use for arrivals due to the extension of T4 stands, so that was probably '93.

[scotbill]

Sorry about the thread drift but Zooker did ask!
Copied from a notebook I used to keep in the late 50s (hence the scribbles).
Note they both had VDF homers as well as light beacons.

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa453/scotbill/ManchesterChart50s.jpghttp://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa453/scotbill/BirminghamChart50s.jpg

[ZOOKER]

scotbill,
many thanks indeed.

[FragRad]

Coming in rather late on this thread, but rember being at LL as a lowly ATCA when a Concorde landed on 23. Didn't touch down anywhere near the normal point and eveyone was convinced he was going off at the end. The pilot held the nose up and used aerodynamic braking and ended up stopping in plenty of time, but pretty convinced CONC ops on 23 were banned after that.

I alway found 23 the be a bit nervewracking driving on the airfield, we were supposed to have a briefing on runways in use etc before venturing out but generally just winged it - approaching to cross 23 in Pixie there was always doubt in your mind as the whether it was a taxiway or runway that day! Definate loss of face to ask on the radio, so just hoped that the wig-wags at you intersection hadn't failed, had a good look down the approach and drove over!

Off back to work in Fraggle Radar!

[windowjob]

I had the dubious honour of abandoning a 05 departure!
BMA FK27 was very slow to roll off 05 (his request due the wind) against an inbound on final for10L.
I didn't fancy what would happen over Block 27 if the inbound went round so told the BMA to stop. It was so windy it wasn't a problem to depart from where he'd stopped.
Oh and 10R was in use for Deps as well.
3 Runways and a planner to help with your phones/arrange gaps etc.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I recall coming in for a late spinner with B Watch to find they were running two landing streams to cut delays - 05R and 10L packed as tight as you can believe with 10R for deps. Didn't need ExLax in those days!

[Ian Brooks]

Have really enjoyed reading this as I used to live under 23 approach when I was kid
right where the point Northolt approach crossed.
Went camping down by Thames under 05 approach one day, that was fun as we nearly got blown away in the gale.

Ian B

[Loki]

I'm sure I remember a KLM DC8 landing on 23 on a very blustery day in the early 70s....went a long way down the runway before it fell out of what was left of the sky. It flew back to EHAM the next day with the gear down all the way.

[TopBunk]

The last approach I flew to LHR 23 (SRA) was 1st Feb 2002 in A319 G-EUOD as BA363 from LYS in VERY strong SW winds ar about 2200Z.

Another approach I recall was in B737-400 G-DOCD where we held at BNN for about 40 minutes in mod turbulence on BA4773 ex EDI on sector 4 of a double LHR-EDI day. We were vectored from BNN towards BIG then up to LAM then west and SRA to 23. The cloudbase was about 700ft (around the SRA limit iirc) and we came visual arounf that point but the encountered windshear of about 30kts resulting in a 2 white/2 red PAPI becoming 4 red and a w/s go-around! We had a rather hectic few minutes and ended up in STN with not much fuel left in 60kt SW winds - couldn't even use the airstairs! Many sick bags filled!

Remember landing 05 as a pax sometime on the early 1980's.

[A30yoyo]

A few shots of 05 being used for landing winter 70/71? from Air India earth mound
http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz20/A30yoyo/AF-727-LHR-05-900.jpg

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz20/A30yoyo/SX-CBD-LHR-05-900.jpg

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz20/A30yoyo/LH-737-05-900.jpg

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz20/A30yoyo/TAP-727-05-900.jpg

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz20/A30yoyo/Northwest-05-900.jpg

and one by Kjell Nilsson from QB or T2 carpark?Photos: Boeing 747-136 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/British-Airways/Boeing-747-136/0282437/L/&sid=470c82ed370c5816667a18d1668c8435)

The Piket/Bish book records rwy05 permanently withdrawn latter part 1993 (p95) and last use rwy23 27Oct 2002 by SAA 747

Where was the green beacon situated...I used to see one light up the sky over Heston about 1953?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Beacon was south of the 05R threshold in Beacon Road.

[A30yoyo]

I always assumed that what I saw was a beacon actually at Heston Airfield whereas the approach to LHR 05 was some 4 miles away

[trident3A]

Great photos yoyo thanks for sharing them!

[Musket90]

I remember the week before T4 opened (April 1986) due strong NE winds runway 05 was used for a couple of days. It made us all wonder how ATC would cope if it happened again after T4 opened.

[A30yoyo]

Emperor Sharjehan delivery flight

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz20/A30yoyo/sharjehan-800.jpg

United Arab Il-62 above intersection of 23/05 climbing off 10R

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz20/A30yoyo/su-aro-united-arab-airlines.jpg

and ONTOS taxying by the 05 threshold

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz20/A30yoyo/ONTOS.jpg

The airport police always arrived though :)

[A30yoyo]

The B-29 featured in Heathrow Skyport 14Jul2011 has been identified as a USAF example approaching RWY15R over the eastern end of the Colnbrook By-Pass (about 1949 :))...scroll down a bit on:
Heathrow Skyport - The independent voice of the airport since 1976: July 2011 Archives (http://www.skyport-heathrow.co.uk/2011/07/index.html?page=3)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Wow... I'd loved to have seen that B-29.

[windowjob]

I seem to remember (it's all becoming foggy now) a Pan Am freighter landing on 23 at night when it had a little ;) problem with an engine. From the Tower it was obvious that there was at least a fire, so bearing in mind the crew would be a little busy, nothing was said on the R/T but the Fire Service dispatched.
Eventually the fire was put out, there was serious damage and Boeing flew over to decide if it could be repaired or written off (they did repair it).
The crew eventually told us their side of the incident. On touchdown and selecting reverse, there was a small jolt on one throttle and all the parameters ran down on one so they thought it had run down. It was only when the engineer (yep had them then) noticed it was a bit orange outside that they realised it was on fire. The engine had dropped from it's front mounting severing all the cables, caught fire and also set fire to the wing!
And where did this all happen? Block 85 so took 2 Runways out.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Yep, remember that...

[Still Wee Jock]

Bit late in the day to reply to Over+Out's post in 2009 about the 'recent Swanwick manager' who validated on 23 at Heathrow, absolutely true, he was on my watch and I can remember talking to him when he was having a break during it. Everyone was absolutely stunned, but he did it. Bren/HD were you not in that day he was on our watch?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Possibly, if I was spinning. The only watch list I have is July, 1981 and none of the names ring a bell about Swanwick Managers.... It wasn't unknown for trainees doing boards to be faced with something they hadn't seen before but a bit of initiative came in useful!

[Warped Factor]

If my memory serves me correctly the chap in question arrived after the move to TC had taken place, so that was after '93.

He's now off to boss the Swiss about, wonder if he'll be back in the future to take on the top job in NATS?

[By George]

I have just retired, thanks EGLL for being the best ATC in the world. No I never landed on 23/05 but always remember that awful pad numbering system. Thanks for the great memories. You will always be the best. SQ308/319

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

By George. Welcome to the land of retirement and I hope you enjoy a long, happy and healthy one. I've been retired a while but we probably spoke over the years.

Take good care...

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Warped Factor and SWJ..... all I can say is, didn't he do well?

[Talkdownman]

HD, I don't think he did much time at the coal face. At least you and I can rest easy. Promotion isn't everything...

Mildred

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Oh, how I agree Mildred!!

[Brian 48nav]

Who is he then? Certainly not the Fat Jock!

[Warped Factor]

Brian, see here. (http://www.canso.org/cms/showpage.aspx?id=2752)

Though they've got his bio slightly wrong with regards his location. It was TC, not the airport.

[southern duel]

I was Checker for the last runway inspection of 05 ( when it was used) with 09R for departures.

It went something like this
The inspection would start off on 118.7 at the threshold of 23 ( always towards landing aircraft) at Block 78 ( as was then) it was
ATC "cHecker vacate and hold short of 09R and contact 118.5"
Checker "Tower Checker holding short 09R Block 85 and short of 05."
ATC "Checker after the departing Lufty B737 on 09r and landing sabena B737 on 05 your cleared to cross 09R at block 85."
Checker above repeated.
Checker " Checker has entered 05 and crossing 09R block 85"
Checker " Checkers vacated block 85"
ATC " Roger Checker call 118.7
Checker " Tower Checkers back with you Block 90 on 05"
ATC " Thanks Checker continue "
The inspection was then completed in the normal on/off way.

This was the only time that conflicting runways were used on different ATC frequencies as when 23 was used for landing 27R was used for departures not 27L ( 27R was used for heavies that couldnt take the 1999m runway.

exciting times especially when 118.5 the departure controller gave the following instructions at the threshold.
" speedbird 999 once you see the landing aircraft on approach to 05 in your 2 o clock position start rolling and your cleared for take off !

bet that wouldnt happen now in the age of heath and safety gurus,

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Oh yes... It's a long way from 09R threshold to where the runways cross and clearing one for take-off with one on final was standard procedure. I did that with a BOAC chap one day and he said: "I'd prefer to wait until the lander has passed". I replied: "That's not the one I'm worried about; it's the one 3 miles behind him!". BOAC went.....

[soaringhigh650]

Was there ever much light aircraft (2-8 seaters) operating from Heathrow, Birmingham and Manchester at some point in the past?

[WHBM]

Was there ever much light aircraft (2-8 seaters) operating from Heathrow, Birmingham and Manchester at some point in the past?

The only reference I've seen for Heathrow was the Heathrow-Gatwick service operated by Westward Airways in 1969-70 with an Islander. Towards the end loads were so light that they chartered a Piper Cherokee, presumably taking up to 3 passengers, to operate some of these flights.

Back in the 1950s there were a number of Dragon Rapide (8 passenger) operators, including one, Island Air Services, which did large numbers of sightseeing circuits from alongside the spectators enclosure. One of their aircraft was lost when it got into the wake turbulence of an arriving Straocruiser when trailing it on approach.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Ernie Raffles used to commute to Leeds every day in his Beech Baron (?) with the callsign Raffles 1.

[Talkdownman]

I thought it was a Travelair. Can't for the alzheimer's of me remember the reg. Plus I thought he was Eric. Plus I thought it was Manch. PB or AC will know.

Nurse, more medicine...

[SilentHandover]

Photos: Beech B55 Baron (95-B55) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/1065582/)


This one?

[Minesthechevy]

Southern Duel -

Is Jan still on the team? If so say hello to her from me.....

[southern duel]

Jan left a couple of years ago. took the money and run ..... Im jealous ! along with a few others so all new faces and voices now with no where near as much experience.

I have my own thoughts but hey what do i know !! only 20 years in Ops !!

[windowjob]

Eric Raffles to and from Manch. seem to recall he made raincoats as sported by the then PM Harold Wilson!
You can thank him for changing phraseology. "Behind the departing xxx line up 28R" well he did and was blown over. :ouch:
Thereafter it was "After the departing"

[heathrow, easy life]

If my memory serves me correctly the chap in question arrived after the move to TC had taken place, so that was after '93.

The person in question is the person who has now moved to Swiss ATC, I know i did his board as the examiner with Bert as the SRG inspector (Chairman). He (AB) had never seen 23, it was an interesting board with lots of prompts and questions, he did very well and passed with flying colours, we both remember it to this day.

[Dave Gittins]

It was a Beech 95 Travelair .. G-ASZC. I recall the callsign as "Raffles Zulu Charlie".

And I thought for the last 45 years (incorrectly I've just found) that it was Edgar.

Remember walking along the River Crane near the "pundit" on the south side and seeing C-46s parked.

[WHBM]

It was a Beech 95 Travelair .. G-ASZC. I recall the callsign as "Raffles Zulu Charlie".
He must have bought another one .....

Beech 95-A55 Baron, G-AYID, Eric Raffles (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1003703/)

[A30yoyo]

Seems he did! G-ASZC till 12/69 and G-AYID from 7/70 till 9/72....G-AYID became G-WOOD later. Can't find any pics of 'SZC...that's my pic of 'YID on the way for a fry-up in the Pan-Am canteen :)

[surfingatco]

Mr Swiss Control wasn't the first to validate whilst 23 was in use but he did it while I was Watch Training bod on X Watch, TC.

I may not have been the first but as I drove down the M4 on a rainy morning in (May?) 1983 for my approach board and saw the traffic coming from the left my first thought was s**t!

That was in the days of ILS on 23 and I have many memories, most of which have been repeated here. I do remember getting 5 aircraft within 10 miles from touchdown, using 3 miles spacing when there were departures and an Egypt Air A300 touching down at Block 85 and using the taxiway at the end as a high speed turn off (sorry, RET!).

SA

[Talkdownman]

Remember walking along the River Crane near the "pundit" on the south side and seeing C-46s parked.
Lufthansa's?

[ZOOKER]

Interesting that AB should end up in Switzerland, a country very fastidious when it comes to the matter of 'time'.
At an ATC unit SW of POL, a SRATCOH sheet was produced using 'local time'.
The clock above this sheet, also showed 'local time', as it had for 30 years.
Mr. Swiss Control changed the aforementioned clock to show permanent UTC, (because it said so in MATS Pt. 1).
During the unit's busy summer months many ATCOs plugged in very late, because ATCOs are, 'only human'.

Have 'graffiti boards' appeared in Switzerland yet? :E

[WHBM]

Lufthansa's?
If they were C46s in a Lufthansa livery they belonged to US charter operator Capitol, who leased LH several during the period 1964-69, keeping them on the US register (so US crews). There were generally two that came to LHR in and out early morning most weekdays, one from Frankfurt and one from Dusseldorf.

[A30yoyo]

The river was possibly the Longford/Duke of Northumberland double river? didn't an aircraft run off 23 into it around 1950?....the Crane flows on the Eastern boundary (through Cranford) A few candidates from the 50s below but I agree more likely to be the Capitol/Lufthansa jobs
Curtiss C-46R Commando, N7848B, Riddle Airlines (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1001298/)

Curtiss C-46 Commando, LX-LAA, Luxembourg Airlines (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1180596/)

Curtiss C-46D Commando, N68852, Borges Tillotson Company (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1016976/)

[A30yoyo]

G-INFO confirms that an Eric Raffles owned G-ASZC then G-AYID and also that G-AYID was registered to him at 2 Bradford Rd, Manchester which Google Earth Streetview shows as a boarded up Victorian factory, brick-built. By chance this week my 'bed-time story' on Radio4 has been the writer Jeanette Winterson reading from her autobiographical 'Why be Happy when You could be Normal!... in episode 5 she mentions that in 1959 her birth-mother, a clothing factory worker,pregnant by a Teddy-Boy, was found a place in a 'Mother and Baby' home by her boss 'Old Man Raffles' , from where Jeanette was adopted by the Wintersons
(from the scant info on the net 'Old Man Raffles' was probably Emanuel Raffles and Eric his youngest son had the Baron registered at the family factory E Raffles &Co, 2 Bradford Rd, Manchester)
episode 5 i-player
BBC iPlayer - Book of the Week: Why Be Happy When You Could Be Normal?: Episode 5 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b016pfyh)

[Dave Gittins]

I suppose I should have been more specifc. Where we used to walk (and I think it is the Duke of Northumberland's River) we crossed one river and walked between them, probably via a bridge which still seems to be there near the junction of Bedfont Road and Long Lane. they certainly were in Luthansa colours and there was sometimes one and sometimes two and these little walks (with my Uncles dog) were about 4.00 pm on a Saturday afternoon, I assume about 1963-64.

There was nothing between the southern peri road and the central building in those days (except grass and 28 L) and the C-46s were parked in clear view.

[Talkdownman]

ISTR that the Capitol/Lufthansa C-46s were N9890Z/91Z/92Z.

[WHBM]

There's a 1964 Lufthansa timetable page which includes their scheduled London C46 cargo flights on line here :

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/lh64/lh64-16.jpg

which shows that two aircraft were due both in and out in the early morning. However, it was common for certain cargo flights to be cancelled, particularly at weekends, if there was insufficient commercial load, or if there was the opposite, to run extras.

There were a range of Capitol C46s leased to Lufthansa over time in the 1960s. My records show regs N9890-3Z, and also 66326, 68966, 7923C, 5076N and 1312V. Capitol generally just kept the reg of the previous owner for its secondhand purchases, which these and nearly all of the rest of their fleet were.

[A30yoyo]

Nice C-46 photo in post#1 and other 60s stuff in #13,14,19
London Airport in colour - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=107960)

[pax britanica]

Dave G
I pretty much grew up in the area you are talking about and the rivers are indeed the Colne and the D of N Canal. Apparently the longest stretch of parallel waterways in UK (?)They once ran from the SW corner of the airport all along the south side before heading off towards Bedfont. Most of the way there was path between them. They were diverted when 28L/10R was extended beyond its original length at block79 if I remember the airport geography correctly and the perimeter road had to be diverted requiring new bridges. Later on when the T4 to 10R southern holding point was built they disappeared into a kind of tunnel.
Back in the day though the river bank west of the emergency access gate opposite the pub in Stanwell Rising Sun?) was great place to spot on a nice day especially if on easterlies. With Deux Ponts , CV990s etc breaking up the flow of BA Viscounts and Vanguards who couldn’t love it. (Mind you at 59 I am feeling the effects of watching or hearing all those VC10s depart from about 300m away) Bit different in winter as the wind swept across the Tundra that was LHR Southside pre cargo centre.
What’s this got to do with C46s ? Well living where I did I had a great view of anything coming off 28L and remember the excitement of seeing the C46 for the very first time – would have spoiled the day had I know it would be a fixture for 4 years. It really seemed to wallow and struggle aloft even for a piston prop but needless to say it made it every day. ( No surprise that they fell out the sky seemingly monthly in Andean S America)
Moving on a decade and all that was left of the big props was the Kar air DC6 which rumbled gorgeously out at 7 every morning until LLHR stopped providing Avgas and the wonderful sound of four straining pistons was never heard again in anger at LHR .
Apologies for thread drift

PB

[WHBM]

all that was left of the big props was the Kar air DC6 which rumbled gorgeously out at 7 every morning until LLHR stopped providing Avgas and the wonderful sound of four straining pistons was never heard again in anger at LHR
Almost. Air Atlantique popped in very occasionally with their DC6s, either doing cargo charters or subbing for somebody else, into the 2000s.

I too remember the Kar Air DC6, which routed home through Manchester. It was finally sold in early 1982, having done this trip several days a week to the end, and I remember it could be seen occasionally climbing over Manchester city centre at about 0900 on its last leg home as I walked in to work there in the early 1980s.

[A30yoyo]

Unless they've been renamed the Twin Rivers, now forming the Southwest boundary of Heathrow,(both artificial and their courses moved at least twice ) are the Longford River and the Duke of Northumberland's River. They are both drawn from the River Colne. The Longford River runs on under Hanworth Air Park , past Bushy Park to Hampton Court (its purpose) where it joins the Thames. The Duke of Northumberlands River runs into the Crane near Hounslow then divides off again in Twickenham for Syon Park(its purpose) then into the Thames.
The lower stretch of the River Crane was recently sacrificed by Thames Water engineers when a 2 metre valve on a Sewer from Heathrow jammed shut (31 Oct 2011) and they were unable to remove by road tanker sufficient of the backed-up effluent.The lower 7 miles of the Crane was seriously polluted killing approx 3,000 fish.
Wikipedias available for all rivers mentioned.

[pax britanica]

30YO
you are indeed quite right it was/is the Longford River not the Colne.
Longford being another of the 'lost villages of Heathrow though it rmians quite 'villagey' to this day in spite of being seemingly adjoing the 09L threshold
PB

[A30yoyo]

Yes, Longford's charm was preserved by the Colnbrook By-Pass, I think...we used to live in a Victorian cottage backing onto the Longford River in Bedfont called Longford Villa when I worked near Heathrow.
I think an HP42 broke through the culvert that carried the Longford under Hanworth Air Park damaging its undercarriage in the Thirties

[A30yoyo]

Reviving RWY23/05 thread [good as any :)]....Britain from Above have just posted Aerofilms photos of the infant Heathrow in a batch of 6,000 new images featuring many airfields either side of WWII.
Search results | Britain from Above (http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/asearch?search=heathrow)

Register on Britain from Above | Rescue the Past (http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/) to get zoom/comment/pin facilities, new uploads via 'Galleries' then Newest.

Heston,Stansted, Hatfield, Luton, Ringway, Weston, RAF Locking, Short Rochester, Poole Harbour etc