A320 Rumour

[sisyphos]

heard this : to avoid bypass pay, CX will integrate the KA seniority list in order to "offer" senior CX F/O's ( on bypass pay) a command on the A320..

[A. Le Rhone]

Why not offer S/O's slots as F/O's on the A320. They already do that over at KA and let's face it, they already know the SOP's!

[gliderboy]

How would that work?

All A320 commands in KA have been allocated and trained up.

What would happen to the KA pilots??
:sad:

[Sleeve_of_Wizard]

they'd get the bypass pay!:confused:

[boocs]

So I guess that also means that F/O's in KA who are more senior to CX F/O's will still get a Command ahead of them.....(the CX f/o's) :ok:
b.

[Rook]

Personally I think it is just a matter of time. The writing is on the wall. In the next 2-10 years, one of two things will happen:
1- The line between KA and Cx pilots with be blurred further (if not erased entirely) or;
2- Management will try to keep us separate as long as possible and try and use the whipsaw. They will try and make us race each other to the bottom when times are bad. (More likely if the China flying continues to depend on keeping KA separate)

For all those involved, myself included, I hope we can plan ahead and avoid that trap. Personally, I am very happy to hear about the possible integration of the DPA and the AOA. This could be the key to getting the two groups strong enough to fend of either scenario. Personally, I don't care what paint job is on tail as long as it benefits our careers.

[sisyphos]

Are there more senior F/O's in KA at all ? Would bypass pay be triggered ( for KA crew) if the command slots would go to ( integrated) F/O's or as in CX only when CPT's fly on extension ? Guess a lot up to interpretation..:confused:

[Lowkoon]

Just interested as to why you are worried about A320 captains in another company when you already have 744 captains in your company junior to just about everyone? If you are chasing bypass pay, there is you target. It is not guys in KA who have not, and may never be integrated. Once the freighter goes on to the same pay, KA is the least of your worries. You will effectively have 400 captains on bases who have nearly a whole two years of experience in the company. Thats gotta hurt more than some 320 guys flying to the worlds biggest ****eholes 5 or 6 days a week.

Remember, if KA gets integrated, we bring our jets with us. A neutral result to you. Your biggest most obvious target is already underneath you on your current list. You should all be on command bypass pay shouldn't you? :confused:

[jonathon68]

I guess the real issue is what are the relative "worst" (least cost to employer) aspects of our contracts (CX vs KA).

You can be sure that Management will want to combine us all on the lowest combination of the two!

[bobrun]

CX took over KA. It was clearly explained that it wasn't a merger. Should the KA pilots be integrated on the same seniority list as the CX guys, they will join at the bottom, or around the time CX took over KA. I have nothing against KA crew, I'm only saying it as it is.

[A. Le Rhone]

...ok Einstein, so the same logic will apply when Air China finally assumes control of CX will it?

Air China pilots will come to fly 'The Groups' new HKG-based A380's because after all they took over CX! It will clearly be explained it wasn't a merger and you will go to the bottom of their list and be based in Chengdu flying to Xian every day.

Be careful what you push for.

Suggest you look 4 years in front of your face rather than 4 months.

It's well and truly time the KA & CX pilots got together (with their associations doing the same) and created a unified and cohesive group concentrating on the BIG picture, not just what seems to suit one particular individual on any given week.

[Rook]

well put A le rhone

[404 Titan]

A. Le Rhone & Rook

Just for the record both airlines took a 20% stake in each others airline. This strictly speaking is a partial merger as it was an equity swap. It wasn’t as you imply a one way street. It could just as easily go the other way.

For the record I believe the only fair method of integrating the two bodies is the “Y” shaped method with those employed since the takeover on a common seniority list.

[treboryelk]

"Y" list looks like a perfect way to go! suprised it has not been introduced already

[bobrun]

I agree, "Y" is an acceptable way to go.

By the way, isn't there already several KA crew that came over to CX and "lost" seniority in the process? Their DOJ on the CX seniority list is somewhere in 2008, although they've been employed by KA for several more years prior to that.

[trevfly]

New staff numbers for KA pilots come 1st of June. OK its only a couple of digits before our current number, but more sign of things to come?

[Glass Half Empty]

"I agree, "Y" is an acceptable way to go. "

A statement from those in KA I think!

For those in CX it is:

"sorry boys, takeover means bottom of the list"

No vitriol here just fact of the matter. You cannot dress it any other way.

[A. Le Rhone]

...so again, by your own logic you won't complain when Air China takes over Cathay and YOU go to the bottom of that list.

By your own myopic precedent you would have to then say there was 'No vitriol here just fact of the matter'. You could not dress it any other way.

Be careful of what you try to push for today. It will bight you on the bum tomorrow.

There is no other way than unity between CX&KA pilots. If divisions are allowed to occur then none of us will benefit.

Is that such a difficult concept?

[Grivation]

CX pilots can't manage unity within their own ranks - let alone with the KA pilot group.

[404 Titan]

Glass Half Empty

For the record I am CX. Don’t judge the majority of CX crew by the very few that actually post here. Most of us don’t want to screw over our KA brothers.

A. Le Rhone
...so again, by your own logic you won't complain when Air China takes over Cathay and YOU go to the bottom of that list.
This is more appropriate.
...so again, by your own logic you won't complain if Air China takes over Cathay and YOU go to the bottom of that list.
You seem to think Air China’s taking over CX it is a fate a comply. It isn’t by a long shot. If anything was to happen in the long term it would probably be a complete merger. Remember for a takeover to occur there has to be a willing seller and I doubt Swire will want to relinquish control of CX and KA any time soon. To support my point just have a look at Swire’s profit and how much CX contributed to it in 2008.

[Lowkoon]

It may be in AOAs interest to at least offer the Y. Offer KA the bottom, and you have an instant disgruntled group the management can use against you. "hey KA boys, want to fly the 380 for 10% less than the CX boys will do it for?" "Sure, they screwed us over on integration, why not... " Plenty of examples of this in aviation to discount it as a possibility. As stated earlier, look forward with the benefit of hindsight. The "what part of takeover dont you understand" vitriol is stale and pathetically short sighted.

[And Then]

Better off separate from CX. Many good guys in CX but they are divided and some of their juniors have that legacy carrier arrogance that always ends in tears.

I would never expect to screw a CX driver out of a basing or a long haul command in any integration. However, like many in KA, we have achieved commands and wealth early so are in a good position to behave badly and look after ourselves in any of the groups future opportunities. That is, I can work for a lot less than the average CX driver in exchange for lifestyle.

Not that I think CX pilots will get any say in it. Don't cock it up though and create justification for a group of pilots to do commands, basings or new types for a lot less.

[old rope]

It has yet to be explained to me why intergrating with CX is in any way beneficial for the average KA drivers long term employment. I will profess to being a bit of a "flat earther" though.

Cx has only half heartedly agreed to talks on the subject when they were desperate to get something from us (SLS), and the AOA publicly shows only token interest in the subject. Hardly furtile ground for the couple of DPA guys who have a vision on the subject. I respect them for perservering in the face of determined indifference though.

That only leaves forums like this where the subject quickly degeneates to that of the ambitious challenging the insecure