Disturbed Rest before a flight and FTLs

[glider12000]

My friend was disturbed during rest 3 times prior to a standby report, with the airline trying to call her out to make her report for a flight at the start of standby time.

What is the rules to govern this CAP371 covers this, but she is working for a Swedish Airline and I have yet been able to find whether the CAP371 rules are similar or not under EU-Ops. Any help would be appreciated, as her company are putting a lot of pressure on a lot of the other crew doing similar things.

[Litebulbs]

Turn the phone off?

[Emma Gemma]

Crew cannot be disturbed during rest period. Simple as that. If the company is also doing it to other crew they should be reported as they are violating certain regulations.

[bfisk]

The company's OM should address this.

[Hotel Mode]

but she is working for a Swedish Airline

Would this be the same Swedish airline that has had 737NG cabin crew operating on 737 classics with no training? Sounds like they do their own thing anyway.

[Picasa]

When Crewing call tell them "you will be starting your rest period from the time you put the phone down"......they won't call back, trust me.

PS Your Cabin Crew Manager may do later though.;)

[UFGBOY]

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts!!!

Efharisto!

[Ten West]

When I call SB's out, I allow them the full 90 minutes travelling time before report. If the report time is the same as the start of SB time then they're not usable for that flight. End Of. Standby duty starts at standby time, not during your rest period. You'd be within your rights to refuse the duty if you're disturbed during your rest period.

If crews want to phone in of their own volition before going to sleep so that they know if they've been allocated to a flight and can plan their rest, then that's fine, but once into the rest period prior to the start of standby I wouldn't dream of calling them up.

If crew are being called out for flights without enough notice to get to their bases and report then I'd ask your rostering bods to look at moving the SB times so that SB blocks are actually covering the travelling time as well as the flight's report. Seems like they're pretty random at the moment. :bored:

PS: Apologies for posting in a Cabin Crew forum, but crewing is where I work, so I know a little about this sort of thing.

Right. back to lurking. :ok:

[boredcounter]

Just interested, what time of day did this occur please?

[glider12000]

Standby began originally at 8am, first phonecall was at 6am, then 6.30am with a final call at 7.30am

[mooguy]

She is 100% correct.......no questions asked.

Hopefully this won't happen to you again...........:ok:

[Ten West]

Totally correct. Your Crewing guys are well out of line. :=

If they're doing this as a matter of course to everyone, either:

1) Turn your phones off until the start of SB duty. (Easiest option)

Or..

2) Tell them they've disturbed your rest and you'll now be unavailable until you've completed another rest period. (Ballsy option!)

It may not make you popular, but rules are there for a reason. With a bit of luck the penny will drop and things will change. :ok:

[boredcounter]

I must admit, I am going to go against the flow here.

I have called Crew many times before standby and at 6 in the morning to boot.

I have found a genuine 'sorry to disturb you before your standby starts, but I (not the airline) am stuck, could you please report @ 0800 for an XYZ and back' is normally responded to with a 'yes'.

That said, two further calls after a no is not acceptable.

It all depends on the roster practise of the airline concerned, but 0800 should rest your friend to conduct maximum standby followed by a flight duty (and Commanders Discretion) and that could equate to getting home the following morning. Thats what saying no can lead to for another crew?

If the 0800 standby is for 'hours', then that is wrong and needs to be addressed.


Hope it hasn't happened again,



Bored

[Firestorm]

Your friend should submit an ASR or a report to CHIRP.

[Picasa]

I can see some merit to Boredcounter's post and agree

Back in the day there was always a 'you scratch my back' ethos, if you could give crew extra call out time before their SB started, especially if it's a L/Haul trip, it was very often appreciated, ofcourse you always came up against the odd awkward so and so who did object, they then mysteriously found themselves getting the minimum report time for all duties and couldn't work out why!!! - you try getting ready, packing and travelling to work in 90mins - Crewing will always win.

It seems that 'get along' attitude may have been eroded from the profession nowadays

[Ten West]

I too can see some merit in what my colleague "Boredcounter" is saying, but that leads to another problem:

If you're relying on goodwill and a "sorry to disturb you" so that you can crew flights, then what happens when a crew member decides (Quite legally) that they're not going to play ball, and that they won't come out from Standby because of disturbed rest? Relying on luck and people's good nature is a very shaky foundation upon which to build a roster.
The chances are you'll be stuck for cover. Maybe because the management have seen that you seem to be coping okay with the numbers of SB's you've got (They won't care how you're doing it) so they'll be reluctant to allocate more SB's.

If you need to cover a wider time band then you need more SB's. They shouldn't be putting you or the crew member in the position of having to 'Stretch' SB times by disturbing rest.

My airline has a system whereby a crew member can log onto their live roster and check what they're in for in real time. If I allocate a call-out from Standby, then as soon as I hit the key the update is published. Many of our crews check on there before going to bed to see what's going on for the next morning.
Of course, this doesn't help in the case of being called out to cover for a "Sick on report" or a car breakdown, but it does provide us with a means to keep crew members informed without disturbing their rest.

Our crews are obliged to take no longer than 90 minutes from call-out to reporting point. We always take the 90 minutes as a given constant in our SB call-out plans.

They're always welcome to call us at any time anyway. I will never call them during their rest period. Okay, you may be able to 'bring them forward' but what if they refuse with disturbed rest and they're the last SB? You've lost them for that day..

And there won't be a damn thing you can do about it. :\

[boredcounter]

Ten,

Trust me the goodwill worked both ways, it is the only way it does. Perhaps you work for a larger airline than I ever have, but I honestly prefer the smaller ‘family environment’. The last time I worked with Cabin Crew, I guess we peaked at about 250 of them on paper rosters. A mutual swap was never met with no without a reason, and where at all possible other names to try and swap with. All Crew were actively disturbed on their rest period to stop them leaving home when flights cancelled over night and put on standby, etc etc. In fact a number of grounded Cabin Crew assigned to us changed their views on almost everything when they worked with us, contact before standby one of them.

I somewhat disagree with Picasa’s comment that Crewing will always win, it is more a case that they are a good friend to have, who, will play harder by the rules when required and know the rules that bit better.

I too now work with online roster access, albeit in box hauling now, not the passenger world. It amazes me how many roster changes are accepted on days off and during rest periods, so thinking about work whilst on all periods free from duty.


Bored

[6chimes]

The problem with regularly calling people before their rostered sby time is that it suggests that the rostering system is not working properly. If the operation cannot be crewed or covered within the current rostering system, then it is the crewing department that needs to adapt and NOT resort to regularly disturbing crew to cover the inadequacies. As commented earlier it would be wise to have a fresh look at sby start times and see if they fit with the current operational timetable.

That said, I agree that it is almost impossible to have the exact number of heads in the right place at all times. That though should only be a result of previous delays, canx, out of hours etc. and not as a result of rostering practice.

The trouble with using the 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' approach is that it almost always works one way. After all in a larger airline how do you repay the favour? So if you are not careful you build up a certain amount of antagonism against you (crewing).

This kind of practice is often most used in airlines where there is a crew compliment that are younger and newer to the industry and afraid of standing up for themselves or unaware of the rules. In this current climate many crew will be very very frightened of causing a possible flight delay or refusal of duty. Crewing do need to be mindful that whilst we live in turbulent times and we must all work together to keep our airlines afloat, it would be very easy to pass their own departments 'weaknesses' onto their crew and visa versa. The crew/crewing relationship is one that needs very careful nurturing to get the best productivity.

We all work in 24/7/360 industry so we all know the disruption that it has on our lives. No-one can sustain working in an industry where your working week is completely at the behest of the employer and you end up with no ability to plan anything away from work. So it is not quite as simple as calling someone who starts work at 0900 to come in at 0800 on the odd occasion.

6

[glider12000]

wee one.

I do not work for the airline in question, but was merely asking on behalf of a friend that wanted some advice on the situation.

Thanks everyone for the advice, she has taken on the advice given.

[Ten West]

...The trouble with using the 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' approach is that it almost always works one way. After all in a larger airline how do you repay the favour? So if you are not careful you build up a certain amount of antagonism against you (crewing).

Valid points all. :ok:

Once you've been doing Crewing a while though you build up a mental 'Black Book' of people you know will help out for a favour which you can repay immediately by removing them from a future duty date of their choice and giving them an extra day off, etc.

Whenever someone agrees to help out like that I always ask them there and then what I can do for them, and do it while they're on the phone. That way there's none of this "I did Crewing a favour three months ago and now I want Saturday off" business that no-one will remember anything about.

You also build up a mental 'Black Book' of people you know will only give you trouble and to steer clear of! :=

Trust me the goodwill worked both ways, it is the only way it does. Perhaps you work for a larger airline than I ever have, but I honestly prefer the smaller ‘family environment’. The last time I worked with Cabin Crew, I guess we peaked at about 250 of them on paper rosters...

yes, I'd say that mine is a little larger than that - but we're still in four figures! ;)

... A mutual swap was never met with no without a reason, and where at all possible other names to try and swap with.Same as me. If they want to swap and it's illegal we'll tell them why it's illegal so they can find someone else to swap with and try again. Some crews have trouble understanding the fact that it's actually easier for us to swap and approve a duty than it is to reject it and have to call or email the individuals concerned to explain why we've rejected it!

...All Crew were actively disturbed on their rest period to stop them leaving home when flights cancelled over night and put on standby, etc etc.Yep. We do that too. I have no problem disturbing rest if there's nothing for them to fly when they get there! May as well call them early and let them have a lie-in.

In fact a number of grounded Cabin Crew assigned to us changed their views on almost everything when they worked with us, contact before standby one of them.That is a very good point, and one which I'm glad you brought up. We should do a quick secondment to each other's department on a regular basis. When the two groups spend their working lives totally apart there's always the risk of alienation.

I know there are certain Cabin Crew members who regard Crewing as being nothing but sad, miserable gits with no lives so they just want to wreck the lives of others by giving them unpopular duties, etc.
I also know Crewing guys who regard Cabin Crews as little more than inconsequential biscuit-chuckers who do nothing but whinge about having to fly for a living and spend the sunny weekends going sick!

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. I love in when Cabin Crew guys pop over to see me because I can show them exactly what happens in crewing. And how little we have to work with sometimes!
I'd be interested to spend a day in a Crew Room too so that those with gripes against Crewing can tell me to my face rather than moan to their mates. That way the problems could be addressed and we would all have easier lives.

I somewhat disagree with Picasa’s comment that Crewing will always win, it is more a case that they are a good friend to have, who, will play harder by the rules when required and know the rules that bit better.I always think it's not a matter of which 'side' wins. If the plan works and the flight goes then we all win. That way we've all still got jobs.

I too now work with online roster access, albeit in box hauling now, not the passenger world. It amazes me how many roster changes are accepted on days off and during rest periods, so thinking about work whilst on all periods free from duty.You're right again. I'm not at work again until the end of next week, but here I am writing about Crewing on a web forum!

... I should get out more. :O

[PPRuNeUser0190]

Having worked on the scheduling department and now working as a flight crew member I have some experience with the subject seen from both sides :-)

- For me personnally there is no problem for trying to call a person before there standby duty begins unless they're still in a rest period of a previous flight/duty. They don't have to pick up their phone ofcourse, but they can. Personally when I sleep before my standby duty, my phone is off, so you can try calling as much as you want :-)

- When I called someone before their standby duty began, it was never to let them begin a flight duty at the beginning of their standby period. It was to inform them well ahead of time, that saves them the need to rush to work.

- I only called starting from 9 am till 5 pm (unless still in rest from previous duty) as any other department within my company with no access to crew rosters would do.

- I never did favours in return because someone did the company a favour. When you have to convince people to do something and give them a present right away, the atmosphere in the company isn't that good imo. However people knew, when they requested something (day off, certain flight,...) in an unpublished roster they would get it in 95% of the times. Because it becomes a chain of events when you start doing favours.
e.g.: someone will do a flight, but they don't want to do their flight 3 days later. So you have to find another person to cover that flight --> 2 roster changes in stead of 1 --> roster instability.
Of course when someones gives up a day off you should be very flexible as crew scheduling department as this people gives up the only day that is fix in their roster :-) But never at the cost of other people. When someone gives up a day off, I gave them 2 extra days off that month where they had normally a standby period.

- Saying your rest begins after someone calls you would not work in our company, 1 simple answer: "you don't have to pick up your phone".

To conclude it comes down to 2 simple things:
Be honest and use some common sense, that is for both of the parties. By being honest I also mean telling scheduling when they go out of line. In most cases they acted with good intentions, but they are also learning every day.

So my advice to the threadstarter: if you're sleeping, put off you phone and sleep :-)

[Ten West]

Rest period from a previous duty?? :confused:

Rest is always preceding the report time of a new duty in my understanding.

[PPRuNeUser0190]

Yeah you're correct but then treat your phonecall as "the start of a new duty" if you know what I mean.

When someone did a FDP of 14 hours I would not call before the beginning of the rest of their previous duty + 14 hours.

The rest you need before a flight is related to the previous duty as I'm sure you will know :-)

[Togalk]

I am a Captain with a ME airline. At the start of the briefing I ask the crew if they worked the night before, how much rest they had and if they were on standby for this flight. The get crapped on by the crewing dept. so I find out if they are legal. If they aren't I offload them.

If you think you arent legal for your flight tell your Capt. If he has any balls he'll take care of it.

It's ultimately his responsibility.

[Ten West]

Good call. :ok:

No-one wants to break laws. Even a minor transgression of CAP371 (In the UK) will have the CAA on the company's case.

If a company is having to bend rules or break them in order to get flights away then that needs to be addressed.

[Hotel Mode]

No-one wants to break laws. Even a minor transgression of CAP371 (In the UK) will have the CAA on the company's case.


Unfortunately the UK CAA has never been great at monitoring aircraft based in the UK whose AOC is elsewhere.

[wiggy]

I've found the following actions always avoids any awkward discussions with Ops:

1. Set alarm clocks:) for start of standby period.
2. Take landline off hook and /or turn off mobile ( believe me mobiles do come with an off switch).
3. Go to bed......

[boredcounter]

Rest is (must be) driven by the previous duty, its minimum given in the OM and then to the Commander to reduce as he sees fit, not pre duty?

[Ten West]

Indeed it does. But it runs backwards from the report time of the next FDP though, for however long it needs to be, dependent on the previous duty as you say, ie: it doesn't start at the off-duty time of the previous duty. Except in the case of minimum rest of course!

We all know all this anyway. I was just clearing something up that was posted a few days back which I may have misinterpreted where I took it that someone thought that their rest ran from off-duty time rather than from next report minus rest period length.

Looks confusing written down, doesn't it? :}

[boredcounter]

I think we are now into the big grey area.

If rest is to be worked back from the next rostered report, no Crew may be contacted, or indeed brought forward to operate prior to thier next rostered report time?

I have no issues with contacting Crew after minimum rest earned has been achieved, and I think many would do so also. The grey area being the relative unsocial hours.

Wiggy however sums it up a treat, turn all phones off during rest, (or accept all calls). This issue was taken to the FOI in a past life at another Airline. The FOI was certainly of the opinion that 'answering the phone is optional, if Company phone at such times that you answer the phone to friends and family, how on earth is Company disturbing your rest'. I grant you not applicable in this case due times given.

[Ten West]

From our Ops 'Bible'

"The minimum rest period for (Crew), which must be taken before undertaking a flying duty period, shall be at least as long as the preceding..." Blah blah blah.

Before undertaking a FDP. Not after having completed an FDP. In our company at least. ;)

...If rest is to be worked back from the next rostered report, no Crew may be contacted, or indeed brought forward to operate prior to their next rostered report time?

Yup. Got it in one. The only thing we're allowed to ring them during rest for is to either let them know that their flight has been cancelled (Usually because it's gone on to a different fleet type) or to call them in a certain window prior to report to let them know of delays and thus delay report in a single FDP.
If we call them on the offchance of bringing them forward and they say "Oh, you've disturbed my rest - I can't operate now!" Then they're perfectly entitled to come off the duty. It's our fault for gambling on bringing them forward and losing.

And that's the way it should be in my opinion. That way everyone knows where they stand, and if A/C have to sit on the ground because of not enough stanby crews to cover, then someone will learn from it and roster better standby coverage next season.
If it becomes standard practice to "Stretch" standbies to cover several flights then the bean counters will happily let it carry on (because it's cheaper) but the minute it all goes Tango Uniform it'll be you and me that are hauled up for a "hats on / no coffee/ no biscuits" chat to be asked why we're going against operating procedure.

Don't expect any help or back-up from the accountants either. If we keep coping, they'll keep doing it.

[boredcounter]

Yep have all that in A7.17 too, but it is in the way you read it.

Given the minimum rest definitions, is it unreasonable to contact someone on rostered rest of 16 hours to bring them forward 2 after 12 hours off? I would say yes, unless that brings them into a more favourable report to be exploited, which is unacceptable. However, the change might just finish them earlier? They are still rested by the rules.

It is just that, there is no 'Ops Bible' as you put it, it is the approved FTLS and in some areas it is open to discussion and agreement. Breach it's meaning and you will be told by the approving body.

To take your case in point (I think?):

14 hours earned

Called after 12 hours

Duty refused

Back on duty 12 hours later on SBY, to work maximum standby + FDP and allowable Commanders discertion?


'And that's the way it should be in my opinion. That way everyone knows where they stand, and if A/C have to sit on the ground because of not enough stanby crews to cover, then someone will learn from it and roster better standby coverage next season.'

Ten, if you buy into that statement, there is no hope at all. An aircraft sat on the ground is a very costly asset indeed...........................


Bored

[Ten West]

I fully agree my friend, an aeroplane sat on the ground is no good to anyone. I just think it's unfair when bending rules is considered a standard practice by people higher up the food chain in some companies (Not mine, I hasten to add!) who will happily take the credit for reduced costs due to lower headcount but who will back away and say "Not me Guv!" when things go wrong.

Anyway, thanks for raising some interesting points. :ok:

I hope that this thread has not been too much of a diversion from the usual business of Cabin Crew members, but hopefully it's been interesting.

All the best, 10W.