Further paycuts at Ryanair

[Carmoisine]

After receiving a Memo stating that we would now have to pay for Rental cars and Hotels at your twice yearly recurrant Sims further cuts have been anounced at Ryanair.


Sector pay has been reduced by approximatly 1800 Net a year
Base transfers will be subject to a further 10 percent cut in Basic salary
New Captains take a 10 percent cut in basic salary and 10 percent cut in Sector pay


Overall some very large slices off a very poor package already. On the Ryanair website they claim to have the best paid Pilots in Europe.

[McBruce]

Where did you hear this? or is it written some where? (base transfer)

[Aussie]

Someone should do em for faulse advertising... best paid pilots.... PFFFF :eek: :D

[delwy]

or is it written some where? (base transfer)

No, it is never written anywhere until they have established it (whatrver it is). The reduced pay on base transfer (especially, at the beginning, if it is for a transfer "desired" by the pilot) entrapment has been used before. Some people have been told about it recently and have passed the word along. If you need to know and it is relevant to you, just ask Ryanair what the story is. In fact it would be a very good idea if you are going for command, becuase once you start they will consider you to be commited to taking what you are given once the command is granted - can you imagine the "you mean you don't want this command on our terms" in Oliver Twist "please can I have some more" type outrage!?

[INKJET]

It was bound to go down this road given the over supply of pilots in the current market, Ryanair are a one trick poney, namely price. They now have an increasing cost base through flying to proper airports and other airlines have driven their own costs down.

Churrning out an endless supply of happless cadets is part of it, i predict it will only be a matter of time before they become a virtual airline, with the only Captain's being contractors and F/O's bidding to fly for blocks of 200 hundred hours ie how much will you pay to gain 200 hundred hours NG time.

Some may think this extream, but who would have thought only a few years ago that you would have to pay £40 for an airline to issue you with a boarding card or being charged to take your duty free goods on board? how long before you'll be charged to get off.

MOL knows that most pilots are spineless when it comes to taking industrial action, sadly they have left it far to late in the business cycle.

What goes around comes around though as and when the market picks up Airbus have made it clear they wont do deals with MOL and that allows Boeing to price its future deals in a way that will recover the discounts over the last decade

[RAT 5]

This is a question for Flying Lawyer perhaps.

EZ started this a few years ago; new captains on reduced pay for 6 months. Now RYR as well it seems. Is this a probationary period? Are you an 'apprentice captin? Is there a further assessment and pass/fail check after 6 months? If not then I would have thought you had a claim under the 'less favourable treatment' rules of EU labour law. There are no seniority lists in these companies. Therefore all employees doing the same job are entitled to the same T's & C's. How can you have 'junior' captains doing a fulltime captains job when there is no senoirity list and pay them any less than any other captain. If this premise is correct under EU law, and BALPA is in EZ, how has thus been allowed to happen?
But first, is the concept of equal T's & C's for all employees in the same job correct as I understand it.
No doubt there will be the usual replies of airlines not respecting labour law and if you want a command you have to bend over etc. etc. However, once you have a command you might have a claim for having signed an less favourable contract under duress.

Please, only factual knowledgable replies and not the usual LoCo bashing. If I am correct in my premise then BALPA have not done themselves proud in EZ and yet they hope to bring hope and salvation to RYR.
And no more BALPA bashing replies, please; only facts.

[Kelly Hopper]

This entire industry is riddled from top to bottom with devious working practices that would never be acceptable in any any other.
Dubious contracts, illegal working hours, lying and cheating employers, unlicenced pilots even!!!! it's everywhere! I've seen it. And somehow the powers to be just turn a blind eye to all of it.
Any other industry where your employer steps out of line and the hammer falls from a great height. Are the respective governments, EU, courts etc. in these guys pockets? I do wonder?

[atse]

And somehow the powers to be just turn a blind eye to all of it. Kelly H it is not my desire to attack you, but I do want to "attack" the underlying premise of your post and the bit I quoted above.

There is just something about pilots which makes them utter innocents when it comes to looking after their interests. It is to be found in post after post on a range of discussion here on PPRUNE. Sometimes it is hidden in pro or anti union posts, or behind those who declare themselves "realists".

What I am referring to? I refer to the notion that there is anyone, other than pilots themselves, available to sort things out. There is NO "powers" off stage able or willing to come in, like the cavalry, to help.

The actual "powers that be" will say - "if there is something wrong that has anything to do with us, put it in writing". If that is not about safety or regulation they will declare it "off limits" and suggest a legal remedy. Only an idividual pilot, or association can then act. If a pilots' association is to act it needs members - and even more, it needs members who are willing to act themselves or to support legal or other action.

Pilots show a remarkable inability to get this. It is not exclusive to any particular group of pilots or to any country. It just comes with the pilot package: confident, opinionated, innocent to the point of naivete and easily "seen off" when they are not part of an established and well run pilots association.

Everything Ryanair is doing it has repeatedly done before. And we still see people who sound off without even having done the slightest bit of research about the well established realities of the own current employer. So what if some outsiders get it wrong .... if those inside cannot work out the "bleedin obvious" why expect anyone else to do so?

Nobody will help Ryanair pilots until they show some backbone. Thay have not earned such support and do not deserve it. Even if their treatment is deplorable and on occasions outrageous.

[Kelly Hopper]

ATSE

I actually agree with everything you say but that does not excuse the "powers that be," the regulators, of this industry from enforcing the regulations when needed. That means strict adherence to FTL's, licencing, AOC operations and the like.

Additionally the point I was making was that employment law seems to vanish into the clouds whenever it refers to aviation. There are a million rules that are enforced elsewhere on how employers treat their workers both in work and when they are "released." The likes of Ryanair and many others stick two fingers up at these laws and get away with it. Why? Probably because the regulators are living off the back of the operator. Much like the bank regulators which is why they allowed such a blatent abuse of others money!

Yes pilots are the most incoherent bunch but when I am given a rule book I expect myself and others to operate to it, not choose which rules to abide by, which to bend, and which to ignore!

[MaxReheat]

'The likes of Ryanair and many others stick two fingers up at these laws and get away with it. Why?'

Kelly - atse has already given you the answer. The individual is powerless (unless of independent means and can afford a protracted period off work to fight the case) to pursue breaches of law (various) that, as you rightly say, are widespread throughout the industry.

The only answer is collective action through union representation. The best terms and conditions exist in airlines where unionisation has been established over a long period and, most importantly, where the corresponding management know that they HAVE to talk to the union before any changes are made.

Leaving current losses aside (short term in the current squeeze) just look at the T&Cs at the likes of Air France, Lufthansa and BA and then look at the declining T&Cs at esay and O'Leary's mob.

There is this irrational fear amongst pilots that 'oh, if we go on strike the airline and our jobs are doomed'. It is that irrationality that the airline managements rely upon because they know that, unlike themselves, pilots in the main are jolly decent types who live their working lives by 'toeing the line'. Once the bottom line is affected the management will come running to the table.

But the bottom line for the pilots concerned is that they must act as one and that can only be through a union. Those that have the right to union representation through national law and do not exercise that right are doing themselves and colleagues elsewhere who are not afforded that protection a great disservice.

[ballyboley]

Where did this information actually come from before we all get too excited?

[Kelly Hopper]

MaxReHeat.

I had already acknowledged Atse's comments but there are other reasons too.

I'll spell it out for you: I could name an operator who I know abuses every rule in the book and bribes their ops inspector to turn a blind eye!

So FTL's never get scrutinised nor training records and many pilots for said operator are not legal. I am sure there are many others.

If the rules were enforced it would be a start and pressure would not be applied to crews to bend rules.

I agree though that for airlines the only way to protect T's & C's has to be through union representation.

[45989]

InkJet
Very Incisive post.
Still there are many willing Lemmings out there

[John_Mc]

I'll spell it out for you: I could name an operator who I know abuses every rule in the book and bribes their ops inspector to turn a blind eye!

So FTL's never get scrutinised nor training records and many pilots for said operator are not legal. I am sure there are many others.
And you wouldn't think it wise to report this to the authorities no? Fair play to you :D

[PAPI-74]

YouTube - NEW UNITED AIRLINES SAFETY DEMONSTRATION! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJnE8Ck0n5s&feature=related)

Say no more !!!!! :}:ok:

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

The best terms and conditions exist in airlines where unionisation has been established over a long period
That'd be the same airlines currently laying off pilots by the truckload, would it? What's that you say? No layoffs at Ryanair? Ryanair is actually hiring pilots, and without the benefit of union recognition? Surely not, Max Rear-Eat!
just look at the T&Cs at the likes of Air France, Lufthansa and BA
Not a valid comparison, I'm afraid, Max. The first is a vast monopoly wrapped in the condom of the Fifth Republic, the middle an example of what happens when the Luftwaffe goes commercial, and the third a failing legacy carrier constrained by insufficient runways at its home airport and feral, yes FERAL, unions. Oh, and it takes a brave man to mention BA, Max Rear-Eat, without mentioning their eye-watering pension deficit, but clearly that doesn't feature in your commercial calculus, like so much else. So long as Teez and Ceez are to your liking, with no view beyond the horizon of that.
and do not exercise that right are doing themselves and colleagues elsewhere who are not afforded that protection a great disservice.
Bollocks.

[Barden]

The sad thing is, there are individuals out there who'll be taken in by the demented rantings of Leo Hairy Camel and cohorts. It's apparent they are worried, hence the concerted campaign to rubbish BALPA and any airline which recognises it.

[mikehammer]

Ah Leo, Leo Leo,

Calm down man, you'll give yourself indigestion. Do you have ANY opinions which are balanced and not batting from one extreme or the other? When deciding on a point of view have you ever thought about listening to another's opinion even though it may differ from your own and perhaps widening your field of view?

If, as you claim, your T's and C's are so wonderful, what would you have to fear whatsoever from unionism? Why would the best paid pilots in the world want to complain, unless, as is claimed here, and elsewhere (all over this website in fact) they have a point and the truth is that they are far from the best paid, as well as apparently treated with disdain by you and Ryanair management in general? There are so many Ryanair crew who, when you ask them (I have asked a good many) like a lot of things about their jobs ('tis a balanced opinion, mine) but the common thread throughout their replies is that they are able to just ignore the way management treat them, hate them almost.

Perhaps if you accept that some of the people telling you the same thing over and over might actually have a point, and you accept or even address that point, you might find life a little less confrontational.

Just a suggestion for you to digest and enjoy; bollocks man I really mean confront.

[Cadet Pilot UK]

I gave up trying to reason with LEO (management) in a different thread some time ago. He is entirely self opinionated and has no thought whatsoever for those of us who may be worse off than him. Hopefully his little world will fall apart one day and leave him in an undesirable situation.

[Desk-pilot]

From what I can see on other threads Leo, your outfit are laying off F/O's who are on the point of reaching the higher level of sector pay and then hiring in new ones at lower cost, so any recruitment you are conducting is spurious and immoral.

Perhaps your chicken **** outfit should start making money by flying passengers around rather than exploiting wannabe pilots year in out and abusing those you already have operating your aircraft.

So far as I can tell your business model seems bent, you're putting planes on the ground by the dozen, while dozens more are turning up from Boeing in the next 12 months, you're sacking call centre staff and now slashing the terms and conditions of your employees yet again - how long till you can't pay the fuel bills????

Desk-pilot

[beanojet]

Desk-jet,

its not so much that Leo's business model is bent - it worked very well in boom times, but it is no longer appropriate to the current situation. Funnily enough it is not the fuel bill that will undo Leo but the regulator - France, Italy et al....

[45989]

What may well be his undoing is the growing outcry/unease that is starting to appear now in the US over lowtime/pay to fly pilots.
CNN did a long spot on this today 28/5/09
Sorry don't know how to link it but i'm sure the more computer literate will be able to find it

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

your outfit are laying off F/O's who are on the point of reaching the higher level of sector pay and then hiring in new ones at lower cost
Absolute pish. I've heard we take 'em out behind the hangar, shoot 'em, pull their pants down, then steal their mothers prize-winning Azaleas, but that's not true either.
Perhaps your chicken **** outfit should start making money by flying passengers
Normally I wouldn't bother with one so clearly deluded, Desk Pilot, but if you want to compare chicken **** outfits, you'd do well do compare your chicken **** (http://www.flybe.com/pdf/Annual_Report_Complete_(Lo-Res_Final).pdf) with our chicken **** (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=09&month=may&story=pax-en-060509). I think you'll find one a great deal more productive than the other. 59.1 million passengers in the 12 months ending April 2009. Chicken ****, you say?

For one who has been flying for less than two years, having failed to get into British Airways and found yourself in SAM for a regional airline, your bitterness would seem to reflect rejection fatigue. Couldn't be that you applied to Ryanair and found yourself not good enough for us either, could it? There's no shame in flying a light aircraft, Desk Pilot. Relax and enjoy it, you'll live longer.

[PACIFIC BARON]

CNN Link

Florida’s ‘pilot factory’ – amFIX - CNN.com Blogs (http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/28/floridas-pilot-factory/)

P B

[Jetgate]

There's no shame in flying a light aircraft, Desk Pilot.

???????..... Leo I guess you better go check these people out -

www.mattersofsize.com

[Desk-pilot]

Leo,

You may think a 29 tonne Dash is a light aircraft but the CAA don't. Regarding comparisons I think you'll find my outfit are doing quite nicely, still making a profit and have a largely happy and contented (union represented) workforce who enjoy their flying and perhaps most importantly feel by and large that the company does care about them and respect them.

Sure, there are gripes, and we'd all like to earn more, but they paid my type training, annual recurrency training, uniform, interview, hire cars, medicals and give me an employment contract with holiday pay, sick pay etc etc.

All in all I feel valued and certainly well trained. It's the culture of Ryanair that many people on here don't like as much as anything and no, I never applied and nor would I. You have nice aeroplanes for sure and an interesting mix of routes however I would never leave an employer who values me to join one who would treat me like something on the bottom of their shoe. I know amongst my peers I'm not alone either and that's probably why you are having to recruit so many Eastern Europeans rather than attracting experienced hires from regional carriers.

Incidentally I'm flattered you took the time and trouble to review my career history so comprehensively and no I didn't get into BA first time around but then I'm hardly alone in that.

By the way can you confirm or deny the rumour that you are indeed the Count of Mullingar himself??!!

Desk-pilot

[bia botal]

By the way can you confirm or deny the rumour that you are indeed the Count of Mullingar himself??!!

bloody hell desk-pilot you are new to this lolololol:ugh::ugh:

[shaun ryder]

Not exactly light, but definitely slow! :ok:

[Desk-pilot]

Shaun,

Slow my goodness :) - I'll have you know I recall with a following wind I once managed a groundspeed of 454Kts out of the bugger at an indicated 240kts IAS - I reckon that's a groundspeed in excess of 500mph!

I will race you next time!

The tortoise!!

[strawberriesfield]

Given the ability of anything with props to slow down in short order, versus the -800's total inability to shed speed and simultaneously descend I suggest you stage the race from 30 out to the threshold whilst respecting 250 below 10k, I'd put my money on the "slow" one :ok:

[finncapt]

Used to have fun in the budgie.

We always beat the stick insect from 30 miles out into ABZ on the last flight of the day.

[Mister Geezer]

Leo ...

Before grabbing your pistol and firing, perhaps it might be prudent to look before you actually pull the trigger.

Stating that Lufthansa is 'an example of what happens when the Luftwaffe goes commercial' is nothing short of childish and of course wildly inaccurate. That could easily offend anyone who is employed by Lufthansa.

I think you'll find one a great deal more productive than the other. 59.1 million passengers in the 12 months ending April 2009. Chicken ****, you say?

Now for comparing the financial data from one of your comparators to your own and waving your willy and claiming we carried more passengers is like comparing apples and oranges. Flybe have less aircraft and their aircraft have a smaller capacity as well. Therefore you could have saved your time and effort in getting the latest Flybe figures, since one does not need to understand rocket science to claim that Ryanair carried more passengers! Furthermore, to make a claim that a company is 'more productive' based simply on passenger numbers (which you did! :ok:) when the two airlines are totally different, is showing a limited level of business awareness.

Next time.... think before you speak!