A380 certified ceiling?

[AV8R-77]

As the title says, what would be the maximum flight level for an A380?
Many thanks!
AV8R

[1mag1n3]

A quick glance on wiki shows it as 13,115 m (43,030 ft).

[alemaobaiano]

The maximum weight on the 744 for FL420 is 520,000lbs (238,000Kgs) and optimum is 470,000lbs (213,000kgs)

Funny how wikipedia just adds 30' to the max cruise alt for the A380.

It's 43,000'

TCDS A58NM Rev 4 Airbus (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/55DEE2AC296BEAA58625754C0070D4DB?OpenDocument)

Leo

[Cacophonix]

As a humble light twin pilot I would like to ask the pros out there who fly aircraft certified to fly above FL400, how often they are likely to operate above this level (if anyone flies the A380 then so much the better)? Do airline SOPS generally permit flying close to or at the operational ceilings of commercial jets?

I appreciate that there are efficiencies to be gained by flying higher but am informed by a corporate jet pilot of my acquaintance that there are pitfalls as well. He spoke of critical Mach numbers, higher likelihood of flameouts and the need for additional vigilance etc. How relevant is all this to the A380, 747 etc?

[pottwiddler]

I think it's 43,000 ft then.

[L'aviateur]

African or European? Laden or Unladen?

[pottwiddler]

Erm ...I don't know....:confused:

[divinehover]

This is officially the worst thread I have ever had the misfortune of reading. The original question was rather simple. I can't believe the word wikipedia even appeared. No one looks for aircraft limitaions on wikipedia. You look in the relevent manual. If you don't have access to these manuals don't answer the question.

[Cacophonix]

As a humble light twin pilot I would like to ask the pros out there who fly aircraft certified to fly above FL400, how often they are likely to operate above this level (if anyone flies the A380 then so much the better)? Do airline SOPS generally permit flying close to or at the operational ceilings of commercial jets?

I appreciate that there are efficiencies to be gained by flying higher but am informed by a corporate jet pilot of my acquaintance that there are pitfalls as well. He spoke of critical Mach numbers, higher likelihood of flameouts and the need for additional vigilance etc. How relevant is all this to the A380, 747 etc?


Polite request - Any hope of an answer to these questions. or am I on the wrong track, thread, forum? :(

Postscript - A bit of self investigation and I think I am beginning to answer my own questions. It seems that flight at operational ceilings might not be advisable if this case is anything to go by.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/AAR0701.pdf

[Lemurian]

Do airline SOPS generally permit flying close to or at the operational ceilings of commercial jets?

Forget the hype on FL 400 and above.
Think about ceiling (theoretical), Max fligh altitude (don't go there) and optimumflight level.
Cieiling is, very broadly defined as the max altitude an airplane is capable of, and still complies with regulation requirements in terms of handling and most of all performance after depressurization.(That's an awfully broad a statement, believe me !)
Max flight altitude is, for a given weight, the fabled "coffin corner", with a margin for wing loading, generally 1.3 g, which means that your airplane won't stall during a ~40° bank, or encounter some heavy turbulence. At that altitude, the aircraft has been certified to fly safely without any problems ( engines are certicated, too).
Please remember that the altitude performance of an aircraft improves with lightening weights. For instance the initial FL of a loaded 744 is about 300 at the beginning of the flight and 390 eleven hours later. In seven years with the 744, I've never been able to climb higher than FL 410.
There is nothing in the FCOM or the SOPs to prevent you from flying at that altitude during the course of a trip, although you'd be away from the most economical cruising altitude, which would be :
The Optimum flight level.
Try and find the Airbus text on High altitude flying (The "getting to grips with Aircraft performance" and ..."fuel economy"...and "...cost index" will do you fine.)Let me know if you can't find them.

Regards

[Will Fraser]

Namib, the two pilots on that reposition flight were trying to enter the "41" club.
ATC remarked, in the transcript, "Never seen one at 41k before". They ran out of airspeed, stalled, flamed out, couldn't relight, couldn't relight, etc. etc. It was not the a/c but the crew.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

I appreciate that there are efficiencies to be gained by flying higher but am informed by a corporate jet pilot of my acquaintance that there are pitfalls as well. He spoke of critical Mach numbers, higher likelihood of flameouts and the need for additional vigilance etc. How relevant is all this to the A380, 747 etc?

Polite request - Any hope of an answer to these questions. or am I on the wrong track, thread, forum? :(

Postscript - A bit of self investigation and I think I am beginning to answer my own questions. It seems that flight at operational ceilings might not be advisable if this case is anything to go by.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/AAR0701.pdf

Well, not a A380/747 specific answer (which is partly why I refrained earlier) but in general, there is no especially hazardous element of flight within the aircraft's certified envelope, provided you are also within its performance envelope (operational capability) and fly the aircraft 'by the book'.

The "max certified altitude" is the highest altitude at which the aircraft can be safely flown in complience with the various regs; it's not necessarily the altitude which is the performance limit for the aircraft - on some days that will be above the certified altitude - in which case there should be no reason not to go there, if the balance of the flight plan leads that way - on other days the performance ceiling will be below max certified, and you have no business trying to get there.

The case you list was ABOVE the operatioonal ceiling, certainly the way they got to FL410 - zoom climb/energy management is not the way to go. They ended up behind the drag curve and couldn't hold altitude and speed. Had they 'nursed' the aircraft up there (on speed schedule etc) maybe they could have got to FL410 with enough speed to hold level flight. Still wouldnt have been a great choice, though.

That case also points to another reason not to play games near the max ceiling - you have very little in the way of excess power to get out of trouble with - at lower altitudes (provided you aren't ridiculously low!) you'll generally have lots of SEP in reserve (unless you've lost an engine of course). At or close to max alt you may already be at or close to max power, leaving no margin there. (Which is why the "standard" action to recover from stall warning - max power and just accelerate out of trouble - works pretty much ok at lower altitudes but is useless up high)

[Cacophonix]

Thanks guys.:ok:

I'll try and absorb the lesson.

[AV8R-77]

Thanks for the replies.
I was asking since last week I came across an a380 on a test flight at FL430 and thought it was rather high, but there you go, it is the ceiling.

AV8R

[mrdeux]

Max altitude (from the A380 FCOM) is 43,100 feet. The 747-400 is 45,100 feet.

[barit1]

But of course if the altimeter reads 43000, the top of the fuselage is ~20 feet higher, and the fin 30-40 feet above that. Interestingly the engines are at about 42980 and thus have a tad better performance. :}

[Tmbstory]

Will Fraser:

In my time it was always the "51" club that we looked for, well above the "41" club.

Tmb

[Heliarctic]

Tmbstory=was it GV´s?
regards

[betpump5]

In seven years with the 744, I've never been able to climb higher than FL 410

Same here with 4 years experience. However it is not unusual to always be at FL410 at the end of a flight with a light load.

If my memory serves me correctly, my beloved 742F had a ceiling of FL450. The sporadic empty shuttle flights I flew from Hong Kong to Manila was flown at FL430.

Lemurian,

is there hype pertaining flying above FL400? I always thought it was always who flies the biggest plane :}

[aviate1138]

In the 80's I used to regularly commute between Munich and Heathrow, using either BA or LH. On one late Sunday flight to Munich in a very sparsely filled 727, our chirpy Lufthansa Captain announced to the few SLF's on board [about mid flight] "This is your Lufthansa Space ship Captain Hansie Xxxxxx informing you that we are at our cruising altitude, which is Flight Level 42 - pause - and a bit....[laughter from the flight deck]... and we will shortly be descending and arriving [with luck] ahead of schedule.........

I wasn't dreaming/sloshed/drugged and with a Bombers Moon we were for sure some considerable way off terra firma.

Presumably the altitude achieved was visible to ATC so maybe it was just a happy Captain looking forward to his Spanferkel mit Spargel and a huge stein of Spaten Bock Spring Beer....
teasing his SLFs.

[FullWings]

But of course if the altimeter reads 43000, the top of the fuselage is ~20 feet higher, and the fin 30-40 feet above that. Interestingly the engines are at about 42980 and thus have a tad better performance.
That's why you get problems with large bank angles at high altitude - the engines on one side go up, lose performance and start buffeting...:p

[turnandburn]

I frequently fly a 1.30 hour sector in a 747-400. On occasion we go to FL430 but this is the flight planning system choosing the most economical profile. Its worth noting as well that you are flying on 1013mb, so in the tropics a look at GPS altitude, interesting if you have it as you my be several hundred feet higher, than indicated on the altimeter.

[betpump5]

I frequently fly a 1.30 hour sector in a 747-400. On occasion we go to FL430

The Honkong-Manila flight was around 1.50. I think usually the last 2 hours of a 74X flight is flown near to the ceiling - obviously dependant on load.

When I was on the 742F, one of the Captains did mention that he had requested FL450 near the end of one of his flights just so he could see what it was like.

No one believes him :ok:

[Flugmaschine]

...disregard... Sorry.

[2engop]

Anyone a member of the '600' club? Must admit I wasn't at the controls, but hell of a view!:D

[Tmbstory]

Heliartic:

It was in the Cessna Citation 3 (Cessna 650).

Regards

Tmb

[CaptainSandL]

Cue TR1 / SR71 story ..... anyone?

[Heliarctic]

Tmbstory=thanks
Wow, didn´t think they could go that high, impressive.:ok:

AV8R-77:
Sorry for hijacking your thread
Got a bit curious there
Regards

[CV880]

Many years back my then employer ferried a 742 across the Pacific to Boeing Wichita for conversion to a freighter. The cabin was completely gutted before the ferry flight so the aircraft was very light and toward the end of the flight the crew coaxed it up to 45,100 FT and took a photo of the altimeter which was printed in the company flight ops magazine. I believe they reported it was twitchy and not that pleasant.