RAF Smugglers!

[effects]

From the currant bun
RAF smugglers use hero coffin flights to bring cigarettes into UK | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/2442463/RAF-smugglers-use-hero-coffin-flights-to-bring-cigarettes-into-UK.html)

[BEagle]

They are believed to be movements staff, ranging from junior private equivalents to a warrant officer.

Here we go again.......

[Lord Loverocket]

I am a mover and before the venom hits, I would like to say most of the trade will hangs head in shame at this.

I hope all involved go down for a very long time and lose all the benefits this scam has brought them.

[cornish-stormrider]

Sneaking back a bit of booze for personal use from on det is one thing. This is something else...........
And to use the cover of the dead..........! That beggars belief.

[Hueymeister]

Well Done Tom Newton Dunn...the force's favourite hack...nicely reported..

[NURSE]

just shows the level of some in the armed forces.

But what do we expect the armed forces reflects the country it recruits from and maybe were getting the armed forces we deserve.

[Mr Blake]

Was this not the plot line for the flick "American Gangsters"? Did they get the idea from here? Shameful if it's true.

[Arty Fufkin]

Even these idiots wouldn't have the gall or intelligence to specifically target repatriations. They have commited an offence, and they will get punished. But be wary of letting the tabloids turn this into something it is not.

[StopStart]

Looks like the Pprune Outrage Bus is being wheeled out for a grand tour. :rolleyes:
As the poster above says, some movers were smuggling fags in boxes of PEs. These boxes may or may not have been on the same aircraft as coffins. The fags weren't in coffins :hmm:

[BEagle]

All doors closed, you're in the process of starting the engines at an international airport (with a resident RAF handling team) and you have a slot time to make. Then the cargo door light illuminates for a few seconds, before extinguishing again.

What would you do?

(Old Ground Cat question!).

[Pontius Navigator]

This is about 2-4 weeks ago. Using ISO I am told so not necessarily in PE boxes but lookalikes.

The BEagle door issue is a bit too amateurish.

[racedo]

Sneaking back a bit of booze for personal use from on det is one thing.

Everybody expects and knows that happens and most in command while not turning a blind eye to it will allow personnel some leeway within reason.

However when morons decide they wish to engage in private enterprise like the alledged incidents then you have no option but to tackle head on.

When people go down the route alledged, they then start to make decisions which are primarily in their own interests, rather than in the interests of the service as a whole. Also they are more likely to take risks because of the greater pay back.

The question will be raised that how can people believe it was only cigarettes and not Afghanistan's other famous export.

[BEagle]

A fair while ago a Herc nearly tipped on its arse when loading was complete. The reason? Some brave little soldier had filled spaces in some pongo machinery with contraband, then bodge taped over them......

Nevertheless, PN, I am told that it happened......

[747guru]

Surely if someone is serious about setting up a serious smuggling operation, C-130 "dry bays" on the upper wing would be better than coffins/PE boxes???

Hope UK C & E isnt reading this;)

[VinRouge]

It was my understanding these Feckers got pinched for this a long time ago, have their charges only just been presided on?

Or is this a different group?

Truly, truly disgraceful. I have a lot of lattitude with movers, all in all a good group of lads and lasses that work very hard and get slated by aircrew. I think most movers agree though that using PE's boxes to smuggle in tabs is quite frankly, an offence which deserves a significant custodial sentence.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

It is funny that every other story the Sun prints on this board is met with 'utter buffoonery' calls. Yet every word is believed regarding this story :rolleyes:


Let the ivory tower brigade begin.

[minigundiplomat]

If this is true, those responsible deserve to be hung, drawn and quartered in a public arena.
But, firstly we need to let the disciplinary system do its duty, an secondly, two people out of a trade of several hundred is not justification for villifying an entire trade, some of whom work very hard.

MGD

[Akrotiri bad boy]

I agree with racedo: a bit here, a bit there never hurt anybody. People get caught when they get greedy. First time maybe they managed a to get a carton of 200 in. Once they've finessed that the next stop is a master carton of 10,000. After confirming an outlet for more goods it's a 40' container with 8,000,000 in.

These guys got greedy and no doubt if they weren't stopped the bad guys they were selling to would have upped the game and started asking for something a little more valuable and a little less bulky. We've all seen the film Layer Cake, once you're in the only way out is in a box.

After these idiots have been sent down the Proceeds Of Crime Act should kick in and empty their bank accounts, drag their kids out of fee paying schools, strip the fancy clothes off their wives backs and repo their cars.

GREEDY AMATEURS

[Airborne Aircrew]

GREEDY AMATEURS

Ah. So. If they had been greedy professionals it would have been ok then?

[GPMG]

No, they would be elected MP's.

[NURSE]

Nah they'd be called Members of Parliment ;)

[LynehamMuppet]

What a load of bollocks. I'm a Lyneham mover myself and know the two characters involved fairly well. Granted they took the piss abit with the quantities of contraband they brought back but this is the first i've heard of them using repat flights. Sounds like the Sun making up complete bollocks up as usual.

[BEagle]

I'm a Lyneham mover myself and know the two characters involved fairly well. Granted they took the piss abit with the quantities of contraband they brought back but this is the first i've heard of them using repat flights.

And what did you do about the quantities of contraband your colleagues were involved with?

I guess Lyneham crews will now have to look forward to being rummaged whenever they fly into the UK?

[LynehamMuppet]

If they are not doing anything illegal then they need not worry about a rummage.

[mams]

Well lets look at this, its been going on for years since Customs decided not to meet aircraft going into Brize or Lyneham!!! (or very few). It does not take much of a brain to figure out you may get away with stuff like this. They should look at what goes on out in afgan or iraq on the hercs flying round there. They say that only 8 may be involved hmmm more like 40 to make something like this work

[sisemen]

I seem to remember that many years ago a Vulcan was undergoing a deep strip examination and hordes of ciggies were discovered hidden in the wing that the miscreant presumably hadn't been able to recover when the aircraft landed back at base some considerable time previously.

There was some talk that it might just have been aircrew rather than ground crew.

Lesson: Everybody's at it given sufficient reward, temptation and opportunity.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Greedy and stupid

There's a much better mark up on Viagra


What would be interesting would be if they are Duty Free's or 'Counterfeit Afghan Market' (even cheaper). I don't think there's a limit on the latter.

[Evanelpus]

If true, this sickens me.

This couldn't be more tasteless if the perps had pissed on the graves of our fallen heros, shame on them.

I know a family who lost a loved one doing their duty recently and I cannot imagine what their reaction to this story would be.

Shame on them again!

[Wrathmonk]

The bit that amuses me about some of the responses on here are that they are made by the very people who probably "bent the rules" bringing back goodies from outside the EU - it wasn't that long ago that the limit was £100 of other goodies be it Webers, steaks, lawn mowers, car exhausts, sunglasses, jeans, CDs etc etc etc regardless of whether they from a BX or not. And if I remember correctly the operating crew allowance was zero!

This incident has been made to sound worse because it is ciggies as well as a bit (by the sounds of it) of artistic licence by the Sun. Would the Sun have been interested if it had been routine stuff (i.e not ciggies / alcohol) bought back following an exercise in the States. I doubt it.

A couple of chancers pushed their luck, got caught, and if found guilty will get due punishment. Where it will hurt is if HMRC now do a full Red/Green channel on all returning flights.

[Brain Potter]

There seems to be a few posters on here who seem to condone smuggling, as long as it is in small quantities. I'm not going to jump on the outrage express but just for the record if you bring in any quantity over the HMRC limit, or sell-on your duty-free, then you have broken the law - it's your choice.

It is real temptation for the badly-paid boys and girls who work as cabin crew for airlines to succumb to the special-offer on 400 cigarettes in order to make a few extra quid by selling them on to friends. Where I work now the company will instantly dismiss any employee caught over their limit, regardless of any HMRC involvement. No formal warning, no lesser administrative or disciplinary action - simply instant dismissal. In that climate you know the risk and you make your own choice. Sensible people will not even take a risk on: "Not taking cigs? Will you take these for me?".

If this story is true, then I'm sure that there will be prosecutions as HMRC will regard an organized racket by professionals with access to air-freight as a serious offence. However, it might be worth reflecting that this kind of thing could well have roots in a collective view that 'small amounts are ok, aren't they?'

[BEagle]

Speak for yourself, wrathmonk - I was always scrupulously honest with HMRC and they never, ever shafted me. In fact they would often charge far less than perhaps they should have.

One Christmas I 'self declared' a fair amount of stuff from the USA via the 'blank cheque and honesty box' system at Brize - they never charged me a penny.

mams, if what you say is true (and I hope it isn't), then perhaps the SIB and HMRC will be on the case pretty schnell. As indeed they should.

On the way from Deci back to Wattisham, I once witnessed a VC10 navigator trying to have a conversation with a casualty on a stretcher after we'd bent into Wildenrath for an aeromed case - bloke was plumbed into a drip and surrounded by anxious-looking Paraffins.....

"Are you taking any duty free home, mate?", was the navigator's opening comment......:hmm: Chief Paraffin was most assuredly NOT happy!

[Mr C Hinecap]

Evanelpus - you have jumped aboard the outrage bus exactly as I expected the average Sun reader would.

The fact they were smuggling is the story - the possible crime. Not that they may have used flights (amongst others) that were being used for repatriation. Tell me you don't think we have the capacity to fly the deceased back on their own airframe - please.

[FFP]

Hang on......smuggling fags into the UK from Afg ?!?!?!

I can think of other stuff in Afg that would have made far more money....

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Much more difficult to get from the NAAFI though, FFP

[Laarbruch72]

"What would be interesting would be if they are Duty Free's or 'Counterfeit Afghan Market' (even cheaper). I don't think there's a limit on the latter."

There is. Theatre orders state that the limit is 200 cigarettes per serviceman, per journey, no matter where or how purchased.
If you wanted to go by what (as a civilian) you're allowed, UK customs wise, then yes there's no limit (other than that it has to be for personal consumption) but you have to provide proof of purchase and proof that they are tax paid. Your chogie cleaner at BAS won't be able to provide you with either. So either way the bottom line is, it's an allowance of 200.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

I think there's reasonable chance that these were freight!

[ShyTorque]

The reason? Some brave little soldier had filled spaces in some pongo machinery with contraband, then bodge taped over them......


These lead smugglers are awful, aren't they?

[Herc-u-lease]

while we're at it, shall we try and justify insurance fraud too? to those who think that any kind of "it's over the allowance but that's ok" - it is tax evasion! "i claimed on my insurance, because every does" is a similarly asinine argument.

The Sun has used the typical BNP style journalism to work the public opinion up into a frenzy and it seems to have worked; even on this forum. shall we now condemn all movers and hang them? f**k it, let's go get the gibbet; why let the facts get in the way of a good public beheading? Or shall we wait and see the actual facts and let the disciplinary process work its course; like several others suggest?

People may think i am standing on some kind of moral high ground, but i, like many, own a piece of paper signed by the Queen (i know it's a stamp/copy) that quite clearly says "honesty" in amongst the text.

Rant over......and breathe:)

[Laarbruch72]

I think there's reasonable chance that these were freight!

Doesn't matter, cigarettes are forbidden to be moved in freight, mail, or any kind of unaccompanied baggage. It has to be carried by the passenger. A whole different raft of customs regulations apply to taxable items moved as freight, in short you have to be a licenced distributor.

We used to scan all MFO boxes, freight etc at BAS... we'd let nothing through unaccompanied (and many would try mailing 1000 fags home at a time in the post, a big no-no) but we would turn a blind eye to the passengers carrying the odd extra carton or two at check in.
Of course once we'd scanned MFO's etc, we sealed them, and they went into the Movers secure yard for onward shipping. After that, it's down to the movers to keep them secure, and HM Customs to check the seals in the UK.

UK Customs have allowed us some leeway for many years now at major airheads and the seals never got checked, maybe that'll change in light of this.

[BEagle]

Actually, for once on PPRuNe, this hasn't degenerated into a 'mover bashing' thread.

It is clear that the vast majority of decent Air Movs personnel are as equally appalled as everyone else; perhaps they are best placed to root out the miscreants?

ShyTorque, learn about weight and balance and you'll find that it doesn't take much to exceed CG limits if loaded on the ramp.....

[Rigger1]

You make the movers sound like Nuns. I never came across one that couldn't be bribed to let something through.

I won't go into details but I did fairly well over the years, but I never took the piss, allways stuff for me and close mates never anything to sell on for profit etc.

[S78]

I've heard this story from 2 different (not press) sources.

We're talking about commercial quantitites into Lyneham and Brize. What concerns me is what the Afghans will do with all the hard currency going the other way - I wouldn't be surprised if the cash makes its way to a few of the anti-west factions.....




S78

[hellomoto]

Rigger 1, I'm a mover. You've obviously never tried to bribe me, or you wouldn't have posted the drivel above. It really is quite ridiculous, suggesting every member of my Trade Group is on the make.

[WE992]

Sadly this is nothing new. Having been at Rompers Green for the last 22 years I know that there have been individuals from all parts of the trucking empire inolved in scams like this. The difference is that this time they got caught and rightly so. Perhaps it will be a lesson to all. The sad thing is that a lot of people have worked hard and their efforts have now been overshadowed by the stupidity of a small minority.

[LynehamMuppet]

Quote:
A bit? New cars, mortgages paid off, cash found in one of the houses? Sounds like you are trying to pretend this is only about 400 fags. Get real they are deep in the poo and deserve everything they get.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Of course they deserve what they get. The thing that annoyed me over all this was the sun jumping up and down spouting bollocks.

[Fareastdriver]

If you wanted to go by what (as a civilian) you're allowed, UK customs wise, then yes there's no limit (other than that it has to be for personal consumption) but you have to provide proof of purchase and proof that they are tax paid. Your chogie cleaner at BAS won't be able to provide you with either. So either way the bottom line is, it's an allowance of 200.

No limit ONLY from the EU and EU taxes paid. Importing from outside the EU the limit is 200 regardless of the country and regardless of whether any national or local tax has been paid.

[Laarbruch72]

"Air Movs personnel are as equally appalled as everyone else; perhaps they are best placed to root out the miscreants"
Erm, no. I'd say RAFP SIB are best placed to root out the miscreants. It's their job. Air Movs Personnel are best employed on air movements. Not on investigating crime.

[ZH875]

Air Movs Personnel are best employed on air movements.


Even that is highly debatable.


Reduce to the ranks, dismiss in disgrace, 10 years no remission then shot.

[Laarbruch72]

Customs had these people under surveillance for months.

Did they? Show your source please. Otherwise it's just waffle.
Downsizer, do yourself a favour, stick to something you know something about.
RAFP SIB doing speed checks? That'll be why they're level 3 qualified investigators.... Station lads do speed checks. Level 3 investigators cover serious crime. Do keep up, idiot, and refrain from commenting on things where you have no professional knowledge.

[airfarce1]

The tightest procedures and heaviest security will never defeat human nature. Some people will always be tempted to break the law for personnal gain, whatever the risk.

That said I find the airside security at military airports lamentable, especially when compared to civil airports. Maybe this will be reviewed now.

downziser - Customs do not have the manpower to do what you suggest. They cant be everywhere all the time.

I think it is a sad day for the movements trade, especially when you consider the actions of a minority have cast a shadow over the majority. The guys responsible should get whatever can be thrown at them civil and service.

I also dont think the trade has a bad reputation, the majority of posts here back that up. A slagging fest is not what is needed right now.

[ZH875]

they're level 3 qualified.


And when they have finished 'Janet and John Book 4' they will be Level 4 qualified.


Joking aside, the RAF SIB are highly respected by .................





......Themselves:{

[SVK]

If they are proven guilty, regardless of whether or not they abused repat flights, then...bast*rds.

I simply cannot fathom why someone would wish to risk their jobs and reputation for an extra 200 B+H. Meanwhile they're conduct will have an serious effects on the rest of us.

[parabellum]

In the old days up to about 168 days detention was done at MCTC Colchester, anything more Sheppton Mallet until it closed. Will these people be tried under the military or the civilian system?

[Desert Diner]

There seems to be a few posters on here who seem to condone smuggling, as long as it is in small quantities. I'm not going to jump on the outrage express but just for the record if you bring in any quantity over the HMRC limit, or sell-on your duty-free, then you have broken the law - it's your choice.

I am suprised no one has commented on the ridiculously high UK duties on tobacco products that makes these activities so attractive.

[Dan Winterland]

One thing aircrew should take note of is that if HMRC do a rummage and find contraband on a miitary aircraft, it takes a lot of convincing talk to persude them that as the captain you are not involved. I know this from experience!

After my incident, I found I was the subject of more rummages than could be considered usual. On a return form one detachment, I heard a rumour that one passenger was significantly over his limit. I got everyone on the flight to sign a declaration that they understood the limits and that they were persoanlly responsible for all their excess duty.




One thing I have found is that if you do want to bring in something expensive over the limit, a call to HMRC to discuss it is well worth the time. I have bought in an expensive watch and a set of golf clubs in the past. They seem to appreciate your honesty and are very amenable to come to an arrangement which is usually in your favour.

[downsizer]

Laar 72

Downsizer, do yourself a favour, stick to something you know something about.


I do stick to what I know thanks. You'll note that the person you quoted has a subtly different user name....the same person who clones ID's on here and e-goat to stir up trouble...:ok:

[BEagle]

"Air Movs personnel are as equally appalled as everyone else; perhaps they are best placed to root out the miscreants"

What I meant to say was that perhaps they can get their own ship in order before someone else has to.

[Rigger1]

I wasn’t trying to make this into a movers bashing thread, I have defended you lot in the past, but it is rapidly going that way.

Please read my first post on this carefully, I am not saying I think the entire movement’s trade is open to bribery, I am saying that I never came across someone who for a slab etc wouldn’t overlook the 5 Gps’s in my bergan coming back from an American base, or the 3 packs of fags when I’m entitled to 2. And before anyone starts yes it is against the law, and yes if you get caught you can’t moan about it, but that’s the risk you take when breaking the law.

It’s interesting to see everyone moan on here about it when I bet 99% of us have had a beer that has arrived having bypassed customs or a cigarette, or had that new watch on our wrist that we never went out with.

If you are taking the mick and bringing in stupid amounts they deserve everything they get, just let’s not forget most of us have done it, and if you honestly think the majority are innocent you haven’t been in the forces very long.

[Nomorefreetime]

Most of the posters are posting on assumption or gossip which has almost certainly come from the Movers. Now the press have got hold of it, wait and see what the NOTW come out with. This never happened on Thursday its been going on for a while,(it has been kept within the service enviroment) all of a sudden lots of experts in the know are ranting on about how the 'Movers' have messed it up for everyone. Let the relevant people do their investigations and I know we will be surprised at the size of it when its all resolved. Ben Hur does spring to mind.

[dionysius]

This particular case has been ongoing and well "gossiped" about in theatre for months.
Lets just wait on the trial and verdict of the individuals involved, and I for one believe they deserve to be made a good example of and given a severe punishment, but please lets not degenerate this thread into another "Movers bashing" one, as we all know it only takes a few rotten apples to bring us all down.

Lets think before we post, everyone is working extremely hard at present to get the task completed, so lets not slag one particular trade off just because of a few greedy individuals. :ok:

[Echo 5]

Putting the smuggling issue to one side, what is appalling is that the editor of some well known rag has used this AN RAF gang has been using flights bringing home fallen heroes for a smuggling operation. as a headline grabbing stunt.

Anyway, it must be a load of bollox otherwise my old mate SFFP would have been waxing lyrical about Movers. ;)

[November4]

BBC and MOD comment (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/8065182.stm)


RAF arrests in smuggling inquiry

Two members of the RAF have been arrested as part of an investigation into the suspected smuggling of tobacco through a military base in Wiltshire.

The allegations concern cigarettes being smuggled on military flights between Afghanistan and RAF Lyneham.

The RAF confirmed a joint investigation was being carried out by military police and HM Revenue and Customs.

It rejected claims that repatriation flights were involved, in which troops' bodies are flown home.

Sun sensantionalism at it's best - watching too many films - Presedio and American Gangster spring to mind!

[bast0n]

A bit off thread but quite amusing - landing at Manston many years ago, Customs came out to search our Wessex 5. They found nothing exciting but we were half a bottle of Scotch over the limit and they said they were going to confiscate it. Quick thinking - we said what if we all sat around the aircraft and drank it? The lovely customs chaps said fine as long as they could join in! If only I had a photo of us sitting in the sun drinking whisky with the customs..............:) It made the subsequent transit to Culdrose, where Junglies were based then, sooooooooooooo smooth:)

[c130jbloke]

What would have happened if you suffered a main gearbox failure

I would have drunk the other half of the bottle:ok:














PS: In the case of a MGB failure, I personally think that being pi§§ed is the way to go.

[OmegaV6]

Just who is this idiot that keeps changing just a few letters in a name and making inane posts ??? Is there some way of stopping him/them ??




Edit: Yes there is and its under way.

[taxydual]

OmegaV6

I agree.

An obsevation. Whoever it is, his/her prose and sentence structure is very similar to another 'regular' poster who has been strangely quiet of late. AIDU, are you playing games?

[x213a]

I was once nicked upon landing at Lyneham after a Hercy flight back from Dubai. The Smirnoff citron had got the better of me mid-flight. Chops M embarked made a gash allegation that lead to my subsequent arrest on the pan.
In Lyneham guardhouse - kitbag emptied & itemised..."You've got a fair few fags over the limit here I think mate!" was the comment from a lady sgt RAFP (I think). My reply was ..."Yeah but I reckon I'll be ok by morning though!"
Night was spent smoking fags in green ovies in the guardhouse until FOST legal gave the all clear for me to go on leave morning after.

Got 7 days pay fine on return to ship but got a free breakfast at Lyneham though, and a buckshee rail warrant...WINNER!

(Chops M tried to say I had threatened him verbally mid flight - long running feud. he came unstuck with explaining how he heard me wearing 2 sets of earduffs though. Got done for being navigationally unaware while transiting aft for a pi$$ though).

[D-IFF_ident]

Anything the Brits can do, the Spams can do much worse:

Guardsmen charged with smuggling Ecstasy on C-5 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2005/04/mil-050414-afpn02.htm)

"Guardsmen charged with smuggling Ecstasy on C-5

4/14/2005 - SAN ANTONIO (AFPN) -- Two Airmen from the New York Air National Guard's 105th Airlift Wing have been charged with importing narcotics from Germany to the United States after being arrested April 12 on federal narcotics charges, according to a release from the U.S. Attorney's office for the southern district of New York.

Capt. Franklin Rodriguez, a C-5 Galaxy pilot, and Master Sgt. John Fong, a C-5 loadmaster, were found with 28 large bags officials believed to contain about 290,000 pills of Ecstasy in their luggage upon return from an overseas mission April 12.

The Airmen are charged with one count of conspiracy to import Ecstasy into the United States and one count of conspiracy to distribute and possess with intent to distribute Ecstasy.

"Ecstasy is an extremely harmful drug that is abused mainly by teenagers and young adults," said John Gilbride, special agent in charge of the Drug Enforcement Administration's New York field division. Federal law enforcement agents arrested the Airmen shortly after their aircraft landed at Stewart Air National Guard Base.

If convicted, the Airmen face a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison on each count and a $1 million fine on each count. (Information compiled from U.S. Attorney press release)"
:=

[x213a]

They were Americans - that figure counts as personal use:}

[spheroid]

In 1982 whillst in the South Atlantic we waited eagerly for the mail to arrive.....onyl to discover that some thieving person had opened the mail and taken things out. It was soon discovered that the people were RAF Movers at Ascension Island. As far as I am concerned, RAF Movers are theives, liars and crooks.

[Mobile Muppet]

Seperoid you really are chimp.

Perhaps I should now generalise all ground crew and officers as to$$ers just because I've met or worked with a few bad ones?

For such a wild allegation i hope you have proof that they opened HM mail bags!

I say again you are a chimp!

MM

[Blue Bottle]

In 1982 whillst in the South Atlantic we waited eagerly for the mail to arrive.....onyl to discover that some thieving person had opened the mail and taken things out. It was soon discovered that the people were RAF Movers at Ascension Island. As far as I am concerned, RAF Movers are theives, liars and crooks.

You statment goes from Person to People...bit of clarity required there if your throwing stones...Gimp

[WE992]

Spheroid

I challenge you to come and say that I am a thief to my face in person. Do not tar all people with the same brush.

[spheroid]

I didn't tar movers with the same brush....the thieving ratbags who stole the photographs of my children did that....Those rats who stole money, personal momentos and photographs from the mail of fellow servicemen, servicemen who were being killed by the enemy, servicemen who were putting their lives on the line....and all so that those thieves, liars and crooks could steal from their mail..... those are the people you should be targetting.

Now, if you want people to stop thinking that movers are crooks, liars and thieves then you need to tell the movers to stop stealing stuff and to stop smuggling stuff......

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Gents, I was told this first hand by a sqn exec when it happened who was totally shocked by the level at which people would stoop to make money. The box in question was evidently marked as PE's of an individual and placed on the aircraft by persons for collection by the movers on arrival. It was manifested as PE's but the people responsible for removing the PE's were only aware of one box and thus the crew were alerted and the other box taken away for investigation before the box could be collected by others. There are rotten apples in every barrel and I for one hope they receive the full punishment appropriate to their crime, dishonorable discharge and loss of pension etc. Did it sell a few more newspapers, probably not but it did bring the RAF into disrepute and that is another matter that said individuals need to be punished for.

[Mobile Muppet]

spheroid

Ha ha that's some rant. I just hope before you carry on you have proof of what you say.

If so, can we assume the individuals in question were caught, arrested and thrown out of the RAF (i hope so). If not why not, perhaps another sweeping generalisation.

Re-read your post you did tar us all with the same brush.

Chimp

MM

[Mobile Muppet]

On another note, I hope all those involved in the ciggie incident hang their heads in shame and those found guilty are kicked out. No place in my trade (or any) for these individuals.

MM

[mams]

Now what has happened is a real shame and I dont condone this in any way shape or form. I am a Mover and to see all these people tar all mover's with the same brush I think is a little out of order. This may be a big deal with the amount of cigarettes and the lenghth of time this has been going on, they deserve everything that they will get, I know the indaviduals and unfortunatly I would not have thought they would have run the risk just to make a few pounds. Now I also know aircrew that have pulled a fast one with the odd ride on lawnmower or two!!! and everyone has turned a blind eye.
Lets just leave it to the authorities to sort this out and please stop speculating on what has happened or what will happen to the movements trade, because their will be alot of fallout from this and it will come down hard on all movers!!!.
To those involved that think they have got away with it, think on to those that have been caught they know your names and to get a lesser sentance they will sing like a bird!!!!!!
To everyone else lets just see what happens.

[Airborne Aircrew]

To those involved that think they have got away with it, think on to those that have been caught they know your names and to get a lesser sentance they will sing like a bird!!!!!!

Hey, Spheriod... Movers grass up their mates too... Add that to the list... :}

[mams]

Airbourne Aircrew

I think you miss the point!! There are alot of people involved and I hope they all get caught. There is no room in the movements trade for people like this or in any trade for that matter.

[Pontius Navigator]

spheroid, would you care to say exactly when your mail was examined and items removed?

[Nomorefreetime]

Spheroid

I bet you can now sleep at night having got that off your chest. I take it you think that during the Falklands there were only 20 Movers at ASI and nobody else. Considering the real estate at ASI I would guess there wasn't much space for anything, where would mail have been kept? Once it left ASI assuming by air, I take it any bored passenger sat on the Herc would not have been tempted to have a fiddle with the freight, or did your mates have a rummage before delivering it to you. I might have to ask a few of my mates who are still serving and where in ASI at the time.
Anyway enjoy the next 27 years until the next oppertunity arises for you to vent your anger.
:ouch:

[BEagle]

I think we can agree:

Theft is a crime, but theft from service colleagues is an even bigger crime.
It is totally unfair to tar everyone of the same trade with the same brush
HMRC generally play ball with servicemen and give them a lot of leeway


By the way, I recall a colleague bringing back a ride-on lawnmower years ago. He declared it, but 'Farquhar-the-Revenue' (Old Scamptonians may remember him) made him pay car tax on it! This was later revoked when some more senior Customs mate saw sense!

Typical HMRC chat of not so long ago:

"Anything to declare?"
"Yes - a DJ of Metaxa brandy"
"Not exactly Remy Martin, is it sir? A bit like kokinelli, wouldn't you say?"
"Err..OK, I see what you mean. Pretty much"
"OK, then, call it a couple of quid as it's almost Christmas!"

[Old Photo.Fanatic]

Bit dated now but I recollect that when I and my Family left Gib. 1970,at end of tour, One of 6 deep sea crates went adrift!!!.
I spread the valuables around the crates but the one missing had the most interestring and valuable "Manifest".
They all came into Tilbury Docks.
5 crates turned up OK. (out in the sticks of East Suffolk)

Started the Trace routine to find missing Crate, even went myself to the Warehouse at the docks. No sign of said crate.
Left it for a few days then had a brainwave!!
My Father worked for the Admiralty at Bath HQ.
Chatted to him and asked if he had any "Contacts" in the right places.
24 hrs later the crate turned up delivered OK.
On checking a bit deeper I was told it was found in a corner of another
unused Warehouse on the Docks!!!!!!.
So lesson learnt that there are some bad apples in most "Mover" type oganisations, who let themselves and the Honest majority down.
Human nature I guess!!!!!

[Pontius Navigator]

IIRC at Scampton and Waddo we 'lost' our customs officer and found instead we were going to be cleared by the local excise officer instead. Oh sh1t we thought, he won't have any idea what the form is.

No, he didn't, bl00dy brilliant he was. As long as you played by the rules he applied the rules sensibly. Mind you, that may be where it all went t1ts ^p in the House. Rules being applied sensibly then someone starts to bend them, then only fair that someone else can bend a bit more until someone eventually, in the modern vernacular, rips the ^rse out of the system.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I think you miss the point!!

No dear... I think you missed the point... :ugh:

[BEagle]

At the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome, the Flying Club is right next to the Air Cargo hangar.

One fine day, a CAA chap who worked at Oxford Airport dropped by to fly my Instructor Revalidation check on his way home. As he'd come straight from work, he was in NATO blue pully with 4 large gold rings, white shirt, black tie and black trousers.

The same uniform as worn by HMRC.

A few of the Movers went as white as sheets as they thought that a surprise Customs check was about to kick off. I had a chat with their WO who thought it was excellent fun - "Let the bug.gers panic - it'll help me find out who the bad apples are!" was his comment.....:ok:

CAA chum was ex-RAF and also saw the funny side.

[Pontius Navigator]

to get a lesser sentance they will sing like a bird

And the converse is true. If you knew and did not sing you may get an even stiffer sentence even if you benefited not at all. This is true of fraud cases where the guilty party got the lesser sentence than those who knew and did nothing about it.

Think on.

[Airborne Aircrew]

That's what I love about PPRuNe. Long after the other websites, e-goat arrse etc have finished commenting on this story, it lingers on and on and on and eventually turns into a slagging match with the usual main characters having ago at somebody who dares to answer back.

You're pretty quick... only eleven posts too... :ok:

[Warmtoast]

Doing a bit of research regarding Valettas in the Aviation History & Nostalgia Forum I came across this cutting as to how miscreants were dealt with in 1954. Hard Labour in Hong Kong - I can't think of anything worse - well I can, but it's not normally mentioned in polite company!

See the second paragraph.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/25February1954_1114x800.jpg

[Jumping_Jack]

BEagle

Ref customs at that secret Airodrome...I was the Air Cargo Officer, moons ago, at said base. We had about the best relationship with HMRC guys and were permitted to clear freight because of that good relationship. We went out of our way to demonstrate honesty and integrity and NEVER did anything to compromise that trust. I've read so much utter bollox on this thread about Movers being thieves etc....Spheroid is a haemaroid for stating such cock. Why would movers want pictures of HIS family.....:rolleyes:

[Roger Sofarover]

Everybody needs to calm down. Here we have a few individuals that exploited a situation for their own benefit and they will be punished, quite severely and quite rightly. There are not many civvies that would lose their pensions over an offence like this, and if there are senior ranks involved then the financial penalty is going to be very severe. There will always be some around who are going to push it too far, that doesn't mean we should blame everyone.

I once remember as a young techie in Germany a Chief Tech who had a particular liking of cigars (The boxes of King Edwards that cost £5 for 50), on his return to the UK he filled 5 triwall boxes with said cigars. When it was pointed out to him by other SNCOs that he risked losing his pension etc he shrugged his shoulders and said 'nobody would know'. He was willing to risk his financial security in retirement for the short term gain of a few thousand cigars. His choice at that stage, you can't say he wasn't warned. Then there were the enterprising couples who, before the rules were changed, used to order two new Porsche 944 every week. Every weekend they would both drive back to the UK via the ferry and sell the cars to a garage for a 10% mark up in the UK. £8000-£10 000 per month was a shi*load of money in 1980.

Jump off the outrage waggon, its too stressful. Everybody laughed at Sgt Bilko didn't they? The reality though is that these guys are likely to do time. I am sure much worse cases have gone on undetected over the years, and they will happen again wherever someone sees an opportunity to be exploited.

Short term gain, long term loss....Stupid!

[brys beddict]

Hopefully the individuals involved will get discharged and a custodial sentence, apparently serious money was involved as this had been going on for quite a while, its unfortunate that they abused their positions of trust.

[nelly_the_nav]

Foldingwings, see previous 5 pages, as Magistrate of the Parish I am sure you will be outraged by the some of these comments!!! How dare people express their thoughts, using their basic human right to do so! Perhaps some of us know these individuals and know a little more about their involvement, thus we should take care about what we write on a public forum.... it is not fair for us to judge them, the court will decided wheher they are guilty or not. Foldingwings, I'll check back with you in 6 months, I'll be interested to hear what that humble pie tastes like...... Listening out :-)

[Wrathmonk]

Nelly

It won't be humble pie Foldie will be eating. He won't need to. Innocent until proven guilty is the way it is despite the fact that you are hinting that you know otherwise. Of course if any of the accused are found not guilty those that spouted suggestions that they are guilty, even doing so under a nom de plume, could well find themselves in the dock ....

You are of course correct that the courts will decide their fate. But don't be so sure of a guilty plea regardless of what you may know - people were convinced of mistreatment in Iraq (and openly said so before the verdict was announced) and the accused all walked (apart from the one who pleaded guilty).

Slight thread creep but just out of curiosity - if a lorry driver unknowingly 'imports' a migrant throught the chunnel or on the ferry he is held responsible and faces a heavy fine, possibly prison and almost certainly the loss of his job. Are the Captains of the aircraft in which these cigarettes were (allegdedly - I haven't seen the evidence;)) smuggled back in likely to face prosecution as well?

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Wrathmonk - an interesting point, possibly more relevant to the Loadie though.

Innocent until proven guilty? I suppose we better behave ourselves now that the names are out. It'll depend on the evidence, rather than whether they did it or not. Is it illegal to have a suitcase full of cash under your bed? I think not.

Anyway, to keep it tidy:-


BBC News - Four RAF men on smuggling charges (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8402397.stm)


Four RAF men on smuggling charges


Four RAF servicemen have been charged over smuggling cigarettes on military flights into two English RAF bases. HM Revenue & Customs said inquiries suggested huge quantities were smuggled into RAF Lyneham in Wiltshire and RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire.
The men, arrested earlier this year, were charged with conspiracy to evade the duty chargeable on commercial-scale quantities of cigarettes.
They are due to appear at Bristol Magistrates' Court on 5 January.
The men are: Senior Aircraftsman Paul Garbutt, 30, of Billingham, Teesside; Cpl Stuart Helens, 30, of Sunderland; Sgt Stuart Walker, 42, of Basingstoke, Hampshire and Cpl Thomas Warren, 21, of Lyneham, Wiltshire.

[foldingwings]

Nelly the Nav

My objection was and still is to your manner and attitude on your (apparently) first post! You clearly had not read the history since the first post on the subject 7 months ago but jumped in with such phrases as:

Only 4 individuals? I'm slightly suspicious that this runs a lot deeper!

What were these idiots thinking?


If you truly are new to PPRuNe then, take my advice, get some time in before you start fishing here!

My point still stands. They are innocent until proven guilty and no amount of inside knowledge (if indeed you have any) is going to change that.

You remain, in my opinion, a prat for jumping in without engaging brain before opening mouth (or finger to keyboard).

So that others might decide on your value to PPRune here is a link to your first post: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/399628-4-raf-men-charged-smuggling.html


Foldie:ugh:

[Comp Charlie]

From Witney Gazette:

Four more more people have been charged with smuggling cigarettes on military flights through RAF Brize Norton.
Christopher Garbutt, 25, Louisa Garbutt, 35, and Alison McCabe, 44, all from Billingham, in Cleveland, and Lisa Harrison, 35, of Middlesbrough, have been charged with cigarette smuggling and money laundering offences. They will appear at Bristol Crown Court on January 5.
Last week, four military personnel were charged with similar offences at Brize Norton and at RAF Lyneham, in Wiltshire.

[nelly_the_nav]

Hmmmm, so there appear to be others involved (Barrack Room Lawyers please note use of word appear), wouldn't wish to comment on what I think the outcome of any court hearing for these individuals may be; for fear of being issued a writ for libel against the accused, further note to aforementioned lawyers, all views expressed in this forum are my own and based on open source evidence collected and published by HMRC, which currently suggests there are resonable grounds to believe said individuals are indeed involved in criminality....
Seriously though, I re-opened this thread to provoke discussion in relation to what (if proved in a court of law) will do no end of damage to the reputation of the Royal Air Force. I was recently told that there have been yet more arrests, but until I can confirm this is open source information and indeed fact, I shall not post details, I already have a wannabe QC on my back from my initial thread :rolleyes:

[ian16th]

Senior Aircraftsman Paul Garbutt, 30, of Billingham, Teesside; Cpl Stuart Helens, 30, of Sunderland; Sgt Stuart Walker, 42, of Basingstoke, Hampshire and Cpl Thomas Warren, 21, of Lyneham, Wiltshire.Christopher Garbutt, 25, Louisa Garbutt, 35, and Alison McCabe, 44, all from Billingham, in Cleveland, and Lisa Harrison, 35, of Middlesbrough,Am I alone in noticing the 'clustering' of home locations in the NE of England?

Or maybe this Redcar Lad is being sensitive :eek:

[Gainesy]

Slack handfull of Garbutts too.

[jindabyne]

Nelly the Nav (how very apt),

Regardless of your attempts to protect yourself from any accusation of libel you are, in my view sailing very close to the wind at this point; and as foldingwings suggested, so is FJJP. Whoever you may be, PPRuNe does not deserve you.

Other's opinions, such as Flying Lawyer and Proone (neither of whom you will be aware of), are doubtless unable to make comment - for reasons that, if they could, would be obvious to you.

Mods??

[ian16th]

Slack handfull of Garbutts tooIt's beginning to look like 'The Family Firm'.

[vecvechookattack]

BBC News - Motorway thieves steal tea bags in Yorkshire (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/8428824.stm?)

[Fg Off Bloggs]

God No!

near RAF Leeming

Now we are implicated in this one too!!!!!!

Nelly the Nav,

You got any inside knowledge on this one?

Bloggs

[cornish-stormrider]

And The Lord forbid that we discuss what we might have done way back when........

You all know, Cyprus, APC, Booze, Crypto Lacon's etc etc.

And before any SIB come knocking. I'm too drugged up and senile to remember, besides tha above could all be fiction. After all, Boscombe had a UFO crash in 94 didn't it and Rudloe hosts masses of undercover SIB.


Could I sell you all some of my happy pills?? They chase the pink elephants away.


Anyway back to topic. Should any serviceman be found guilty of possible offences then they need old school military detention. lots of. We (and I include myself and every other ex serving here) spent our time being honest and upright and truthful - well ok when we got caught we fessed up like a good un, but the point remains we knew what lines not to cross.

For us to jeapordise (sp, I'm cornish) the fair trial of anyone is not good.
We all need to be careful that when we are on the outrage bus we don't say something some snivelling scumbag lawyer will hang us out to dry with.

CS, running away and hiding to not get sued.

[jindabyne]

Stay off the grog Cornish (well, at least before posting that is)