CoS08 improvement go through

[Rook]

There you go. Will be interesting to see the breakdown of those that took 08 and those that stayed on 99 by rank.

[Humber10]

Funny to see RH has changed his tone over the weekend. That's if he actually wrote his latest update. Sounds like those who havent made a selection will be getting a phone call... WTF, dont cx get the hint....

Like ROOK stated; it will be interesting to see the stats by rank. I'm interested to see how many S.Os actually took Cos08.

[Ex Cathedra]

They would have had a riot on their hands if they hadn't passed the improvements. Good for those that already were on COS08 and those who were close to 55.

I doubt many SOs or 'young' FOs signed up, even though he says that by 2010 most of the pilots will be on 08... :rolleyes:

[sisyphos]

Management doesn't mention the exact figures regarding how many joined Cos 08, that only can mean a lot didn't..

[Frogman1484]

the only way they will have majority of the pilots on cos 08 is if they do 400 commands next year...then they might have 51% majority:ok:

[jed_thrust]

Here are the numbers that are doing the rounds at the moment:

56% of all crew on COS08. Total crew is 2490, so 56% of that is 1395. Assuming that all Captains (937 of them) moved over, that leaves another 458. Of that number, apparently about 300 were already on COS08, so that means that only about 158 (of the available 1252) signed up.

As far as I can tell, that doesn't look like a great victory for CX...

[Blutack]

Now there is an end to freighter commands and as depicted in the latest AoA update "That said, the end to freighter commands is an important achievement." And the fact that the majority ratified this in the AoA vote.

I assume that the freighter commands to commence this year will be canned?

[flatlands744]

If you read GMA's update 1 May 09 it states that all Freighter slots already allocated will be honoured as well as those that were successfully bid for in the 2007/8 NTC:confused:; so although seniority will be used from 1 Jul 09, this will not apply for the next bunch of freighter commands. Good hey?

[Sqwak7700]

Yeah, and don't forget there is two freakin' years worth of freighter commands left!!

That is how many upgrades the company will go through on the freighter before they start upgrading guys who will get paid passenger pay.

So it is another "broken promise" in my book. Two Years? You know how much stuff can happen in two years? By then, the union will be laying down to COS11, which will transfer all the freighters to Air Hong Kong under the revised scope clause of COS08, so the freighters on B scale thing will then become obsolete.

Not a surprise coming from Cathay, but quite a shocker that our own union backed it. := :yuk:

[fire wall]

Sqwak, there are 22 freighter commands left to do.
Shame how the truth is nowhere near as sensational as your stories eh?

[treboryelk]

22 too many in my humble opinion! they should be pax slots.

[Loopdeloop]

Fire Wall

At the current rate of commands, that's probably about 2 years worth. Note no "tongue in cheek smiley".
It's unlikely there'll be any new pax commands in that time so we're looking at no "in seniority" commands for a long time.

[Frogman1484]

Sqwak7700, why are you so worried about our Union lying down, bending over and all the other ways you have described it. Having read some of your past., you have stated many times that you were going to resign from the Union.

Now that the vote has gone through, I hope you act on your threats and leave. That way we don't have to hear how your Union failed your little world.

Maybe after all of this , you should go and join EK where you will have no Union to join, no fees to pay and no Union to bash.

[LostinAirspace]

I don't think we're going to get the company changing their mind on these out of seniority commands but how about getting the aoa to pursue a similar deal to what was done with asl; ie 3 pax cmds for every ftr cmd on the 400. That way we'd get both lists moving. Sure some freighter cmds will get deferred but at the moment so are many pax commands and these guys have been waiting 10 years. It seems in these economic times that the ftr guys are being protected but the pax guys are being left out to dry. we should all share the pain.

[treboryelk]

before this economic slow-down and COS 08 my pax command should have come up at the end of this year. god knows when it is now. cant see one single reason why early freighter commands should take priority over pax commands other than it saves the company more money.

1 for 3, stuff that for a game of soldiers and thankfully the grumbles are being well voiced on the AOA site. we can live in hope.

[Penske]

Gee...... I can think of one. A notice to crew was issued with Freighter command positions available. Those interested submitted a bid, and the positions were awarded in seniority order. These are not "out of seniority" commands as you lot keep calling them.

Many of the successful applicants were put on hold while training courses were allocated to the DECs from Oasis, KA and god-knows-where else.

Now that there are training resouces available again, the company has chosen to honor the Freighter commands that were bid for and awarded by the original successful applicants. Simple really.

Your rants should be directed to the DEC fiasco, not the Freighter command issue.

[Loopdeloop]

OK Penske

Imagine for a moment that a NTC went out advertising pax commands (of course this doesn't need a NTC because you're assumed to have applied when you joined the company, but bear with me). The successful applicants (Cat A F/Os) were then allocated command courses in seniority order.
There are training resources available but these courses have now been cancelled.
The -400 courses can be filled by either type of applicant. Both types of F/O applied and were allocated courses in seniority order.
Taking the freighter applicants first is slightly cheaper for the company, but is it still right?

[Penske]

I have not kept up with the course allocations for Pax commands. IF there have been courses cancelled as opposed to just delayed, there is definitely an issue that should be addressed.

If the company wants to honour their commitments, it is only fair that ALL previously awarded commands go ahead - especially in light of the fact that the playing field had changed significantly with DECs and now COS08 since those officers bid their positions.

[sizematters]

so what happened to "we don't do upgrades or right to left on the -400 ??"

[LostinAirspace]

Penske, I agree that the guys bid for those freighter commands as per the ntc should eventually get them but by the same token 10 pax command courses were cancelled next month and a plethora of pcas' also cancelled. By suggesting alternating ftr/pax courses at least commands are moving for both albeit slowly.

Also I hope those guys taking the ftr cmds realise that they are going to be spending probably another 6 years on the ftr than they expected due to the slowdown in pax cmds. It's in everyone's interests to keep the pax seniority list moving.

1 Jul was the agreed date to move back to a seniority based airline but in practise this will take a few more years to achieve, i think

[freightdoggiedog]

As Penske points out these ftr slots were available to all, and in any case should have been finished and done with a long time ago. Instead the successful applicants have been penalized by well over a year's wait due to DECs. If the rules change in the meanwhile it should be for future cmd allocations, not past ones!

That said, I fully agree that if actual scheduled AND assigned pax courses have been cancelled as opposed to delayed (PCAs don't count guys, the officers waiting for those frt slots applied, PCAd and have been categorized since early last year :ouch:), then I agree there is an issue.

Even then, the question should be, "since the frt guys are having their courses honoured, we want the pax ones honoured as well" as opposed to "if you're going to cancel the pax ones then we want to take the ones previously assigned to other officers instead"!

LostinAirspace's suggestion of alternating courses would seem more fair, even if it would further delay the frt guys.

IMHO!

[SFGDOG]

At least there is some sugar for the FO's. From July, if my info is correct, about a 100 ex-pax Capts who extended on the freighter will start coming back onto the seniority list as the freighter contract ends and this will put the same number of FO's on BPP. No increments but still it is a decent payrise.:ok:

[Liam Gallagher]

Whilst acknowledging the "better late than never" argument. It is worth remembering that all the +55 year old Freighter Capts should have triggered BPP from 1 Jan 08, being the date the FACA ended. It is also worth noting that it will at least a year from the 1st July that all the extendees will be across on COS08.

That will give the company about 16 months to invent the next device to avoid paying BPP.... ho hum...

[stillalbatross]

If you look at the composition of the 744 fleet it is obvious that upgrades aren't needed on the pax fleet because they are taken care of by cheap commands on the freighter fleet. As the 744 comes off pax and goes freighter there is a cheap captain on the freighter fleet ready to fly it. The 744 proper captain does a 777 course and everything is taken care of.

Anyone who took a freighter command and a 50% pay cut to jump seniority and to show the company just how little we are prepared to work for will also obviously have their time to pax command and pax pay delayed. :ok:

We should be thankful to all involved in negotiations that that avenue has closed.

[Keelhaul]

So, does this mean that the DEFO program is extinct?

[Sleeve_of_Wizard]

We sure hope so.......!

[joejet]

Keelhau So, does this mean that the DEFO program is extinct?

In the past I was told that the DESO's had to interview for a DEFO position as they were not on the pilot seniority list. The DESO was a stepping-stone to the right seat that you had to earn through another selection process. Seniority integration of SO's is fairly recent at Cathay.

It is always interesting to hear someone bark that the only way to "pay your dues" is to follow in my footsteps.

If we REALLY want to make all things fair at Cathay, maybe the cabin crew should have their seniority integrated with the pilots (CoS09), I bet there are some with more flight time than the SO's who keep complaining about the bad cards they have been dealt. :ugh:

[Rook]

let me guess...A scale captain? Near or retired? ok.