Augment @ EK

[lowstandard]

We at "Fleet" have decided that you should concentrate on getting in your jammies and staying out of the way till your called upon for duty.

Please dont do things that would require you to think too much as it might wind you up before you get in the bunk. As well no cookies or chocolates before bunk time because you might have nightmares about things like having me as "head knob of trivial affairs".

Make sure you go pee-pee as well before so you dont wet the bed and also there are no monsters in the other bunks.

In fact just stay out of the whole process until you magically awake hours later feeling refreshed and happy.....

So much for commanders delegation of duties to the crew (FOM CH14, pg 11). Way to micro-manage from behind the desk.

"sink rate"

[fatbus]

But , the augment crew is to be ready for sleep and NOT to operate. So if there is a last min crew change they cant use them as operating crew. Ya stay out of the way but dont you dare sit in the cabin.

[Panther 88]

And remember, uniform standards-always ties on in public, no rolled up sleeves, hats on, gotta look professional, blah blah. But okay walking down the aisles looking like Papa Smurf with "Emirates Crew" emblazoned across the back. Now that's a professional look that any EK manager can be proud. Next edict for augmenting crew-No other attire, other than EKs professional, high quality jammies are to be worn. No golf pullovers, no jumpers, etc.

[Bandit FO]

...as per the FOM. (OM-A) starting in April 09.

[pool]

The augment policy is simply a "no respect for the employee" scheme. And deliberately so. Even the clowns down the road have 5 Y-seats where you can go out of the working crews way. And by that I mean the tech crew, galley operators, station personnel at the door, and even the passengers. We are simply in every one's way up there and distracting heavily. Even worse now that we are not allowed to help. But that's just a legal FCI, as to please the investigators. As augmenting crew we are to be invisible. Only when battling our way through 350 passengers, in a outfit merely suitable for the next gay parade, only then we are visible: "Just follow the queers with the cute nighty-night costumes, Osama, they'll lead you right up to the flight deck."

No respect for the employee is the subject.
It comes to no surprise that the treatment endured is given back by the victims. A recent experience as SLF (not recognised as crew) was very revelatory, the cabin crew were not rude, but simply robotic and absent minded, visibly fatigued and couldn't care less. Lots of flight deck operate in the same way, only to the book, robotic and quite inefficient. We lose a lot of money, unneccessarily, that way.

It is a human constant: We work the way we get treated. :yuk:

[ANFA]

and relax ladies!

The avalanche of FCI/FCNs, the grasping at straws by managers who have not moved an EK aircraft one solitary CENTIMETER, and the propaganda you are inundated with on a daily basis via the management-by-email portal, need to be taken in the context in which they are issued.

We all know that when it comes to our professional standards and sensibilities, the best person we can rely upon at EK is the professional pilot(s) sitting to the right/left/behind us in the pointy end of the high-speed aluminum tube.

Let them issue their random edicts, let them prattle on, let them show how totally impotent, craven, and completely out of touch they are. It is of no consequence.

Utilize your fellow crew members as you best see fit. Take care of each other, fly safely, and most of all, try and have some fun. We're flying jets (really big and cool looking ones at that). This is something the great un-winged masses hold in total respect, awe, and in the case of EK management, malignant envy.

I totally agree that we are dealing with individuals who either have lost the plot, or were never really worthy of their positions of authority and influence.

.....But.....

Be that as it may, we have only ourselves to rely upon. So don't let management drive even the tiniest of wedges between us.

In the words of Rufus: "BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER!"

Take care of the folks in back who put everything they have, or ever hope to have, in your skilled hands, and enjoy this ride for what it IS, not what it should/could be.

Stand Fast Gentlemen! I am proud to be in the ranks amongst you!

Semper Fi,
ANFA out..:ok:

[Panther 88]

All well and good Major, but when it comes to our upgrades and PPCs and line checks, we had best know every little FCI/FCN and change to the ever changing FOM or OM-whatever this week. Lest you will find yourself with several well known TREs that have memorized every dot and dishdash of said documents and will grade you accordingly. Here, as long as nothing gets dinged up, it's not how you fly, or conduct CRM, but how well you know (re. memorise) the books. Some (and I say just few) TREs seem to make up with "book" knowledge what they lack in real world experience. You know that. However in the real world, your post makes an outstanding point IMHO.

[White Knight]

Well hell Panther - if the TRIs and TREs can remember every little dash and dot then I'm sure you can!!

Or can't you? Don't you go to bed and read the FCOMs before turning the light out? Shame on you!!:}

[Panther 88]

What was I thinking when I wrote that. Of course I should be memorising all said documents. Actually, downroute is when I should always hit the books. I should be heating up my cup'o'noodles and studying every minute. But then I will probably be grounded due to high blood pressure. Can't win for losing.

[Fubaliera]

Can you guys post a picture of your official jammies

[Marcellus Wallace]

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/80000/80082.jpg

Looks something like this. :eek:

[fjordviking]

Are the gentlemen all excited about the new "manual insertion tool" they have been issued, to be used in the bunk before going to rest?:bored::\

[nakbin330]

Very well said.

[Khaosai]

Hi,

good to see in the picture they are wearing their hats !.

Rgds, Nakbin777

[oz in dxb]

Yep, so as an augmenter, you have to sit in the flight deck and get in the way of things, have a nap on the taxi and climb out, then go to the bunk, but you can't be used at all until it's your turn to come on duty.
FN bloody stupid!!!!!

I can now see why the augmenting guys on the MEL flight didn't get asked to leave as well.

[ruserious]

Come on this is a knee jerk to the MEL incident, someone (CASA or ATSB maybe) has identified that there is a rest plan authorised by the company and as such the company cannot BLAME the augmenting crew in MEL.

So now they Kneejerk and come out with another crap FCI

[Gulf News]

If the clowns had allowed the flight crew rest compartment to remain in its original location and configuration then the augmenting crew would be able to scurry away and read the paper without being in anyones way prior to departure. They could return to the flight deck once the operating Captain has given the go ahead to close doors.

Funny how simple ignorance leads to poor decisions that can cause repercussions down the line that managers just cannot see because they have no relevant experience in the field.:D

[radial090]

Was the letter from ED a FCI? If it was not it has no weight!

[Wiley]

I have to admit that the aft torpedo tube on the 777 is not ideal. If they (or TC) had stuck with the Boeing standard crew rest, the augmenting crew could be out of the way during the busy pre-flight and pre-start time, and even for the takeoff. (I understand the standard crew rest seats are certified for use during takeoff and landing.)

However, from what the Whale crews tell me, the 777's aft torpedo tube is loooxurry compared with the poorly sound insulated play pen they've been saddled with in the middle of the Whale's Economy cabin.

[nolimitholdem]

THREAD HIJACK!!!

Better call....THESE guys!

ummm...which ones are the terrorists again?!

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/9848/antiterrord.jpg

[GMDS]

Guys, the crew bunk should be placed behind the cockpit with two seats certified for TO + Ldg. This should be mandatory requirement by all regulators, no matter what aluminum it is berthed in.....

Anything else is NOT best practice (as not to say unsafe) - it's as simple as that!


The whole question turns around two factors:

a) How much of a distraction is the augmenting crew with it's presence in the cockpit

b) how much value is the augmenting crew in case of a emergency.


to a) In my view they are a distraction during normal ops on ground, especially with a somewhat assertive augmenting captain. It is imperative that the operating captain can have the cockpit to his team only and therefore some seats must be available for the augmenting crew.
If not, the company bears co-responsibility to more distraction in the flight preparation phase.

to b) my view is, that in any case of added workload, especially with emergencies inflight, the augmenting collegues are of immense value, remember the Sioux-City accident.
Stowing away this asset into the rear of the aircraft or another remote area, effectively making an access to the cockpit impossible in emergencies, is a deliberatly poor set up and very poor sop by the company. They would have to bear some responsibility if an emergency turns ugly and would have possibly been improved by assistance of able bodied additional pilots.

safe flights

GMDS

[Wiley]

Have you been tapping my phone, GMDS? I must agree with both your comments in toto.

[nolimitholdem]

Ummm...back to the drawing board (or Psych 101 textbooks). I don't think "inferiority complex" is the correct term you're looking for. I believe the complex derived from the need to fly a larger aircraft (and be defined by it) is called..."compensation".

Although a 380 is kind of a weird choice for this, an ugly, overweight beast that seems to have a hard time "performing" reliably hardly suggests virility...

I'm just sayin'...

[nolimitholdem]

heheh I'm only teasing as well...

but why even bring up the A350? Shouldn't the folks from To-Lose try and get one type that can get more than 100 metres from a stand before returning to pull breakers, before inflicting another one on us? I'm not sure either Engineering nor Accounting (not to mention the delayed pax) could stand that much excitement all at once!

I do think it's nice how they load at least one ton of fuel on the 380 for each of it's passengers. A nice touch, perhaps not completely cost-effective but quite prosaic.

But hey it's the BIGGEST! :ok:

Ed's arse covering, generalised, non specific, not really saying anything useless message?

You're going to have to narrow it down a bit. Which one?!

[Wiley]

I think maybe we should rename this thread 'Argument @ EK'.

Seriously gents, let's drop the Bus versus Boeing bull**** and stick with the topic. Anyone who doesn't admit that the 777 had major serviceabilty problems in its first months of service has a very selective memory or wasn't there. The 787 and the A350 will have similar teething problems, and, as with every other type new to service, the tireless engineers will get around them one way or another. The Whale seems to have overcome most of its problems and is becoming quite a hit with the (God, am I really using this 'newspeak' bull**** term?) 'customers'. Most love it, as well they should, when you consider ocean liner proportions of the aluminium that surrounds them when many have paid for little more than the equivalent of a ferry ride.

Back to the subject of the thread: I can't help but feel that if on an ULH flight, company policy forces two extra sets of eyes to be on the flight deck for takeoff and landing, it's patently silly to publish a missive to captains forbidding them from making use of those two extra sets of eyes.

Me myself personally, unless the augmenting captain and FO refuse to co-operate because they feel they must obey company instructions, will be saying those magic words 'non standard' and asking the augmenting crew, tired or not, to consider themselves part of the crew and to speak up loudly and clearly if either of them sees anything they feel isn't as it should be. I'll also offer to do the walkaround if I'm the 'B' captain. If the operating captain feels he can't take me up on that offer, I'll understand completely.

[Bandit FO]

What if the augmenting captain (or f/o for that matter) does the inspection and during taxi out a tyre goes flat? The engineer blames the crew. Tea and biccies for all involved!

[typhoonpilot]

Whale = Boeing 747

That has been the case for over 30 years.

An A380 should not be referred to as a whale, it's just confusing things and demeaning to a great airplane.

In regards to augmenting crew, I've never found them to be a distraction. Rather, a useful couple of guys who help with the workload during high workload times and who share ideas with the operating crew.



Typhoonpilot

[Khaosai]

Hi,

cant comment on the Airbus as never flown any of the types.

Regarding the augmenting crew, i think they are a valuable asset to be used, particularly for the walkround if its raining !.

It does not make sense to prevent an augmenting captain from doing a walkround, when in the FTL section of the FOM is says we can have a dispatch crew perform all pre flight duties. After that is done the operating crew board the aircraft and do the flight.

[Mister Warning]

And if the operating FO misses something on the walk-around, the Captain is also responsible.
What's the difference?

[Bandit FO]

The difference is the FCI that forbids using the augmenting crew.

[EK Snorkel]

1.4.4.3 Supervision and Co-ordination of Flight Duty

The Commander shall:

a. Co-ordinate and assign at his own discretion, duties to the various crew members with due regard to the composition of the actual crew and their licences.

b. Delegate at his discretion, but in a clear manner, part of his responsibilities on the ground and in the air to the authorised ground staff and/or his crew members.

e. The Commander may delegate duties to other staff members as required, within the limits placed upon him by the FOM and FCOM.



Straight from CP 380's mouth. eg, (from A Shab), "if the augmenting pilot does the walk around and misses something, then the operating captain is responsible."



Well the quoted guy above is definitely the one guy in EK who has no clue about aviation and operating aircraft. He has been a failure since he started flying ...or even before .... :ouch:

[max AB]

Bandit don't get too wound up, firstly it was not an FCI but an email and it does not forbit the use of Augmenting crew doing some duties. The email points out the risks of doing so and suggests it might be ill advised. As much as I hate to admit it the point is valid, however you can still delegate some functions to the second crew, just first consider which functions you choose.

[troff]

Doesn't FCOM have priority over everything except for a current FCI? Do memo's really count?
How can you not trust a guy to do a walk around when you will have to give up control to him at some point over the Indian or Atlantic ocean, the Himalayas or the North Pole?
What a feeling to be going back to your nest in your jammies thinking the guy you couldn't rely on to kick the tires now has the power to get really, really lost, to put the puppy on it's back, or worse.
And if he does mentioned things... it's your fault! :mad:!
Sweet dreams.
T

[Wiley]

... especially (on the 777) when the journey from the rest area back to the cockpit is about one and half times the distance of the Wright brothers' first flight(!). You are in fact, relatively close to the cockpit by the time you've stooped your way up in the roof half way back to the front.

Unfortunately, unless you want to quite literally drop onto the head of some hapless passenger - (sorry, 'customer'[!]) - you can only get to the cockpit by stooping all the way down the back first before running the gauntlet through 370+ passengers - all of them.