Atlantic Crossing & Ferry Flight Insurance

[Horst Schwul]

Bitte,

Rules and regulations for crossing the Atlantic. SEP(A). Routing Vagar, Reykjavik, Narsarsuaq (or Nuuk) to Goose and onward into the US to where the aircraft will reside.

Aeroplane is on the N register.

I am FAA CPL/IR.

Horst.
You know it.

[BackPacker]

Have you checked the AIPs for the different countries...?

Canada, Denmark (Greenland), Iceland, UK

Most, if not all, will be available from the Eurocontrol site. EUROCONTROL - The European AIS Database: Introduction to EAD Basic - Home (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int) Look for an application called PAMS light.

[Consol]

Check the rules bit of the Jepp ATL1/2 chart which you will need anyway. Some very useful data. Its not all about flight planning amd customs, make sure you have the survival stuff well covered. Greenland is a very lonely, cold place with limited comms and serious terrain.

[mm_flynn]

Probably the single most important thing is establishing an insurance strategy. Generally the US insurers don't insure out of North America and the European ones don't insure in the US.

Your insurer will probably require you have previous accompanied experience with the crossing (or a suitable briefing - and they will define what suitable is). Your companion or the briefing provider will provide insight into what needs to be done. But from a basic planning perspective there is nothing particularly complex.

Transport Canada apparently used to have a lot of rules on survival equipment - but this is broadly now left to your judgement for a private flight.

Note - the US has just recently introduced a requirement to electronically submit pilot and passenger details prior to departure for a flight into US airspace.

[Sam Rutherford]

Hi,

Did this flight about 6 months ago, I understand others had an epic with insurance, but I got cover with (at the time):

FAA piggyback ppl
Less than 150 hours fixed wing
80 hours tailwheel, 20 on type (Maule MX7)
no night, IR or, indeed, anything else:)

I paid a surcharge of Eur500 for the crossing! That was full risk. Try Finserve (www.finserve.be (http://www.finserve.be)) but you might need to tell them that you live in Belgium!

For the rest, in short:

Weather
Weather
I had no documentation check at any stage from Texas to Denmark!
Weather

It's a great experience, and it is way easier than you are expecting, Sam :)

The only caveat, if it goes wrong, it goes REALLY wrong :sad:

[echobeach]

At that stage of my flying I thought I had done rather well crossing the channel.
I have read your blog and I stand in respect.
This should be a real encouragement to all those wondering what to do post ppl. Few of us I suspect will do this crossing but I think some of that old aviation spirit of adventure exists in those who do.
EB.

[Sam Rutherford]

and after that, there's always the trans-Africa!!!

Sam.

[J.A.F.O.]

Blimey, Sam. With those hours I'd have just about crossed to the Isle of Wight.

I echo what liam, pace and echobeach said. :ok:

[Ultranomad]

An important source of information is North Atlantic Program Coordination Office (http://www.nat-pco.org/docs.htm).

[Sam Rutherford]

I only mention my fixed wing hours because that's all the insurance were interested in, but I had 1500 hours rotary at the time (although no licence).

So, a lot more experience than 250 hours!

That being said, the most 'difficult' bit is once you hit Europe. Until then:

Navigation is straight line
No comms
No airspace
No other traffic

etc. etc.

If you have the weather right, and your engine keeps running (!) then it is really quite simple (although it DEFINITELY doesn't feel like that at the time, and getting the 'the weather right' is not clear-cut!).

[debiassi]

Hi there, anyone had any dealing in obtaining ferry flight insurance for a north atlantic crossing. My own company require you to have made 5 crossings before they will consider it? seems Bazaar! They will insure the aircraft no problem once it lands but wont cover the ferry flight. I have an IR rating and the aircraft is certified FIKI so dont see any real issues but such is life. Any pointers will be welcome.

[BackPacker]

Sam gave some info on this thread here: http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/374310-atlantic-crossing-nicht-rod-stewart.html

You might want to contact him directly.

[gyrotyro]

I have just been in this situation. My ferry pilot had done the requisite number of 5 single engine crossings but they would not count a further 16 twin engined crossings and they would not insure if only Twin Crossings had been made. Bizarre again.

As someone else was taking the risk I was obliged to pay the premium and so I ended up paying 1000 euros for the ferry flight from Canada to the UK. The journey took three days.

If I was doing the trip myself I would not have bothered. If I crashed then I would more than likely have gone down with the ship and being single no one else to support.

[mm_flynn]

The only two things I have heard of being checked in Iceland is that you have an IR (if as most people do you go IFR) and that you have the SAR insurance which (when I did it) was mandatory.

All of the insurers I spoke with had pretty consistent policy that single engine crossings were a different experience than twins, hence only single engine crossings counted towards the experience requirement. I have read blogs from people who have gotten insurance after going through a training programme 'approved' by the insurer.

[spittingimage]

Be aware that Transport Canada is currently insisting (as per regs) on carriage of HF radio through Gander airspace unless you :

1) fly at FL250 or above;

2) avoid Gander airspace by routeing Sondrestrom-Iqaluit, for example;

3) fly VFR while oceanic below FL050, which, though legal, is not recommended.

VHF/Satfone is not enough.

Third-party insurance for a transatlantic trip is also mandatory.

[winguru]

Anyone doing on in the next times?

Im looking for a adventure like this, just flying to a nice isnt enough.

Will the insurance stop the idea of having one cpl has pic and one ppl safety pilot on board? :hmm:

[BoeingMEL]

Having done a few SE and ME crossings, I often wondered about the wisdom of carrying a dinghy. A few fellow ferry-drivers that I met in Iceland and Greenland decided against... because (they claimed) the chances of survival after ditching were near zero... even if you managed to inflate and get into the thing. Any ideas? Cheers bm.

[Duchess_Driver]

Always.

Remember reading somewhere that it's not just the cold that gets you, its how quickly you become cold (and wet).

And anyway, whats an extra few lbs between friends?

DD

[Sam Rutherford]

My concern about a dinghy is that getting it out of the aircraft is not going to be easy. But, if you have one, and get it out - you are much better placed.

The insurance is not interested in multiple pilots - they are only interested in the qualifications/experience of the PIC.

Good luck with finding a freebie trans-atlantic flight - join the queue!

If, though, you are prepared to pay a share of the costs then you might find someone who will want you along for the ride!

Safe flights, Sam.

[belowradar]

There are dingys and there are dingys and ditto survival suits

Be aware that your dinghy should be a North Atlantic dinghy with an insulated floor (to provide some protection from freezing cold sea) NOT YOUR RAFT FOR LE TOUQUET !

Also I have been advised that not all survival suits are the same so make sure you have an arctic survival suit.

Your odds on surviving a ditching will be a tad improved but still not great !

[spittingimage]

I always carry a dinghy transatlantic. Required kit by Transport Canada (at least) for starters. If you get ramp checked in Iqaluit (unlikely admittedly) where are you going to find one there ?

Bloody nuisance too; heavy, bulky and how do you get it back again across the Atlantic by scheduled with CO2 cartridges included ? Answer : you cannot, not legally anyway and the potential financial penalties if caught doing this are set at bankruptcy level IIRC.

When it comes to deployment will your raft work as advertised ? Indeed, will your fingers work at currently prevailing temperatures out there (I crossed last week) ? Having worked, will your raft be ripped from your grasp by a boisterous 40kt breeze and disappear inconveniently over the horizon ? Probably.

Yes, there are those that fly without rafts and some even fly without immersion suits too. But then if you have no suit you won't need a raft. And a suit not worn while flying oceanic is about as good as having no suit at all.

But I carry both and just hope that my crossings will be really boring from an operational point of view. So far, so boring ...

SI

[djhallux]

Hellow,
Im not shure about the requirements for that trip,
But i can recomend you a person with 65 years experience on ferrying.
Jim Hazelton,

+61265617205.

He will be the one to give you all the info that you need .

Cheers.

[A2B Ferry]

If you havent got sorted yet, try pik west insurance. They will cover it as a one off high risk policy. All the UK companies usually require at least 5 oceanic crossings before they will consider covering it. Remember you will need additional 25000 search and rescue cover for Iceland. I suggest reading the North Atlantic Ops manual. That will detail your requirements and you can download it for free. I guess some may class it as easy but if you get a bad forecast or arent really clued up on the weather systems then you could have a really bad day. The insurance companies require experience for good reason. We do these crossings on a regular basis so if you require any further free advice, please send me a pm. Also there is a requirement for HF radio which requires a 337 as a temporary install. Now generally going westbound it doesnt seem to be policed to the same degree as eastbound ferries. If routing further North where VHF coverage is assured for most of the route then HF is not a requirement. Without HF its not permissible to fly IFR through Gander controlled airspace and routing further north would be required unless you stayed below 5500ft and the chances of remaining in vmc would be slim, even in the summer.

[gyrotyro]

debiassi..

Your comment souks !

[A2B Ferry]

I made numerous, is there any in particular that your not happy with and I will attempt to validate it. Cant say fairer than that eh.

[AEST]

You guys might want to consider the Southern Route (Africa-Brazil)

Water temps are more amenable :), and guaranteed tailwind (10-20kts).

Drawbacks: No SARS and plenty of water. TCU.

[AdamFrisch]

Just a wild thought for those struggling to get insurance:

If you have a N-reg aircraft your insurance will cover North America. Now call an insurer in the UK, insure the aircraft in Europe as well. Canada is North America, Greenland is Europe. Now do the crossing. Cancel one of the policies after successful crossing.

Right?

[mm_flynn]

Just a wild thought for those struggling to get insurance:

If you have a N-reg aircraft your insurance will cover North America.

No, the reg has nothing to do with what the insurance covers. Your insurance covers what it says in the policy. If you insure in North America, your insurance will generally cover US, Canada, Caribbean, maybe Mexico - but almost certainly not Greenland.

If you insure in Europe the limits will almost certainly be Iceland to the West and roughly the Urals to the East.

So even if you have both policies the legs from Canada to Greenland and Greenland to Iceland are very likely to be excluded from coverage.

[AdamFrisch]

Well, the reg only in as much as it's impossible to insure a G-reg or any European reg in the US (I've tried - they don't touch anything but N-reg). The opposite however is not true.

Could you not snooker your European underwriter to include cover for Greenland?

[Sam Rutherford]

Definitely worth a try. First step would be to find the PRECISE point at which your US insurance stopped, and then get your EU cover to start at that exact point. Good luck!

Sam.

[Sam Rutherford]

Doing this again in June 2014, UK-Canada.

Got a spare seat...

sorry, easy way to answer the questions - flying on to OshKosh...

...then back at some stage (clearly!).

Cheers, Sam.